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Guild stores are flooded and no one is buying
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bertenburnyb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭only things worth putting on guild stores are maths or sought after end lvl set items.
I always laugh when I see people put crappy gear for thousands of g's on storesHaze Ramoran Dunmer Dragonknight Tank/Dps – Smoked-Da-Herb Saxheel Templar Tank/Healer
Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end (EU EP Thorn)0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alphashado wrote: »But all of this pales in comparison to what is absolutely controlling the market right now, and that is AP gear. This stuff is outlandishly overvalued because it's one of the only true gold sinks in the game.
AP gear is NOT a gold sink. A gold sink removes gold from the economy, i.e. it goes *poof* and nobody can use it. AP gear transfers gold from one player to another, increasing the amount available to AP farmers and driving the prices of highly-sought-after stuff UP (because big players have big gold and don't need to think twice about price comparisons).
That is a VERY good point. I only meant that AP gear is one of the only things there is for an established player to spend gold on besides kiosks and storage. The fact that AP gear is NOT a true gold sink just makes it worse.
In fact, what they should do is make AP gear BoP and sell it for gold from Cyrodiil vendors. Then you could buy it with either AP or gold and it would be a true gold sink. Make V14 pieces cost either 500k AP or 100k gold and be done with it.
Edited by Alphashado on May 9, 2015 3:01PM2 -
qsnoopyjr✭✭✭✭Like I said before,
Make it so when you die, your corpse becomes lootable to anyone.
Just like how Runescape does it.
This game has a lot of similarities with Runescape.
One of the major things is that, pretty much everyone runs around with crafted armor and weapons.
Another thing, too many people have too many mats, therefore currently they have no need to buy more mats. Hence if you make people have to remake all there armor and weapons because someone ninja looted there corpse... Than a shortage of supplies kicks in and supply and demand will meet and hence you have equilibrium and hence no more yapping about nobody buying anything or I have too much gold dunno what to do with it.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Like I said before,
Make it so when you die, your corpse becomes lootable to anyone.
Just like how Runescape does it.
I have played games like this, but not Runescape. I would pretty much move onto another game if this came to be in ESO.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
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Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus9 -
Arkadius✭✭✭✭✭
✭Like I said before,
Make it so when you die, your corpse becomes lootable to anyone.
Just like how Runescape does it.
This game has a lot of similarities with Runescape.
One of the major things is that, pretty much everyone runs around with crafted armor and weapons.
Another thing, too many people have too many mats, therefore currently they have no need to buy more mats. Hence if you make people have to remake all there armor and weapons because someone ninja looted there corpse... Than a shortage of supplies kicks in and supply and demand will meet and hence you have equilibrium and hence no more yapping about nobody buying anything or I have too much gold dunno what to do with it.
Lootable corpses would completely destroy the purpose of 'bind on pickup'. You want to give your bound equip to another player? Just let him loot your corpse. And if bop was generally removed (or replaced by boe), we had the same situation as before. Dead player buys/crafts new stuff, while looting player sells the stuff. No money sink here...0 -
qsnoopyjr✭✭✭✭Well thing is, once you get best gear you don't really upgrade... All those components just being hoarded by players.
You need to get players to start USING the components and not hoarding them.
Reason why nothing is selling is because everyone is being a HOARDER.
Another kind of fix would be evolving armor. Like the research system.
Goto blacksmith station evolve your armor/ make it better, requires crazy amount of this, crazy amount of that. You get 2% increase or whatever in whatever you chose. Wait 7 days, able to evolve your armor again. Same thing, but now wait 14 days. Up to 30 days.
Make it something silly like, 200 honing stones, 150 blue items, 50 purple items, 25 gold items.
Allow your armor to continuously evolve, so you could have the craziest armor.
By time it gets too powerful, a new expansion or something will happen.
You don't solve this hoarding problem by making gold sinks. You solve it by making people USE the items they are HOARDING.
I prefer the runescape example of your corpse becomes lootable, because that makes DEATH a BIG deal.
Puts fear factor and intense moments into the game. Game is too laid back, needs more intense and fearful moments.
I enjoy games where something bad happens and I literally YELL at the computer.
Get jumped by bunch of mobs, I'm caring a lot of really nice stuff, bunch of people watching me get pounded. I die... "FUUUUUUUCK!"
Game needs more of those moments rather than, I died, just respawn and act like no big deal.
