Why I don't want Nirnhoned Fixed

MormondPayne_EP

jpalm1995 wrote: »

Sorcs are going to be god-mode once nirnhoned gets fixed. ZOS should leave it as is. I'm still getting hit for 10k frags wearing 3 pieces of nirnhoned. I'm not a fan of nerfing a specific class but if they nerf nirn than sorcs need to be nerfed with it.

Oh my god, just stop...

Do you know what I have to do in order to get my Crystal Frags to hit for ~15k+ damage?

1) Precast mages guild ability for Might of the guild bonues
2) Proc Crystal Frags empower bonues
3) Stack magic damage which sacrifices a huge amount of survivability
4) Hope I score a CRITICAL hit
5) Hope the target is not blocking
6) Hope that the target is not endlessly dodge rolling

Most of the time, if one of the above 7 conditions not met you'll end up getting hit for MAYBE 8-10k damage, even less if you are holding block.

If the target has Nirnhorned, then reduce the damage again.

And yet, I'll get 1 shotted by a wrecking blow doing 21k damage after being feared from stealth which I cannot break out of with full stamina.

Your crocodile tears are not impressing me.

**Edit - I forgot to mention Dual Wield in order to increase spell damage** -In other words, EFF your nirnhorn.

Teargrants

Lava_Croft

Fixing Nirnhoned is a great thing, since it will only make the Sorcerer's status in Cyrodiil more apparent.

Agrippa_Invisus

Teargrants wrote: »

I hit 48.9K the other night with the build I was playing around with. I got hit by a Crystal Frags by Prett.

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Meanwhile, in my 5 piece heavy (reinforced on the large pieces) I still get hit for 17K with a dragon leap or 15K with a snipe.

Xeven

Teargrants wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I hit 48.9K the other night with the build I was playing around with. I got hit by a Crystal Frags by Prett.

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Meanwhile, in my 5 piece heavy (reinforced on the large pieces) I still get hit for 17K with a dragon leap or 15K with a snipe.

These are awesome posts that paint a clear picture of the problem. Leaving sh** this broken until you have time to make a full balance pass is just straight up disrespectful, and careless. Make a few keystrokes FFS and tone it's current functionality down a bit until you have time to do it right!

vortexman11

Teargrants wrote: »

I say that pics fake, wheres your 5k magicka regen?

Teargrants

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Here's an illustration for you.

Pixysticks

Teargrants wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Here's an illustration for you.

ROFL

Forestd16b14_ESO

Nirnhoned just needs removed period both weapon and armor there was really no point in adding it in the game to begin with. If not remove then nerf it cause it's white level gives a 12% spell res/pen. You get 12% traits from purple level on the other weapons so why should white nirnhoned be as powerful as purple leveled gear and just straight up OP at gold? Either remove it or nerf it those are really the only 2 options I personaly see that can fix it.

Xsorus

jpalm1995 wrote: »

Sorcs are going to be god-mode once nirnhoned gets fixed. ZOS should leave it as is. I'm still getting hit for 10k frags wearing 3 pieces of nirnhoned. I'm not a fan of nerfing a specific class but if they nerf nirn than sorcs need to be nerfed with it.

Going to be?

CN_Daniel

The problem isn't nirn, it's that there's not an armor equivalent.

Make reinforced work like nirn, there, balance done.

CN_Daniel

And MAKE MY NIRN STAFF WORK AGAIN.

Jeez... I spent like 40k on that thing and you nerfed it to gggggggggabag

Joy_Division

Huntler wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Your suggestion has merit but the designers clearly wanted Spell Resist / Spell Penetration to be a common mechanic and not copy this with physical damage / resist. They wanted spell and physical to have some different mechanics and counterplay so I don't see them throwing their hands up in the air and abandoning this idea to solve the nirn "problem". I really dislike the idea that one armor trait is so much better than all the others that it becomes the only choice. On top of this, I have no problem adjusting my build and my game style to your build, the 5 skills you choose to put on a bar, your weapon choice, etc.. But I should not have to completely reorient my build because of a few armor traits that you can just slap on with little opportunity cost.

