Siege Damage Intended to hit for 24k?

Phoenix99 · March 2015

I am sorry, but the dude in the video showed ZERO situational awareness. He did not rotate his camera EVEN ONCE, to check where he is relative to others from his alliance, and he did not even bother to glance check if the big red circle at the gate was caused by an allied siege weapon or enemy... No wonder he dies from siege equipment elsewhere if he shows an awareness of a worm.

Yes, the build, most likely copied from someone else based on how thoughtful he was in his combat maneuvers. The guy has even no backup weapon, just is shoehorned into his 2h build and his actions in the combat are an epitome of what the "tunnel vision" is.

there is a difference in gear ON the player which is permanent and you need to only acquire once, and is ready to use in any situation at any time, to a siege weapon, that is 1k+ AP consumable, with a set up time, rotation time and significant flight time, unless you eat it at point blank (then I question your skills again)

Nothing in the video shows an amazing skill in comparison to someone who knows how to use terrain, flank undetected and find a good spot to fire (if out in the field) OR someone who knows how to position himself and his siege on the walls or outside the walls to the maximum effect.

xDOVAHKIINx · March 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

this

frozywozy · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

Gravord · March 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault.

Thats sadly not exactly true. More than half Cyrodiil are pve cities, dungeons and villages without any value to campaign scoring, which is big mistake as it would split population and give feeling of large pvp area. Real pvp happening either at keeps/outpots/objectives or on straight route to them only. Plus on chokepoints like bridge or gate. Its big design flaw and changing that would help a lot with decreasing amount of blobing/zerging and lags.

Gravord · March 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am sorry, but the dude in the video showed ZERO situational awareness. He did not rotate his camera EVEN ONCE, to check where he is relative to others from his alliance, and he did not even bother to glance check if the big red circle at the gate was caused by an allied siege weapon or enemy... No wonder he dies from siege equipment elsewhere if he shows an awareness of a worm.

Yes, the build, most likely copied from someone else based on how thoughtful he was in his combat maneuvers. The guy has even no backup weapon, just is shoehorned into his 2h build and his actions in the combat are an epitome of what the "tunnel vision" is.

there is a difference in gear ON the player which is permanent and you need to only acquire once, and is ready to use in any situation at any time, to a siege weapon, that is 1k+ AP consumable, with a set up time, rotation time and significant flight time, unless you eat it at point blank (then I question your skills again)

Nothing in the video shows an amazing skill in comparison to someone who knows how to use terrain, flank undetected and find a good spot to fire (if out in the field) OR someone who knows how to position himself and his siege on the walls or outside the walls to the maximum effect.

Heh. Mate, ill try not insult you even if you talk such bs that i want to puke.
Sure i dont rotate my camera to see my "others from my alliance" because theres not any of them in most situations posted on vid. Not running with nab blob and not counting on their support. Its me and my team, win or loose its up to us only.
As it goes about dodging, maybe just watch again as you are either blind or just see what you want to see to support your silly statement.
Build is made by me and for my playstyle. Stupid 5 button limitation force me to have second same weapon for Momentum only as i have no place for it on first bar. Would be happy to take shield and boost my def when i need it but our devs are more concerned about giving console player not too many buttons more than they are concerned about pc gamers gameplay quality.
"Gear need to be aquire once" every patch as most sets was messed up. Siege weapon cost outstanding 1k ap? You get that in 1 kill and you can wipe 20 ppl in one shot, soo high cost... set up time 1 second? Daamn. Aim from safety, shot covering huge area. Risk vs reward totally unbalanced. And comparing planning to build proper gear setup to refilling whole invetory with balistas and catapults, yeah, the second one is harder for sure!
Please do show me a video of your outstanding skills. As melee, when you have all snipers/sorcs/root spamming tanks on you, please do.
But, its futile, you think that placing siege on a wall is more demanding task, so what we even talk about...

Satiar · March 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

So only tank builds should be viable?

There were tank builds, regen builds, resource pool builds, glass canon builds, lots of interesting options.

But now it's stack up l2p and you like it? You think less build diversity is good?

People who play tanky chars on classes with class shields are acting all high and mighty right now cuz the meta just swapped to favor them. This is not necessarily a good thing.

