mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Scotia wrote: »

The problem isnt the shields its the fact they can be instant cast and two they can be repeatedly be cast, put a GCD on them or add a cast time, problem solved.

Wrecking blow have it scale less with your resource pools. Same with any other high damage spells that are over used. This will eventually happen but when.

If I can't recast my shields instantly at need, I die easily every time I'm attacked. It's that simple.

Light Armor is crap and dodge rolling more than once means I can't break free.

Idk only having 14k health may have something to do with it too. Hey though who needs health when you have instant shields huh?

Wrong question. The question you need to be asking is "Hey though who needs health when you have 0 damage mitigation, huh?" and the answer is...

My 7/7 Nightblade, who needs enough of a health pool to be able to use Healing Ward rather than getting instant killed before being able to cast it (larger health pool = time available to cast reactionary ward that is largely useless at full health; larger window to cast as "low health" and receive the bonus).

My 7/7 Light Templar, who needs enough of a health pool to make Blazing Shield into a reasonable defense, because running 14k HP would mean less than 5k shield and less than 3k explosions.

My 7/7 Light Sorcerer is pure Magicka though -- unlike the other two, get an instant cast shield that scales higher based on Magicka (rather than health) and is still at maximum effect while at full health (but stack it with Healing Ward in emergencies).

Do not personally have any objection to Sorcerer's use of shields though. It benefits my own greatly, and simply means that the classes have some degree of difference between them in playstyle instead of using homogeneous builds.
If Hardened Ward was scaling off of Health rather than Magicka, would likely build my Sorcerer to the same mix as my Nightblade and Templar for a combination of the two reasons.

Stahp

Who are you even talking about? Who runs 14k HP in Cyro? The glassier of Sorcs are 18-19k. I run 21k.

When Fire Trebs do 13k + 6k insta-damage, who runs less than that? Cause I have certainly not seen anyone.

EDIT: And a lot of magicka NBs go for Whitestrakes obviously, so they can also majorly ignore HP and only use Healing Ward on top of the Whitestrake's shield.

I also have about 22k HP on my sorc in Cyrodiil. Our shields aren't that good lol.

if you stacked mage in gold gear i think 40k would be near the ceiling (slotting bound aegis and mage light, as a he). 10k mag = about 3.5k in hard ward. also you have no spell dmg bonus's, or regen and would be eschewing some 5 sets to acheive such pwnage shield stax.

This fantasy is hilarious.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Scotia wrote: »

The problem isnt the shields its the fact they can be instant cast and two they can be repeatedly be cast, put a GCD on them or add a cast time, problem solved.

Wrecking blow have it scale less with your resource pools. Same with any other high damage spells that are over used. This will eventually happen but when.

If I can't recast my shields instantly at need, I die easily every time I'm attacked. It's that simple.

Light Armor is crap and dodge rolling more than once means I can't break free.

Idk only having 14k health may have something to do with it too. Hey though who needs health when you have instant shields huh?

Wrong question. The question you need to be asking is "Hey though who needs health when you have 0 damage mitigation, huh?" and the answer is no one. I like how after light got nerfed to be nothing but paper, people expect me to stack health. Why should I, so you can kill me even easier?

I think dodge-rolling is likely to get nerfed way before they even think about touching wards. That would be both fair and rather sweet too

you should be expected to sacrifice something if you want to survive in melee range. basically choosing light armour should be a choice to play at range as your means of survival. thats how it works in every game ever made like this. heavy armour is the choice of melee range..
this is the problem. folk are so used to wearing the armour thats made for being ranged dps and wanting to have the survivability of melee range armour..

right now this is achievable if your a sorc by shield stacking .. but it totally negates the whole point of why they actually fixed armour to reflect that.

the reason why sorcs got bolt escape, and why they have similar abilities traditionally in other games. like blink (the more traditional name for bolt) is because they traditionally need to be able to stay at distance to survive.

ESO has let light armour wearers come to expect that their choice of armour won't effect their survivability at all cos it didn't till 1.6. so basically if you think light armour isn't giving you enough survivability, and you want to play in melee range wear heavy armour ..

You're showing an outstanding lack of understanding about how the game works.

First off Light Armor is the worst kind of armor for being melee. If you played one you 'd know but you don't, so tell me more. Have you seen anyone actually tanking in light? or just casting shields while bolt escaping away?

Secondly, you cannot stay ranged. Every medium or heavy armor build has a gap closer with longer range than your escape. If every time smb got close you Bolt Escaped backwards, that's all you'd be doing all day. And you'd just be an easy kill for all the Crit Rushers. AND everybody would be still asking to nerf Bolt Escape (again) because that's all you do apparently.

So if Heavy is the choice for melee, as you say, how come Medium is awesome for both melee and range? What's the disadvantage of medium at the moment? It's got great heals, great burst, great damage avoidance and mitigation.

