why shield stacking damages the whole meta

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You might want to reopen one of those threads, see how big shields I was able to attain & subtract 15% (the amount dmg shield strength was nerfed in Cyrodiil) from that.

You'll quickly notice that Hardened Ward still grants you a 16k~ shield with the correct build (probably people have found a way to get it even higher) with 70 CPs (there are people with 150+ now, which should be taken into account).
That+Healing Ward = 20-30k worth of shields (I did use the plural there, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone managed to get single Hardened Ward for 20k+, after all it's possible with Blazing Shield atleast).

It is still a fact that casting shields is significantly more cost efficient than casting offensive abilities, and that people are able to spam them non-stop.

That said, the game atleast has other broken stuff to counter that broken stuff (such as 40-50k instant burst which you'll see in my next video).
It's sad that you have to use one extreme to counter another, but atleast the game is still playable for those not fond of spamming shields or dodge rolling 24/7 in PvP.

I'm one of those 150+ CP people.

In Cyrodiil my hardened ward displays just over 8k right now and I'm fully magicka specced with over 50 points into bastion right now and +15% or so to shields. My shield gives me just under 11k. No one has anywhere remotely close to a 16k hardened ward. My base healing ward is almost exactly 4k. So a sorc easily in the top 1% of sorcs in gearing and champion points is able to stack 15k in shields. The healing ward can be up to 16k if it was cast at very low health. Let's keep things relative here. I was grouped with a sorc last night who had all his champion in spell resistance and crit reduction. There are a ton of players who aren't stacking bastion who dont even understand or care about the math behind everything.

If you're spamming ambush solo against a sorc you're just a bad player. I dont think ive ever died to a nb doing that and those NBs have always been the easiest to kill. Shields are the direct counter to that style of play so I can understand why you'd want them nerfed.

Well, just by opening the first video on your channel, I can tell you're below 30k magicka. No wonder your shields are "only" 11k.

There are sorcs running around with 30k++, and it's actually possible to reach up to 40-50k magicka by using certain build/gear.

As for "spamming Ambush", I don't know where you're getting that idea

Ambush->Surprise Attack (or Soul Harvest when available) deals considerable amount more damage, as does a certain wombo combo (which I'll be giving away in my next video) which is pretty much instagibbing anyone, shield stacked or not. Maybe you're mistaking me for someone else?

But hey, nice strawman

And those people would be called Emperor.....40-50k. What a joke.

I'm ahead of the CP curve, a High Elf, and have almost exactly 28k magicka on my harness bar ( which includes a shield with legendary magicka enchant). I have full legendary VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants( infused on 2 large pieces), full purple vr14 rings/neck with magicka trait and out 6 possible +magicka set bonus traits I have 2. I have every single attribute into magicka.

It would be possible to hit 38k or so by switching to mage mundus, 6/6 possible magicka set bonuses with a crappy togglemancer build and all infused/divines plus vr10 blue magicka food....but who would want to and who is even doing this? You'd have garbage for regen, garbage for spell power...you might be able to pull of a 16k ward if you also had as many CPs as I do into bastion but ive yet to see a sorc in Cyrodiil running that garbage (please step forward if you're one of those sorcs running 38k magicka or more with 150+ CPs) but you'd die quickly in any sustained fight and hit for less than I do (which isn't all that hard) .

Straw man indeed....

I said ambush spam because you said it'd take 3 ambushes to break through a shield. I actually see so many NBs try this its laughable.

Shields are supposed to cost less than offensive abilities...the same as heals. If they didnt what would be the point of defensive abilities? Ive seen a single dodge roll bypass probably 80k in damage. Is that OP? No, by design defense must be stronger than offense or this game becomes call of duty.

eventide03b14a_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Scotia wrote: »

The problem isnt the shields its the fact they can be instant cast and two they can be repeatedly be cast, put a GCD on them or add a cast time, problem solved.

Wrecking blow have it scale less with your resource pools. Same with any other high damage spells that are over used. This will eventually happen but when.

If I can't recast my shields instantly at need, I die easily every time I'm attacked. It's that simple.

Light Armor is crap and dodge rolling more than once means I can't break free.

Idk only having 14k health may have something to do with it too. Hey though who needs health when you have instant shields huh?

Wrong question. The question you need to be asking is "Hey though who needs health when you have 0 damage mitigation, huh?" and the answer is...

My 7/7 Nightblade, who needs enough of a health pool to be able to use Healing Ward rather than getting instant killed before being able to cast it (larger health pool = time available to cast reactionary ward that is largely useless at full health; larger window to cast as "low health" and receive the bonus).

My 7/7 Light Templar, who needs enough of a health pool to make Blazing Shield into a reasonable defense, because running 14k HP would mean less than 5k shield and less than 3k explosions.

My 7/7 Light Sorcerer is pure Magicka though -- unlike the other two, get an instant cast shield that scales higher based on Magicka (rather than health) and is still at maximum effect while at full health (but stack it with Healing Ward in emergencies).

Do not personally have any objection to Sorcerer's use of shields though. It benefits my own greatly, and simply means that the classes have some degree of difference between them in playstyle instead of using homogeneous builds.
If Hardened Ward was scaling off of Health rather than Magicka, would likely build my Sorcerer to the same mix as my Nightblade and Templar for a combination of the two reasons.

Stahp

Who are you even talking about? Who runs 14k HP in Cyro? The glassier of Sorcs are 18-19k. I run 21k.

When Fire Trebs do 13k + 6k insta-damage, who runs less than that? Cause I have certainly not seen anyone.

EDIT: And a lot of magicka NBs go for Whitestrakes obviously, so they can also majorly ignore HP and only use Healing Ward on top of the Whitestrake's shield.

