Auction House ?

ItsGlaive

Drachenfier wrote: »

Stop being so dramatic and sensitive. You did state that there are papers claiming market segregation leads to a vibrant economy. I'm just saying that's a bunch of mularkey.

I am also not accusing you specifically of overcharging anything, I'm saying that the common stance for the Anti-AH crowd is that they don't like to be undercut, when that's exactly how supply and demand works. I can't stress this enough: you cannot hope to sell common items at high prices simply because they are common items. An actual vibrant economy is completely self regulating, with no artificially induced inflation. Segregated markets cause artificially induced inflation. Deflation, which everyone seems to be concerned about, is just a fact of economics. This principle is extremely basic.

I didn't mention papers, read back up, that was someone else.

Also, our economy does regulate. People have preferred sellers, guilds that over charge soon find themselves out of business.

There's a reason our guild (actually the first trade guild to be set up pre-launch) is still going strong while so many have ceased trading, because we're FAIR traders. But it doesn't help having scaremongers spreading malicious accusations based on nothing but their own opinion.

Edit: Just wanted to address the inflation vs deflation point very briefly. Prices have gone DOWN since launch, not up. As for deflation being a fact of economics, so is inflation, and both tend to be feared and avoided by anyone with sense.

Drachenfier

Xabien wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Stop being so dramatic and sensitive. You did state that there are papers claiming market segregation leads to a vibrant economy. I'm just saying that's a bunch of mularkey.

I am also not accusing you specifically of overcharging anything, I'm saying that the common stance for the Anti-AH crowd is that they don't like to be undercut, when that's exactly how supply and demand works. I can't stress this enough: you cannot hope to sell common items at high prices simply because they are common items. An actual vibrant economy is completely self regulating, with no artificially induced inflation. Segregated markets cause artificially induced inflation. Deflation, which everyone seems to be concerned about, is just a fact of economics. This principle is extremely basic.

I didn't mention papers, read back up, that was someone else.

Also, our economy does regulate. People have preferred sellers, guilds that over charge soon find themselves out of business.

There's a reason our guild (actually the first trade guild to be set up pre-launch) is still going strong while so many have ceased trading, because we're FAIR traders. But it doesn't help having scaremongers spreading malicious accusations based on nothing but their own opinion.

Oh yea, my bad. That was Wraith.

Prices in this game are all over the place dude, this economy is a mess.

Makkir

Drachenfier wrote: »

Stop being so dramatic and sensitive. You did state that there are papers claiming market segregation leads to a vibrant economy. I'm just saying that's a bunch of mularkey.

I am also not accusing you specifically of overcharging anything, I'm saying that the common stance for the Anti-AH crowd is that they don't like to be undercut, when that's exactly how supply and demand works. I can't stress this enough: you cannot hope to sell common items at high prices simply because they are common items. An actual vibrant economy is completely self regulating, with no artificially induced inflation. .

So what is it then when labor camps/prisons in China pay thousands of workers an equivalent of 3 pennies per hour (under cutting any American wages) to flood an MMO with gold? Artificial inflation?

You do recall a time in ESO when fifty characters named Thakhfnc and Htiansihhf were AFK farming public dungeon bosses right? Do you think an AH would have helped those Gold Farming companies?

Makkir

It's not self regulating either. All it takes is one person to list an item for 400 gold and the subsequent items to follow will be 1 gold less than the previous.
Right now an NPC vendor will buy raw materials for 400g/stack. On a trade store, sometimes you can move them for 600-1200g/stack. What do you think will happen when a global auction enables farmers to flood the AH with unlimited stacks of raw materials?
Do you even think with your brain, or just whine for things to make your MMO life more convenient for you?

I don't know how these kids in the Age of Entitlement would have survived in unforgiving MMOs like EverQuest.

"Searching around for items for an hour, wasting time..." Lol, I guess it depends whose time is being wasted right? Because your content is more valuable than mine? Forget the players who want an MMO where they can play a crafting/commerce game.