Phoenix99 · March 2015

I am sorry, what, but rotating camera to check what is going on is a standard procedure among high skill players to check:

1) if you have any support
2) if enemy has any support nearby

just to mention the 2 most important. If you do not bother with that, because you are "too awesome" then I could not care less about your whining.

Also, I also use a stamina build, but I made concessions and decided to sport a bow as a back up weapon with leveled skills in there, and I use my heavy armor vs medium armor to boost survivability if I go on melee among possible focus fire, also I do not charge blindly in on the first target I see, first I glance around and if I can, I try to keep others coming to me to get MY terrain advantage.

siege on the walls is the part of the keep fights, you have them firing both ways, it is a GOOD design to have them powerful.

I thought that initially you whined about being shot in the field.

BTW, check your video from 2:08 and check what you roll dodged. you used it total of 3 times!!! and twice just to roll out of the sorc spell and once out of the root. You did not even bother to check what was firing at you, despite big circle appearing TWICE. You just chased your target not seeing anything else around you. Also what sane person would go fight there in melee?, when you can get dropped by oil and spam from above.... like seriously.

STOP whining and L2P

Gravord · March 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am sorry, what, but rotating camera to check what is going on is a standard procedure among high skill players to check:

1) if you have any support
2) if enemy has any support nearby

just to mention the 2 most important. If you do not bother with that, because you are "too awesome" then I could not care less about your whining.

Also, I also use a stamina build, but I made concessions and decided to sport a bow as a back up weapon with leveled skills in there, and I use my heavy armor vs medium armor to boost survivability if I go on melee among possible focus fire, also I do not charge blindly in on the first target I see, first I glance around and if I can, I try to keep others coming to me to get MY terrain advantage.

siege on the walls is the part of the keep fights, you have them firing both ways, it is a GOOD design to have them powerful.

I thought that initially you whined about being shot in the field.

BTW, check your video from 2:08 and check what you roll dodged. you used it total of 3 times!!! and twice just to roll out of the sorc spell and once out of the root. You did not even bother to check what was firing at you, despite big circle appearing TWICE. You just chased your target not seeing anything else around you. Also what sane person would go fight there in melee?, when you can get dropped by oil and spam from above.... like seriously.

STOP whining and L2P

You know what snare is? If yes, then you know dodge roll movement is faster than walk/sprint with snare on you and help swap position in the field.

Also:
1. i dont whine but state facts
2. i didnt die to siege yet
3. summarizing - its constructive critic of broken mechanic - not every critic is whining but if you dont get the difference then im afraid i cant help you understand it

Also, pvp is not about sanity but about fun. If somebody like to play melee, he can but he accept the risk it comes with. Same for range, healers and tanks. But if somebody like to sit in safe spot on the wall spamming something that dont require any char or player skills and can 1 shot ppl, then its nothing near pvp but flaw system favorizing weaklings not putting any effort to improve char and their gameplay.

frozywozy · March 2015

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

So only tank builds should be viable?

There were tank builds, regen builds, resource pool builds, glass canon builds, lots of interesting options.

But now it's stack up l2p and you like it? You think less build diversity is good?

People who play tanky chars on classes with class shields are acting all high and mighty right now cuz the meta just swapped to favor them. This is not necessarily a good thing.

What ? Why are you seeing the extreme opposite of a glass cannon ? You don't need to be a huge tank stacking 5shields and wearing sets that give shield bonus to be able to resist against siege damage. You only need one shield ability, or dodge roll. Then you switch a couple points from magicka &/or stamina into health. Then you designate people in your group to be on the siege shield / purge / breath of life / healing spring duty. Usually templar or nightblade healers/supports. As simple as that.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO · March 2015

Weberda wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

Just becasue death recap shows you 24k fire balista does not mean it hit you for 24000, it hit you for 12k and then the dot ticks from 12k aswell, same with radiant destruction and all other dots

A lot of people don't understand this and you're going to see countless posts with death recaps showing big siege damage. There are many ways to avoid it as listed way above this post. Last night we used zone chat to help people cope with it and most had a great time. We lost a lot of keeps but mainly that was due to being considerably outnumbered (as usual). At the end it was the lag that finally caused many to rage and quit, not the siege. And of course an AD group spamming healing springs etc. on the flags at Chal showing off what great skills they have..