I also have about 22k HP on my sorc in Cyrodiil. Our shields aren't that good lol.

DDuke

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You might want to reopen one of those threads, see how big shields I was able to attain & subtract 15% (the amount dmg shield strength was nerfed in Cyrodiil) from that.

You'll quickly notice that Hardened Ward still grants you a 16k~ shield with the correct build (probably people have found a way to get it even higher) with 70 CPs (there are people with 150+ now, which should be taken into account).
That+Healing Ward = 20-30k worth of shields (I did use the plural there, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone managed to get single Hardened Ward for 20k+, after all it's possible with Blazing Shield atleast).

It is still a fact that casting shields is significantly more cost efficient than casting offensive abilities, and that people are able to spam them non-stop.

That said, the game atleast has other broken stuff to counter that broken stuff (such as 40-50k instant burst which you'll see in my next video).
It's sad that you have to use one extreme to counter another, but atleast the game is still playable for those not fond of spamming shields or dodge rolling 24/7 in PvP.

I'm one of those 150+ CP people.

In Cyrodiil my hardened ward displays just over 8k right now and I'm fully magicka specced with over 50 points into bastion right now and +15% or so to shields. My shield gives me just under 11k. No one has anywhere remotely close to a 16k hardened ward. My base healing ward is almost exactly 4k. So a sorc easily in the top 1% of sorcs in gearing and champion points is able to stack 15k in shields. The healing ward can be up to 16k if it was cast at very low health. Let's keep things relative here. I was grouped with a sorc last night who had all his champion in spell resistance and crit reduction. There are a ton of players who aren't stacking bastion who dont even understand or care about the math behind everything.

If you're spamming ambush solo against a sorc you're just a bad player. I dont think ive ever died to a nb doing that and those NBs have always been the easiest to kill. Shields are the direct counter to that style of play so I can understand why you'd want them nerfed.

Well, just by opening the first video on your channel, I can tell you're below 30k magicka. No wonder your shields are "only" 11k.

There are sorcs running around with 30k++, and it's actually possible to reach up to 40-50k magicka by using certain build/gear.

As for "spamming Ambush", I don't know where you're getting that idea

Ambush->Surprise Attack (or Soul Harvest when available) deals considerable amount more damage, as does a certain wombo combo (which I'll be giving away in my next video) which is pretty much instagibbing anyone, shield stacked or not. Maybe you're mistaking me for someone else?

But hey, nice strawman

And those people would be called Emperor.....40-50k. What a joke.

I'm ahead of the CP curve, a High Elf, and have almost exactly 28k magicka on my harness bar ( which includes a shield with legendary magicka enchant). I have full legendary VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants( infused on 2 large pieces), full purple vr14 rings/neck with magicka trait and out 6 possible +magicka set bonus traits I have 2. I have every single attribute into magicka.

It would be possible to hit 38k or so by switching to mage mundus, 6/6 possible magicka set bonuses with a crappy togglemancer build and all infused/divines plus vr10 blue magicka food....but who would want to and who is even doing this? You'd have garbage for regen, garbage for spell power...you might be able to pull of a 16k ward if you also had as many CPs as I do into bastion but ive yet to see a sorc in Cyrodiil running that garbage (please step forward if you're one of those sorcs running 38k magicka or more with 150+ CPs) but you'd die quickly in any sustained fight and hit for less than I do (which isn't all that hard) .

Straw man indeed....

I said ambush spam because you said it'd take 3 ambushes to break through a shield. I actually see so many NBs try this its laughable.

Shields are supposed to cost less than offensive abilities...the same as heals. If they didnt what would be the point of defensive abilities? Ive seen a single dodge roll bypass probably 80k in damage. Is that OP? No, by design defense must be stronger than offense or this game becomes call of duty.

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

I've come across multiple Sorcs able to throw curse etc at me before I get their 20-30k shields down (takes 2-3 Surprise Attacks minimum as they can't crit). There's plenty of time to DPS.

From previous page, and you can see I have not edited the post.

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

And no, defense does not have to be stronger than offense in any game. That is simply bad game design.

Just go look at how other more succesfull MMOs handle things.

Valnas

if you stacked mage in gold gear i think 40k would be near the ceiling (slotting bound aegis and mage light, as a he). 10k mag = about 3.5k in hard ward. also you have no spell dmg bonus's, or regen and would be eschewing some 5 sets to acheive such pwnage shield stax.

This fantasy is hilarious.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

From previous page, and you can see I have not edited the post.

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

And no, defense does not have to be stronger than offense in any game. That is simply bad game design.

Just go look at how other more succesfull MMOs handle things.

50K is just not possible. 40K may be possible but I don't know *anyone* running that much magicka and I'd say I know a good portion of the top PvP sorcs in NA. If someone is running around with 40K magicka they are probably one of those terrible PvE sorcs who decided to bring their trial gear into Cyrodiil for "Easy AP". As I pointed out, pushing your magicka that high actually gimps you far more than it could help. Even me Pushing my magicka to 35K would cost me far more than it is worth (which is why I haven't done so). Me having "only" 28K Magicka is the "tradeoff" for me being able to spam shields along with the fact I have 15K health or so depending on the campaign and emp buffs.

That said even *with* over 45K Magicka and *max* Bastion Champion points you still wont have 16K Hardened wards. You'd have a little over 15K as evidenced by the very post you're quoting: (Note this is in 1.6.2 pre cyrodiil-damage shield nerf)

DDuke wrote: »

PTS Templates, one is a Breton Sorc with all points in magicka, another an Imperial NB with all points in stamina. Both have 3600 CPs allocated.
Sorc is wearing light armour template gear, while NB is wearing the medium one.

