Why I don't want Nirnhoned Fixed

Maulkin · May 2015

double post

Pixysticks · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

That won't happen as you imagine it. By design magicka melee abilities are not dodgable while stamina ones are.

For example Ambush (considered melee by the game, procs Redguard Adrenaline Rush) is dodgeable, unmorphed as Teleport Strike it's not dodgeable.

Concealed Weapon is not dodgeable, Suprise Attack is dodgeable.

Every melee weapon skill is dodgeable. Every magicka melee skill is not

By same design as Concealed Weapon, if there was a stamina morph of Whip it would be dodgeable.

Since it's consistent, I'd guess that developers see it as a boost for magicka melee to counter stamina roll dodge spam.

That is definitely true, but I assume DKs would be fine with the fact it could be dodged as long as they're given the choice to have stam class abilities. I think every class wants the choice to be able to go stam or magicka and be as effective as the other. Sadly for some classes they have no choice but to go magicka because they have 0 class abilities that synergize well enough to do so. It's just important not to nerf their only viable spec, because then the class becomes useless and they reroll to one that is, creating an endless cycle of fotm.

MaximillianDiE · May 2015

I didn't think Major Sorcery and Empower stacked - am I wrong?

glak · May 2015

We need a wrothgar physical resistance trait just as broken as nirnhoned

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

Pixysticks wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

That won't happen as you imagine it. By design magicka melee abilities are not dodgable while stamina ones are.

For example Ambush (considered melee by the game, procs Redguard Adrenaline Rush) is dodgeable, unmorphed as Teleport Strike it's not dodgeable.

Concealed Weapon is not dodgeable, Suprise Attack is dodgeable.

Every melee weapon skill is dodgeable. Every magicka melee skill is not

By same design as Concealed Weapon, if there was a stamina morph of Whip it would be dodgeable.

Since it's consistent, I'd guess that developers see it as a boost for magicka melee to counter stamina roll dodge spam.

That is definitely true, but I assume DKs would be fine with the fact it could be dodged as long as they're given the choice to have stam class abilities. I think every class wants the choice to be able to go stam or magicka and be as effective as the other. Sadly for some classes they have no choice but to go magicka because they have 0 class abilities that synergize well enough to do so. It's just important not to nerf their only viable spec, because then the class becomes useless and they reroll to one that is, creating an endless cycle of fotm.

As much as I would prefer it not be dodge-able (seriously, who wouldn't prefer that?), I'd just take the option of one at this point. It could be the version that causes Ardent Flame abilities to do more damage and synergize with the stamina morphs of Searing Strike and Fiery Breath (and might cause people to actually take the Flames of Oblivion morph to Inferno instead of just using Evil Hunter).

In a meta where burst is key and purge is king, having our class stamina morphs all be DoT effects ruins their usefulness in PVP. The only non-Ulti class abilities I use currently are self buffs and defensive skills.

Oughash · May 2015

Softcap regen at 1500

DMG softcap at 2k

Increase HP ratios back to 1.5:1:1

Fix nirn to be +24% on the item. Leave reinforced as is.

Reintroduce dynamic ult generation.

Done.

frozywozy · May 2015

Huntler wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

You and I fundamentally disagree on the solution to dodge roll spam. Dodge roll is very important in this game, it is a fundamental mechanic necessary, especially for players not zerging. You add more CC that works through dodge, good players won't be able to compete, just as the zerg does already with CC spam, theyll spam these dodge ignoring CCs because thats all you need to do in a zerg, spam your 1 most effective button. Dodge is a counter towards CCs... youre asking to remove a counter to CC basically, that isn't the solution.

Dodge roll plays a significant role (heh) in this game, the problem isn't a good player using dodge once to counteract an enemy incoming meteor or whatever, the problem is being able to spam it to mitigate all damage... remove the ability to spam it and you're done.

KISS. Keep it simple stupid. These other solutions have far more drastic consequences. Since ESO is against cooldowns, its simple. Give it the bolt escape treatment and be done with it. Dodge roll is my only option as a templar healer to avoid instant gibbing trouble from a variety of sources... and you want to put a CC in that people can spam. I'll say again. Zergs tend to spam 1 button. Usually their most effective CC. AOE root spam, charge (also a root), etc. No thanks for CCs that go through root, that will just be the new thing to spam. For someone who complains about the zerg so much I assume you understand that principal.

The problem here is not the cc going through dodge rolling. It is the lack of dimishing returns for every categories of disables such as fears, stuns, roots, disorients, silences, off balances.

Pixysticks wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

with 1700 spell dmg, molten whip isn't enough to deal with a nightblade spamming dodge roll + rally. Plus, the nightblade can gets gear bonus to increase his run speed forcing you to use a gap closer to reach him and making it even harder to deal consistent damage as the nightblade keeps dodge rolling + cloaking at super speed abusing obstacles and LoS.

