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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
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Auction House ?
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ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've posted before that ZOS have the user data, if they see a flaw they will inevitably address it. I think the system works fine.
What I haven't said before is that this is the game the pro-AH lobby signed up for. This game does not have an AH but an intricate web of player-driven stores that create an engaging economy. It's what you signed up for. There are many, many games out there that can cater to the AH crowd if that's what you want.
Personally on a megaserver I think it's safe to say it'd be a race to the bottom and would ruin our economy.
You want a captive market so you can extort them.
I don't like being accused of extortion, and I think you'll find I generally sell low rather than high.
This is not about extortion, it's about having an INTELLIGENT economy in an mmo for once.
You complain about not being able to find things on AH? How about being able to find them but never being able to afford them ala GW2? Why? Because anything other than BIS is worth pennies and all the BIS is up for tens of thousands.
Extortion comes when a small handful have access to the whole market place. They buy up the good stuff, the ultra rare stuff, and stick it back on at ridiculous prices.
Moderator note: Edited per our rules on insulting comments.Edited by ZOS_TristanK on March 27, 2015 9:48PMAllow cross-platform transfers and merges1 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »
Yep you're right, prices never vary in real life. It's why all those cost comparison websites out there never do any business...Allow cross-platform transfers and merges0 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror1 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.1 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
Limited access, as in access to only one store, as in auction house.
Supply and demand works with competition, with an AH there is no competing store, only a price battle and a race to the bottom which isn't good for anyone.
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
Or alternatively, use the Master Merchant addon, join multiple stores and get a broad overview and average of pricing, gives you a much fairer idea of what things should be going for.Edited by ItsGlaive on March 27, 2015 4:14PMAllow cross-platform transfers and merges2 -
BigM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Has anyone done a Auction House with megaservers? As far as I know this is the first one and could you imagine the lag caused by an Auction House like WoW has.“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Extortion comes when a small handful have access to the whole market place. They buy up the good stuff, the ultra rare stuff, and stick it back on at ridiculous prices.
If you really think about it, a global AH would more so allow for that than the current system. I can't possibly go thru every single guild store right now and buy up every single Legendary Deugh Wax for example and the flip it for much higher price. A global AH would allow me to do so....
Edited by Makkir on March 27, 2015 4:58PM0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »
Yep you're right, prices never vary in real life. It's why all those cost comparison websites out there never do any business...
We also don't have a real life global auction house where everyone lists their goods. We have many different stores charging many different prices for the same items. WalMart sells a certain DVD for 12.99, KMart has it for 12.49, FYE at the mall has it for 18.99. If it were an Auction House the prices would be 12.99, 12.98, and 12.97. The value of that DVD is determined by what the customer is willing to pay. And sometimes customers are willing to pay a premium for convenience.
I have a motif listed for 45k right now in a large trade guild. Not in a hurry to sell it. If someone is desperate enough and wants it, they will pay 45k for it...otherwise they can shop around the Guild Vendors in cities to find it cheaper. An Auction House might put me in a position adjust the price to 25k depending on how many are listed in the undercutting war if I had any desire to sell it, but listing it for 45k on an Auction House where there are 40 more of that motif listed is going to be a stretch. Does it mean the motif is only worth 25k, absolutely not. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Most people who say "Hey I need toilet paper," don't hop on the internet first to browse 50 stores for a .50 cent savings. If anything, you stop at 2 or 3 stores. You might shop around if you are looking to buy a 55 inch flat screen however. But that's just being a responsible consumer...just like in ESO where if you are looking to buy an expensive Motif, then shop around. Stop asking sellers to be responsible in pricing because you don't want to be responsible in shopping around or bargaining.
You're playing a game right now where a lot of people are sitting on millions of gold, and our Chinese buddies are selling large amounts for cheap prices due to currency exchange. You really don't want a single server global auction house in that environment. And if you want to talk extortion...a global auction house is giving a HELLUVA lot of buying power to extremely wealthy players. How would you like it if I purchased every single Imperial Motif that gets puts on the AH, regardless of price, and then only sold them for 1.2mill away from the Auction House....isn't that exactly against what you are arguing?2 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Extortion comes when a small handful have access to the whole market place. They buy up the good stuff, the ultra rare stuff, and stick it back on at ridiculous prices.
If you really think about it, a global AH would more so allow for that than the current system. I can't possibly go thru every single guild store right now and buy up every single Legendary Deugh Wax for example and the flip it for much higher price. A global AH would allow me to do so....