That's how you know a game is good, when you actually care. If you just die and act like no big deal... That's not a quality of a good game.. Like Zelda games, do it different, you have to go through a long and rigorous course to get to the boss.. You die, it matters because you got to go through it all over again. Or in fighting games, you gotta win x times in a row. You die on 49th fight out of 50 in a row, it matters, A LOT. Everquest didn't have corpses lootable by all.. But you had to go back and get your corpse. Made death matter, especially in dangerous hard to get to spots.Edited by qsnoopyjr on May 9, 2015 4:05PM1 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ourorboros wrote: »As much as I love it, I blame Master Merchant. I have listed multiple recipes below the current price, only to have them be flagged in red as above average in a matter of days. Whether people are just skipping past red items or actively filtering them out, my sales have taken a big hit since MM arrived on the scene. As a buyer, I'm thrilled by this, but as a seller, it is making that aspect of the game frustrating.
Several of my guilds that usually have a vendor have also been outbid by deeper pockets that have no goods to sell. That is also frustrating.
However, certain items will sell very quickly for a good price. So part of this is knowing the market and putting the right items up for sale.
Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.Edited by LtCrunch on May 9, 2015 3:55PMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/163 -
neueregel✭✭✭I made 700,000g in the last two weeks alone... so someone is buying somethingAre you not entertained?
On my command, unleash hell!
What we do in life echoes in eternity1 -
QuadroTony✭✭✭✭✭Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
dada daedra and DD shopkeeper is total ***, sorry
they havent even a half of all features MM has
and all top traders using MM only
DD cant keep so much usefull info and so many sales data, and many more
also dd addons has alot of errorsEdited by QuadroTony on May 9, 2015 4:18PM1 -
maryriv✭✭✭✭QuadroTony wrote: »Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
dada daedra and DD shopkeeper is total ***, sorry
they havent even a half of all features MM has
and all top traders using MM only
DD cant keep so much usefull info and so many sales data, and many more
also dd addons has alot of errors
"all top traders"?
Your last sentence is just incoherent.
Both addons are useful, shopkeeper has features that MM doesn't.1 -
neueregel✭✭✭
I list my items about 10% below what Master Merchant states the price average is. I do this because A - I dont want my stuff to sit in the stores... that doesnt make me gold, and B - because just because my 5 guilds average says x, doesnt mean it is the actual average of other players guilds. Again, the point to put it in the guild store is to sell, not to see how high you can get for it... If you sell your items for 10x mine, but I make 10x more gold than you each week... who is making more gold....Are you not entertained?
On my command, unleash hell!
What we do in life echoes in eternity1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There are a number of FOTM build sets, rarer items, and other items that still sell very well, but it is true that the value of most things has decreased. It is caused my two things.
1. Basically, the true culprit is ZOS and their lack of content. New updates introduce new items and change old items resulting in the the value of items changing, forcing people to remake their gear, and making people spend a lot of gold testing gear and ideas. With no new content, most people have polished off their gear sets and have no more need to buy a lot of stuff.
2. MM/DD usage becoming more widespread making previously uninformed people more informed as to how the ESO economy works.Edited by timidobserver on May 9, 2015 4:41PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Not an unsurprising answer from someone called out on the Master Merchant web page.
The several-in-one structure of MM is a little strange, and that is the point.
Only the people charging more than him.
Seriously, you make sales by being the lowest price at the time of purchase. No one goes to buy something in a Kiosk and decides to buy the second or third cheapest one. This is how things work.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I had errors and crashes with DataDaedra, MM never did anything like that for me. It's possible it was something I should have fixed on my side, but I use what works. *shrug*Ourorboros wrote: »As much as I love it, I blame Master Merchant. I have listed multiple recipes below the current price, only to have them be flagged in red as above average in a matter of days. Whether people are just skipping past red items or actively filtering them out, my sales have taken a big hit since MM arrived on the scene. As a buyer, I'm thrilled by this, but as a seller, it is making that aspect of the game frustrating.
Several of my guilds that usually have a vendor have also been outbid by deeper pockets that have no goods to sell. That is also frustrating.
However, certain items will sell very quickly for a good price. So part of this is knowing the market and putting the right items up for sale.
Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.0 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Unsurprisingly the point went directly over your head.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/161 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭QuadroTony wrote: »Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
dada daedra and DD shopkeeper is total ***, sorry
they havent even a half of all features MM has
and all top traders using MM only
DD cant keep so much usefull info and so many sales data, and many more
also dd addons has alot of errors
Ya, something with identical features that executes them better is a terrible thing, huh? I'd much rather use a poorly coded/implemented version that is easily manipulated. Every time I see someone link M.M. pricing data I ignore it because it's too unreliable. Of course none of the pricing data from either add-on should ever be considered the end all pricing because they represent too small a sample size to be considered the "correct" pricing. I'm sure you'll attempt to argue this or that but I've derailed this thread's topic too much as it is and won't respond.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/161 -
hiyde✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordrichter wrote: »
Not an unsurprising answer from someone called out on the Master Merchant web page.
And I'm also someone who's repeatedly, publicly thanked Deome (and other addon developers) for THEIR addons.
@Hiyde GM/Founder - Bleakrock Barter Co (Trade Guild - PC/NA) | Blackbriar Barter Co (Trade Guild-PC/NA)1 -
Psychobunni✭✭✭✭✭
✭I prefer the runescape example of your corpse becomes lootable, because that makes DEATH a BIG deal.
.
Instead of people repeatedly citing an out of date F2P game as how things "should be", maybe take a poll to see how many players would quit ESO if it were possible to do that here.
Edit: and people are still arguing over addons and how its their fault instead of how those addons came to be in the first place...
If ZOS had simply told us what we sold and which guild we sold it from those addons would have never came to be, eventually a comparison might have come about but the root of it all is a crappy half arsed system
Edited by Psychobunni on May 9, 2015 5:41PMIf options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, let me try to come up with a better system than what we currently have without rocking the boat too much:
- Let there be ONE trader per zone, located in the main city, next to the wayshrine (for equal accessibility). If necessary, review the wayshrine's location, as some are very conveniently placed next to the bank (Rawl'kha) and others are even outside the city walls (Davon's Watch).
- Let each trader carry the goods of, say, 15 guilds. Guilds would still bid to get the trader to carry their goods. After the bidding is over, any remaining spots could be bought for a fixed sum from a single interface window, on a first-come-first-served basis.
- At each trader, either keep the current system at the bank (i.e. you can check each of your guild stores separately) or preferably lump all items from all winning guilds so that for the buyer only the trader matters, not the guild.
- I believe it's still important for people to know which guilds are represented at each trader, so the store could have a banner for each guild, with its tabard design, and on mouseover it would identify each guild.
- In the mail attaching the proceeds from the sale, identify the item, price, guild and trader/trader location involved.
There are 15 main zones, plus Craglorn and Coldharbour. This proposal would therefore support 17 x 15 = 255 guilds x 5000 = 1.275.000 potential different sellers (if no guild members overlapped). I think this would be quite enough, but the numbers could be tweaked at any time.
This would also make it more convenient to look for that elusive item you can't find anywhere, or to find the best deal, provided you can be bothered to visit 17 different locations. It's still better than visiting all of the current guild traders, which basically NOBODY does.
This would remove out-of-the-way guild traders which get little or no business and are currently mere oddities in the landscape, as well as reduce the existing disparity between trader locations (I'm looking at you, Belkarth, Wayrest and Rawl'kha).
Finally, it would alleviate the issues caused by the current bidding process, both because there would be more guilds at each location than now, and because it wouldn't matter so much to relocate to a different city.Edited by daemonios on May 9, 2015 6:51PM1 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »As much as I love it, I blame Master Merchant. I have listed multiple recipes below the current price, only to have them be flagged in red as above average in a matter of days. Whether people are just skipping past red items or actively filtering them out, my sales have taken a big hit since MM arrived on the scene. As a buyer, I'm thrilled by this, but as a seller, it is making that aspect of the game frustrating.
Several of my guilds that usually have a vendor have also been outbid by deeper pockets that have no goods to sell. That is also frustrating.
However, certain items will sell very quickly for a good price. So part of this is knowing the market and putting the right items up for sale.
Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
Not a single thing in your post is true. Master Merchant does use weighted averages, and has a toggle for filtering outlier prices from the results. It shows a scatter plot of the price history, and any text can be edited in a chat box anyway regardless of what addon you're using. Master Merchant scrapes data from ACTUAL SALES on the guild stores you're in, whereas datadaedra simply records what you see on kiosks including anything posted, regardless of one has ever even sold at that price, even if it's a market decoration priced at fifty times the usual price. Master Merchant is a tool you can use to better your already existing pricing methods, just as Excel is. Finally, had you read anything before clicking download and tossing the files into the game, it is explained and necessarily so that it is one addon, with extra light storage mule addons to hold the database you generate. This is a workaround to issues with how addons are allowed to store information with ESO's API, and has quite literally zero relevance as to whether it's "fishy", "unoptimized", or otherwise. How can you expect to hold a conversation about this kind of topic when you don't even have the facts or knowledge to form your opinion off of?-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
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pugyourself✭✭✭✭QuadroTony wrote: »Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
dada daedra and DD shopkeeper is total ***, sorry
they havent even a half of all features MM has
and all top traders using MM only
DD cant keep so much usefull info and so many sales data, and many more
also dd addons has alot of errors
I personally think MM is better. But it does have a flaw in that it provides average sales price rather than a price range.
For rare items, this has little effect because people will buy the item if it is within a range above or below the average sale, simply because they are happy to find said rare item and will pay a premium to have it in their possession now.
With commodity-type items, however(recipes, materials, green and white items, etc) the effect of MM is to drive prices gradually downward. Here's how:
Sale 1: 100
Avg Sale Price: 100
Now, if I list my item above 100, I'm going to get a negative white label or a red label. So for sale 2 we see this:
Sale 2: 96
Resulting Avg. Sale Price: 98
The third guy comes along and sees this and doesn't want a red label so he does the following:
Sale 3: 94
Resulting Avg. Sale Price: 96
This will occur until the price of commodity goods equals the vendor trash price or those commodity-type goods become more rare due to more players with current drop rates or a nerf to existing drop rates. But like I said, it's not going to effect rare items because people will pay a premium to possess them. Still, I do think this is a flaw with MM and I'd like to see a price range displayed to users instead of the average as well as labels (red, white, green) based on ranges instead of averages.Edited by pugyourself on May 10, 2015 1:09AM1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »
Everything is way to easy to get in this game, the economy is tanking.
I have spent 60 days played on my main, 20 days played on my alt. I think I have done 150+ goldpledges, and 150+ DSA runs.
I have wanted two items in this game for over 2 months now, and I play 12-14 hours a day. And those items are the masters bow and valkyn skoria shoulders. I still dont have any of those.
so NO everything is not way to easy to get in this game. I have never worked harder for loot in my whole gaming life.
For those who never have had to work hard for their gear:
Strength + agility ring drop in Molten Core in Vanilla WoW: for most guilds it dropped *twice* a year tops (with constant farming) and in WoW the loot was shared, that is you got dozens of guys bidding on one drop. We called it "Guild breaker" because I witnessed more than one medium core guild break apart upon the consequences of the litigations about that ring or some raid / guild leaders who would just ninja it and leave the guild.
So you think it's hard work to sit at a computer pushing buttons to earn virtual life achievements?
Grats on picking sentences out of context.
I was replying to someone complaining how hard it was to "earn virtual life achievements" in ESO, not as an absolute.
I see everybody else got it.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
In addition to Lord RIchter's comment above, I posted earlier about issues with Master Merchant and other add-ons. I NEVER set my starting price above what is recommended by MM. However, the market is so volatile, I often see my items become overpriced within a matter of days. If my guild missed getting a vendor, I can just about forget selling most items listed that week. By the time we get the vendor my once reasonable prices are higher than the market. I am actually taking this in consideration when I buy things now. If an item is red, and just listed, the seller is gouging, But if the item has been listed for more than a few days, it may have been fairly priced. I'll buy it if there is not a cheaper one listed.
This is why we need a global auction house.
It can actually be an argument the other way, in all honesty...lordrichter wrote: »I do feel that ZOS should add more demand on the gemstones for traits so their value goes up.
This is the first game I have played where precious gems have no value, including prior TES titles.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
Not necessarily true.
MM is not an absolute. There is considerable variation and what is high for you might be higher or lower for someone else.
I sell stuff over my MM average price all the time.
This is why we need a global auction house. The only way to get a fair price is to have all items available to everyone at the same time without having to run all over the map. Then MM will show us the average sale price of all items of the same type. Not just the sale of the at most 2500 people it can currently track per account.
That would actually make it worse. Currently MM is constantly downtrending everything because the social condition is to always price lower than listed to "sell first"
As that occurs, over and over, everything devalues to the point of hilarity. Or have you not seen the downtrend in say... v1 warlock signets this month alone? They went from 9k to 4k. Not because the sales volume increased, it has remained relatively steady, but because player greed for a quick sale drove the average down, making the next guy drop his, and the next, and the next.