3600 CP gives you an absurd amount of magicka that isn't even possible otherwise. The point is you can't go around saying sorcs are running around with 16K Hardened wards when *most* of them in Cyrodiil have half of that. I haven't even seen a sorc admit they have more than my 11K Hardened ward yet. That's like these morons running around quoting the highest numbers they've heard a sorc can do as if that were the norm for every spell in every circumstance. 16K Hardened Wards, 25K crystal frags, endless magicka etc. Hell my Power overload with 3600 champion points crit for 25K on PTS. Let's start quoting that. It's just absurd.

You were right on the Ambush/Surprise attack mixup, I should have reread *that* quote instead of going off of memory.

And if Dodge roll is shut down so quick why do I see extremely skillfull players making it out of sure death situations using it otherwise? Players like AOE_Barbeque, Aetcharian(sp), Ebonheart Templar etc turn dodge rolling into beast mode. I'm not saying it is OP, it's fine, but don't try to downplay it because this buggy game is buggy.

hamon

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Scotia wrote: »

The problem isnt the shields its the fact they can be instant cast and two they can be repeatedly be cast, put a GCD on them or add a cast time, problem solved.

Wrecking blow have it scale less with your resource pools. Same with any other high damage spells that are over used. This will eventually happen but when.

If I can't recast my shields instantly at need, I die easily every time I'm attacked. It's that simple.

Light Armor is crap and dodge rolling more than once means I can't break free.

Idk only having 14k health may have something to do with it too. Hey though who needs health when you have instant shields huh?

Wrong question. The question you need to be asking is "Hey though who needs health when you have 0 damage mitigation, huh?" and the answer is no one. I like how after light got nerfed to be nothing but paper, people expect me to stack health. Why should I, so you can kill me even easier?

I think dodge-rolling is likely to get nerfed way before they even think about touching wards. That would be both fair and rather sweet too

you should be expected to sacrifice something if you want to survive in melee range. basically choosing light armour should be a choice to play at range as your means of survival. thats how it works in every game ever made like this. heavy armour is the choice of melee range..
this is the problem. folk are so used to wearing the armour thats made for being ranged dps and wanting to have the survivability of melee range armour..

right now this is achievable if your a sorc by shield stacking .. but it totally negates the whole point of why they actually fixed armour to reflect that.

the reason why sorcs got bolt escape, and why they have similar abilities traditionally in other games. like blink (the more traditional name for bolt) is because they traditionally need to be able to stay at distance to survive.

ESO has let light armour wearers come to expect that their choice of armour won't effect their survivability at all cos it didn't till 1.6. so basically if you think light armour isn't giving you enough survivability, and you want to play in melee range wear heavy armour ..

You're showing an outstanding lack of understanding about how the game works.

First off Light Armor is the worst kind of armor for being melee. If you played one you 'd know but you don't, so tell me more. Have you seen anyone actually tanking in light? or just casting shields while bolt escaping away?

Secondly, you cannot stay ranged. Every medium or heavy armor build has a gap closer with longer range than your escape. If every time smb got close you Bolt Escaped backwards, that's all you'd be doing all day. And you'd just be an easy kill for all the Crit Rushers. AND everybody would be still asking to nerf Bolt Escape (again) because that's all you do apparently.

So if Heavy is the choice for melee, as you say, how come Medium is awesome for both melee and range? What's the disadvantage of medium at the moment? It's got great heals, great burst, great damage avoidance and mitigation.

Answer: none.

Medium is currently better than light in every way. But keep asking for nerfs to light, cause you know that's the reason you die in PvP. All light armor builds with shields are god-mode to you

As for @DDuke and his 6-7k shields..... Sure, when dodge roll costs stamina users 8-10k stamina, I'm all for it. Then I'll go heavy armour and still melt faces

i understand exactly how the game is working.. it's hardly rocket science. what i,m pointing out are flaws within the way it works making it a simple choice right now stack shields or stack burst,, simple... nothing more than that. if you think thats awesome rounded gameplay and nothings wrong perhaps you should take a wider view.

you say i ask for nerfs to LA? where exactly did i say that? YOU were the one who said being able to perma-stack shields to the point where they utterly negate any drawback light armour wearing should by design is how it should be. so basically you want shields to allow you to wear light armour but suffer no loss in survivability from doing so.

and you say medium is best.. well only for stamina. its hardly the best for magika is it? and its where it should be in terms of the stamina dps builds.. less mitigation than heavy but better for stamina dps.

you talk about medium having great burst and great heals? what type of armour can you get that heals you and hits stuff.

dont make the mistake of trying to say ive not played this or that. ive played this game as much as most here. and ive got all 4 classes into vet mode.. ( 2 v14 and a v5 and v2) i know how the classses work.

hamon

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

i dont normally debate with folk who use terms like "entitled and noobies" cos it generally shows a lack of maturity or intellect. that and an inflated ego . however i,ll endulge you this time by looking at your points above

so basically if you have nothing more that immature comments about "entitlement" to add, perhaps just let the adults talk

You have mistaken immaturity with irritation, understandable, however i did state i detested using that phrase.

Irritation on how many threads there are of this, even with the clear and present majority of non-sorc's and sorc's alike that oppose these threads, and the minimal that support in comparison. Its clear there is no problem with wards or rolling. You could have a hundred threads of rolling or wards, but if there are even more commentating on those threads that disagree, I fail to see the argument of the original posters

You have also misunderstood my class explanations, nitpicking what you can to put down another commentator
the class explanations merely showed example that the normal class systems do not apply, a sorc in medium or heavy armor playing the tank, it happens, a templar in medium or light playing the thief. again happens etc etc.This was meant to illustrate that there are a untold amount of builds and styles to play, not only that, you do not know what the other person is using as a build at first glance. Recurring patterns can be studied, researched, and countered easily. the unwillingness to do so is what i was showing my frustration at.