That's exactly what I was saying, I'm anti-ah
Allow cross-platform transfers and merges0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
I just want to reinforce what this guy @Xabien has stated. I can't believe we are reading arguments about 1 global AH regulating prices. I don't want to stoop to the level of calling you cheapskates, but that's exactly what it looks like. You don't want to bother shopping around, you want an Elder Scrolls WalMart.
You can't do that here. The crafted gear isn't consumed upon use, the stats are always the same regardless of who crafts it...sooner than later everyone will have yellow gear and there will be no market for the lower level stuff...raw materials will be listed in bulk for 401 gold (Because NPC's set the bar at 400g/stack) assuming there wasn't an AH cut/fee (In actuality they'd be listed at 400g + AH fee + 1 gold). It would be flooded because you have sweatshops paying 3 pennies per hour employing Chinese to farm 24/7, but nothing decays or rots except food and potions. A lot going in + not a lot coming out is not fluid at all. It's a bottleneck. Not to mention the lack of gold sinks.
The current system allows sellers to mark their own prices instead of playing an undercut war, and if you do not like the price then you have the option of contacting the selling and offering a lower price, or shopping at another guild store. The only argument I see that is valid is the fact the Guild Store UI needs some more user friendly modifications...that to which I agree. But wanting a global auction house so you don't have to "waste" your precious PvE time shopping...that's FUBAR. Some of us enjoy the commerce content this game has allowed. Some of us started our MMO careers with EverQuest and remember the East Commonlands Tunnels and what MMOs were like before the Age of Entitlement.
3 -
Lirkin✭✭✭✭I think if they are going to keep the current system they should allow access to all of the Auctions from one location. Have a central hub or something.
The current jump all over the map to find a Auction site sucks bad and is a large waste of time. How do you even know where they are?
I refuse to use it the way it is.0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭"the undercut war" = I want to charge more for common crap than its worth.Edited by Drachenfier on March 27, 2015 5:46PM2 -
tallenn✭✭✭Has anyone done a Auction House with megaservers? As far as I know this is the first one and could you imagine the lag caused by an Auction House like WoW has.
Guild Wars 2 has a single global trading exchange(like an auction house, but instead of auctions you big on, there's just listings to both buy and sell), and I don't recall it being laggy at all.
It has multiple servers, but they all share the same global trading exchange.0 -
tallenn✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
Limited access, as in access to only one store, as in auction house.
Supply and demand works with competition, with an AH there is no competing store, only a price battle and a race to the bottom which isn't good for anyone.
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
Or alternatively, use the Master Merchant addon, join multiple stores and get a broad overview and average of pricing, gives you a much fairer idea of what things should be going for.
An auction house is not a "store", it's a marketplace. It has many stores, as in all of them. It's the exact opposite of limited access, as it grants access to EVERY store, all in one place.
The competition is in fact far greater than and a thousand different stores strewn all about the landscape.
A race to the bottom is in fact good for just about everyone, because lower prices are better for consumers, which encompasses essentially everyone. Who it's NOT good for is the sellers, which is a much smaller subset of people than consumers.
Limiting access to markets favors special interests, at the expense of everyone else.
I don't know about the rest of you that believe in free markets, but I simply choose not to participate. There is nothing in this game that I need or want badly enough to support a controlled market economy.3 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I feel the pro-AH vs anti-AH groups would closely align with "has a job" and "doesn't have a job" groups as well. If you work, have a family (that you pay attention to that is), the inventory management and current trade system will take a huge bite out of the limited time you have to play the game. It's terribly wasteful to those who don't have all day to fool around with a flawed, clunky and inefficient system.
You would be wrong.The Moot Councillor0 -
Lirkin✭✭✭✭
Yes and that means that I have to go to every city to look at them and not a central location. This is crazy for buyers and to time consuming.0 -
Thelon✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes and that means that I have to go to every city to look at them and not a central location. This is crazy for buyers and to time consuming.
If they were all accessible from one central location, why would trade guilds compete for prime locations? How do you propose to replace the massive gold sink that trade guild competition provides?0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »"the undercut war" = I want to charge more for common crap than its worth.
Then don't buy it, or go farm it yourself.
I can grow carrots in my garden for the time and price of seeds, or pay more to buy them at the grocery store.
Stop being welfare
I want the power to determine the value of the things I craft or loot...not a simplified gaming tool that is influenced by developing countries where an American dollar can pay a week's worth of food.1 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
And I'm telling you that you can find multiple papers on the exact same situation that we have and how it creates a vibrant economy because of competition and segregation of market segments. But that's not what you want to hear. And so it goes around. I'm telling you how every Trade guild isn't what you've experienced... indeed if you've experienced any. But that's not what you want to hear. And so it goes around. The purpose of engaging on the forums is to have a discussion. But you don't want to have a discussion. And so... I'm getting off the merry go round.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think if they are going to keep the current system they should allow access to all of the Auctions from one location. Have a central hub or something.
