Why I don't want Nirnhoned Fixed

Rook_Master

Huntler wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

People just get hit by one person for a ton, then use it as ammunition to say that specific class or spell does too much damage. But the real problem is there's just too many multipliers in this game that all stack with each other. If I was a templar I would run my exact same setup and probably 100-0 someone in a single radiant; could easily 1-shot someone with these stats with a heavy attack of a dest staff if I was a DK, as a NB the Focused Aims would be even more damage than I do now.

Removing the empower buff from the game is the first solution to the problem; if you want wrecking blow to add damage on your next attack that's fine, but make it add a flat amount of damage so it's not exponentially multiplied by every other multiplicative variable used to calculate damage in this game. At least take the empower buff away from Inner Light/Radiant Light. Make people actually entropy someone and come out of stealth if they want a 20% damage bonus on their snipe or frags.

Well, in all honesty a templar couldn't run your build because damage buffs don't act like that for radiant and in addition our shield is based off health, not magicka.... and it only lasts 6 seconds. A magicka glass canon templar doesn't really exist in the current meta because they'd get wrecked left and right. Thats not to say it isn't possible and is basically a rinse/repeat of entropy, dark flare, dark flare, radiant, but its basically a poor man's Sorc build (we can't get a double % damage buff from dark flare as well) since we don't have the synergy between our survivability and damage mechanic (as well as 0 escapes). Sorcs/NBs can afford glass canon because of their escape tools and ways of mitigating damage that simply don't exist for a class like magicka templar. Right now its very clear the powerhouses for mitigation are dodge roll and shields based off magicka, players get the best of both worlds. Strong mitigation countermeasures while maintaining maximum damage.


I like your thoughts on changing how empower works though. I think ZOS made a big mistake when they didn't realize how damage buffs could stack. They thought putting a % damage reduction on everyone in Cyrodiil would work at keeping burst in check (20% reduction), but when 1 buff immediately removes that measure while also allowing other buffs such as spell damage buffs (and certain other abilities not having to obey the minor/major buff status).... the cyrodiil debuff basically is pointless at that point. It makes it even more complicated because you can't just increase the debuff.... you only further force people to HAVE to stack those buffs or else nothing dies. Its not in a good place right now.

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

Psilent

I've gotten 17 to 19k hits with my Dark Flare. They'll be higher once I finish my setup!

Rook_Master

Psilent wrote: »

I've gotten 17 to 19k hits with my Dark Flare. They'll be higher once I finish my setup!

That's great when doing a perfect test on an overworld mob with 0% resists.

Have fun critting for 7-9k on people running full Nirnhoned.

Psilent

lol, why would I test damage on mobs? Those hits came on people in PvP. Someone wearing 4 nirnhoned was around 7 to 9k. Which is very acceptable.

Varicite

I agree w/ the OP. TTK is just too low post 1.6, and this really needs to be looked at thoroughly.

Ezareth

Huntler wrote: »

I made quite an indepth post a while back about this very issue and how spell damage has more counters while physical damage has no pure CS damage reduction to physical line... its actually a pretty big deal and gets worse every day as people get more CP...

Yup, any min/maxer with two brain cells to rub together can see how the deck is stacked for Stamina build. Split damage trees for magicka damage (the chief one located in a melee centric tree), physical resistance increases only possible from your armor (lol), not a single good magicka passive (other than the obvious 12% crit shared by physical) compared to 4 or 5 pretty good physical/stamina build passives.

When you Scale everything out to infinity stamina build effectiveness grows at a far greater pace than magicka and there is no chance that this isn't by design.

Pixysticks wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

People just get hit by one person for a ton, then use it as ammunition to say that specific class or spell does too much damage. But the real problem is there's just too many multipliers in this game that all stack with each other. If I was a templar I would run my exact same setup and probably 100-0 someone in a single radiant; could easily 1-shot someone with these stats with a heavy attack of a dest staff if I was a DK, as a NB the Focused Aims would be even more damage than I do now.

Removing the empower buff from the game is the first solution to the problem; if you want wrecking blow to add damage on your next attack that's fine, but make it add a flat amount of damage so it's not exponentially multiplied by every other multiplicative variable used to calculate damage in this game. At least take the empower buff away from Inner Light/Radiant Light. Make people actually entropy someone and come out of stealth if they want a 20% damage bonus on their snipe or frags.

Yeah and many times that person is an Emp which is a fact the person conveniently leaves out.

I have no doubt that I could hit a unmitigated 25K power overload crit if I switched my build to max damage. My build would suck as anything other than a glass cannon though.

I think the Crystal Fragment "Proc" bonus shouldn't stack with Might of the Guild. Right now that gives you a +40% bonus to your fragments when you entropy someone before casting on them. This change would actually make Power-surge more viable as an ability as it should be again as it would still give the +20% spellpower of entropy as well as a heal.

I don't think there should be any stacking +damage bonuses. Right now you can get +30% damage on an interrupt, I've got a 12K wrecking blow on someone after interrupting them on my L26 nightblade. When you stack some of these modifiers you just get stupid damage.