What the hell are you talking about? Where or in what world did they want spell resist/spell pen to be different from the physical counterpart? They use the EXACT same formulas, hardcaps, etc..... Since its so obvious I would love you to cite a source on that.

So I ask again... what the hell are you talking about?

I am not being facistious or insulting here. I find that your posts are often insightful and it is clear you have a very good understanding of the game. But how can you not see this? Is it that incredulous of a notion that you have to reply to me as if I am talking about a different game?

I know they use the same formulas and hardcaps. That does not mean ESO's gameplay teats them the same.

Think about it, there are many more options for a player to counter magic/spells than physical stamina attacks.

• The light armor skill harness magicka completely absorbs X amount of spell damage and it useless Vs. physical attacks. The heavy armor comparable, immovable, does not make such a distinction and provides a generic increase to armor and spell resistance.
• Now look at the light armor skill tree - there are passives devoted entirely to spell resistance and spell penetration. Whereas the heavy armor tree offers a generic increase to physical and spell resistance while offering no passive to bypass armor. It should be noted that the medium armor passives, the line devoted to weapon damage dealers, also offers no physical penetration bonus.
• If you look at the weapon passives, all of them have generic X increase to damage or some bonus to some specific situation, such as distance (bows) or vs. CCed target (dual wield). The destruction staff offers a specific passive that increases it spell penetration without offering a similar generic damage increase.
• The is a specific Mundas stone devoted to spell penetration whereas the Stamina mundas stone once again offers a generic power bonus.
• In the champion system, there is a specific star I can pick that will increase my spell resistance whereas there is no such star for armor. (note: I am surprised there is a star to piece physical resistance, but naturally there is also one to bypass spells as normal).
• How many passives are the akin to the Templar's Balanced Warrior? It gives me the common theme of generic weapon damage and specific spell resistance. I can think of one, the DK scaled armor passive, which is a misnomer because it does not grant armor, rather spell resistance. I don't think there is a passive to increase armor at all.
• Spell users have readily available counter-play to all these means of defense, namely the aforementioned Apprentice Mundas stone, wearing 5 pieces of light armor, and a specific weapon trait that only helps penetrate a specific defense rather than a flat buff to damage.

The addition to Nirn and its specific spell penetration Vs. spell resistance mechanic was merely augmenting an existing mechanic in the game. Physical / armor are treated generically where it is difficult to gain specific strengths and weakness against it whereas spell attack vs defense is sort of a game within a game; one could more easily gain defenses against this form of attack and likewise penetrate those defenses.

Now I am not saying I agree with this gameplay philosophy, rather I am merely acknowledging it's existence and the implied intent behind it. I am also not denying there aren't exceptions: someone is bound to point out that bone shield only resists physical damage. OK, there is bone shield, but this is a short duration skill that must be activated and is has a more general survivalist component in its synergy - this one skill is in no way equivalent to the more enduring and general ways one can increase spell resistance.

Maybe it's not obvious - I never claimed it was - but I think the intent is not exactly hidden when contrasting how the game treats physical and magic attacks and defenses.

I'll go down your list.

1. The counterpart to harness magicka is not in the armor line, it is in the undaunted tree. Bone shield (absorbs only physical damage).

2. Yes light armor is the only penetration passive, but point for point technically the medium armor passive such as %incresed weapon damage is actually better (higher damage). It also does not suffer the negative of overpenetration.

3. You're right on the weapon passives, I'd assume that you chalk that up to them putting different flavors to each weapon, but you are welcome to draw from it as a point.

4. Once again you are right, no physical penetration mundus stone (although a few months ago they did come out saying they will be adding mundus stones to equalize such as having a stamina regen mundus, etc. etc.)

5. There is a champion system star that increases your armor, it just depends on which armor you are wearing. The sad thing here is the math is buggard and you can get 25% spell resist buff from champ, but only like ~18% from armor (lol thanks Zeni for making thing equal). Same problem with having a physical pen champ, but no flat damage reduction to counteract like magicka damage has.

6. I actually asked them in a meeting why Balanced Warrior did not also give spell damage when they homogenized a bunch of other passives to give both (and abilities). Their response was to bluntly put it would be overpowered as a passive, especially in terms of buffing templar heals from a skill line that isn't dedicated to healing (go figure).