It does not change my opinion that many who call for nerfs are 'newbs' simply because they are unaware of this fact or choose to ignore it in favor of the 'entitled' route, which is more often than not, calling for nerfs when there is truly nothing wrong. This has lead to many unwanted changes to the vast majority of players, most of which do not follow the forums.

Irritation may have colored my text in a easily misunderstood manner, But i remain true to this point:

Before calling nerf, play the game, get better at the game, attempt to adapt and overcome. Humankind went through dark times 'praying' for 'nerfs' to the gods, when they could have instead worked to better themselves. No benevolent entity is going to help you. You are Human, Humans Adapt, Humans overcome.

humans also read the OP and understand, i asked for no nerf's , i said things like a purge would allow other formof game play apart from stack shields and stack burst.... or leave. which is how its going very quickly.

technohic

meh. Some shields need a buff if you ask me. Like duration and strenth of radiant ward so it has a more defensive role than blazing shield.

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

Domander

Hehe, a buff stealing ability, that could be fun.

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

First DDuke 3600 CPs isn't "Easy" or even remotely possible. The highest guy in the game right now is a bit over 250 points now....that means 100 points into Bastion to get a 25% increase to hardened ward isn't even possible, yet alone the extra 10,000 magicka points you get from putting points into the mage tree. As we're trying to point out here, getting 40K magicka is probably not even possible and even if it was you still couldn't cast a 15K Hardened ward with it (Which was originally 16K). 40K Magicka and say 50 points into Bastion (which is more than 99% of sorcs have right now) would get you slightly over a 13K Hardened ward.

The only strawman in my arguments were the ones that you keep trying to put there. It's almost like you read some website on logical fallacies and are just trying to randomly assign them to people without understanding the concepts.

I speak in facts only, I have no interest in twisting them to support my own beliefs. I do however make mistakes (such as confusing your surprise attack statement with ambush because that's why I see so many NBs try to do) on occasion and as soon as I'm made aware of a mistake I admit it.

Next, Damage shields do not cost twice the magicka it takes to break them. My 11K Hardened ward costs me 2100 magicka and that is *with* 36% Magicka cost reduction which few sorcs are running. I have single wrecking blows or lethal arrows take out my shields in 1 hit, with wrecking blow I've had it take out my shield and a good chunk of my health. Do either of these abilities when considering full medium armor, 20% weapon cost reduction, and equivalent cost reduction sets cost more stamina? I'd almost bet it costs less for most people. Hell a Crystal Fragment proc boosted with Might of the Guild will break through my hardened ward in a single hit even without critting and that only costs like 800 magicka.

Saying Damage shields are being used by the magicka builds is leading to a lack of diversity in PvP (What is with this desire for Diversity anyways, what is the an EOE or something?) is like saying all of the stamina builds dodge rolling when attacks is leading to a lack of diversity.

Damage shields DO undermine the effectiveness of crit yet they also have a bleed through effect when they are broken that negates any armor and protection the player does have. They also absorb a finite amount of damage where a dodge roll blocks an infinite amount of damage from most abilities and block reduces the damage from an infinite number of the majority of attacks. Each defensive mechanism is the *Design* for each armor type to use as a defense mechanism and they all have their tradeoffs and benefits.

I'm also very aware of how to counter dodge roll and against a good player spamming nothing dodge roll right now I can't kill them and I'm fine with that. I'm not going to get upset because there are people I can't kill 1 v 1 because they also can't kill me 1 v 1 and this in an AvAvA game.

Ifthir_ESO

saw 12k hardened ward yesterday on azuras, took it down, sorc insta-recast it. How is that fun? Infinite sustain builds with turtle tendencies are yet again the #1meta in an MMO which is lame as crap.

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.
• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.
• This, I will grant you, does have some merit. That being said, it must be acknowledged that shields themselves undermine the user's defense capability as they provide zero damage mitigation. These two aspects taken together, which of course you obviously exclude one because that's just your MO, might be a wash. I do think damage shields should always count for "hitting" the target (ultimate regen, procs, etc.) and should not way prevent secondary effects on the user (CC, DoTs - though the DoT should damage the shield, burning, etc.), just to be clear.

While also being clear, I will say when the 1.6 PTS came out, I was one of the people who advocated that PvP needed to play itself out before the theory that Sorc's unique ability of having its shield based on magicka was too strong or too much of an anomaly. Having played a sorc myself and seen Cyrodiil for over a month now, I have come around to the position that this uniqueness is a bit much. I understand - and lament - that a sorcerer has no self heal, but a light armored templar, who relies on a shield every bit as much for survival as a sorcerer, has no escapability. A sorcerer can make the argument that a templar can breathe of life herself out of a low health situation. I would counter sometimes...noticeably less often than bolt escape. And while a sorcerer does not have a heal, they can access one by picking a specific weapon whereas my templar cannot access bolt escape. I am not convinced that sorcerers are ESO special flowers deserving of more pandering than the other three classes and see no compelling gameplay reason why their shield should somehow be scaled differently than the other classes. When the patch notes came out for 1.6, for all the complaints that were made against sorcerers, I noticed that *every* single skill I used in PvP was getting a buff (with the exception of Negate). All of them. If sorcerers were poor at sustained DPS and half of their skills pointless, when combined with the 1.5 health buff and soft cap on magicka, their shields scaling off magicka didn't really make much difference. Now it does.