Drachenfier

Makkir wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Like I said, I have made millions in SWTOR selling unwanted mats for the going price. Once again, we have a poster here that wants to charge more for items than they're worth. All of you people in support of this system are exactly the same, and keep coming back with the same argument: " I won't be able to overcharge for stuff when I have to compete against other sellers".

Common items are cheap....because they're common. Prices go down because the supply is higher than the demand. Your crafted items aren't any more special than anyone else's crafted items. If you want to sell expensive stuff, sell rare stuff. If you want to make money on common crap, sell more common crap. What we have with this system, and what Xabien up there likes to call a "vibrant economy" is artificially induced inflation caused by market segregation.

And once again, you're not reading previous arguments...you are comparing apples to oranges. What works in one game won't work in the next unless they have identical systems. Is the best gear in SWTOR obtained thru PvE content or crafting? Because that matters. Not to mention, SWTOR still have multiple servers, not one mega server.

If something is common enough, then it's probably not the only item listed on the guild store. No one is over charging for "commonly" dropped items. Probably for low tier gear with the rarer traits for researching purposes, but your example is far fetched, unsupported, and blatantly ridiculous. You have no idea what you are talking about.

You also get your end game crafting materials from deconstructing and processing raw material...is that how it is in SWTOR? What happens when the Global Auction house is absolutely flooded with raw materials in unlimited supply (cuz sweatshops, etc) and every level 50 crafter is processing them...? Pages upon pages of legendary crafting mats. Do you really think that drastic increase in supply is good for crafter's end game? Considering gear in this game isn't consumed after time, looks like your idea allows for a butt ton of input and not a lot of output.

In all honesty, if gear broke like it did in Pre-CU SWG...I would be ALL FOR an auction house. But in the current state an auction house would not be enough to stimulate the crafting professions.

You might be narrow minded right now and just thinking about dungeon loot and what not, but the best gear in this game is supposed to be coming from crafters.

Alright, Everquest 2, GW2, WoW, SWTOR, Rift all have central markets. GW2 has mega server. Each one of these games has different gear systems, different end game gear, different crafting, yet every market is virtually identical. I play them all, I buy what I need and sell what I don't. Prices on common items are driven down by over supply, prices on rare items are driven up by lack of supply. Doesn't matter if its "legendary" or not, if its a common item, its a cheap item. You can't arbitrarily assign a price tag because you think it should be worth more because it says "legendary" on it. Crafting and gear will always evolve...what is rare and worth something now may be useless crap in the next expansion. Again, all i see is someone complaining about not being able to charge as much as they want.

Makkir

Every single one of those games listed provides raids for the top tier gear. ESO's economy is crafter centric. A central auction house in WoW is not detrimental because the players don't rely on crafters for their gear. Jesus...it's like talking to a *** door knob.

I can charge as much as I want, but doesn't mean I will get it. If someone buys it, then it's worth what they paid. If not, I would have to relist at a lower price. I don't understand how you cannot comprehend something so fundamental.

Makkir

All I see is a next gen MMO'er complaining he has to shop around to find what he wants.
But yeah....more power to the game and less in the hands of the players. Lets make a communist type of economy and give everyone welfare epics as WoW calls it because, well, a gear disparity is a bad thing.


/sarcasm off

Drachenfier

Makkir wrote: »

Every single one of those games listed provides raids for the top tier gear. ESO's economy is crafter centric. A central auction house in WoW is not detrimental because the players don't rely on crafters for their gear. Jesus...it's like talking to a *** door knob.

Who gives a ***? Jesus christ, the price of gear doesn't impact its stats or how it performs in pve/pvp. What we're talking about here is what the gear is worth. Who decides that, you? You seem to think so....none of the crap you're spewing here has anything to do with how markets actually work. What are you afraid of, that everyone will have access to crafted gear at end game? Well gee whiz, isn't that the *** point? If its not a raid centric game, what do you expect?

Drachenfier

Makkir wrote: »

All I see is a next gen MMO'er complaining he has to shop around to find what he wants.
But yeah....more power to the game and less in the hands of the players. Lets make a communist type of economy and give everyone welfare epics as WoW calls it because, well, a gear disparity is a bad thing.