While there are most definitely differences, I think I disagree with you on intent. I feel the intent of these differences we can see through how they have evolved from game intro. Stam/physical damage builds sucked for a long time. They tweaked the medium armor passives. They tweaked in game sets. They kept stacking the deck until 1.6 in which case now we have these disparities.

Why bother giving that list as nothing in it disputes what I said (I did point out bone shield)? Most of it is just obfuscation to deflect the number of times you said I'm right. I mean your counter to point #2 is to tell me medium armor's generic increase to weapon damage is better. How is that a counter? Did I ever say that the light armor mechanic of penetration was better than medium armor's generic flat damage? No, I didn't. So why bring it up? If ZoS did ever say they were going to add stamina equivalents to the magicka mundas stone that is irrelevant because they are not in the game. And it doesn't matter if you talked to the Zenimax developers, there are passives for spell resistance and none for armor. How are these even counters?

These did not somehow evolve into the game, they have been there since launch. The spell penetration / resistance passives have been there for light armor, the destruction staff, and various classes has always been there. Warrior has always given a generic increase to weapon power whereas the apprentice was always a specific form of penetration. There was no corresponding equivalent to stamina. You want to know what they changed from medium armor? Agility: which increased your attack speed - nothing to do with armor penetration. Or two handed? Arcane Warrior: which increase the chance to proc an elemental effect - nothing to do with armor penetration.

Stamina builds were bad for many reasons and the changes they have made to buff them have not altered the distinction the developers have treat magic and physical damage: the former had always numerous ways to only increase that specific type of resistance / penetration whereas the latter has had much less of this mechanic.

You say there is no intent. If you want to believe that, go ahead and chalk up that the consistent distinction made between spell / physical resistance and penetration to coincidence. It does not matter because it is a very real facet of the game that we are dealing with and regardless of how you feel it came into the game, the designers did consciously implement these differences. If there was no grand plan from the beginning, that does not change the fact that ZoS considered, tested, and decided that magic users were to have to contended with various ways for players to increase resistance against them (and were given means to overcome this) whereas this gameplay is significantly less so with weapon users. If anything, ZoS may be getting away from this dichotomy as the champion system has given players the option to acquire small generic increases to many gameplay elements and that they have decided to spend time on exactly how they are going to deal with nirn armor's high spell resistance.

Whether or not you agree I don't care. I do care that you were so rude and disrespectful that a moderator had to edit your post for violating the code of conduct.

olsborg

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Tankqull

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Tankqull

NPK Daniel wrote: »

The problem isn't nirn, it's that there's not an armor equivalent.

Make reinforced work like nirn, there, balance done.

not really as light armor AR values are so horrible low light armor useres remain not competitive. as 200% of nothing is still nothing :P

Maulkin

Tankqull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Not really, what are the issues with CFs? Care to be more specific?

The only damage modifiers you can add are Major Sorcery (spell dmg incr) and the Empower buff. Eveyrbody is buffed by Major Sorcery or Major Brutality all the time, no difference there. As for Empower, Snipers do that too with Radiant Magelight, NBs do it Ambush and Wrecking Blow grants Empower itself meaning WB spam is always empowered.

Also it depends who is stacking the nirn. You need the high base resist for nirn to work its magic once you take out the penetration provided by light armour passive and elemental drain for example.

If you're wearing light armor, you can stack 8/8 (or 9/9) nirn items, be near hardcap with over 30k spell resist and if I put an elemental drain on you I still hit you as if you're butt naked. Loads of people don't know how penetration works.

I agree with people saying the Empower buff needs to go. Remove that because it's used to boosts the highest burst abilities to an obscene amount. Remove empower, fix nirnhorned and let those changes sink in for a few weeks. Observe average TTK and if needed increase the Cyro HP boost by another 5k.

Tankqull

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Not really, what are the issues with CFs? Care to be more specific?

The only damage modifiers you can add are Major Sorcery (spell dmg incr) and the Empower buff. Eveyrbody is buffed by Major Sorcery or Major Brutality all the time, no difference there. As for Empower, Snipers do that too with Radiant Magelight, NBs do it Ambush and Wrecking Blow grants Empower itself meaning WB spam is always empowered.