Did this EP just say they are usually out numbered ? LOL....reds are the faction with the most players by far.....I thought he was DC at first then did some digging and nope. The faction that has had pop locked campaigns at almost all times during the day is definitely red, but keep telling yourself that LoL

Tintinabula · March 2015

so how many months I gotta respec cause the devs choose to make nuclear siege weapons?..wheres my free spec?..TYVM

P.S. this is the main reason I got tired of RIFT..having to respec weekly cause they couldn't gauge skills in moderation.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2015

Siege is as it should have been months ago. Face facts folks this us AvAvA. This siege finally makes it that.

Cyrodiil is finally the 3 front war that was envisioned instead of a glorified arena.

Arki · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am sorry, what, but rotating camera to check what is going on is a standard procedure among high skill players to check:

1) if you have any support
2) if enemy has any support nearby

just to mention the 2 most important. If you do not bother with that, because you are "too awesome" then I could not care less about your whining.

Also, I also use a stamina build, but I made concessions and decided to sport a bow as a back up weapon with leveled skills in there, and I use my heavy armor vs medium armor to boost survivability if I go on melee among possible focus fire, also I do not charge blindly in on the first target I see, first I glance around and if I can, I try to keep others coming to me to get MY terrain advantage.

siege on the walls is the part of the keep fights, you have them firing both ways, it is a GOOD design to have them powerful.

I thought that initially you whined about being shot in the field.

BTW, check your video from 2:08 and check what you roll dodged. you used it total of 3 times!!! and twice just to roll out of the sorc spell and once out of the root. You did not even bother to check what was firing at you, despite big circle appearing TWICE. You just chased your target not seeing anything else around you. Also what sane person would go fight there in melee?, when you can get dropped by oil and spam from above.... like seriously.

STOP whining and L2P

You know what snare is? If yes, then you know dodge roll movement is faster than walk/sprint with snare on you and help swap position in the field.

Also:
1. i dont whine but state facts
2. i didnt die to siege yet
3. summarizing - its constructive critic of broken mechanic - not every critic is whining but if you dont get the difference then im afraid i cant help you understand it

Also, pvp is not about sanity but about fun. If somebody like to play melee, he can but he accept the risk it comes with. Same for range, healers and tanks. But if somebody like to sit in safe spot on the wall spamming something that dont require any char or player skills and can 1 shot ppl, then its nothing near pvp but flaw system favorizing weaklings not putting any effort to improve char and their gameplay.

You do like a heated argument don't you, no grey areas allowed?

I can agree with the statement about deployment time though, it should take a few more secs to increase the risk and by that making siege less viable to suddenly use in a skirmish.

Other than that it is a very welcome addition to the tactical side of large scale pvp imo. When and where you put up siege can have a huge impact by a coordinated team. A single obvious sieger should be cannon fodder to any good player unless allready totally out of resources (but lets face it, in that situation you most likely allready are **cked).

Sylvyr · March 2015

SOUL GEMS! GET YOUR SOUL GEMS HERE! SOUL GEMS! 10 for 2K! YO!

Gravord · March 2015

Arki wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am sorry, what, but rotating camera to check what is going on is a standard procedure among high skill players to check:

1) if you have any support
2) if enemy has any support nearby

just to mention the 2 most important. If you do not bother with that, because you are "too awesome" then I could not care less about your whining.

Also, I also use a stamina build, but I made concessions and decided to sport a bow as a back up weapon with leveled skills in there, and I use my heavy armor vs medium armor to boost survivability if I go on melee among possible focus fire, also I do not charge blindly in on the first target I see, first I glance around and if I can, I try to keep others coming to me to get MY terrain advantage.

siege on the walls is the part of the keep fights, you have them firing both ways, it is a GOOD design to have them powerful.

I thought that initially you whined about being shot in the field.

BTW, check your video from 2:08 and check what you roll dodged. you used it total of 3 times!!! and twice just to roll out of the sorc spell and once out of the root. You did not even bother to check what was firing at you, despite big circle appearing TWICE. You just chased your target not seeing anything else around you. Also what sane person would go fight there in melee?, when you can get dropped by oil and spam from above.... like seriously.

