Why I don't want Nirnhoned Fixed

frozywozy

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Agrippa_Invisus

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Templars and DKs not having some form of inborn escape ability (aside from relying on RM from the Assault line or Mist form) is a whole other ball of wax.

Pixysticks

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Tankqull The hardest frag I've ever hit was 20k when I tried a 5 piece Martial Knowledge and hit someone after entropy.

Every point of that 20k I could account for. I have not seen evidence of what you're describing not to mention that like Ez said the math on your last paragraph dones not represent reality at all.

As for the 100 * 0.8 * 1.2 = 96 it you are right but 96 is close to 100. My point was they tried to compensate the damage loss from Battler Spirit of certain skills by giving buffs.

In some skills like Engulfing flames and others the buff was 30% where 100*0.8*1.3= 104. Thus making them stronger than they were despite the Battle Spirit nerf.

Entropy and other damage over time abilities can not proc the martial knowledge 5 piece, or be absorbed by damage increasing abilities such as the MOTG buff. You must hit someone with a mages fury, then entropy, then crystal frag, in order for your frag to receive the 10% additional damage from martial.

As for the math, the first frag proc is going to be 20% more than the original, the second will be 17% greater than the prior, the third will be a little over 14% greater than the proc before it. Regardless, you will always lose dps when attempting to stack like that, because it's always going to be more damage to throw the frag and just get another proc then attempting to get multiple amounts of them intentionally.

Teargrants

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Templars and DKs not having some form of inborn escape ability (aside from relying on RM from the Assault line or Mist form) is a whole other ball of wax.

What are you guys talking about?

Get your facts straight!

frozywozy

Teargrants wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

Exactly. It's always sad to see great players go the easy way and use a straight up broken trait to become unkillable. I never used the nirn stuff on my gear, or my staff (might try staff now that it's fixed). When sharpened was broken way back in the past, I used another trait intentionally. It feels like cheating, it is cheating and it shows who's got good character and who only cares about winning no matter what. Respect to all players who aren't exploiting.

I would do the same if I had bolt escape or any escape move on my DK

Templars and DKs not having some form of inborn escape ability (aside from relying on RM from the Assault line or Mist form) is a whole other ball of wax.

What are you guys talking about?

Get your facts straight!

I could care less about frags I can still get hit by velocious curse + unstable detonation + endless fury for 22k burst. Reflect does help but it won't change anything when you play a magicka DK and your only range solution is crushing shock weaving which totally screwed up my fingers because of the poor damage it deals (2-3mins per players). So as a result, a magicka DK must fights in melee range to be effective and he needs not only to reflect but to be able to resist all that player aoe / ground aoe / dots / siege damage / wrecking blow / soul harvest and massive ccs. Something that any class with an escape move such as bolt escape, cloak and dodge roll can deal with easily as soon as it gets too hot. On a Magicka DK tho, your dodge rolls are counted and if you don't have something like nirnhoded to supports yourself, well you better stack hardened armor, igneous shield, dampen magic and healing ward and go resto/one hand shield. lol

leandro.800ub17_ESO

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

Laggus

olsborg wrote: »

Nirn needs a fix, and its coming, but not too soon. Im a mag sorc and when fighting nirn users I pick up on it imediately because my dmg plummets by 30-40% compared to those that dont use it. By a simple trait on armor, this is clearly OP.
Those that use nirn, knowingly because its in its current state are...well....whatever. Its not their fault, its hard to resist getting harder to kill. Personally, ive opted to not use it, as I did when the nirn weapon trait was op too, I used sharpened.

-Jovre

And when Nirn is nerfed you better be ready for cries for sorc nerfs because there will be many more than there is already.

Teargrants

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

vortexman11

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Agrippa_Invisus

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

Ezareth

Laggus wrote: »

you better be ready for cries for sorc nerfs because there will be many more than there is already.

Huntler

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Agrippa_Invisus

Huntler wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Fair point, and definitely an option for roll/dodge. With the implementation of something akin to the Blink cost increase, you'd still see the skill used fairly constantly, but not where players literally roll dodging through groups, stopping only long enough to try to kill someone they've isolated briefly and then returning to roll dodging.

Roll/Dodge should be a defense mechanism, not a means of conveyance.

Snit

Tankqull wrote: »

and the insta proc 20% dmg increase wich can be stacked with itself under some circumstances

The second bit is a bug (or it should be), and it needs to be changed. I suspect that's the source of the really huge CF hits, and it makes the spell appear more powerful than it is or should be.

technohic

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Fair point, and definitely an option for roll/dodge. With the implementation of something akin to the Blink cost increase, you'd still see the skill used fairly constantly, but not where players literally roll dodging through groups, stopping only long enough to try to kill someone they've isolated briefly and then returning to roll dodging.

Roll/Dodge should be a defense mechanism, not a means of conveyance.

Ezareth

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Fair point, and definitely an option for roll/dodge. With the implementation of something akin to the Blink cost increase, you'd still see the skill used fairly constantly, but not where players literally roll dodging through groups, stopping only long enough to try to kill someone they've isolated briefly and then returning to roll dodging.