Also it depends who is stacking the nirn. You need the high base resist for nirn to work its once you take out the penetration provided by light armour passive and elemental drain fro example.

If you're wearing light armor, you can stack 8/8 (or 9/9) nirn items have over 30k spell resist and if I put an elemental drain on you I still hit you as if you're naked. Loads of people don't know how penetration works.

I agree with people saying the Empower buff needs to go. Remove that becuase it boost the highest burst abilities to an obscene amount. Remove empower, fix nirnhorned and let those changes sink in for a few weeks. Observe average TTK and if needed increase the Cyro HP boost by another 5k.

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

Maulkin

Tankqull wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Not really, what are the issues with CFs? Care to be more specific?

The only damage modifiers you can add are Major Sorcery (spell dmg incr) and the Empower buff. Eveyrbody is buffed by Major Sorcery or Major Brutality all the time, no difference there. As for Empower, Snipers do that too with Radiant Magelight, NBs do it Ambush and Wrecking Blow grants Empower itself meaning WB spam is always empowered.

Also it depends who is stacking the nirn. You need the high base resist for nirn to work its once you take out the penetration provided by light armour passive and elemental drain fro example.

If you're wearing light armor, you can stack 8/8 (or 9/9) nirn items have over 30k spell resist and if I put an elemental drain on you I still hit you as if you're naked. Loads of people don't know how penetration works.

I agree with people saying the Empower buff needs to go. Remove that becuase it boost the highest burst abilities to an obscene amount. Remove empower, fix nirnhorned and let those changes sink in for a few weeks. Observe average TTK and if needed increase the Cyro HP boost by another 5k.

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

What do you mean by stacked with itself? Getting the buff twice? Or getting 20% of the 20% extra (i.e. 4% extra)

I've not heard of this before, which of course doesn't mean it might not be happening. Is it reproducible? Cause it's kinda hard to now if it's happening since that 20% is added to the base damage of the skill.

What I know is that if you have a small bit of shield left, the remainder of damage (after taking away the bit swallowed by the shield) will hit your HP unmitigated. Which I believe is true of all attacks. Which means if you are playing with medium or heavy and nirn, you're better off not using any shields at all.

Edit: Also the 20% damage increase from the proc was added to counter the 20% damage reduction in Cyrodiil. A lot of other skills (Flame Lash, Bit Jabs etc) had their base dmg boosted to negate the Battle Spirit effect too. Frag procs in 1.6 hit as hard (given same spell dmg & max magicka) as in 1.5. Channeled attacks are weaker by 20%. It's the removal of softcaps and the empower buff that has been the culprit for the arguably too high damage of frag procs.

RoamingRiverElk

I do want nirnhoned to be changed because it gives way too much protection for little sacrifice (basically, just using dropped armor sets less).

Think of "tanky" (sword and shield, 25k health, not much max magicka) magicka DKs that *don't* use nirnhoned vs a nirnhoned wearing DPS style build... The tanky DK practically won't do any damage with their flame whip. So those DKs will benefit a little (still only little because they just don't do a lot of damage with magicka skills). I put the "tanky" in quotes because it's very difficult to be tanky without nirnhoned and still have enough sustain.

But the thing is, I believe a lot of the real tanky DKs AND templars (magicka or stamina) *are* using nirnhoned (the ones you see and think, "oh, DK class is just fine!"). Once they don't have that, it will be interesting to see whether they can play outnumbered much at all... Or will they just mostly be run over. In other words, do buff DKs and templars. Both classes need something because they can't escape the fight. DKs used to be able to stay in fight because they generated ultimate fast enough. Nowadays that just isn't happening. Perhaps lower ultimate costs for any ultimate (like the passive sorcerers have). And templars... Just give them something for Talos' sake!

LegendaryMage

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

Tankqull

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Not really, what are the issues with CFs? Care to be more specific?