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

Rook_Master

Ezareth wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

The problem is that some PvErs whined, and now Templar's Healing line doesn't synergize with Resto Staff. Zenimax is willing to pretend, to a certain extent that classes should be able to perform all roles equally. But are only willing to nerf Templar heals because some other classes couldn't get picked up as healers for vet dungeons.

You have to recognize that it is somewhat unfair for Templars to have their heals nerfed, and dps is not adjusted to compensate.

What I would give for Blazing Shield to scale off magicka and have a real stun on Dark Flare.

Maulkin

Rook_Master wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

The problem is that some PvErs whined, and now Templar's Healing line doesn't synergize with Resto Staff. Zenimax is willing to pretend, to a certain extent that classes should be able to perform all roles equally. But are only willing to nerf Templar heals because some other classes couldn't get picked up as healers for vet dungeons.

You have to recognize that it is somewhat unfair for Templars to have their heals nerfed, and dps is not adjusted to compensate.

What I would give for Blazing Shield to scale off magicka and have a real stun on Dark Flare.

I thought in 1.6 Templars are only 2nd to DKs in DPS? 18k-20k top end dps depending on the boss you measure it against.

Certainly much higher than any Sorc build and higher than magicka NBs, for example. Adjustments were certainly made to Templar DPS, no doubt.

Rook_Master

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

The problem is that some PvErs whined, and now Templar's Healing line doesn't synergize with Resto Staff. Zenimax is willing to pretend, to a certain extent that classes should be able to perform all roles equally. But are only willing to nerf Templar heals because some other classes couldn't get picked up as healers for vet dungeons.

You have to recognize that it is somewhat unfair for Templars to have their heals nerfed, and dps is not adjusted to compensate.

What I would give for Blazing Shield to scale off magicka and have a real stun on Dark Flare.

I thought in 1.6 Templars are only 2nd to DKs in DPS? 18k-20k top end dps depending on the boss you measure it against.

Certainly much higher than any Sorc build and higher than magicka NBs, for example. Adjustments were certainly made to Templar DPS, no doubt.

I'm sorry, I missed the video where some guy gets his perfect rotation off on bloodspawn, absolutely safe while the tank holds aggro.

Under those circumstances it is possible. I'm talking about a real-world scenario where I would take Crystal Frags over Dark Flare, and Hardened Ward over Blazing Shield every time, if given the choice.

Jakx

These discussions are all well and good but I guess Ill be the cynical one in the thread.

They already said they are focusing on console release. Any changes to the game are months out. We can talk till we are blue in the face but they continually make poor decisions. I am afraid in this case the only thing that will occur is we wait a few months for more poor decisions to occur with no real fixes.

The greatest joke of them all will be where this game is at when they ignored their PC player base for a few months to focus on what will be a failed console release. Where will the game be then?

The best solution I saw in this thread for a quick fix that could be enacted without taking precious development time away from consoles is Ezareth's suggestion to increase the health buff in cyrodiil. Low overhead, quick fix, and even if it doesnt work out they can flip it back to current health levels. Since this game is still in Beta you might as well just try it ZOS.

Erock25

Rook_Master wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

The problem is that some PvErs whined, and now Templar's Healing line doesn't synergize with Resto Staff. Zenimax is willing to pretend, to a certain extent that classes should be able to perform all roles equally. But are only willing to nerf Templar heals because some other classes couldn't get picked up as healers for vet dungeons.

You have to recognize that it is somewhat unfair for Templars to have their heals nerfed, and dps is not adjusted to compensate.

What I would give for Blazing Shield to scale off magicka and have a real stun on Dark Flare.

I thought in 1.6 Templars are only 2nd to DKs in DPS? 18k-20k top end dps depending on the boss you measure it against.

Certainly much higher than any Sorc build and higher than magicka NBs, for example. Adjustments were certainly made to Templar DPS, no doubt.

I'm sorry, I missed the video where some guy gets his perfect rotation off on bloodspawn, absolutely safe while the tank holds aggro.

Under those circumstances it is possible. I'm talking about a real-world scenario where I would take Crystal Frags over Dark Flare, and Hardened Ward over Blazing Shield every time, if given the choice.

That guys build is pulling high dmg numbers (much higher than anything a Sorc can do) regardless of the fight .... granted this is PVE, but you were talking PVE if you are mentioning Temp heals being nerfed. There is a long topic about over on tamrielfoundry. /offtopic

Maulkin

Rook_Master wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why magicka Templars will always be sub-par to sorcs.

They're always going to be sub-par sorcs, just like sorcs are sub-par nightblades. This whole concept that every class should be as effective as any other class at what that class does best makes no sense to me. Magicka Templars excel at healing and support. I think the best 4 man group you could possibly put together would include 1 player from each class as they all bring something unique and useful to the table.