DDuke

Ok, just today I had the wonderful experience of hitting a sorc at 20% health with Ambush->Soul Harvest+Killer's Blade. The result was dmg shield absorbing all of it, and me spamming Killer's Blade 4-5 times all getting absorbed by shield spam. I am running with 3,4k weapon damage while buffed (always)

In what world should a spammable, non-ulti dmg shield completely absorb biggest burst damage in game and multiple executes (10k base dmg)?


This is obviously broken.

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

Xsorus

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

No 50K is not even remotely possible with Necropotence unless you were rocking all 3600 CPs for the bonus 10K magicka then it is doable.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

I break damage shields all the time by stacking projectiles. You can do that easily with bow and we both know our "tooltip" damage is not what we actually will damage for when we need it. Getting above a base 10K hit with snipe in legendary gearing isn't all that difficult.

Yes getting through 10K shields with surprise attacks is not easy and it really shouldn't be what you're using unless there are other people beating on the Sorc. If you want to 1 v 1 someone with a specific build it often requires that you have a countering build. I can't kill every player 1 v 1 with the build I run around in Cyrodiil with, you shouldn't be able to either.

hamon

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

saw 12k hardened ward yesterday on azuras, took it down, sorc insta-recast it. How is that fun? Infinite sustain builds with turtle tendencies are yet again the #1meta in an MMO which is lame as crap.

this sums it up perfectly , weve had all the sorcs pile in trying to get us arguing about how big the shields are.

even if it's 16k, for the amount of magika it costs to recast the instant it goes down its crazy.

even if i was in full healer gear (which would be suicide on my templar) and spammed BoL which is the only large heal insta cast. id run out of magika long beofre sorcs would casting the wards constantly. and i dont think i can get anything like 16k a cast on bol even in full healer gear.

add to that wards cant be crit on and you get to the crux of why they are insane.

dont get into arguing about how big a ward is possible. it's not how big they thats the sole issue , its how big they are while being completely spammable for extended periods of time . and the fact you cant be crit while the ward is up...

add this to the fact that in this game where ZOS said they wouldn't allow combat addons most of the serious pvp players seem to have addons that say CLEANSE NOW..... BLOCK NOW. re-cast shields, take potions now etc etc..... just in case they go more than a millisecond without the ward up.

which to me is pretty much a combat addon. honestly the console release will be a breath of fresh air if it doesnt have all the cheat addon... but thats another debate i guess.

DDuke

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

No 50K is not even remotely possible with Necropotence unless you were rocking all 3600 CPs for the bonus 10K magicka then it is doable.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

I break damage shields all the time by stacking projectiles. You can do that easily with bow and we both know our "tooltip" damage is not what we actually will damage for when we need it. Getting above a base 10K hit with snipe in legendary gearing isn't all that difficult.

Yes getting through 10K shields with surprise attacks is not easy and it really shouldn't be what you're using unless there are other people beating on the Sorc. If you want to 1 v 1 someone with a specific build it often requires that you have a countering build. I can't kill every player 1 v 1 with the build I run around in Cyrodiil with, you shouldn't be able to either.

Well, that is kind of the problem isn't it?

You should be able to beat anyone 1v1 if you're the better player.
Of course there should be favourable & unfavourable match-ups, but no impossible ones.

However, if someone can just hit one button & repeatedly completely absorb even your execute dmg (when you are fully specced for damage), then something is just simply broken.

Also, if you take a look at the dmg shield & infine dodge spam going on, you should realize there's a severe lack of diversity in the game, and the reason for that is the fact that those builds are too strong (or other builds aren't strong enough).

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

It's "easy" to get 40K magicka. No it's not. It is possible with an overspecialized build. And I see you moved onto adverbs:

[*] Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

Yes I can. And I am not spamming it. If the sorc is stunned, they are getting hit with WB again and they aren't stopping it. If they aren't stunned and they bolt, they are getting criticl rushed. If they try to apply a shield, they are getting fossilized. It is a apt comparison because that sorc is on the defensive and in trouble. Even when you are wrong, you try to worm you way out with misleading language.

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

As pointed out by another poster in this thread, that is what they cost because a sorc needs multiple castings to get that. You said "a 20k dmg shield" costs "current(ly) 2-3k" which is wrong and you making up numbers again.

To get back to your claim that Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them, which is already disproven by wrecking blow, one of the very examples you give also invalidate your statement. You are so used to making up numbers that you cannot seem to comprehend the real ones.

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

So 1 snipe take out 75% of Ezareth's shield for a base cost of 2872. It's not costing you more than twice the resources to break his shield.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

And you aren't going to mention the 4 second stun or the Major Fracture debuff put on an enemy as this skill is intended to be used is a specific situation. So now you enjoy using double standards. You claim wrecking blow can't "really" be spammed when it actually can be - it is that good and is a two-hander's most damaging attack and perhaps the most damaging attack in the game.. If there is a skill that should not be spammed, it is this one as it's damage is ordinary and the prime benefits of the skill are lost when not used from stealth/invisible.

If you are spamming surprise attack to take down a damage shield, that's a waste of resources prompted by your impatience and stubbornness in knowingly using a specialized skill in a general context.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Ok, that's great. Our last content was in October. We aren't getting anything new until after the June console release "die down." I'm sure the developers will get right to fundamentally changing the PvP landscape because you get annoyed that your surprise attack spam is inefficient in taking down hardened ward.

This might surprise you, but I actually agree that each class should have a different defense mechanism. I find your misinformation counterproductive to the devs actually doing anything about it. When they read your claims that 40k magicka sorcerers are easy and 20K damage shields costing 2-3K currently, as in now when we have 130 CPs, not 1300 CPs, they more than likely disregard whatever faint insight is obscured in your posts because it just sounds like a upset player convinced all the other classes are better, precisely the perspective that Erick Wrobel, the lead combat designer, has publicly stated that he believes many ESO players adopt.