The current jump all over the map to find a Auction site sucks bad and is a large waste of time. How do you even know where they are?
I refuse to use it the way it is.
That's something I could give some ground on. If the guild traders were located in capitals only say, then there's three locations, with all the guild traders in one spot in each city.Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
Limited access, as in access to only one store, as in auction house.
Supply and demand works with competition, with an AH there is no competing store, only a price battle and a race to the bottom which isn't good for anyone.
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
Or alternatively, use the Master Merchant addon, join multiple stores and get a broad overview and average of pricing, gives you a much fairer idea of what things should be going for.
An auction house is not a "store", it's a marketplace. It has many stores, as in all of them. It's the exact opposite of limited access, as it grants access to EVERY store, all in one place.
The competition is in fact far greater than and a thousand different stores strewn all about the landscape.
A race to the bottom is in fact good for just about everyone, because lower prices are better for consumers, which encompasses essentially everyone. Who it's NOT good for is the sellers, which is a much smaller subset of people than consumers.
Limiting access to markets favors special interests, at the expense of everyone else.
I don't know about the rest of you that believe in free markets, but I simply choose not to participate. There is nothing in this game that I need or want badly enough to support a controlled market economy.
So a race to the bottom is good for everyone. Lets use GW2 as an example here. Most everyday things there are sold for pennies. Say we got the same system here, and pretty much everything went for 3-5g. That is of course except for the best gear, which has been flipped and it going for, say, 50,000 or 100,000.
How, with having to sell things at 3-5 gold, are you going to make enough to by the top tier stuff that's being controlled by a select few?
This is the scenario that comes with a global AH. This is what the guild store system prevents.Allow cross-platform transfers and merges0 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭Xabien I expect a guild invite to ITC in the future if it's NA. Just saying.
Sorry mate, we're EU. I'm sure there's plenty of good trading guilds on NA server though, ask around in chat
One thing I want to add to my earlier post - crafters need to make back their costs before they get any profit. Yet another reason a race to the bottom is bad for the economy.
There's a reason governments fear deflation as much as inflation.Allow cross-platform transfers and merges1 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not to mention I would stop crafting all together with no incentive. You want a set of Seducers...then go craft it yourself...0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The traders mostly work but finding what you need still isn't streamlined. You have to run around 30+ (50+? Don't even know) guild traders in a bunch of different zones to find stuff you need.
If you didn't unlock certain zones you have no access to the guild traders or items up in those stores. You can't search for names of things for sale, only choose multiple descriptors of them. It just has a ton of room for improvement.0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes and that means that I have to go to every city to look at them and not a central location. This is crazy for buyers and to time consuming.
It really depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for something very rare and you only want to buy the cheapest one of it in the entire market, then yes, it will take you a while.
If you have an idea of a reasonable price and would like to just buy the first one you see that's in the range you are willing to pay for, then you are probably going to find that in the second city you go to.The Moot Councillor0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think if they are going to keep the current system they should allow access to all of the Auctions from one location. Have a central hub or something.
The current jump all over the map to find a Auction site sucks bad and is a large waste of time. How do you even know where they are?
I refuse to use it the way it is.
That's something I could give some ground on. If the guild traders were located in capitals only say, then there's three locations, with all the guild traders in one spot in each city.Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
Limited access, as in access to only one store, as in auction house.
Supply and demand works with competition, with an AH there is no competing store, only a price battle and a race to the bottom which isn't good for anyone.
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
Or alternatively, use the Master Merchant addon, join multiple stores and get a broad overview and average of pricing, gives you a much fairer idea of what things should be going for.
An auction house is not a "store", it's a marketplace. It has many stores, as in all of them. It's the exact opposite of limited access, as it grants access to EVERY store, all in one place.
The competition is in fact far greater than and a thousand different stores strewn all about the landscape.
A race to the bottom is in fact good for just about everyone, because lower prices are better for consumers, which encompasses essentially everyone. Who it's NOT good for is the sellers, which is a much smaller subset of people than consumers.
Limiting access to markets favors special interests, at the expense of everyone else.
I don't know about the rest of you that believe in free markets, but I simply choose not to participate. There is nothing in this game that I need or want badly enough to support a controlled market economy.