STOP whining and L2P

You know what snare is? If yes, then you know dodge roll movement is faster than walk/sprint with snare on you and help swap position in the field.

Also:
1. i dont whine but state facts
2. i didnt die to siege yet
3. summarizing - its constructive critic of broken mechanic - not every critic is whining but if you dont get the difference then im afraid i cant help you understand it

Also, pvp is not about sanity but about fun. If somebody like to play melee, he can but he accept the risk it comes with. Same for range, healers and tanks. But if somebody like to sit in safe spot on the wall spamming something that dont require any char or player skills and can 1 shot ppl, then its nothing near pvp but flaw system favorizing weaklings not putting any effort to improve char and their gameplay.

You do like a heated argument don't you, no grey areas allowed? I can agree with the statement about deployment time though, it should take a few more secs to increase the risk and by that making siege less viable to suddenly use in a skirmish.

Other than that it is a very welcome addition to the tactical side of large scale pvp imo. When and where you put up siege can have a huge impact by a coordinated team. A single obvious sieger should be cannon fodder to any good player unless allready totally out of resources (but lets face it, in that situation you most likely allready are **cked).

Tactical? When and where? Its 20 of them everywhere... 0 tactic in that.

Arki · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

so how many months I gotta respec cause the devs choose to make nuclear siege weapons?..wheres my free spec?..TYVM

P.S. this is the main reason I got tired of RIFT..having to respec weekly cause they couldn't gauge skills in moderation.

Why would you respec?

Gravord wrote: »

Arki wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am sorry, what, but rotating camera to check what is going on is a standard procedure among high skill players to check:

1) if you have any support
2) if enemy has any support nearby

just to mention the 2 most important. If you do not bother with that, because you are "too awesome" then I could not care less about your whining.

Also, I also use a stamina build, but I made concessions and decided to sport a bow as a back up weapon with leveled skills in there, and I use my heavy armor vs medium armor to boost survivability if I go on melee among possible focus fire, also I do not charge blindly in on the first target I see, first I glance around and if I can, I try to keep others coming to me to get MY terrain advantage.

siege on the walls is the part of the keep fights, you have them firing both ways, it is a GOOD design to have them powerful.

I thought that initially you whined about being shot in the field.

BTW, check your video from 2:08 and check what you roll dodged. you used it total of 3 times!!! and twice just to roll out of the sorc spell and once out of the root. You did not even bother to check what was firing at you, despite big circle appearing TWICE. You just chased your target not seeing anything else around you. Also what sane person would go fight there in melee?, when you can get dropped by oil and spam from above.... like seriously.

STOP whining and L2P

You know what snare is? If yes, then you know dodge roll movement is faster than walk/sprint with snare on you and help swap position in the field.

Also:
1. i dont whine but state facts
2. i didnt die to siege yet
3. summarizing - its constructive critic of broken mechanic - not every critic is whining but if you dont get the difference then im afraid i cant help you understand it

Also, pvp is not about sanity but about fun. If somebody like to play melee, he can but he accept the risk it comes with. Same for range, healers and tanks. But if somebody like to sit in safe spot on the wall spamming something that dont require any char or player skills and can 1 shot ppl, then its nothing near pvp but flaw system favorizing weaklings not putting any effort to improve char and their gameplay.

You do like a heated argument don't you, no grey areas allowed? I can agree with the statement about deployment time though, it should take a few more secs to increase the risk and by that making siege less viable to suddenly use in a skirmish.

Other than that it is a very welcome addition to the tactical side of large scale pvp imo. When and where you put up siege can have a huge impact by a coordinated team. A single obvious sieger should be cannon fodder to any good player unless allready totally out of resources (but lets face it, in that situation you most likely allready are **cked).

Tactical? When and where? Its 20 of them everywhere... 0 tactic in that.

If the siege is layed out with no coordination or tactic it shouldnt be too hard to counter either. Or maybe you were simply outnumbered, siege or no siege? Ignoring an aspect of the game doesn't really prove that its inherently stupid or simple...