The only damage modifiers you can add are Major Sorcery (spell dmg incr) and the Empower buff. Eveyrbody is buffed by Major Sorcery or Major Brutality all the time, no difference there. As for Empower, Snipers do that too with Radiant Magelight, NBs do it Ambush and Wrecking Blow grants Empower itself meaning WB spam is always empowered.

Also it depends who is stacking the nirn. You need the high base resist for nirn to work its once you take out the penetration provided by light armour passive and elemental drain fro example.

If you're wearing light armor, you can stack 8/8 (or 9/9) nirn items have over 30k spell resist and if I put an elemental drain on you I still hit you as if you're naked. Loads of people don't know how penetration works.

I agree with people saying the Empower buff needs to go. Remove that becuase it boost the highest burst abilities to an obscene amount. Remove empower, fix nirnhorned and let those changes sink in for a few weeks. Observe average TTK and if needed increase the Cyro HP boost by another 5k.

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

What do you mean by stacked with itself? Getting the buff twice? Or getting 20% of the 20% extra (i.e. 4% extra)

I've not heard of this before, which of course doesn't mean it might not be happening. Is it reproducible? Cause it's kinda hard to now if it's happening since that 20% is added to the base damage of the skill.

What I know is that if you have a small bit of shield left, the remainder of damage (after taking away the bit swallowed by the shield) will hit your HP unmitigated. Which I believe is true of all attacks.

well my cf do 6700 tooltip delve(within cyrodiil) one week ago i oneshotted another player with over 24k crit frag, for reconstruction its seems to be rather difficult but not impossible.
a NB attacked my groups templar as i had an empowered insta frag ready i switched my target towards him send him my frag into the face as he was running away from us, as his innitial burst didnt kill my group mate, out of my range i switched again used a crushing shock wich procs another CF wich made me reuse degeneration for empower wich aswell proced another CF a milisecond befor the impact of my first frag wich scattered the NB over the ground with nearly 25k dmg. thats obviously extreme luck but 1 additional proc can happen quite often increasing the dmg of frags into values that are still to high.

[edit]
just for the ease of math using major brut as a flat 1,2 modifier
6700 *1,2[major brut]*1.2[innirtial proc]*1,2[empower]*1.2[2nd proc by CS]*1.2[3rd proc by degeneration]*1.6[crit increasment]=26674 close enough for his 25k life to be depleted.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Edit: Also the 20% damage increase from the proc was added to counter the 20% damage reduction in Cyrodiil. A lot of other skills (Flame Lash, Bit Jabs etc) had their base dmg boosted to negate the Battle Spirit effect too. Frag procs in 1.6 hit as hard (given same spell dmg & max magicka) as in 1.5. Channeled attacks are weaker by 20%. It's the removal of softcaps and the empower buff that has been the culprit for the arguably too high damage of frag procs.

thats the same incorrect math we faced in SWTOR

to keep it simple 100base value, 20% buff and 20% reduction

100*0.80*1.2 != 100 but actually 96...

Maulkin

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

To be fair, I don't think it's an exploit. Plus as you once said, it's nice to fight nirn users because htey are the best sort of practice :P

Thing is, even after a nerf it'll still be one of the best traits for PvP since Impenetrable died. So people investing in nirn gear feel safe that it'll still be very useful afterwards.

LegendaryMage

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think it's an exploit. Plus as you once said, it's nice to fight nirn users because htey are the best sort of practice :P

Thing is, even after a nerf it'll still be one of the best traits for PvP since Impenetrable died. So people investing in nirn gear feel safe that it'll still be very useful afterwards.

Well we can call it however we want, if a guy is using it and he's unkillable vs me, yet he dies in less than 10 seconds when he doesn't have it, then I'm really tempted to call it an exploit but alright.

Yeah, aside from my own point of view, I do love to fight these opponents because 1-2 matches with them (if they're decent players) is more practice than 10-12 matches when they don't have it.

technohic

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Fixing Nirnhoned is a great thing, since it will only make the Sorcerer's status in Cyrodiil more apparent.

That's fine if you think that nirhoned doesn't help them just the same. One of the best counters to a sorc, if not THE best counter, is to reflect their frags and overload back at them. They can wear nirhoned to as teargrants just showed.