The problem is that some PvErs whined, and now Templar's Healing line doesn't synergize with Resto Staff. Zenimax is willing to pretend, to a certain extent that classes should be able to perform all roles equally. But are only willing to nerf Templar heals because some other classes couldn't get picked up as healers for vet dungeons.

You have to recognize that it is somewhat unfair for Templars to have their heals nerfed, and dps is not adjusted to compensate.

What I would give for Blazing Shield to scale off magicka and have a real stun on Dark Flare.

I thought in 1.6 Templars are only 2nd to DKs in DPS? 18k-20k top end dps depending on the boss you measure it against.

Certainly much higher than any Sorc build and higher than magicka NBs, for example. Adjustments were certainly made to Templar DPS, no doubt.

I'm sorry, I missed the video where some guy gets his perfect rotation off on bloodspawn, absolutely safe while the tank holds aggro.

Under those circumstances it is possible. I'm talking about a real-world scenario where I would take Crystal Frags over Dark Flare, and Hardened Ward over Blazing Shield every time, if given the choice.

You mentioned DPS. DPS is a PvE measurement that means nothing in PvP. In PvE-land Templar is currently higher DPS than Sorc and magicka NB. That's a fact whichever boss you look at pretty much, including (but not limited to) Bloodspawn, yes.

Now in PvP it's burst that kills not DPS. As such Sorcs make better glass cannon builds than Templars and far more survivable thanks to Hardened Ward and Bolt Escape, no doubt about that. If that's the point you're are trying to make we are in agreement.

But since balancing changes are made both for PvE and PvP, I'm sure you understand that the particular change was made with PvE in mind. To allow more people to heal (not just Templars) and to enable templars to be DPSers too, instead of being pigeon-holed into being healers only.

Edit: I should have clarified. Stamina Templar is the DPS machine, not magicka.

RinaldoGandolphi

Its pretty sad i have more fun in BB then i do in any of the vet campaigns lately...:(

frozywozy

Magicka templars can do amazing bursts of damage just like a sorc can do with crystal frag. I have seen some magicka templars running 3200 spell damage and dealing 22-24k radiant destruction in 3 seconds on someone wearing 3pieces of nirnhoded and sitting at 28k spell resistances with self class shield up. The only different is that a templar has no way to spec into a glass cannon and be effective at AP/hour in large scale PvP because his only option is to either run in a large group with support healers or to use an invisbility potion, unlike the sorc who can stack more powerful shields and bolt escape.

Huntler

frozywozy wrote: »

Magicka templars can do amazing bursts of damage just like a sorc can do with crystal frag. I have seen some magicka templars running 3200 spell damage and dealing 22-24k radiant destruction in 3 seconds on someone wearing 3pieces of nirnhoded and sitting at 28k spell resistances with self class shield up. The only different is that a templar has no way to spec into a glass cannon and be effective at AP/hour in large scale PvP because his only option is to either run in a large group with support healers or to use an invisbility potion, unlike the sorc who can stack more powerful shields and bolt escape.

Note: Numbers are impossible to get unless in execute range.

Kind of a silly comparison when people are hitting others with non execute abilities all over the place for similar dps (wrecking blow, frags, dark flare, snipe, etc.).

FireCowCommando

With the changes implemented in 1.6, i totally agree with what you are saying. I feel they need to decrease the damage output in general, as well as give people the options to choose between being tanky against magicka, or physical.

With the option to choose what kind of defense you want, or doing even a hybrid between the two, it gives a greater availability of build diversity. And the best way to create greater build diversity WHILE increasing overall functionality of PvP is most easily achieved by decreasing the TTK.

They could do a sloppy generalized decrease in damage output, or sloppy generalized increase in overall defense. Or they could give a hybrid where they moderately choose one of those, or even both. But it should be balanced against a more complex system like some of the ideas you present here.

Erock25

Fix Nirnhorned .... increase HP buff in Cyro to 15k.

ToRelax

Don't reduce burst damage / increase HP before making sure players actually run our of resources... please...
And nirnhoned is stupidly OP, run 50k or more spell resist and don't die from magicka skills, gg.
Seriously, 10 seconds TTK against players who have no clue of the game is better than endless fights against same players you'd be killing in 10 seconds in 1.5 already.

frozywozy

Huntler wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Magicka templars can do amazing bursts of damage just like a sorc can do with crystal frag. I have seen some magicka templars running 3200 spell damage and dealing 22-24k radiant destruction in 3 seconds on someone wearing 3pieces of nirnhoded and sitting at 28k spell resistances with self class shield up. The only different is that a templar has no way to spec into a glass cannon and be effective at AP/hour in large scale PvP because his only option is to either run in a large group with support healers or to use an invisbility potion, unlike the sorc who can stack more powerful shields and bolt escape.

Note: Numbers are impossible to get unless in execute range.

Kind of a silly comparison when people are hitting others with non execute abilities all over the place for similar dps (wrecking blow, frags, dark flare, snipe, etc.).