/sarcasm off

Centralized market puts more in the hands of the players, obviously. It provides us many more options and much, much more access. Wow, who'da thunk it.

I'm starting to think some of you are being purposefully obtuse.

Makkir

Drachenfier wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Every single one of those games listed provides raids for the top tier gear. ESO's economy is crafter centric. A central auction house in WoW is not detrimental because the players don't rely on crafters for their gear. Jesus...it's like talking to a *** door knob.

Who gives a ***? Jesus christ, the price of gear doesn't impact its stats or how it performs in pve/pvp. What we're talking about here is what the gear is worth. Who decides that, you? You seem to think so....none of the crap you're spewing here has anything to do with how markets actually work. What are you afraid of, that everyone will have access to crafted gear at end game? Well gee whiz, isn't that the *** point? If its not a raid centric game, what do you expect?

I think a class system in a market like we have in America is key to survival. Otherwise no one will be there to clean up your poop or pick up your trash. We have a half-a$$ backwards welfare system where we reward people for not working, not going to school, being stupid, and breeding uncontrollably. Where's the incentive to work when your government hands everything to you? The key isn't subsidizing where you bring the bottom up and top down, like WoW does by making end game epics available to extreme casual players. That's the point.

I would expect in an economy like this game's, the hard core players and those who spend a large portion of their gold and time to be the ones running around in full legendary gear...not someone who plays an hour a day and buys all his gold from (insert mmo.game.buy website here). Because with a central auction house you are enabling that sort of thing to happen and devaluing all the end game gear. Letting crafters set their own prices helps to slow down gear distribution too. Casuals are going to have spend more time making gold and searching for gear to obtain end game gear, the guys who play all day and night will have access to it sooner.

I am trying to keep crafters from going extinct. No one's going to do it if the price for crafts becomes stagnant and drops so low it isn't worth the time or skill point investment.

Right now, you have access to all the gear in game. You can craft it yourself because every class was made self sufficient. Or you can look around for someone to craft what you want by working a little bit and posting on the forums or in trade chat. That's considered content to some of us.

What I wont stand for however, is an automated system that allows thousands of chinese laborers working on pennies per hour to flood the market with raw materials and trade goods, completely destroying the thing I love about this game.

I will go on record and say I would not MIND an Auction House if ZOS would find a way to prevent foreign IPs from playing on the NA server, and I especially would not mind an AH if the gear we craft broke after so long and needed to be replaced.

Drachenfier

Makkir wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Every single one of those games listed provides raids for the top tier gear. ESO's economy is crafter centric. A central auction house in WoW is not detrimental because the players don't rely on crafters for their gear. Jesus...it's like talking to a *** door knob.

Who gives a ***? Jesus christ, the price of gear doesn't impact its stats or how it performs in pve/pvp. What we're talking about here is what the gear is worth. Who decides that, you? You seem to think so....none of the crap you're spewing here has anything to do with how markets actually work. What are you afraid of, that everyone will have access to crafted gear at end game? Well gee whiz, isn't that the *** point? If its not a raid centric game, what do you expect?

I think a class system in a market like we have in America is key to survival. Otherwise no one will be there to clean up your poop or pick up your trash. We have a half-a$$ backwards welfare system where we reward people for not working, not going to school, being stupid, and breeding uncontrollably. Where's the incentive to work when your government hands everything to you? The key isn't subsidizing where you bring the bottom up and top down, like WoW does by making end game epics available to extreme casual players. That's the point.

I would expect in an economy like this game's, the hard core players and those who spend a large portion of their gold and time to be the ones running around in full legendary gear...not someone who plays an hour a day and buys all his gold from (insert mmo.game.buy website here). Because with a central auction house you are enabling that sort of thing to happen and devaluing all the end game gear. Letting crafters set their own prices helps to slow down gear distribution too. Casuals are going to have spend more time making gold and searching for gear to obtain end game gear, the guys who play all day and night will have access to it sooner.