Answer: none.

Medium is currently better than light in every way. But keep asking for nerfs to light, cause you know that's the reason you die in PvP. All light armor builds with shields are god-mode to you

As for @DDuke and his 6-7k shields..... Sure, when dodge roll costs stamina users 8-10k stamina, I'm all for it. Then I'll go heavy armour and still melt faces

i understand exactly how the game is working.. it's hardly rocket science. what i,m pointing out are flaws within the way it works making it a simple choice right now stack shields or stack burst,, simple... nothing more than that. if you think thats awesome rounded gameplay and nothings wrong perhaps you should take a wider view.

you say i ask for nerfs to LA? where exactly did i say that? YOU were the one who said being able to perma-stack shields to the point where they utterly negate any drawback light armour wearing should by design is how it should be. so basically you want shields to allow you to wear light armour but suffer no loss in survivability from doing so.

and you say medium is best.. well only for stamina. its hardly the best for magika is it? and its where it should be in terms of the stamina dps builds.. less mitigation than heavy but better for stamina dps.

you talk about medium having great burst and great heals? what type of armour can you get that heals you and hits stuff.

dont make the mistake of trying to say ive not played this or that. ive played this game as much as most here. and ive got all 4 classes into vet mode.. ( 2 v14 and a v5 and v2) i know how the classses work.

Hehe, a buff stealing ability, that could be fun.

DDuke wrote: »

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

First DDuke 3600 CPs isn't "Easy" or even remotely possible. The highest guy in the game right now is a bit over 250 points now....that means 100 points into Bastion to get a 25% increase to hardened ward isn't even possible, yet alone the extra 10,000 magicka points you get from putting points into the mage tree. As we're trying to point out here, getting 40K magicka is probably not even possible and even if it was you still couldn't cast a 15K Hardened ward with it (Which was originally 16K). 40K Magicka and say 50 points into Bastion (which is more than 99% of sorcs have right now) would get you slightly over a 13K Hardened ward.

The only strawman in my arguments were the ones that you keep trying to put there. It's almost like you read some website on logical fallacies and are just trying to randomly assign them to people without understanding the concepts.

I speak in facts only, I have no interest in twisting them to support my own beliefs. I do however make mistakes (such as confusing your surprise attack statement with ambush because that's why I see so many NBs try to do) on occasion and as soon as I'm made aware of a mistake I admit it.

Next, Damage shields do not cost twice the magicka it takes to break them. My 11K Hardened ward costs me 2100 magicka and that is *with* 36% Magicka cost reduction which few sorcs are running. I have single wrecking blows or lethal arrows take out my shields in 1 hit, with wrecking blow I've had it take out my shield and a good chunk of my health. Do either of these abilities when considering full medium armor, 20% weapon cost reduction, and equivalent cost reduction sets cost more stamina? I'd almost bet it costs less for most people. Hell a Crystal Fragment proc boosted with Might of the Guild will break through my hardened ward in a single hit even without critting and that only costs like 800 magicka.

Saying Damage shields are being used by the magicka builds is leading to a lack of diversity in PvP (What is with this desire for Diversity anyways, what is the an EOE or something?) is like saying all of the stamina builds dodge rolling when attacks is leading to a lack of diversity.

Damage shields DO undermine the effectiveness of crit yet they also have a bleed through effect when they are broken that negates any armor and protection the player does have. They also absorb a finite amount of damage where a dodge roll blocks an infinite amount of damage from most abilities and block reduces the damage from an infinite number of the majority of attacks. Each defensive mechanism is the *Design* for each armor type to use as a defense mechanism and they all have their tradeoffs and benefits.

I'm also very aware of how to counter dodge roll and against a good player spamming nothing dodge roll right now I can't kill them and I'm fine with that. I'm not going to get upset because there are people I can't kill 1 v 1 because they also can't kill me 1 v 1 and this in an AvAvA game.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.
• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.
• This, I will grant you, does have some merit. That being said, it must be acknowledged that shields themselves undermine the user's defense capability as they provide zero damage mitigation. These two aspects taken together, which of course you obviously exclude one because that's just your MO, might be a wash. I do think damage shields should always count for "hitting" the target (ultimate regen, procs, etc.) and should not way prevent secondary effects on the user (CC, DoTs - though the DoT should damage the shield, burning, etc.), just to be clear.