Kuro1n · March 2015

24k? Doesn't sound so bad after all.

And you know what? I don't mind, I think the game is waaaaaay better now.

Glurin · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what I just realized? PvPers (here and other places) often boast about how much more skilled they are than PvEers. How dueling is the only real test of a person's skill and ability. How the number of ears or scalps or noses you've got hanging from your belt is somehow indicative of how awesome you are and how only someone as elite as you could ever reach the same level of awesomeness no matter what the circumstances were when you got them.

You know what PvEers do all day, every day? Move out of the red circle of death.

I'm sorry but PvE counting the seconds til a red circle is thrown down..count one ...two...three...move to the left..1....2...3..everyone to the other corner...1...2....3 red circle move..is no comparison to dynamic pvp.

And yet they consistently manage to get out of the red circle while fulfilling their chosen role to the upper levels of it's potential whereas these "superior skilled" PvPers apparently cannot even manage to just not stand in it.

Cody · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Crappy siege spam began again. "Awesome" patch idea!
Remove that bs and let players fight vs players, not siege.

You can fight players pretty much anywhere in Cyrodiil. If you go to a keep seige, expect there to actually be siege weapons. even at tehe sieges you can easily avoid siege weapons, if you pay attention and dont mindlessly zerg

And anywhere in open field you start fight some 0 skill nab sitting in stealth plant his siege in 1 sec and start spamming. Not what pvp should be about.
Also, all the idiotic arguments about siege shields, dodging, cleansing. Was same bs excuses for ground oil. Why on earth would you need so much player skill, actions, skills, stamina to dodge and awareness to counter complete moron clicking 1 button on his siege? Wheres basic risk vs reward system? He risk nothing spamming his siege while his reward is greater than players doing real pvp can get. Complete broken system rewarding pathetic half asleep 1 clickers sitting on walls or in middle of blobs.

the risk is that that player would be completly motionless and defensless, and is leaving their backs wide open.

If they dont get jumped by at least one NB doing that, they got lucky.

now if its from the top of a keep its not hard to dodge, and even if you get hit, im pretty sure you have at least one purger in your group who can purge it for you if you cant yourself.

Cody · March 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

you just told everyone how to dodge siege and called it "half of what makes an MMO"

Tintinabula · March 2015

Glurin wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what I just realized? PvPers (here and other places) often boast about how much more skilled they are than PvEers. How dueling is the only real test of a person's skill and ability. How the number of ears or scalps or noses you've got hanging from your belt is somehow indicative of how awesome you are and how only someone as elite as you could ever reach the same level of awesomeness no matter what the circumstances were when you got them.

You know what PvEers do all day, every day? Move out of the red circle of death.

I'm sorry but PvE counting the seconds til a red circle is thrown down..count one ...two...three...move to the left..1....2...3..everyone to the other corner...1...2....3 red circle move..is no comparison to dynamic pvp.

And yet they consistently manage to get out of the red circle while fulfilling their chosen role to the upper levels of it's potential whereas these "superior skilled" PvPers apparently cannot even manage to just not stand in it.

you understand the word dynamic yea?...Unscripted...your PvE is all scripted..down to how long you can leash your enemies until they reset..there is no reset in pvp..Im not saying that it takes more skill to pvp...but dont try to compare the two.

Glurin · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what I just realized? PvPers (here and other places) often boast about how much more skilled they are than PvEers. How dueling is the only real test of a person's skill and ability. How the number of ears or scalps or noses you've got hanging from your belt is somehow indicative of how awesome you are and how only someone as elite as you could ever reach the same level of awesomeness no matter what the circumstances were when you got them.

You know what PvEers do all day, every day? Move out of the red circle of death.

I'm sorry but PvE counting the seconds til a red circle is thrown down..count one ...two...three...move to the left..1....2...3..everyone to the other corner...1...2....3 red circle move..is no comparison to dynamic pvp.

And yet they consistently manage to get out of the red circle while fulfilling their chosen role to the upper levels of it's potential whereas these "superior skilled" PvPers apparently cannot even manage to just not stand in it.

you understand the word dynamic yea?...Unscripted...your PvE is all scripted..down to how long you can leash your enemies until they reset..there is no reset in pvp..Im not saying that it takes more skill to pvp...but dont try to compare the two.