It is indeed silly that an execute ability hits as hard on a target full health than any normal abitilies like you just mentioned. Magicka templar damage is as viable as any magicka sorc damage in 1v1. Their survivability tho is much different. I'm gonna try to find recording of that templar who hit me that hard. Can't remember his name because it was at least 1month ago. It is rare to see templars stacking spell damage that high anyway because like I said, it is not very profitable.

Huntler

frozywozy wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Magicka templars can do amazing bursts of damage just like a sorc can do with crystal frag. I have seen some magicka templars running 3200 spell damage and dealing 22-24k radiant destruction in 3 seconds on someone wearing 3pieces of nirnhoded and sitting at 28k spell resistances with self class shield up. The only different is that a templar has no way to spec into a glass cannon and be effective at AP/hour in large scale PvP because his only option is to either run in a large group with support healers or to use an invisbility potion, unlike the sorc who can stack more powerful shields and bolt escape.

Note: Numbers are impossible to get unless in execute range.

Kind of a silly comparison when people are hitting others with non execute abilities all over the place for similar dps (wrecking blow, frags, dark flare, snipe, etc.).

It is indeed silly that an execute ability hits as hard on a target full health than any normal abitilies like you just mentioned. Magicka templar damage is as viable as any magicka sorc damage in 1v1. Their survivability tho is much different. I'm gonna try to find recording of that templar who hit me that hard. Can't remember his name because it was at least 1month ago. It is rare to see templars stacking spell damage that high anyway because like I said, it is not very profitable.

We agree there which is why for the most part templar magicka dps isn't viable in PvP. Its not that they can't hit hard, they absolutely can. But their survivability/mobility mechanics just can't cut it. Like you said, they got to run in a big group in which case really anybody can do good damage with a half decent build and spamming those fun normal attacks that all hit for 15-20k these days with a crit .

Templar heals are nice, but in 1.6 they don't really provide the benefit that something like a dodge roll or cheap, strong shield to pre-empt heavy damage. Heals are reactionary and aren't even strong enough to be on par with damage these days.... the shield and dodge roll however tend to be very cost effective.

technohic

Huntler wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Plenty of abilities stamina abilities doing more damage than Crystal fragments to people yet everyone wants to focus on a single ability in a rare scenario (someone stacking spell penetration, dual wield and spellpower) as a justification for breaking an entire damage mode.

People just get hit by one person for a ton, then use it as ammunition to say that specific class or spell does too much damage. But the real problem is there's just too many multipliers in this game that all stack with each other. If I was a templar I would run my exact same setup and probably 100-0 someone in a single radiant; could easily 1-shot someone with these stats with a heavy attack of a dest staff if I was a DK, as a NB the Focused Aims would be even more damage than I do now.

Removing the empower buff from the game is the first solution to the problem; if you want wrecking blow to add damage on your next attack that's fine, but make it add a flat amount of damage so it's not exponentially multiplied by every other multiplicative variable used to calculate damage in this game. At least take the empower buff away from Inner Light/Radiant Light. Make people actually entropy someone and come out of stealth if they want a 20% damage bonus on their snipe or frags.

Well, in all honesty a templar couldn't run your build because damage buffs don't act like that for radiant and in addition our shield is based off health, not magicka.... and it only lasts 6 seconds. A magicka glass canon templar doesn't really exist in the current meta because they'd get wrecked left and right. Thats not to say it isn't possible and is basically a rinse/repeat of entropy, dark flare, dark flare, radiant, but its basically a poor man's Sorc build (we can't get a double % damage buff from dark flare as well) since we don't have the synergy between our survivability and damage mechanic (as well as 0 escapes). Sorcs/NBs can afford glass canon because of their escape tools and ways of mitigating damage that simply don't exist for a class like magicka templar. Right now its very clear the powerhouses for mitigation are dodge roll and shields based off magicka, players get the best of both worlds. Strong mitigation countermeasures while maintaining maximum damage.


I like your thoughts on changing how empower works though. I think ZOS made a big mistake when they didn't realize how damage buffs could stack. They thought putting a % damage reduction on everyone in Cyrodiil would work at keeping burst in check (20% reduction), but when 1 buff immediately removes that measure while also allowing other buffs such as spell damage buffs (and certain other abilities not having to obey the minor/major buff status).... the cyrodiil debuff basically is pointless at that point. It makes it even more complicated because you can't just increase the debuff.... you only further force people to HAVE to stack those buffs or else nothing dies. Its not in a good place right now.

This is about the best I have seen it explained on where Templars trail behind in Magicka DPS in its current form. All this wanting to keep nirhoned based on sorc is ridiculous for how easy it is to raise that magicka defense. We don't need a duplicate situation with a physical resist version as all it would do is do the same to melee outside of WB and snipe spam.

If an ability needs balanced, that needs to be addressed, not covered up with more equally powerful tools otherwise you will just force more and more cookie cutter builds as people will have to be sorc to be magicka and have to use WB/Snipe to be stamina in this case.