Again; this is hurting more steady DPS builds more than it does the high burst ones. I know its supposed to be magicka sorcs vs Stamina everything else, right?

Rudyard

Pixysticks wrote: »

This is what happens if you don't wear nirn:

Yes, I can testify that's what it was like last week when Pixy caught me with my shields down and hit me with a 19k crystal frag to the face at Sejanus.

Cogo

Teargrants wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It didn't crit, so... 3Kish.

Here's an illustration for you.

Holy ***! EPIC!

This made my day! Thanks man! Drinks on me when you get too Sweden! ^^
Oh, the Kittah liked it too....watch.

Ezareth

Tankqull wrote: »

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

I've heard this but never experienced it myself. My top end fragments are my top end fragments. I've never seen them crit for more than +40% tooltip in any circumstances. Maybe there is a way to exploit the proc with a bug but that has no place in a balance discussion.

Tankqull wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

the problem is that CF has some issues allowing you to stack absurd dmg modifiers into it (sure its luck dependend) allowing you to hit anybody in some extreme situations even 4+ nirn user for nearly 20k dmg ... wich needs to be fixed alonsgide nirn.

Not really, what are the issues with CFs? Care to be more specific?

The only damage modifiers you can add are Major Sorcery (spell dmg incr) and the Empower buff. Eveyrbody is buffed by Major Sorcery or Major Brutality all the time, no difference there. As for Empower, Snipers do that too with Radiant Magelight, NBs do it Ambush and Wrecking Blow grants Empower itself meaning WB spam is always empowered.

Also it depends who is stacking the nirn. You need the high base resist for nirn to work its once you take out the penetration provided by light armour passive and elemental drain fro example.

If you're wearing light armor, you can stack 8/8 (or 9/9) nirn items have over 30k spell resist and if I put an elemental drain on you I still hit you as if you're naked. Loads of people don't know how penetration works.

I agree with people saying the Empower buff needs to go. Remove that becuase it boost the highest burst abilities to an obscene amount. Remove empower, fix nirnhorned and let those changes sink in for a few weeks. Observe average TTK and if needed increase the Cyro HP boost by another 5k.

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

What do you mean by stacked with itself? Getting the buff twice? Or getting 20% of the 20% extra (i.e. 4% extra)

I've not heard of this before, which of course doesn't mean it might not be happening. Is it reproducible? Cause it's kinda hard to now if it's happening since that 20% is added to the base damage of the skill.

What I know is that if you have a small bit of shield left, the remainder of damage (after taking away the bit swallowed by the shield) will hit your HP unmitigated. Which I believe is true of all attacks.

well my cf do 6700 tooltip delve(within cyrodiil) one week ago i oneshotted another player with over 24k crit frag, for reconstruction its seems to be rather difficult but not impossible.
a NB attacked my groups templar as i had an empowered insta frag ready i switched my target towards him send him my frag into the face as he was running away from us, as his innitial burst didnt kill my group mate, out of my range i switched again used a crushing shock wich procs another CF wich made me reuse degeneration for empower wich aswell proced another CF a milisecond befor the impact of my first frag wich scattered the NB over the ground with nearly 25k dmg. thats obviously extreme luck but 1 additional proc can happen quite often increasing the dmg of frags into values that are still to high.

[edit]
just for the ease of math using major brut as a flat 1,2 modifier
6700 *1,2[major brut]*1.2[innirtial proc]*1,2[empower]*1.2[2nd proc by CS]*1.2[3rd proc by degeneration]*1.6[crit increasment]=26674 close enough for his 25k life to be depleted.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Edit: Also the 20% damage increase from the proc was added to counter the 20% damage reduction in Cyrodiil. A lot of other skills (Flame Lash, Bit Jabs etc) had their base dmg boosted to negate the Battle Spirit effect too. Frag procs in 1.6 hit as hard (given same spell dmg & max magicka) as in 1.5. Channeled attacks are weaker by 20%. It's the removal of softcaps and the empower buff that has been the culprit for the arguably too high damage of frag procs.

thats the same incorrect math we faced in SWTOR

to keep it simple 100base value, 20% buff and 20% reduction

100*0.80*1.2 != 100 but actually 96...