Roll/Dodge should be a defense mechanism, not a means of conveyance.

I think the overabundance of Regen and stacking of cost reduction is the biggest issue. I don't agree with the "Bolt Escape treatment" as it punishes legitimate uses of the ability by people who aren't optimally specced for it.

This all goes back to my Rise of the Perma-dodger thread.

Huntler

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Fair point, and definitely an option for roll/dodge. With the implementation of something akin to the Blink cost increase, you'd still see the skill used fairly constantly, but not where players literally roll dodging through groups, stopping only long enough to try to kill someone they've isolated briefly and then returning to roll dodging.

Roll/Dodge should be a defense mechanism, not a means of conveyance.

Agreed and thats actually what I want roll dodge to be. Its an important ability and I like its use, but I hate what its become as a way to completely mitigate damage. I like putting tools into the hands of a player for them to actively respond to threats... but when you can spam dodge it is no longer a skill/player awareness tool, it is just spam it without thinking. Some of the other options people have given to solve the problem worries me because it seems like it nerfs everyones' use of dodge roll which (just my opinion) I don't want. I think the spamming is where roll dodge becomes broken, but for players who can't/don't spam it is an important tool that is expensive, but also necessary. Anything akin to making it more expensive in the kind of use I said for regular players would really hurt survivability, especially for smaller groups.I think the problem with Bolt Escape and its solution many months ago seems very applicable here, you don't want to hurt players using it a certain way, but need to tone down the overuse of it for basically 100% mitigation against most attacks for virtually free.

FENGRUSH

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

These changes will not save you from FENGRUSH.

Hypertionb14_ESO

its got the same issues as Impen once had, but in such a way only one playstyle is affected by it.

No one trait should be this excessive, just as the Repeatedly broken spell pen gets fixed, so should Nirnhoned Defense maxing.

HOWEVER

i do think there should be a physical version of Nirnhoned, and find it not at all weird because they are obviously going to do it on the "next craglorn" they had planned and have now backburnered to oblivion..

that said it should not do defensively what nirnhoned does, otherwise you will go right back to light armor tanks running half and half of these traits to get maxed resist and armor, while still oneshotting anyone unable to afford or craft or just not plain high enough to use.

Pixysticks

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

Pixysticks

.

Huntler

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

Jesus beam does, but if they aren't in execute range its like trying to hit someone with a wet noodle.

Agrippa_Invisus

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

frozywozy

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

with 1700 spell dmg, molten whip isn't enough to deal with a nightblade spamming dodge roll + rally. Plus, the nightblade can gets gear bonus to increase his run speed forcing you to use a gap closer to reach him and making it even harder to deal consistent damage as the nightblade keeps dodge rolling + cloaking at super speed abusing obstacles and LoS.

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

Ezareth

frozywozy wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

with 1700 spell dmg, molten whip isn't enough to deal with a nightblade spamming dodge roll + rally. Plus, the nightblade can gets gear bonus to increase his run speed forcing you to use a gap closer to reach him and making it even harder to deal consistent damage as the nightblade keeps dodge rolling + cloaking at super speed abusing obstacles and LoS.

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

Velocious curse by itself also doesn't kill dodge rollers, especially if they're spamming vigor as well.

If I'm attacking a Dodge Roller with VC and Resto Heavy attacks it takes an absurdly long time to kill them while rolling, and if they're wearing Nirnhoned forget it!

Huntler

frozywozy wrote: »

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

You and I fundamentally disagree on the solution to dodge roll spam. Dodge roll is very important in this game, it is a fundamental mechanic necessary, especially for players not zerging. You add more CC that works through dodge, good players won't be able to compete, just as the zerg does already with CC spam, theyll spam these dodge ignoring CCs because thats all you need to do in a zerg, spam your 1 most effective button. Dodge is a counter towards CCs... youre asking to remove a counter to CC basically, that isn't the solution.

Dodge roll plays a significant role (heh) in this game, the problem isn't a good player using dodge once to counteract an enemy incoming meteor or whatever, the problem is being able to spam it to mitigate all damage... remove the ability to spam it and you're done.

KISS. Keep it simple stupid. These other solutions have far more drastic consequences. Since ESO is against cooldowns, its simple. Give it the bolt escape treatment and be done with it. Dodge roll is my only option as a templar healer to avoid instant gibbing trouble from a variety of sources... and you want to put a CC in that people can spam. I'll say again. Zergs tend to spam 1 button. Usually their most effective CC. AOE root spam, charge (also a root), etc. No thanks for CCs that go through root, that will just be the new thing to spam. For someone who complains about the zerg so much I assume you understand that principal.

Pixysticks

frozywozy wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

with 1700 spell dmg, molten whip isn't enough to deal with a nightblade spamming dodge roll + rally. Plus, the nightblade can gets gear bonus to increase his run speed forcing you to use a gap closer to reach him and making it even harder to deal consistent damage as the nightblade keeps dodge rolling + cloaking at super speed abusing obstacles and LoS.

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

Ali actually told me the one thing he really can't deal with is magicka DKs holding block and spamming him with whip. If you were talking about trying to stop a NB from running, well you can't really, no one really can if they want to desperately run, same goes for a sorc who really wants to run.