EDIT: This is not to say any of those are OP. it could actually be a matter of the HP levels along with shielding that is requiring burst while sustained DPS has taken a back seat. Leaving nirhoned and then also coming up with a balancing physical resistance just further increases that problem IMO.

Joy_Division

Huntler wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Your suggestion has merit but the designers clearly wanted Spell Resist / Spell Penetration to be a common mechanic and not copy this with physical damage / resist. They wanted spell and physical to have some different mechanics and counterplay so I don't see them throwing their hands up in the air and abandoning this idea to solve the nirn "problem". I really dislike the idea that one armor trait is so much better than all the others that it becomes the only choice. On top of this, I have no problem adjusting my build and my game style to your build, the 5 skills you choose to put on a bar, your weapon choice, etc.. But I should not have to completely reorient my build because of a few armor traits that you can just slap on with little opportunity cost.

What the hell are you talking about? Where or in what world did they want spell resist/spell pen to be different from the physical counterpart? They use the EXACT same formulas, hardcaps, etc..... Since its so obvious I would love you to cite a source on that.

So I ask again... what the hell are you talking about?

I am not being facistious or insulting here. I find that your posts are often insightful and it is clear you have a very good understanding of the game. But is it that incredulous of a notion that you have to reply to me as if I am talking about a different game?

I know they use the same formulas and hardcaps. That does not mean ESO's gameplay teats them the same.

Think about it, there are many more options for a player to counter magic/spells than physical / stamina attacks.

• The light armor skill harness magicka completely absorbs X amount of spell damage and it useless Vs. physical attacks. The heavy armor comparable, immovable, does not make such a distinction and provides a generic increase to armor and spell resistance.
• Now look at the light armor skill tree - there are passives devoted entirely to spell resistance and spell penetration. Whereas the heavy armor tree offers a generic increase to physical and spell resistance while offering no passive to bypass armor. It should be noted that the medium armor passives, the line devoted to weapon damage dealers, also offers no physical penetration bonus.
• If you look at the weapon passives, all of them have generic X increase to damage or some bonus to some specific situation, such as distance (bows) or vs. CCed target (dual wield). The destruction staff offers a specific passive that increases it spell penetration without offering a similar generic damage increase.
• The is a specific Mundas stone devoted to spell penetration whereas the Stamina mundas stone once again offers a generic power bonus.
• In the champion system, there is a specific star I can pick that will increase my spell resistance (though one could, with many champion points, go through the trouble of increasing their specific light, medium, and heavy armor focii to gain a comparable effect).
• How many passives are the akin to the Templar's Balanced Warrior? It gives me the common theme of generic weapon damage and specific spell resistance. I can think of one, the DK scaled armor passive, which is a misnomer because it does not grant armor, rather spell resistance. I don't think there is a passive to increase armor at all.
• Spell users have readily available counter-play to all these means of defense, namely the aforementioned Apprentice Mundas stone, wearing 5 pieces of light armor, and a specific weapon trait that only helps penetrate a specific defense rather than a flat buff to damage.
• Stamina users options are much more restricted in this regard. They could take a star in the champion tree (naturally a comparable star exists for spell users), but it's effect is minor and requires considerable investment. Or a DK can use a specific morph of an ultimate that will work for 9 seconds. If there are other means that escape me at the moment, it is nothing comparable to the ease in which spell users can counter magic resistance.

The addition to Nirn and its specific spell penetration Vs. spell resistance mechanic was merely augmenting an existing facet in the game. Physical / armor are treated generically where it is difficult to gain specific strengths and weakness against it whereas spell attack vs defense is sort of a game within a game; one could more easily gain defenses against this form of attack and likewise penetrate those defenses.

Now I am not saying I agree with this gameplay philosophy, rather I am merely acknowledging it's existence and the implied intent behind it. I am also not denying there aren't exceptions: someone is bound to point out that bone shield only resists physical damage. OK, there is bone shield, but this is a short duration skill that must be activated and is has a more general survivalist component in its synergy - this one skill is in no way equivalent to the more enduring and general ways one can increase spell resistance.

Maybe it's not obvious - I never claimed it was - but I think the intent is not exactly hidden when contrasting how the game treats physical and magic attacks and defenses.

Huntler

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Your suggestion has merit but the designers clearly wanted Spell Resist / Spell Penetration to be a common mechanic and not copy this with physical damage / resist. They wanted spell and physical to have some different mechanics and counterplay so I don't see them throwing their hands up in the air and abandoning this idea to solve the nirn "problem". I really dislike the idea that one armor trait is so much better than all the others that it becomes the only choice. On top of this, I have no problem adjusting my build and my game style to your build, the 5 skills you choose to put on a bar, your weapon choice, etc.. But I should not have to completely reorient my build because of a few armor traits that you can just slap on with little opportunity cost.

What the hell are you talking about? Where or in what world did they want spell resist/spell pen to be different from the physical counterpart? They use the EXACT same formulas, hardcaps, etc..... Since its so obvious I would love you to cite a source on that.