That's just bogus math. The effects of the procs are additive not multiplicative with each other. I've still not seen my fragments behave anything like this and I've had multiple procs before.

Maulkin

@Tankqull The hardest frag I've ever hit was 20k when I tried a 5 piece Martial Knowledge and hit someone after entropy.

Every point of that 20k I could account for. I have not seen evidence of what you're describing not to mention that like Ez said the math on your last paragraph dones not represent reality at all.

As for the 100 * 0.8 * 1.2 = 96 it you are right but 96 is close to 100. My point was they tried to compensate the damage loss from Battler Spirit of certain skills by giving buffs.

In some skills like Engulfing flames and others the buff was 30% where 100*0.8*1.3= 104. Thus making them stronger than they were despite the Battle Spirit nerf.

RinaldoGandolphi

Everyone who is not a Sorc seems to think Sorc's are OP, and nothing could be farther from the truth. You can take Nirnhoned completely out of the equation, and Sorc's are getting weaker by the day while Stamina users get stronger with each Champion Point used.

The rate at which characters become stronger between magic and stamina in the CS is as unbalanced as all can be, and stamina users will soon surpass the "dreaded Sorc" in PVP as most of the entire CS is slanted towards physical damage and stamina...look at how many bonuses for stamina vs magic in the CS, We can all see where things will be headed simply by looking at the trends in the CS tree...Stamina will be more powerful then magic as we get closer to the CS points Apex(this is not 3600 either)

Stamina users will have:

1. Greater Damage

2. Cheaper costs(Med Armor Cost Reduction, 2 levels of cost reduction in the weapon passives, CS cost reduction, + CS stamina regen, CS break free cost reduction, CS dodge roll cost reduction, Stamina cost reduction enchants making dodge roll cost less etc..all of this..and magic users get magic regen, magic cost reduction, and broken spell penetration that hasn't worked right since beta as @Ezareth has pointed out here numerous times.

3. Spell Resist is obtained very easily in proportion to physical resist. To get really high Physical resist numbers requires Heavy Armor and giving up some damage potential as a 5 Heavy Armor user will not do as much damage as a 7 Med armor user, but Spell resist is easy to get in comparison while still being able to do decent damage. Med armor should be 1/2 of Heavy, not 3/4, but thats a topic for another tale... This is not to mention that the Light Armor Sorcs wear is utter garbage in damage potential and damage mitigation in comparison to Med armor.

4. Very viable Defenses - Not all Stamina users have to be wearing Med Armor, Heavy Armor tanks that use Stamina can perma block as well. My Templar Tank is able to block for an eternity and he isn't even vet rank yet...he feels more powerful then my Sorc right now, and my Sorc is over 2.2k Spell damage, 31k magic at Vet 14. Stmian Tank builds are very powerful.

As time goes on, i see no reason to continue being a Sorc in PVP. Diminishing Returns of the CS guarantees magic users will be weaker then their stamina counter parts once we reach the upper curve of the CS(not 3600 points either). I'll still play my Sorc in PVE content and mess around in PVP, but he won't be my main focus much longer...he is the 1st character i made at launch and has been my sole main since then, but magic Sorc becomes less attractive by the day.

Stamina has every advantage right now over magic, and that advantage will continue to widen. Those playing the Sorc are playing it because they love the class and got good at it.

Imagine guys like Ezareth, Prett, or Fengrush with Nightblades or even DK's...they would absolutely wreck people...folks would be crying way worse over them then they are Sorc's now....Nightblades are insanely strong right now, in the right hands...wow.....

Nirnhoned being the only thing keeping Sorc's in check is just simply false. Sorc's will be and will continue to become weaker then their stamina counterparts and less efficient just because of how the CS is set up to favor stamina and physical damage, as well as Med Armor giving Cost Reductions that go along with Stamina Weapon Cost Reduction Passives in the weapon trees, and Stamina Cost reduction enchants....not only does Stamina do more damage, its Cheaper to boot!!!!!

It must be nice to deal the most damage for the cheapest price in the game..i wish magic had it that good....

this post not directed at you @vortexman11 just venting out my view, nothing more.