So a race to the bottom is good for everyone. Lets use GW2 as an example here. Most everyday things there are sold for pennies. Say we got the same system here, and pretty much everything went for 3-5g. That is of course except for the best gear, which has been flipped and it going for, say, 50,000 or 100,000.
How, with having to sell things at 3-5 gold, are you going to make enough to by the top tier stuff that's being controlled by a select few?
This is the scenario that comes with a global AH. This is what the guild store system prevents.
Like I said, I have made millions in SWTOR selling unwanted mats for the going price. Once again, we have a poster here that wants to charge more for items than they're worth. All of you people in support of this system are exactly the same, and keep coming back with the same argument: " I won't be able to overcharge for stuff when I have to compete against other sellers".
Common items are cheap....because they're common. Prices go down because the supply is higher than the demand. Your crafted items aren't any more special than anyone else's crafted items. If you want to sell expensive stuff, sell rare stuff. If you want to make money on common crap, sell more common crap. What we have with this system, and what Xabien up there likes to call a "vibrant economy" is artificially induced inflation caused by market segregation.Edited by Drachenfier on March 27, 2015 7:53PM3 -
ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »I think if they are going to keep the current system they should allow access to all of the Auctions from one location. Have a central hub or something.
The current jump all over the map to find a Auction site sucks bad and is a large waste of time. How do you even know where they are?
I refuse to use it the way it is.
That's something I could give some ground on. If the guild traders were located in capitals only say, then there's three locations, with all the guild traders in one spot in each city.Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »
In ESO, i just vendor them, because I have no friggin clue what they're actually selling for, and I don't have time to spam zone chat.
Being uninformed is a pretty poor argument to overhaul the entire system. Try using Master Merchant if you can't determine the value of your goods on your own.
I'm not uninformed, I'm hindered by poor design. That's a pretty good argument for overhaul.
One person's (or group of people's) hindrance by what they consider poor design is not. That's the reason that common ground is a good goal for these discussions, rather than dismissing others' viewpoints and experiences out of hand.
Except that it is not a 'perception', its not my opinion, it is a fact that the market is limited by design. Limited access is a hindrance to economy, there's no debate here.
It is your opinion. You might not think there is a debate, or even want to debate. But that doesn't make it so.
Every economist in the world disagrees with you.
Easy to say. But can you prove it? Because I can prove that your blanket statement is wrong given the right parameters to the question.
Sure, go back and read my posts. To be honest, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over again. I'm interested in stimulating the economy, not overcharging for common mats. To that end, you and I will never agree.
Your posts are not proof. And the mats are not being overcharged for. But we can agree on one thing if that's your argument, that you and I will never agree. But I can at least posit that I have tried.
The proof is in the game. The fact that prices are all over the place because there is no centralized economy is a good start.And the mats are not being overcharged for.
Says who? You? Of course YOU don't think they are, because you're happy to gouge your fellow consumer with limited access inflation pricing. I guarantee you that whatever you're charging for mats would be a lot less if there was a central AH. But, you don't want that, do you? Of course not.
I'm not much of a seller, even though I've made millions in SWTOR just selling mats I don't need on the open market, but I am a buyer, and I have yet to buy anything in ESO, because the system is spastic. I see prices all over the damn place, no regulation whatsoever besides the little mini-vacuum created in each guild store. It's ridiculous, and the only people I see liking this system are the sellers that don't have to worry about competitive pricing.
Not to mention the fact that beyond all this discussion about economy, when the system requires addons to not be a complete mess, it's an automatic failure.
There you go attributing your own experiences to the game as a whole and me as an individual. I don't gouge for basic mats, and they go for a perfectly reasonable cost on the trade guilds that I'm a member of. This just keeps going round and round, and there's no attempt to see any points of view or debate rationally included. And now we've descended to making assumptions about my intent and actions. As such... I'm out!
That's just because you refuse to see the big picture. I'm telling you why markets with limited access are bad, information that is easily validated by a single google search. I'm telling you how supply and demand works and why its self regulating, and how it promotes a healthy economy. Whether you accept this information or not is up to you, but I'm not making it up. Economics is a thing.
Limited access, as in access to only one store, as in auction house.
Supply and demand works with competition, with an AH there is no competing store, only a price battle and a race to the bottom which isn't good for anyone.
The current system works because if an item is prices unreasonably high, it doesn't sell. The seller then puts it back up at a lower price. Rinse, repeat until sold.
Or alternatively, use the Master Merchant addon, join multiple stores and get a broad overview and average of pricing, gives you a much fairer idea of what things should be going for.