I am trying to keep crafters from going extinct. No one's going to do it, if the price for crafts becomes stagnant and drops so low it isn't worth the time or skill point investment.

I can see where you're coming from, but you're asking for stuff to be valuable just because of what it is, not what it's actually worth. That being said, if the mats for the highest crafted gear are rare, then what you describe above is exactly what you'll see - the hard core guys with the best gear. And hey, I am all for that to be completely honest. But I'm talking about actual rarity, not market segregation.

And by the way, I absolutely 100% agree with your assessment of our welfare system. But, I don't see the correlation between that and an open market.

Makkir

Drachenfier wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

All I see is a next gen MMO'er complaining he has to shop around to find what he wants.
But yeah....more power to the game and less in the hands of the players. Lets make a communist type of economy and give everyone welfare epics as WoW calls it because, well, a gear disparity is a bad thing.


/sarcasm off

Centralized market puts more in the hands of the players, obviously. It provides us many more options and much, much more access. Wow, who'da thunk it.

I'm starting to think some of you are being purposefully obtuse.

Because you're considering "players" to be legit players. You're not thinking about our thousands of foreign friends who play this game 24/7 for a business...
It provides you a tool to see every seller's item side by side for price comparison. Since items don't differ in stats like they did in SWG, the obvious buying choice is the lowest price. So it's not really a choice is it, it's a given.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Arizona_Willie wrote: »

What a shame.

ESO could be a great game.

I enjoyed it a lot but at a certain stage an AH become a necessity as far as I'm concerned.

I will NOT return until they have an Auction House.

Now I'm playing Dying Light.

Definitely no AH needed there

One central AH makes it easier for gold farmers and bots to corner the market. We now have guild traders through out Tamriel. Some of the smaller guilds get traders near way shrines out in the wilderness but bigger guilds with tons of stuff usually get the traders in the big cities. So there are usually 5 or more guild traders all in one spot. I like it. Instead of everyone under cutting people and making the market go completely stale, I can go to one trader, view the wares and price out what I want, move 5ft over to another trader and find that trader sells the same thing I want for less. It's a lot easier than at launch.

ZOS_TristanK

Hi, all. The discussion is getting quite heated and a bit personal. We've done a bit of moderating in this thread and would like to see you all continue to discuss our economy and auction houses constructively. Remember, if you feel yourself getting a bit too heated, take a break and come back to the thread refreshed.

Rohaus

Don't tell me my biness! Haha

Just yesterday I was looking for Warlock rings... Good grief... I ran clear across the entire continent trying to find the rings... When I finally did find them, the person was asking eye gouging price.

I want a better auction system.

Thank you,

Tandor

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

One central AH makes it easier for gold farmers and bots to corner the market. We now have guild traders through out Tamriel. Some of the smaller guilds get traders near way shrines out in the wilderness but bigger guilds with tons of stuff usually get the traders in the big cities. So there are usually 5 or more guild traders all in one spot. I like it. Instead of everyone under cutting people and making the market go completely stale, I can go to one trader, view the wares and price out what I want, move 5ft over to another trader and find that trader sells the same thing I want for less. It's a lot easier than at launch.

It's certainly easier than it was at launch, but that's hardly saying much!

It's still pretty hopeless if you're looking for something as a buyer, and if you're selling and either don't want to be in a guild or else don't happen to be in one of that particular week's lucky guilds then you are so out of luck. The system is broken for all but those making a killing at prices that they themselves concede will fall if the system is changed. I'm always sceptical about an argument against change that has as its central premise the fact that the person making the argument will make less profit if the change comes about. Those defending the present system really do need to come up with a better case than that.

Grapdjan

Genomic wrote: »

I feel the pro-AH vs anti-AH groups would closely align with "has a job" and "doesn't have a job" groups as well. If you work, have a family (that you pay attention to that is), the inventory management and current trade system will take a huge bite out of the limited time you have to play the game. It's terribly wasteful to those who don't have all day to fool around with a flawed, clunky and inefficient system.