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

Ali actually told me the one thing he really can't deal with is magicka DKs holding block and spamming him with whip. If you were talking about trying to stop a NB from running, well you can't really, no one really can if they want to desperately run, same goes for a sorc who really wants to run.

But yeah, if I wasn't specced to do any damage and had 1700 spell damage, I wouldn't able to be kill anyone really, let alone someone spamming roll dodge, so that would be part of the problem.

All Saber ali must do and he did it several times to me in the past (I even whispered him saying that I would never try to kill him again) :

1) Fear
2) Dodge roll / cloak / rally until Fear immunity is over
Repeat 1) and 2) until said player is out of stamina
3) Fear
4) Soul Harvest
5) Surprise attack

ggwp

The reason why a cc through dodge rolling or any nerf to dodge rolling is required.

Wait, this thread is about nirnhoded, not dodge rolling. >.<

k2blader · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It's not any one particular trait or thing that's causing the balance issues, unfortunately.

It's nice to point to Nirnhoned as a culprit, but Vort has a major point -- We don't need MORE burst in this game. At all.

The burst that's in this game needs to be vastly reduced. Fights are too quick and globaling by a single player is getting more and more common. Player damage, across the board, either needs to be cut or have some hard caps imposed.

TTK/TTL was already low in this game, and it's getting to CS levels of bad.

Frankly, if I wanted a TTL this low, I'd be playing 'one hit kill slappers only' in Goldeneye with shots for kills/deaths. Then it'd at least be amusing.

We shouldn't be looking at the freaking lowbie campaign as a better example of TTL/TTK. There the fights have tactics that you actually have to use to win against other opponents of equal skill. None of this instagib business.

Nirn should be fixed, among kajillions of other things. But I agree fights shouldn't be about who can 1 or 2-shot whom first. At the same time there does need to be a sense of balance with regards to ranged/melee, DPS/survivability, physical/magic damage, stamina/magicka usage, etc. That part is the real mess that I don't think Zeni's up for; I don't think most players are up for real balance either looking at what people cry about on the forums.

ToRelax · May 2015

Hey, the suggestions made here about some commonly spammed skills largely fail the point imo...
Dodge rolling was fine in 1.5, right?
What changed? You got practically infinite resources without softcaps and a whole lot of reduction, so you can spam it indefinitely or close enough. And that goes for every skill in this game besides very few. Like all ults obviously, and Bolt Escape, siege shield, cleanse, caltrops, to an extend.
You really don't want to try to balance the game increasing one fotm skill's cost after another, it would just force players into regen build more and more. Instead, reduce the efficiency at wich you can stack cost reduction and regen.

Xsorus · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

This, I've always ran a Stamina DK, but having played my NB..there is absolutely zero reason for me to do Stamina DK in comparison...Nightblade is just better

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

This, I've always ran a Stamina DK, but having played my NB..there is absolutely zero reason for me to do Stamina DK in comparison...Nightblade is just better

Yup. My NB alt I've been working on, at 48, already handles the stamina build quite well (after swapping him over from being a sap tank). And he's got escapes, which is a key missing component. When even dodge rolling isn't enough to get way (or the bar's depleted) I can still cloak and hide.

If I misjudge on my DK and enter a fight I can't win, I'm in until I'm dead.

As it is, and as I've mentioned before, ZOS did the playerbase a disservice by waiting to do a full balance pass on 1.6 until after the console drop due to how far away it is. They badly needed to double check their math in the live environment and, frankly, got it wrong.

Cody · May 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Here's an illustration for you.

tiger spams fear and wrecking blow

Rayste · May 2015

I would rather nirnhoned be left in the game as is. I am not saying it is not bugged or should not be changed.

I main a sorcerer and find that the added survivability is nice especially when soloing resources. I also roll vamp so I can really feel the difference when the spell resist drops off. The lack of damage against similar opponents I can deal with.

I know my buddy Ezareth disagrees, but I certainly would not mind if it stays as is.

Ezareth · May 2015

Ariak wrote: »

I would rather nirnhoned be left in the game as is. I am not saying it is not bugged or should not be changed.

I main a sorcerer and find that the added survivability is nice especially when soloing resources. I also roll vamp so I can really feel the difference when the spell resist drops off. The lack of damage against similar opponents I can deal with.

I know my buddy Ezareth disagrees, but I certainly would not mind if it stays as is.

Hey I'm hoping to get a chance to experience the OP that Nirnhoned is on my NB as well before it is nerfed and he also (currently) happens to be a Vampire.