But yeah, if I wasn't specced to do any damage and had 1700 spell damage, I wouldn't able to be kill anyone really, let alone someone spamming roll dodge, so that would be part of the problem.

Xeven

technohic wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

First off ppl are going to complain about OP DPS when players reach 900+ CP so NIRN is the only way to avoid it
I already see players doing 20k DPS

SInce nirn is the only way to avoid it, give me another trait to increase my total armor value by 24.5% per piece too. Fair is fair.

I actually wrote that up there, to make a physical resistance equivalent to nirnhoned and to improve the traits that effect the users DPS such as sharpened and infused so that someone in full Nirnhoned would be lacking in DPS compared to someone in full infused with a sharpened weapon

Change Reinforced so that it proves up to 24% addition armor (and armor only) per legendary piece that it's applied to.
Keep Nirnhoned's percentage, but have it applied to the spell resistance from that piece only.

Make nirnstones much, much, much more common.

Change the HP totals back to the same boost that Stamina and Magicka pools received.

Lower the damage of high damage attacks across the board (by whatever means necessary).

Change shields so only the most powerful one is applied.

Put either a cooldown on roll/dodge or have it reduce your stam regen like sprinting or apply a limit to the number of attacks that are missed, like wings has a limit.

Consider lowering the hard cap (or implementing one) on the regen rates, to prevent unlimited eternal resources. Players need to have a chance of running out of their chosen resource during fights.

I agree with all of this except the roll dodge suggestion. I'd like roll dodge instead to get the bolt escape treatment so that spamming it is prohibitively expensive. I think if we implement your solution it removes somewhat a player who is aware of the fights around him's ability to correctly use roll dodge. If you put a limit on the number of attacks missed, you kind of have to hope to the rng gods that if a bunch of attacks are flying at you that you are dodging the one that you mean to dodge (many attacks might be superfluous, but I want to be dodging that specific wrecking blow or whatever). In addition, just reducing stamina regen during the roll I don't think will have an effect on the prime culprits of roll dodge spam (its so cheap already for them...).

Fair point, and definitely an option for roll/dodge. With the implementation of something akin to the Blink cost increase, you'd still see the skill used fairly constantly, but not where players literally roll dodging through groups, stopping only long enough to try to kill someone they've isolated briefly and then returning to roll dodging.

Roll/Dodge should be a defense mechanism, not a means of conveyance.

You just showed your age, you old fart. Its cool though, at least I know I'm not the only one.

Huntler

Pixysticks wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

Sabre Ali offered a pretty interesting solution to me before about spam bolt escaping, everytime you use it more than 2 times in 5 seconds, you get electrocuted, taking a disintigration proc each time (~7-9k shock damage). I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think something along these lines is a pretty cool idea and could possibly work, it makes sense at least. I think if it does, something similar could be added to spamming Dark Cloak, and other similar abilities as well.

with 1700 spell dmg, molten whip isn't enough to deal with a nightblade spamming dodge roll + rally. Plus, the nightblade can gets gear bonus to increase his run speed forcing you to use a gap closer to reach him and making it even harder to deal consistent damage as the nightblade keeps dodge rolling + cloaking at super speed abusing obstacles and LoS.

what classes need is CCs such as petrify to stun through dodge roll. this works amazingly well.

Ali actually told me the one thing he really can't deal with is magicka DKs holding block and spamming him with whip. If you were talking about trying to stop a NB from running, well you can't really, no one really can if they want to desperately run, same goes for a sorc who really wants to run.

But yeah, if I wasn't specced to do any damage and had 1700 spell damage, I wouldn't able to be kill anyone really, let alone someone spamming roll dodge, so that would be part of the problem.

This statement made my eyebrow raise as well. I know before I was talking with Kaghei and Perma about it and they love that flame whip goes through dodge and that its pretty strong for dealing with it. They only lamented that there is no stam version. I think the 1700 spell damage might be the problem in the build frozy is running. I am sure you have your reasons frozy, but that is a bit low for someone in the game of trying to kill people at least. Needs to be above 2k I would think with the current meta, especially with the rise of nirn.

Maulkin

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think spam roll dodging as fine as long as every class has at least 1 counter to it. Dks have whip, I have Curse, Nbs have Conceal, do Temps have something that can hit spam dodgers?

One of the many reasons that I feel DKs really, really need a stamina morph of whip.

As it is, it feels that everything I can do as a stamina DK a NB does better.

I'm already starting to reconsider a transition back to Magicka and how I'd do that. But Nirnhoned keeps me away.

That won't happen as you imagine it. By design magicka melee abilities are not dodgable while stamina ones are.

For example Ambush (considered melee by the game, procs Redguard Adrenaline Rush) is dodgeable, unmorphed as Teleport Strike it's not dodgeable.

Concealed Weapon is not dodgeable, Suprise Attack is dodgeable.

Every melee weapon skill is dodgeable. Every magicka melee skill is not

By same design as Concealed Weapon, if there was a stamina morph of Whip it would be dodgeable.

Since it's consistent, I'd guess that developers see it as a boost for magicka melee to counter stamina roll dodge spam.