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

It's "easy" to get 40K magicka. No it's not. It is possible with an overspecialized build.

It is easy, because it doesn't require hard to get gear upgraded to legendary or anything like that. Just like it's easy to get 3-4k stamina regen by stacking easy to acquire medium sets.

Easy = easy to achieve (e.g. available to many, a common sight in Cyrodiil)
Easy=/= op god mode build

And 40k magicka doesn't even require Necropotence specifically btw, you can use multiple other sets as long as they have +magicka set bonuses (and your every enchant is +magicka).
Having a race with +magicka passive (e.g. Breton) of course helps.

Joy_Division wrote: »

And I see you moved onto adverbs:

[*] Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

Yes I can. And I am not spamming it. If the sorc is stunned, they are getting hit with WB again and they aren't stopping it. If they aren't stunned and they bolt, they are getting criticl rushed. If they try to apply a shield, they are getting fossilized. It is a apt comparison because that sorc is on the defensive and in trouble. Even when you are wrong, you try to worm you way out with misleading language.

That would be the case if CC wasn't broken instantly (which it is by any semi-competent player). Goes to touch on the issue of CC in this game not really being "CC", mentioned on page 3 of this thread.

Also, you'll notice what happens when you start spamming abilities with cast or channel time. These players are mostly free AP to the skilled players. One Ambush->Soul Harvest or procced CF ruins your day for instance, since you aren't blocking or able to react quickly with roll dodge.

Joy_Division wrote: »

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

As pointed out by another poster in this thread, that is what they cost because a sorc needs multiple castings to get that. You said "a 20k dmg shield" costs "current(ly) 2-3k" which is wrong and you making up numbers again.

To get back to your claim that Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them, which is already disproven by wrecking blow, one of the very examples you give also invalidate your statement. You are so used to making up numbers that you cannot seem to comprehend the real ones./quote]

I'd like to see a good player lose to wrecking blow spam, or better yet: Snipe spam (in case you aren't using 2H).
I've over 90 days /played, and not once have I lost to a Snipe, Wrecking Blow or Rapid Strikes.

As for the 20k shields costing 2-3k magicka, that might or might not have been a hyperbole (except in the case of Healing Ward, which seems to mean immunity mode even while someone else is hitting you with ultis & executes).

Joy_Division wrote: »

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

So 1 snipe take out 75% of Ezareth's shield for a base cost of 2872. It's not costing you more than twice the resources to break his shield.

Again, good luck spamming Snipe against a shield stacker (or anyone, actually).
If the hardest hitting execute in the game can't get past shield spam, I can guarantee you no amount of Snipe spam will.

Joy_Division wrote: »

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

And you aren't going to mention the 4 second stun or the Major Fracture debuff put on an enemy as this skill is intended to be used is a specific situation. So now you enjoy using double standards. You claim wrecking blow can't "really" be spammed when it actually can be - it is that good and is a two-hander's most damaging attack and perhaps the most damaging attack in the game.. If there is a skill that should not be spammed, it is this one as it's damage is ordinary and the prime benefits of the skill are lost when not used from stealth/invisible.

If you are spamming surprise attack to take down a damage shield, that's a waste of resources prompted by your impatience and stubbornness in knowingly using a specialized skill in a general context.

Wait a second, you're calling the hardest hitting, most cost efficient damage dealing instant cast ability in the game "specific"? Sure, it has an extra element to it (much like DK Whip), which makes it all the better.

Please save both of our time and don't try to educate someone who's been playing a stamina NB since beta

The skills I use in my build are the best you can have for both DPS & burst damage in this game, burst ranging from 50-60k & DPS being 15-20k minimum in PvE with the 141 CPs.
If you find someone dealing more damage than that, do let me know.

In case you're wondering what is the second hardest hitting instant cast ability (10% less damage), that'd be Flying Blade.

Also, you can see in my next video what happens to Wrecking Blow spammers, they're my favourite prey in Cyrodiil.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Ok, that's great. Our last content was in October. We aren't getting anything new until after the June console release "die down." I'm sure the developers will get right to fundamentally changing the PvP landscape because you get annoyed that your surprise attack spam is inefficient in taking down hardened ward.

This might surprise you, but I actually agree that each class should have a different defense mechanism. I find your misinformation counterproductive to the devs actually doing anything about it. When they read your claims that 40k magicka sorcerers are easy and 20K damage shields costing 2-3K currently, as in now when we have 130 CPs, not 1300 CPs, they more than likely disregard whatever faint insight is obscured in your posts because it just sounds like a upset player convinced all the other classes are better, precisely the perspective that Erick Wrobel, the lead combat designer, has publicly stated that he believes many ESO players adopt.

Oh please. Where have I made this a class discussion?

It doesn't matter which class we're talking about, build diversity is tilted towards the "sustain builds", because they are stronger. Which is why most of the fights against competent players are currently "who runs out of stamina/magicka first loses".

Samadhi

Joy_Division wrote: »

...

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

And you aren't going to mention the 4 second stun or the Major Fracture debuff put on an enemy as this skill is intended to be used is a specific situation. So now you enjoy using double standards. You claim wrecking blow can't "really" be spammed when it actually can be - it is that good and is a two-hander's most damaging attack and perhaps the most damaging attack in the game.. If there is a skill that should not be spammed, it is this one as it's damage is ordinary and the prime benefits of the skill are lost when not used from stealth/invisible.

If you are spamming surprise attack to take down a damage shield, that's a waste of resources prompted by your impatience and stubbornness in knowingly using a specialized skill in a general context.
...

So would you advise a Dual Wield Nightblade to use Flurry to break down a damage shield instead of Surprise Attack?