Exactly my thoughts. Meaning if zos want to keep people playing who are able to drop a bunch of cash on the game then the smart move is to make trade easier, so those people can log in for their 1 or 2 hours, loot some stuff, make some stuff, list it for sale, make a bit of cash... etc etc.

Such nonsense system going on right now, driving players away..

Baffling that it is so.

Grapdjan

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Knight150 wrote: »

Yep needs somewhere you can sell goods easily stupid restrictive system at the moment.

You can join 5 guilds.

That leaves you 1 guild for the PvE centric, 1 Guild for the PvP centric, 1 Social guild or a bank guild if you got 10 friends that want 500 slots of shareable bank space, and 2 spaces left for 2 trade guilds.

That's all the selling you could ever need.

Buying? Go to a city with multiple guild traders close together.

Heaven forbid you actually have to make an effort to do anything rewarding.

oh yea? 2 spaces for selling? 60 slots, to sell to a tiny percentage of the game?

Wow that's great. I cannot understand how so many seemingly intelligent people are failing to comprehend how broken the system currently is, and how much it is damaging the game.

Tandor

Grapdjan wrote: »

Wow that's great. I cannot understand how so many seemingly intelligent people are failing to comprehend how broken the system currently is, and how much it is damaging the game.

That'll be because the system isn't broken for them, they doing very well under it.

Alphashado

Grapdjan wrote: »

Wow that's great. I cannot understand how so many seemingly intelligent people are failing to comprehend how broken the system currently is, and how much it is damaging the game.

As I am sure has already been explained in this thread and countless other threads: Due to the Mega Server, it would have to be a GLOBAL auction house.

Crafting is a huge part of this game, and it always will be. A Global auction house diminishes any value to be had in crafting. The devs have said as much and I agree. They have also said that a global auction house puts every item instantly at the fingertips of every player, therefore diminishing any sense of earn or accomplishment. I also agree with this.

I have seen Global AH in GW2 and Diablo 3 and I want no part of it. I have zero desire to partake in an auction system with hundreds of thousands or even a million other people.

I would love to see a centralized market AH like WoW, but that is not possible here. WoW and other games like it that countless people blindly reference as a good system have INDEPENDENT servers.

I have seen a global AH. It has been weighed, measured, and found extremely wanting. I want no part of it.

Jaxsun

Thelon wrote: »

c00lmon wrote: »

Yes and that means that I have to go to every city to look at them and not a central location. This is crazy for buyers and to time consuming.

If they were all accessible from one central location, why would trade guilds compete for prime locations? How do you propose to replace the massive gold sink that trade guild competition provides?

This shouldn't exist to begin with...

Makillda

Makkir wrote: »

Every single one of those games listed provides raids for the top tier gear. ESO's economy is crafter centric. A central auction house in WoW is not detrimental because the players don't rely on crafters for their gear. Jesus...it's like talking to a *** door knob.

I can charge as much as I want, but doesn't mean I will get it. If someone buys it, then it's worth what they paid. If not, I would have to relist at a lower price. I don't understand how you cannot comprehend something so fundamental.

To be fair, he's been basing his arguments on SWToR's economy. Unless something has changed drastically since I stopped playing, BIS gear could be obtained both by raiding for drops and by crafting via reverse-engineering those drops to learn how to craft them.

Regarding WoW, when Warlords released last fall, the source for the best gear in the game was crafting. Unfortunately, you are limited to 3 pieces of crafted gear. Still, I made a ton of gold selling crafted gear on the AH. Even after the raids opened up, the crafted gear was sought after just because you could get the stats you wanted to min/max your toon. The fact that you could upgrade the crafted gear to remain competitive with raid gear helped a ton. With the central AH, the economy did not collapse. In fact, it prospered under that system because the crafted gear was the best or at least close enough that it didn't matter and the AH reached everybody on the entire server at once. This paradigm will shift if the devs don't allow for crafting to keep up with raid drops, though.

I have no stake in this debate as I haven't played enough to have formed an opinion one way or the other. I just wanted to comment on those two misconceptions.