I challenge you to find any single chart on MM in the game right now (besides columbine and tempering alloys) that has INCREASED in value over the last month.
According to mine, you wont find one, as everything is deflating.
This is how economies work. Once the market has enough items of a certain type the price comes down. It happens all the time with new technology. DVD players used to cost hundreds of dollars, you can now get one for $40. The deflating is a natural process.
All the advocates realize this while all the adversaries are scared they will no longer be able to extort people.
My margins on goods are already razor thin. Extortion? More like charity. My time crafting food and potions would be better spent just not doing it anymore.
For real, try going into purple food or tripotion business sometime and tell me how much money you make (youre not allowed to farm mats, you must buy them at market price and use that to create your margin, no cheating)
You will actually lose money, the amount of time required to make money as a crafter now is offset by the fact you can actually make more money just grinding mobs mindlessly in a delve somewhere because of the price normalization MM has caused.
Because I deal in consumables, the market should never end or stay relatively static. It has not done this. Pricing margins have gotten to the point now where potion sellers actually lose money because competition has driven the average selling price down UNDER the cost of materials needed.
The only way around it would be to spend several hours farming the mats to make potions at pure profit, but the pure profit over time is not as much as simply grinding junk loot to sell at a vendor.
Its stupid.
Some math.
Current average price for a tripotion is about 135/unit. They are crafted in sets of 4, for a materials max cost of 540. This means to turn a profit, the total cost of 1 bugloss, 1 mountain flower, 1 columbine, and 1 cloud mist has to be under 540 gold.
I can tell you right now just the columbine (240) bugloss (150), and mountain flower (90) leaves barely any wiggle room for profit as it is. 480 in costs already and we havent even added in the water, which by the way does run about 20-30g/unit. So the profit margin on purchased mats vs final product yields a button press margin of far less than 5 percent, despite it taking time to collect/craft/list product, pay the guild store tax, and so on.
And youll never sell that stack of potions for more because MM makes it impossible to turn a profit on the sale, youre "extorting" the market if you dare go over the listed 135/unit. Try to sell it any higher and it simply will not move. Youre literally forced to eat costs. You lose money in the long run.
Again, you could farm the mats yourself, but with all time spent on that, youd make more money just grinding zombies in alikr desert
That's how every game with a realistic and mature economy works. Markets self optimize over time, even the introduction of Master Merchant is a market optimization, that is a demand (for it) created the offer (the add on itself).
Play EvE Online or other mature and realistic economy games and you'll see it's all the same: markets self optimize by reducing spreads between bid and ask.
After all it's how markets work in real life too: current bid for the EUR/USD currency pair is: bid: 1.1198, ask is 1.2. That is the difference is just 0.08 and the broker is artificially inflating this value (because that's how they get paid).
Basically, in a normal economy, price of goods is materials cost + manufacturing cost + your own fee.
But in games, all of 3 is basically zero. The only "saving grace" is that games usually place some artificial floor to avoid that materials get sold for zero.
End results: you get paid for material cost (bare cost) + 0 + 0.
Only way to change that - in other games - is to have those super-rare recipes where just 1-2 guys per server can make an item. I was one of them in WoW as I had the eldest and rarest recipes very popular for twinks. That was the only real "profitable crafter market".
In ESO it's even worse. Truly everyone is an one man army, including complete self sufficiency at self crafting everything. Therefore you'll get no rewards for doing something everyone can do.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
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✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
In addition to Lord RIchter's comment above, I posted earlier about issues with Master Merchant and other add-ons. I NEVER set my starting price above what is recommended by MM. However, the market is so volatile, I often see my items become overpriced within a matter of days. If my guild missed getting a vendor, I can just about forget selling most items listed that week. By the time we get the vendor my once reasonable prices are higher than the market. I am actually taking this in consideration when I buy things now. If an item is red, and just listed, the seller is gouging, But if the item has been listed for more than a few days, it may have been fairly priced. I'll buy it if there is not a cheaper one listed.
This is why we need a global auction house.
It can actually be an argument the other way, in all honesty...lordrichter wrote: »I do feel that ZOS should add more demand on the gemstones for traits so their value goes up.
This is the first game I have played where precious gems have no value, including prior TES titles.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
Not necessarily true.
MM is not an absolute. There is considerable variation and what is high for you might be higher or lower for someone else.
I sell stuff over my MM average price all the time.