While also being clear, I will say when the 1.6 PTS came out, I was one of the people who advocated that PvP needed to play itself out before the theory that Sorc's unique ability of having its shield based on magicka was too strong or too much of an anomaly. Having played a sorc myself and seen Cyrodiil for over a month now, I have come around to the position that this uniqueness is a bit much. I understand - and lament - that a sorcerer has no self heal, but a light armored templar, who relies on a shield every bit as much for survival as a sorcerer, has no escapability. A sorcerer can make the argument that a templar can breathe of life herself out of a low health situation. I would counter sometimes...noticeably less often than bolt escape. And while a sorcerer does not have a heal, they can access one by picking a specific weapon whereas my templar cannot access bolt escape. I am not convinced that sorcerers are ESO special flowers deserving of more pandering than the other three classes and see no compelling gameplay reason why their shield should somehow be scaled differently than the other classes. When the patch notes came out for 1.6, for all the complaints that were made against sorcerers, I noticed that *every* single skill I used in PvP was getting a buff (with the exception of Negate). All of them. If sorcerers were poor at sustained DPS and half of their skills pointless, when combined with the 1.5 health buff and soft cap on magicka, their shields scaling off magicka didn't really make much difference. Now it does.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

No 50K is not even remotely possible with Necropotence unless you were rocking all 3600 CPs for the bonus 10K magicka then it is doable.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

I break damage shields all the time by stacking projectiles. You can do that easily with bow and we both know our "tooltip" damage is not what we actually will damage for when we need it. Getting above a base 10K hit with snipe in legendary gearing isn't all that difficult.

Yes getting through 10K shields with surprise attacks is not easy and it really shouldn't be what you're using unless there are other people beating on the Sorc. If you want to 1 v 1 someone with a specific build it often requires that you have a countering build. I can't kill every player 1 v 1 with the build I run around in Cyrodiil with, you shouldn't be able to either.

Arguing about 16 k wards is just far from reality. Far more so than 2500+ stam reg perma dodge builds. I am reaching 118xx myself. That shield strengh is desperately needed once more than one opponent decides to Hit me with more than an auto attack - to even have time to react.

Before they rebalance shields for 1v1 encounters i would actually like to see an improvement to small scale and grp survivability for all light armor builds because they are not vaible in that regard am. I would like to play a caster with my friends and not solo kite around them bc i have no grp support whatsoever (i dont use healing ward bc i think its bs) and light armor is not healable.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Crits should be possible on blocking targets, they should do extra damage and then block reductions should kick in.

With regards to max magicka, @Ezareth I've had 43.5K easy without undaunted passives too and non-maxed out gear (epic enchants, epic quality etc). and I was missing 3% more stats from undaunted. I'd say 50K is possible with 500 or so CPs and in full legendary gear/enchants.

But, it's totally useless so I don't see why would anyone do it just for the sake of having that much magica. Your regens will be bad, your damage won't be much higher than if you were stacking spell damage. Your build will be awfully bad for anything except maybe duels vs certain types of opponents and so on.

@LegendaryMage

I'm certain a max spellpower build will do far more damage than a max magicka build with all else being equal, especially since Major Sorcery is multiplicative with Spellpower, not magicka.

As far as Magicka percentage increase stacking, the effects have diminishing returns (as a percentage of your overall magicka) not increasing so once you get the highest possible base magicka the increases for stacking additional percentage increases are less effective. That extra 3% wouldn't be 3% of 43.5K, it'd be 3% of your base which I'd assume is something like 28K or so.

That said, 43.5K is hardly easy. You'd be wearing Necromance with your toggle abilities. I don't see how that'd even be useful in duels but I'm no expert on duels so I'll take your word on it.

Nice thread Necro BTW :P~

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

No 50K is not even remotely possible with Necropotence unless you were rocking all 3600 CPs for the bonus 10K magicka then it is doable.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

I break damage shields all the time by stacking projectiles. You can do that easily with bow and we both know our "tooltip" damage is not what we actually will damage for when we need it. Getting above a base 10K hit with snipe in legendary gearing isn't all that difficult.

Yes getting through 10K shields with surprise attacks is not easy and it really shouldn't be what you're using unless there are other people beating on the Sorc. If you want to 1 v 1 someone with a specific build it often requires that you have a countering build. I can't kill every player 1 v 1 with the build I run around in Cyrodiil with, you shouldn't be able to either.

Well, that is kind of the problem isn't it?

You should be able to beat anyone 1v1 if you're the better player.
Of course there should be favourable & unfavourable match-ups, but no impossible ones.

However, if someone can just hit one button & repeatedly completely absorb even your execute dmg (when you are fully specced for damage), then something is just simply broken.

Also, if you take a look at the dmg shield & infine dodge spam going on, you should realize there's a severe lack of diversity in the game, and the reason for that is the fact that those builds are too strong (or other builds aren't strong enough).

your talking about Dk's Reflective scales against sorc damage right? Dks hit this one button repeatedly and are able to negate most sorc damage, by reflecting it back in there face. so hardened ward is not fair that it just absorbs attacks, but dk's reflect nearly everything a sorc throws at them must be extremely unfair then right?