Derra

Arguing about 16 k wards is just far from reality. Far more so than 2500+ stam reg perma dodge builds. I am reaching 118xx myself. That shield strengh is desperately needed once more than one opponent decides to Hit me with more than an auto attack - to even have time to react.

Before they rebalance shields for 1v1 encounters i would actually like to see an improvement to small scale and grp survivability for all light armor builds because they are not vaible in that regard am. I would like to play a caster with my friends and not solo kite around them bc i have no grp support whatsoever (i dont use healing ward bc i think its bs) and light armor is not healable.

Tankqull

DDuke wrote: »

• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

so does blocking - where is your nerf the crap out of blocking thread?

DDuke

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

so does blocking - where is your nerf the crap out of blocking thread?

You should definitely be able to crit on blocking targets (block mitigation should still occur of course).
If you want to start this thread, be my guest (though there's been quite a few regarding permablock & the issues it causes already). It'll start being even bigger problem than before, once people get all the block cost reduction CPs etc.

ZOS said they wanted to change how blocking works a couple months ago as response, we've heard nothing since

Alas, not the topic of this thread...

LegendaryMage

Crits should be possible on blocking targets, they should do extra damage and then block reductions should kick in.

With regards to max magicka, @Ezareth I've had 43.5K easy without undaunted passives too and non-maxed out gear (epic enchants, epic quality etc). and I was missing 3% more stats from undaunted. I'd say 50K is possible with 500 or so CPs and in full legendary gear/enchants.

But, it's totally useless so I don't see why would anyone do it just for the sake of having that much magica. Your regens will be bad, your damage won't be much higher than if you were stacking spell damage. Your build will be awfully bad for anything except maybe duels vs certain types of opponents and so on.

Ezareth

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Crits should be possible on blocking targets, they should do extra damage and then block reductions should kick in.

With regards to max magicka, @Ezareth I've had 43.5K easy without undaunted passives too and non-maxed out gear (epic enchants, epic quality etc). and I was missing 3% more stats from undaunted. I'd say 50K is possible with 500 or so CPs and in full legendary gear/enchants.

But, it's totally useless so I don't see why would anyone do it just for the sake of having that much magica. Your regens will be bad, your damage won't be much higher than if you were stacking spell damage. Your build will be awfully bad for anything except maybe duels vs certain types of opponents and so on.

@LegendaryMage

I'm certain a max spellpower build will do far more damage than a max magicka build with all else being equal, especially since Major Sorcery is multiplicative with Spellpower, not magicka.

As far as Magicka percentage increase stacking, the effects have diminishing returns (as a percentage of your overall magicka) not increasing so once you get the highest possible base magicka the increases for stacking additional percentage increases are less effective. That extra 3% wouldn't be 3% of 43.5K, it'd be 3% of your base which I'd assume is something like 28K or so.

That said, 43.5K is hardly easy. You'd be wearing Necromance with your toggle abilities. I don't see how that'd even be useful in duels but I'm no expert on duels so I'll take your word on it.

Nice thread Necro BTW :P~

LegendaryMage

@Ezareth yeah exactly, my point was to try and emphasize for all other sorcs to not waste any time trying to push their magicka pool so high because it's totally useless. As is the setup in duels, totally useless in 95% of the time.

45K is totally possible with necro set and a couple of 'increase max magicka' abilities, but like I said, the build is so dull and useless you'd have to be totally brain dead to play that for more than an hour.

cozmon3c_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It might be possible to hit 50k magicka, you'd need something like Breton nigjtblade or sorc with necropotence set though.

No 50K is not even remotely possible with Necropotence unless you were rocking all 3600 CPs for the bonus 10K magicka then it is doable.

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No need for emperor for that kind of stats, you explained it in your post as well. 38k is actually quite generous, you can easily get 40k+. That said, you don't need that much for 14-15k shields on yourself (being 20k+ when stacked with Healing Ward).

I'd also like to know where I've stated it'd require "3 Ambushes" (very expensive skill used as gap closer & to pump up the follow up attack for maximum burst). Maybe you refer to this?

Dodge roll is quickly shut down by DK whip or ground targeted AoEs. Which abilities bypass dmg shields, I wonder? (Or even crit on one).

What a surprise, more nonsensical hyperbole about damage shields from Duke.

You can't "easy" get 40K magicka. It maybe theoretically possible to get 40K magicka if you invested every resource, used a specific set (Necropotence or whatever the pet set is called), and ran a toggle build. But such a character would be abysmally bad and such sacrifices required go against the very concept of "easy."

And of course, there is the lamenting of stamina-builds that always makes his posts. Oh no, dodge roll is "quickly" shut down by DK whip (ok...so one class...if speced for magicka...if desired to be close range...obvious bug), oh no! most people won't be quickly shutting down anything. And I'm sure that half a second you were in liquid lightning really inconvenienced your dodge roll spam...

It's amazing how easy it is to make a objective arguments against the current mechanics of hardened ward and you still won't do this and instead have to spread disinformation.

What I meant by "easy" here is that it is exactly that; easy to achieve. It does not require you to run SO hardmode or get a rare BOP set. No, it just requires you to stack +magicka set bonuses & dedicate your enchantments to that (no Necropotence required btw).
While it is easy to get this magicka and more (as I mention in my post), nowhere do I state that it is the "optimal sorc setup". No, it's most likely not. However, what it does allow you to do is to cast 15k+ shields which was kind of what I was trying to say in order to debunk the "15k impossibru!!" arguments.

Nor did I bring up the topic of dodge roll, it was used as a strawman in @Ezareth's argument.
I'm not a big fan of informal (or any other kind of) fallacies, and thus would never include one in my posts.

That said, since roll dodge was brought up, might I offer some more advice on how to counter it?