This is why we need a global auction house. The only way to get a fair price is to have all items available to everyone at the same time without having to run all over the map. Then MM will show us the average sale price of all items of the same type. Not just the sale of the at most 2500 people it can currently track per account.
That would actually make it worse. Currently MM is constantly downtrending everything because the social condition is to always price lower than listed to "sell first"
As that occurs, over and over, everything devalues to the point of hilarity. Or have you not seen the downtrend in say... v1 warlock signets this month alone? They went from 9k to 4k. Not because the sales volume increased, it has remained relatively steady, but because player greed for a quick sale drove the average down, making the next guy drop his, and the next, and the next.
I challenge you to find any single chart on MM in the game right now (besides columbine and tempering alloys) that has INCREASED in value over the last month.
According to mine, you wont find one, as everything is deflating.
This is how economies work. Once the market has enough items of a certain type the price comes down. It happens all the time with new technology. DVD players used to cost hundreds of dollars, you can now get one for $40. The deflating is a natural process.
All the advocates realize this while all the adversaries are scared they will no longer be able to extort people.
My margins on goods are already razor thin. Extortion? More like charity. My time crafting food and potions would be better spent just not doing it anymore.
For real, try going into purple food or tripotion business sometime and tell me how much money you make (youre not allowed to farm mats, you must buy them at market price and use that to create your margin, no cheating)
You will actually lose money, the amount of time required to make money as a crafter now is offset by the fact you can actually make more money just grinding mobs mindlessly in a delve somewhere because of the price normalization MM has caused.
Because I deal in consumables, the market should never end or stay relatively static. It has not done this. Pricing margins have gotten to the point now where potion sellers actually lose money because competition has driven the average selling price down UNDER the cost of materials needed.
The only way around it would be to spend several hours farming the mats to make potions at pure profit, but the pure profit over time is not as much as simply grinding junk loot to sell at a vendor.
Its stupid.
Some math.
Current average price for a tripotion is about 135/unit. They are crafted in sets of 4, for a materials max cost of 540. This means to turn a profit, the total cost of 1 bugloss, 1 mountain flower, 1 columbine, and 1 cloud mist has to be under 540 gold.
I can tell you right now just the columbine (240) bugloss (150), and mountain flower (90) leaves barely any wiggle room for profit as it is. 480 in costs already and we havent even added in the water, which by the way does run about 20-30g/unit. So the profit margin on purchased mats vs final product yields a button press margin of far less than 5 percent, despite it taking time to collect/craft/list product, pay the guild store tax, and so on.
And youll never sell that stack of potions for more because MM makes it impossible to turn a profit on the sale, youre "extorting" the market if you dare go over the listed 135/unit. Try to sell it any higher and it simply will not move. Youre literally forced to eat costs. You lose money in the long run.
Again, you could farm the mats yourself, but with all time spent on that, youd make more money just grinding zombies in alikr desert
First, no one is forcing you to sell consumables. Second, farming the mats is the only way to make it profitable. If you want to be a crafter then you have to spend your in game time doing that. It's no different than anything else in game. If you want the best gear you have to spend hours and hours and hours PVP'n and running dungeons and trials. There is no such thing as a casual crafter if you want to make money at it. If you want to craft for profit then you have to be a crafter. I don't like the idea of actively obtain in crafting materials. SWG had a much better crafting system.
For the record, SWG is the only game I've played that's done crafting right. All others pale in comparison.
On your last sentence, there is literally nothing I can do but wholeheartedly agree -.-
Back on the topic at hand, I am well aware of the time investment, however in this particular game, the lack of valued goods is so thin.... as in, there are very few things people even buy in the first place, that to even have a market at all you gotta pick your spot.
Mine was craftable consumables, and it did quite well until the last couple of months when these addons became so commonplace. You can tell now that everyone is using them because prices dont fluctuate kiosk to kiosk. There is no sense of "what person X thinks its worth to them". Its all fixed pricing, which destroys the spirit of a player driven economy. At this point zenimax might as well just be selling every drop item at some arbitrary rate, because the guild stores are no different.
As more markets close, fewer crafters will exist. Personal crafting increases, everyone is self reliant, no one needs a market anymore. This games economy truly dies. Not hyperbole, not just speculation, it is literally the trend.
MM implemented the oh-so-sought-after global auction house.
Those like me asking to never implement it, knew how it'd end up. And here we go, now we effectively have instant price information and therefore everything is level now. That's exactly the effect a global auction house does and now we got it.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO3