My disagreement with Nirnhoned however was believe it or not, not made in my interests but in the interests of balance.

Personally, as a min/max player, I'm always going to do what is best to the best of my ability. I recognize that I have zero power over what changes in this game so the only thing I can do is maximize my effectiveness by any means possible (short of using exploits).

My presence on these forums really isn't aimed at trying to "stop my class from getting nerfed etc as people seem to think". I'm playing a NB right now because they're the most powerful class and I'm using every single thing at my exposal to take advantage of that. You're not going to find me switching my stances on things because I'm wrecking face on my NB. If I think something is too strong, no matter what it is, I'll say so whether it hurts me or not. I want balance in the game just as much as (most) anyone else.

Rayste · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Ariak wrote: »

I would rather nirnhoned be left in the game as is. I am not saying it is not bugged or should not be changed.

I main a sorcerer and find that the added survivability is nice especially when soloing resources. I also roll vamp so I can really feel the difference when the spell resist drops off. The lack of damage against similar opponents I can deal with.

I know my buddy Ezareth disagrees, but I certainly would not mind if it stays as is.

Hey I'm hoping to get a chance to experience the OP that Nirnhoned is on my NB as well before it is nerfed and he also (currently) happens to be a Vampire.

My disagreement with Nirnhoned however was believe it or not, not made in my interests but in the interests of balance.

Personally, as a min/max player, I'm always going to do what is best to the best of my ability. I recognize that I have zero power over what changes in this game so the only thing I can do is maximize my effectiveness by any means possible (short of using exploits).

My presence on these forums really isn't aimed at trying to "stop my class from getting nerfed etc as people seem to think". I'm playing a NB right now because they're the most powerful class and I'm using every single thing at my exposal to take advantage of that. You're not going to find me switching my stances on things because I'm wrecking face on my NB. If I think something is too strong, no matter what it is, I'll say so whether it hurts me or not. I want balance in the game just as much as (most) anyone else.

If you read between the lines of my post, you will see I am almost neutral on the nirnhoned change. I realize I said I do not want it changed because TTK in this game is already very low.... if they do change it, so be it, I will adapt and overcome.

vortexman11 · May 2015

I was reading a few comments from Pixysticks on some other posts and they gave me a new idea for this thread, lets see if you all like it.

Basically Pixy pointed out how easily he can get to around 20,000 spell penetration by running full divines with the Apprentice, at least 5 light for the armour passive, and with the sharpened traits, and I believe he also mentioned the destro passive.

Now lets look at some things, the current hard cap on mitigation that you can get from Spell/Physical Resist is 50% which is achieved at 32,000 Resist more or less (I don't want to look it up right now). Now, normally if you could penetrate 20,000 of that 32,000 resist, everything would be fine, but the problem is people can stack above the 32,000 in order to basically negate penetration. So would a soft cap on the amount of Phys/Spell Resist you can stack not help with this issue?

I know the issue is TTK, but I just wanted to go back to talking about nirnhoned for a second.

Lava_Croft · May 2015

Not fixing Nirnhoned is a problem because it's hard enough to do proper Magic damage as a non-Sorcerer.
Fixing Nirnhoned is a problem because it will make Sorcerers even stronger than they already are.

If I was ZOS, I would only fix Nirnhoned together with a slew of balance changes.I already kind of gave up on actual bug fixes, since all ZOS seems to do is patch patches with more patches that require patching.

Pixysticks · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

I was reading a few comments from Pixysticks on some other posts and they gave me a new idea for this thread, lets see if you all like it.

Basically Pixy pointed out how easily he can get to around 20,000 spell penetration by running full divines with the Apprentice, at least 5 light for the armour passive, and with the sharpened traits, and I believe he also mentioned the destro passive.

Now lets look at some things, the current hard cap on mitigation that you can get from Spell/Physical Resist is 50% which is achieved at 32,000 Resist more or less (I don't want to look it up right now). Now, normally if you could penetrate 20,000 of that 32,000 resist, everything would be fine, but the problem is people can stack above the 32,000 in order to basically negate penetration. So would a soft cap on the amount of Phys/Spell Resist you can stack not help with this issue?

I know the issue is TTK, but I just wanted to go back to talking about nirnhoned for a second.

Yes, except I don't use the destro passive, I dual wield.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Not fixing Nirnhoned is a problem because it's hard enough to do proper Magic damage as a non-Sorcerer.
Fixing Nirnhoned is a problem because it will make Sorcerers even stronger than they already are.

If I was ZOS, I would only fix Nirnhoned together with a slew of balance changes.[/size]

That's why I said you have to nerf Sorc multipliers a bit simultaneously with the nirn nerf. They could just take away the 20% damage buff on an instant crystal frag proc, that would relieve a lot of damage.