1. Velocious Curse/Magicka Detonation (also prevents cloaking, basicly puts NBs "on the clock" to kill you)
2. There is a 0,5 second vulnerability period after a roll dodge (without the item set that makes it long, name escapes me) when you can attack your target.
3. Charge attacks

Also, just to make it clear I'm not a fan of spamming something that is supposed to be reactionary & skill based (e.g. "avoid these Crystal Frags, or roll dodge out of this DK Banner"). This is largely a problem of people running around with 3-5k stamina regen, however.

Lastly, I've actually made several threads with objective arguments regarding dmg shields, such as:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

All valid arguments, and there are plenty more.


Anyhow, I'm mainly just curious; what is this "disinformation" I have allegedly spread?

You make use of misleading adjectives that convey a false impression of truthfulness to promote your agenda. And you also have a habit of just throwing out numbers. You say things like sorcs with 40-50k magicka and 30k damage shields to give the impression that these are somehow common. And then there is just nonsense. You claim a "a 20k dmg shield would cost something like 6-7k magicka, instead of the current 2-3k" - tell me how does a 20k damage SHIELD (i.e., only 1) cost 2-3k? I already know what you'll say: a full complement of shields can be considered a single shield mitigation and it is possible to get such shielding from 2-3k magicka: 10k hardened ward + 14k from another person's barrier. Look I'm being truthful Or how about 10K from hardened ward for 2.5K magicka and 10K from bone shield for 0 magicka. More Truth!

And you giving advice how to deal with dodge roll, because it somehow OK as it is "quickly" shut down, but are incapable of taking advice to deal with damage shields and instead continue to complain about them.

"Misleading adjectives"? I'd like to see an example, just out of curiosity

Nor did I throw out any numbers that I haven't tested myself. Nowhere did I state they'd be common (though easy to achieve should one wish to do so).

As for dmg shields costing 6-7k magicka, that's what they should cost, so they wouldn't be just something people spam every second, but rather like an emergency button.

I don't honestly know what you're talking about when bringing up Barrier etc., Barrier is an ultimate, not something you spam every second after your opponent throws everything at you until he runs out of magicka/stamina (or health from whatever you cast in between).

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as your "valid" arguments:

• Damage Shields costing over twice less magicka/stamina it takes to break them
• Damage Shields being used by majority of magicka builds (leading to lack of diversity in PvP)
• Damage Shields undermining the effectiveness of +crit stat (making it even less worthwhile compared to +weapon/spell dmg).

• Wrong. Ezareth's 11K hardened ward has a base cost of 3112 magicka. My 9.5k wrecking blow has a base cost of 2872.

You can't really compare an instant cast ability with one that has a cast time (spamming anything with cast time = suicide in PvP).

But if you insist, here's my Snipe dmg & stamina cost: 8191 dmg, 1323 stamina.

And Surprise Attack (which is the one you actually use for damage against anyone): 5909 dmg, 1386 stamina.

As you can see, it takes atleast two (usually three) Surprise Attacks to get rid of one shield and around 50% more resources.

This is with a very weapon damage heavy build, which means I don't have even a third of sustain those infinitydodge builds have (but I do have around 600-1k more weapon damage).

Joy_Division wrote: »

• How is this even an argument? Big deal, a majority of builds using a common defensive skill. Any defensive skill that is cost efficient and reasonably effective WILL be used. How exactly do you plan on "fixing" this? Make shields cost inefficient and impracticable so people will voluntary eschew them? And, just to be clear, you again are using misleading adjectives to create a false impression: damage shields are used by the majority of all builds, not just magicka. Stamina users like Bone shield (or at least they did, I heard the skill is bugged atm). Stamina DK's still use igneous just as stamina Templars use blazing.

I would fix it by having wider variety of defensive skills that each require different approaches to deal with (each should have some kind of a counter).

Look at WoW for example, you don't have every class running around with Paladin Bubbles, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are sneaky & elusive (Rogues), while others excel at kiting & long range (hunters), Mages have lots of firepower & CC, while Warriors take lots of hits to kill. Generalizing of course, since there are many functioning builds for each class.

In ESO, you have every class spamming the same broken defensive mechanics. This is not diverse or interesting and gets extremely monotonous.


Luckily, I haven't come across many stamina builds using Bone Shield yet. I guess it's only a matter of time... But yes, you're right about Templars & DKs. I'm not a big fan of them spamming bubbles either, but atleast they aren't endless like with magicka builds.

I break damage shields all the time by stacking projectiles. You can do that easily with bow and we both know our "tooltip" damage is not what we actually will damage for when we need it. Getting above a base 10K hit with snipe in legendary gearing isn't all that difficult.

Yes getting through 10K shields with surprise attacks is not easy and it really shouldn't be what you're using unless there are other people beating on the Sorc. If you want to 1 v 1 someone with a specific build it often requires that you have a countering build. I can't kill every player 1 v 1 with the build I run around in Cyrodiil with, you shouldn't be able to either.

Well, that is kind of the problem isn't it?

You should be able to beat anyone 1v1 if you're the better player.
Of course there should be favourable & unfavourable match-ups, but no impossible ones.

However, if someone can just hit one button & repeatedly completely absorb even your execute dmg (when you are fully specced for damage), then something is just simply broken.

Also, if you take a look at the dmg shield & infine dodge spam going on, you should realize there's a severe lack of diversity in the game, and the reason for that is the fact that those builds are too strong (or other builds aren't strong enough).

your talking about Dk's Reflective scales against sorc damage right? Dks hit this one button repeatedly and are able to negate most sorc damage, by reflecting it back in there face. so hardened ward is not fair that it just absorbs attacks, but dk's reflect nearly everything a sorc throws at them must be extremely unfair then right?