So I ask again... what the hell are you talking about?

I am not being facistious or insulting here. I find that your posts are often insightful and it is clear you have a very good understanding of the game. But how can you not see this? Is it that incredulous of a notion that you have to reply to me as if I am talking about a different game?

I know they use the same formulas and hardcaps. That does not mean ESO's gameplay teats them the same.

Think about it, there are many more options for a player to counter magic/spells than physical stamina attacks.

• The light armor skill harness magicka completely absorbs X amount of spell damage and it useless Vs. physical attacks. The heavy armor comparable, immovable, does not make such a distinction and provides a generic increase to armor and spell resistance.
• Now look at the light armor skill tree - there are passives devoted entirely to spell resistance and spell penetration. Whereas the heavy armor tree offers a generic increase to physical and spell resistance while offering no passive to bypass armor. It should be noted that the medium armor passives, the line devoted to weapon damage dealers, also offers no physical penetration bonus.
• If you look at the weapon passives, all of them have generic X increase to damage or some bonus to some specific situation, such as distance (bows) or vs. CCed target (dual wield). The destruction staff offers a specific passive that increases it spell penetration without offering a similar generic damage increase.
• The is a specific Mundas stone devoted to spell penetration whereas the Stamina mundas stone once again offers a generic power bonus.
• In the champion system, there is a specific star I can pick that will increase my spell resistance whereas there is no such star for armor. (note: I am surprised there is a star to piece physical resistance, but naturally there is also one to bypass spells as normal).
• How many passives are the akin to the Templar's Balanced Warrior? It gives me the common theme of generic weapon damage and specific spell resistance. I can think of one, the DK scaled armor passive, which is a misnomer because it does not grant armor, rather spell resistance. I don't think there is a passive to increase armor at all.
• Spell users have readily available counter-play to all these means of defense, namely the aforementioned Apprentice Mundas stone, wearing 5 pieces of light armor, and a specific weapon trait that only helps penetrate a specific defense rather than a flat buff to damage.

The addition to Nirn and its specific spell penetration Vs. spell resistance mechanic was merely augmenting an existing mechanic in the game. Physical / armor are treated generically where it is difficult to gain specific strengths and weakness against it whereas spell attack vs defense is sort of a game within a game; one could more easily gain defenses against this form of attack and likewise penetrate those defenses.

Now I am not saying I agree with this gameplay philosophy, rather I am merely acknowledging it's existence and the implied intent behind it. I am also not denying there aren't exceptions: someone is bound to point out that bone shield only resists physical damage. OK, there is bone shield, but this is a short duration skill that must be activated and is has a more general survivalist component in its synergy - this one skill is in no way equivalent to the more enduring and general ways one can increase spell resistance.

Maybe it's not obvious - I never claimed it was - but I think the intent is not exactly hidden when contrasting how the game treats physical and magic attacks and defenses.

I'll go down your list.

1. The counterpart to harness magicka is not in the armor line, it is in the undaunted tree. Bone shield (absorbs only physical damage).

2. Yes light armor is the only penetration passive, but point for point technically the medium armor passive such as %incresed weapon damage is actually better (higher damage). It also does not suffer the negative of overpenetration.

3. You're right on the weapon passives, I'd assume that you chalk that up to them putting different flavors to each weapon, but you are welcome to draw from it as a point.

4. Once again you are right, no physical penetration mundus stone (although a few months ago they did come out saying they will be adding mundus stones to equalize such as having a stamina regen mundus, etc. etc.)

5. There is a champion system star that increases your armor, it just depends on which armor you are wearing. The sad thing here is the math is buggard and you can get 25% spell resist buff from champ, but only like ~18% from armor (lol thanks Zeni for making thing equal). Same problem with having a physical pen champ, but no flat damage reduction to counteract like magicka damage has.

6. I actually asked them in a meeting why Balanced Warrior did not also give spell damage when they homogenized a bunch of other passives to give both (and abilities). Their response was to bluntly put it would be overpowered as a passive, especially in terms of buffing templar heals from a skill line that isn't dedicated to healing (go figure).


While there are most definitely differences, I think I disagree with you on intent. I feel the intent of these differences we can see through how they have evolved from game intro. Stam/physical damage builds sucked for a long time. They tweaked the medium armor passives. They tweaked in game sets. They kept stacking the deck until 1.6 in which case now we have these disparities.

Cody

Nirnhoned Is broken, that much is true.
however, people saying that fixing it will balance the game are wrong. fixing nirnhoned will not sort out:
infinite resource builds
insane burst damage("resource management is king" my a**. between these two issues, there is no needed resource management)
broken and/or useless abilities(Agony is a great example:( utterly useless)
pop imbalances
horrendous lag
rampant exploiting

yall get my point

dalgrimar

vortexman11 wrote: »

Hey guys, time for another post to get everyone to hate me due to my unpopular opinions.