An auction house is not a "store", it's a marketplace. It has many stores, as in all of them. It's the exact opposite of limited access, as it grants access to EVERY store, all in one place.
The competition is in fact far greater than and a thousand different stores strewn all about the landscape.
A race to the bottom is in fact good for just about everyone, because lower prices are better for consumers, which encompasses essentially everyone. Who it's NOT good for is the sellers, which is a much smaller subset of people than consumers.
Limiting access to markets favors special interests, at the expense of everyone else.
I don't know about the rest of you that believe in free markets, but I simply choose not to participate. There is nothing in this game that I need or want badly enough to support a controlled market economy.
So a race to the bottom is good for everyone. Lets use GW2 as an example here. Most everyday things there are sold for pennies. Say we got the same system here, and pretty much everything went for 3-5g. That is of course except for the best gear, which has been flipped and it going for, say, 50,000 or 100,000.
How, with having to sell things at 3-5 gold, are you going to make enough to by the top tier stuff that's being controlled by a select few?
This is the scenario that comes with a global AH. This is what the guild store system prevents.
Like I said, I have made millions in SWTOR selling unwanted mats for the going price. Once again, we have a poster here that wants to charge more for items than they're worth. All of you people in support of this system are exactly the same, and keep coming back with the same argument: " I won't be able to overcharge for stuff when I have to compete against other sellers".
Common items are cheap....because they're common. Prices go down because the supply is higher than the demand. Your crafted items aren't any more special than anyone else's crafted items. If you want to sell expensive stuff, sell rare stuff. If you want to make money on common crap, sell more common crap. What we have with this system, and what Xabien up there likes to call a "vibrant economy" is artificially induced inflation caused by market segregation.
Again with your unfounded accusations and paranoia. This is getting quite personal so be careful.
As for overcharging. I tend to sell traited items, that's my main bulk of sales. Green or blue, up to VR13 I sell traited items for anything from 120 - 350 gold depending on quality, level and if it is a set item.
So go on, tell me that's over charging or exploiting.Edited by ItsGlaive on March 27, 2015 7:57PMAllow cross-platform transfers and merges0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop being so dramatic and sensitive. You did state that there are papers claiming market segregation leads to a vibrant economy. I'm just saying that's a bunch of mularkey.
I am also not accusing you specifically of overcharging anything, I'm saying that the common stance for the Anti-AH crowd is that they don't like to be undercut, when that's exactly how supply and demand works. I can't stress this enough: you cannot hope to sell common items at high prices simply because they are common items. An actual vibrant economy is completely self regulating, with no artificially induced inflation. Segregated markets cause artificially induced inflation. Deflation, which everyone seems to be concerned about, is just a fact of economics. This principle is extremely basic.Edited by Drachenfier on March 27, 2015 8:11PM2 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »
Like I said, I have made millions in SWTOR selling unwanted mats for the going price. Once again, we have a poster here that wants to charge more for items than they're worth. All of you people in support of this system are exactly the same, and keep coming back with the same argument: " I won't be able to overcharge for stuff when I have to compete against other sellers".
Common items are cheap....because they're common. Prices go down because the supply is higher than the demand. Your crafted items aren't any more special than anyone else's crafted items. If you want to sell expensive stuff, sell rare stuff. If you want to make money on common crap, sell more common crap. What we have with this system, and what Xabien up there likes to call a "vibrant economy" is artificially induced inflation caused by market segregation.
And once again, you're not reading previous arguments...you are comparing apples to oranges. What works in one game won't work in the next unless they have identical systems. Is the best gear in SWTOR obtained thru PvE content or crafting? Because that matters. Not to mention, SWTOR still have multiple servers, not one mega server.
If something is common enough, then it's probably not the only item listed on the guild store. No one is over charging for "commonly" dropped items. Probably for low tier gear with the rarer traits for researching purposes, but your example is far fetched, unsupported, and blatantly ridiculous. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You also get your end game crafting materials from deconstructing and processing raw material...is that how it is in SWTOR? What happens when the Global Auction house is absolutely flooded with raw materials in unlimited supply (cuz sweatshops, etc) and every level 50 crafter is processing them...? Pages upon pages of legendary crafting mats. Do you really think that drastic increase in supply is good for crafter's end game? Considering gear in this game isn't consumed after time, looks like your idea allows for a butt ton of input and not a lot of output.
In all honesty, if gear broke like it did in Pre-CU SWG...I would be ALL FOR an auction house. But in the current state an auction house would not be enough to stimulate the crafting professions.
You might be narrow minded right now and just thinking about dungeon loot and what not, but the best gear in this game is supposed to be coming from crafters.
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