Doesn't matter how scripted it is. There are plenty of events in PvE where the attack script is simply that you are the target for an incoming AOE and have just seconds to avoid getting killed. In fact, some of them are specifically a big red circle appears under your feet and a moment later a huge boulder comes down at that very spot. Many of those specific events even randomly select who get's to play "dodge the huge, flaming rock" if there's more than one of you.

"You can predict when it's coming." You're staring at a keep wall. There will be siege.
"You can reset your enemies." So? You still have to deal with incoming AOE if you wanna kill him.
"Siege can one shot you and PvE won't." I'll give you a lesson on high level TSW PvE mechanics. (Figured I'd head that one off at the pass.)

So tell me again how dodging siege fire isn't comparable.

Tintinabula · March 2015

you show me a PVE instance where nighblades come out of nowhere for the very first time and as a tank you run in to to tank them and then sporadically 5 siege weapons trained on you start dropping red circles all around while you try to stay alive with the mobs you just engaged..and then we will talk.

krim · March 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

This needs to be pinned on the front page.

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO · March 2015

At first I thought siege damage was too much, but now I think it's pretty par for the course.

For the record, I play off-tank magicka DK. When hit by a fire trebuchet (at full life, unbuffed) I can survive the intial hit and about two ticks. Unless I heal or purge, the third tick kills me.

I won't say realistic, because we have meteors, pyromancy and Pelinal Beams. Instead i will say logical.

Huge flaming debris to the face = pain and death, if not magic.

The truth is that siege weapons were pathetic before. When was the last time you bought a lightning ballista? Now siege weapons are the equivelent of rl tanks. You try to defeat them with infantry, you had better have good tactics.

1)Did I just one-shot your whole raid? Your fault for bunching up when I'm packing heat. Thanks for the AP, would nuke again.

2)Are you a vampire? (Nice 40K dmg) If I manage to see you before you start mutilating my face, pull out your fangs and start wearing some heavy armor.

3)Am I threatening your whole zerg with a dinky fire ballista? Then you are a bunch of cowards with no coordination. Siege weapons have cooldowns and steer like venerable cows. Flank me and rush me. A siege operator is a sitting duck.

4)Are you a healer? Congratulations, you are now USEFUL. You only need to touch siege while the opponents are sleeping. Instead it is YOUR job to keep everyone alive.

5)Do you want to conserve your AP to buy some shiny rings? Too bad, you need to buy siege like the rest of the server.

Now, if ZOS decided to allow for FRIENDLY FIRE with siege, I wouldn't complain...

Phoenix99 · March 2015

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Now, if ZOS decided to allow for FRIENDLY FIRE with siege, I wouldn't complain...

No thanks, I can already see lvl 10 spies planting oil pots or other siege and packing a whallop at unexpected defenders within the keep, while you cant kill the guy within the mechanics.

Glurin · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

you show me a PVE instance where nighblades come out of nowhere for the very first time and as a tank you run in to to tank them and then sporadically 5 siege weapons trained on you start dropping red circles all around while you try to stay alive with the mobs you just engaged..and then we will talk.

You mean a standard boss with strong adds fight?

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

Phoenix99 · March 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

and there still is place for glass canons, just dont get hit by the siege weapon.... i mean, unless you are building a melee glass canon (which is then stupid) then you should have zero problem with kiting siege, I can do it as a melee/ranged hybrid, so can you (today got 1 hit killed by treb and only beca\use i thought I can stay 1 more second to shoot my stuff).

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

and there still is place for glass canons, just dont get hit by the siege weapon.... i mean, unless you are building a melee glass canon (which is then stupid) then you should have zero problem with kiting siege, I can do it as a melee/ranged hybrid, so can you (today got 1 hit killed by treb and only beca\use i thought I can stay 1 more second to shoot my stuff).

Sorry, but did you play an MMO before?
Just asking, because you are pretending that a melee character can't be a glass canon. We're playing in a team, with one or more healers, you know?

But yes, you are right: in ESO it's just not possible to do that, and it's one one numerous issues of this game: being too limited in the role and build, and forcing people to have all the same stuff and template.