So theres been ALOT of people asking for Nirnhoned to get fixed, Im guessing when you all say this you mean for it to work in the same was as reinforced and such where its on each armour piece. I'm going to explain why I don't see this as a good idea, and then feel free to attack me as I honestly love reading what you guys have to say.

I'd like to start off by saying I DO NOT want it to simply remain how it is, sure I don't want Nirnhoned changed but I do want to see changes in armour/weapon traits in general.

So, over the passed few weeks there have been two things that have caught my attention on the forums, one is the fact that stamina builds hit so insanely hard, and two is that magicka builds simply don't because of this little thing known as Nirnhoned. Everyone is saying that fixing nirnhoned will balance the game blablabla yaddayadda same old thing, but will it really balance the game? It wont stop people sniping you for almost 20k (Just yesterday I was hit by a focused aim for 19 573 while on my horse and wearing 7/7 reinforced heavy armour) , all it would add is people being able to do the same amount of damage but with magicka attacks. Are you guys really looking forward to getting one shot by Pixysticks? Thats why I do not see this as the solution.

Instead of Fixing/Nerfing/Whateveryouwanttocallit Nirnhoned, I believe they should put in a trait equivalent to nirnhoned but for physical resist BUT along with this, I would want to see changes to Sharpened/Infused so that theres an incentive for people who want to tank to wear Nirnhoned/Physical Resist Equivalent and for people who DPS to wear infused/sharpened.

The problem with the game right now is the fact that Nirnhoned allows people who DPS to be extremely tanky towards magicka users, basically what I said up there is that the answer is to give a better alternative so people who DPS wearing nirnhoned will be lacking damage compared to people who DPS wearing improved sharpened/infused traits.

You are trolling right?
Becouse all you just told makes no sense at all.
Also, 7/7 heavy?
If you get one shot by physical attacks in 7/7 heavy you do something seriously wrong.
Also, why u even run 7/7 hheavy?
I mean, it makes no sense at all, atleast go for 5 heavy 2 light/medium or whatever.

vortexman11

dalgrimar wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Hey guys, time for another post to get everyone to hate me due to my unpopular opinions.

So theres been ALOT of people asking for Nirnhoned to get fixed, Im guessing when you all say this you mean for it to work in the same was as reinforced and such where its on each armour piece. I'm going to explain why I don't see this as a good idea, and then feel free to attack me as I honestly love reading what you guys have to say.

I'd like to start off by saying I DO NOT want it to simply remain how it is, sure I don't want Nirnhoned changed but I do want to see changes in armour/weapon traits in general.

So, over the passed few weeks there have been two things that have caught my attention on the forums, one is the fact that stamina builds hit so insanely hard, and two is that magicka builds simply don't because of this little thing known as Nirnhoned. Everyone is saying that fixing nirnhoned will balance the game blablabla yaddayadda same old thing, but will it really balance the game? It wont stop people sniping you for almost 20k (Just yesterday I was hit by a focused aim for 19 573 while on my horse and wearing 7/7 reinforced heavy armour) , all it would add is people being able to do the same amount of damage but with magicka attacks. Are you guys really looking forward to getting one shot by Pixysticks? Thats why I do not see this as the solution.

Instead of Fixing/Nerfing/Whateveryouwanttocallit Nirnhoned, I believe they should put in a trait equivalent to nirnhoned but for physical resist BUT along with this, I would want to see changes to Sharpened/Infused so that theres an incentive for people who want to tank to wear Nirnhoned/Physical Resist Equivalent and for people who DPS to wear infused/sharpened.

The problem with the game right now is the fact that Nirnhoned allows people who DPS to be extremely tanky towards magicka users, basically what I said up there is that the answer is to give a better alternative so people who DPS wearing nirnhoned will be lacking damage compared to people who DPS wearing improved sharpened/infused traits.

You are trolling right?
Becouse all you just told makes no sense at all.
Also, 7/7 heavy?
If you get one shot by physical attacks in 7/7 heavy you do something seriously wrong.
Also, why u even run 7/7 hheavy?
I mean, it makes no sense at all, atleast go for 5 heavy 2 light/medium or whatever.

Uhh trolling because I gave an example of something that happened to me a few days ago and it was one sentence out of my entire post? I was in 7/7 heavy because I was testing out a new nightblade sap tank build...and all I was saying is that if people think heavy armour is a good counter to stamina damage, they're wrong.
Please don't call me out as a troll for giving a quick story of something that happened to me recently.

Agrippa_Invisus

vortexman11 wrote: »

dalgrimar wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Hey guys, time for another post to get everyone to hate me due to my unpopular opinions.

So theres been ALOT of people asking for Nirnhoned to get fixed, Im guessing when you all say this you mean for it to work in the same was as reinforced and such where its on each armour piece. I'm going to explain why I don't see this as a good idea, and then feel free to attack me as I honestly love reading what you guys have to say.

I'd like to start off by saying I DO NOT want it to simply remain how it is, sure I don't want Nirnhoned changed but I do want to see changes in armour/weapon traits in general.