@ the bolded statement above: That's exactly how the AH works in any MMO that has one. Strange.

Alphashado

People please stop using games like WoW or swtor as some kind of comparison. Those games have individual servers. An auction house in ESO would be NOTHING like what you see in those games. There is a huge difference between an isolated market limited to individual servers and a global system on a mega server.

GW2 ah is a good example. Or diablo 3. But it's NOTHING like wow. You have to see it for yourself to understand I guess.

Makillda

Alphashado wrote: »

People please stop using games like WoW or swtor as some kind of comparison. Those games have individual servers. An auction house in ESO would be NOTHING like what you see in those games. There is a huge difference between an isolated market limited to individual servers and a global system on a mega server.

GW2 ah is a good example. Or diablo 3. But it's NOTHING like wow. You have to see it for yourself to understand I guess.

Calling it a megaserver doesn't automagically mean that there are more people on ESO than there are on any single high-pop WoW server.

On that front, is there a census somewhere that shows the population of ESO? Numbers like that would provide something missing from the argument above: facts.

Krayor

For the trillionth time, Diablo 3 is the worst example for comparison due to the nature of it dealing with real world currency transactions. That is an apples to oranges comparison.

It's just as bad an argument as "auction houses being the reason gold farmers exist". Just don't.

The other MMOs are a much better comparison.

Alphashado

Krayor wrote: »

For the trillionth time, Diablo 3 is the worst example for comparison due to the nature of it dealing with real world currency transactions. That is an apples to oranges comparison.

It's just as asinine an argument as auction houses being the reason gold farmers exist. Just don't.

The other MMOs are a much better comparison.

Sorry, but they just aren't. Go look at any wow, rift, or swtor ah, then look at Gw2. There is your true comparison. Until you have seen it for yourself, you are just speculating on something you don't understand.

Gidorick

OR just visit the below link!:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159594/eso-needs-an-auction-horse-expanded-concept/p1

Malmai

This is MMO and needs AH i don't mind if there are guild stores for RPG people...

Sinthrax

Alphashado wrote: »

People please stop using games like WoW or swtor as some kind of comparison. Those games have individual servers. An auction house in ESO would be NOTHING like what you see in those games. There is a huge difference between an isolated market limited to individual servers and a global system on a mega server.

GW2 ah is a good example. Or diablo 3. But it's NOTHING like wow. You have to see it for yourself to understand I guess.

I like the one we have. Thank you. I don't need a reason or have to explain myself. I like it and that's that. Those other games are just that...other games.

Alphashado

Sinthrax wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

People please stop using games like WoW or swtor as some kind of comparison. Those games have individual servers. An auction house in ESO would be NOTHING like what you see in those games. There is a huge difference between an isolated market limited to individual servers and a global system on a mega server.

GW2 ah is a good example. Or diablo 3. But it's NOTHING like wow. You have to see it for yourself to understand I guess.

I like the one we have. Thank you. I don't need a reason or have to explain myself. I like it and that's that. Those other games are just that...other games.

Umm. I agree. Not sure why you quoted me because I like the current system as well. It's not perfect, but it's unique in a day and age where it's almost impossible to be unique.

Seems to me that the people that are the most upset are those that expect every item in the game to be cheap and easily attainable w/o any time or effort.

I guess I am old school. I like the idea that it's worth your time to learn crafting and that crafters are in high demand because people can't stroll up to an auctioneer and buy someone else's hard work for pennies.

I like the communities trading guilds create. I like all the different stalls. Each representing a different collection of merchants. Each with their own prices. If you don't like their prices, you can move on to the next stall.

I like the fact that you are rewarded for time and effort rather than getting things handed to you.

You shouldn't instantly be able to find a v12 warlock ring. They are rare. And when you do find one, it should be expensive because it's a rare item. Most of the complaints I see are from people frustrated because they have to travel all over the place trying to find rare or semi rare items. Then upset because those rare items are expensive.

To each their own I guess, but from my perspective, it's working as intended and I like it just fine.