So, over the passed few weeks there have been two things that have caught my attention on the forums, one is the fact that stamina builds hit so insanely hard, and two is that magicka builds simply don't because of this little thing known as Nirnhoned. Everyone is saying that fixing nirnhoned will balance the game blablabla yaddayadda same old thing, but will it really balance the game? It wont stop people sniping you for almost 20k (Just yesterday I was hit by a focused aim for 19 573 while on my horse and wearing 7/7 reinforced heavy armour) , all it would add is people being able to do the same amount of damage but with magicka attacks. Are you guys really looking forward to getting one shot by Pixysticks? Thats why I do not see this as the solution.

Instead of Fixing/Nerfing/Whateveryouwanttocallit Nirnhoned, I believe they should put in a trait equivalent to nirnhoned but for physical resist BUT along with this, I would want to see changes to Sharpened/Infused so that theres an incentive for people who want to tank to wear Nirnhoned/Physical Resist Equivalent and for people who DPS to wear infused/sharpened.

The problem with the game right now is the fact that Nirnhoned allows people who DPS to be extremely tanky towards magicka users, basically what I said up there is that the answer is to give a better alternative so people who DPS wearing nirnhoned will be lacking damage compared to people who DPS wearing improved sharpened/infused traits.

You are trolling right?
Becouse all you just told makes no sense at all.
Also, 7/7 heavy?
If you get one shot by physical attacks in 7/7 heavy you do something seriously wrong.
Also, why u even run 7/7 hheavy?
I mean, it makes no sense at all, atleast go for 5 heavy 2 light/medium or whatever.

Uhh trolling because I gave an example of something that happened to me a few days ago and it was one sentence out of my entire post? I was in 7/7 heavy because I was testing out a new nightblade sap tank build...and all I was saying is that if people think heavy armour is a good counter to stamina damage, they're wrong.
Please don't call me out as a troll for giving a quick story of something that happened to me recently.

Yeah. There are so many other reasons that Vort is a troll, it's not funny!

I mean, there was that time he was living under a bridge, with his van, down by the river.
Then there was that night in Bangkok, which makes a hard man humble.

And so on!

Ezareth

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Yeah. There are so many other reasons that Vort is a troll, it's not funny!

I mean, there was that time he was living under a bridge, with his van, down by the river.
Then there was that night in Bangkok, which makes a hard man humble.

And so on!

Yeah definite troll. This one time he just kept ressing the people I killed over and over and over for 15 minutes until eventually they overwhelmed me )=

Which brings me to another absurd balance adjustment they need to make. Subsecond Templar battle resses make some fights ridiculous. Hell player ressing in general is pretty ridiculous. Sometimes I'll be fighting a group of people and will kill one and the guy's corpse has just hit the ground and there is already someone bent over him ressing him. They should make it so that you can't be ressed for like 20-30 seconds after you've died or something. It's just stupid (and amusing at times) but something needs to be changed with it to penalize failure with more than a 3 second "timeout" that is your templar's travel time to your corpse.

Agrippa_Invisus

Ezareth wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Yeah. There are so many other reasons that Vort is a troll, it's not funny!

I mean, there was that time he was living under a bridge, with his van, down by the river.
Then there was that night in Bangkok, which makes a hard man humble.

And so on!

Yeah definite troll. This one time he just kept ressing the people I killed over and over and over for 15 minutes until eventually they overwhelmed me )=

Which brings me to another absurd balance adjustment they need to make. Subsecond Templar battle resses make some fights ridiculous. Hell player ressing in general is pretty ridiculous. Sometimes I'll be fighting a group of people and will kill one and the guy's corpse has just hit the ground and there is already someone bent over him ressing him. They should make it so that you can't be ressed for like 20-30 seconds after you've died or something. It's just stupid (and amusing at times) but something needs to be changed with it to penalize failure with more than a 3 second "timeout" that is your templar's travel time to your corpse.

The rezzing is rather ridiculous, yes.

I've been in situations where we're killing the same couple of people over and over and over again due to it.

Cody

Ezareth wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Yeah. There are so many other reasons that Vort is a troll, it's not funny!

I mean, there was that time he was living under a bridge, with his van, down by the river.
Then there was that night in Bangkok, which makes a hard man humble.

And so on!

Yeah definite troll. This one time he just kept ressing the people I killed over and over and over for 15 minutes until eventually they overwhelmed me )=

Which brings me to another absurd balance adjustment they need to make. Subsecond Templar battle resses make some fights ridiculous. Hell player ressing in general is pretty ridiculous. Sometimes I'll be fighting a group of people and will kill one and the guy's corpse has just hit the ground and there is already someone bent over him ressing him. They should make it so that you can't be ressed for like 20-30 seconds after you've died or something. It's just stupid (and amusing at times) but something needs to be changed with it to penalize failure with more than a 3 second "timeout" that is your templar's travel time to your corpse.

there should be a 30 second timer in my opinion. if the 30 seconds pass, you are force rezzed at the nearest keep