Siege Damage Intended to hit for 24k?

xDOVAHKIINx

In a few days i am sure all those "big zergs" you guys are so happy to finally be able to kill, will all start to use siege on every inch of every keep. Then you will all be so sorry you ever said anything positive about the current siege damage. As an AD i hope DC and EP come with rain of fire so these AD can see their folly.

IcyDeadPeople

katekatienancy wrote: »

As a friend of mine put it, the game will become "Elder Siege Online."

More like "Michael Bay Online" amirite?

They will probably be nerfed, but I'm having fun with the siege wars. It's a bit crazy, certainly a change of pace.

FENGRUSH

xDOVAHKIINx wrote: »

In a few days i am sure all those "big zergs" you guys are so happy to finally be able to kill, will all start to use siege on every inch of every keep. Then you will all be so sorry you ever said anything positive about the current siege damage. As an AD i hope DC and EP come with rain of fire so these AD can see their folly.

As long as theyre not fighting them in a ball formation I dont think anyone cares.

Head.hunter

Sounds like alliance camps are going to be needed more than ever.

TequilaFire

What might be a good compromise is to reduce the diameter of the red so you have to have a little more skill and actually aim a siege weapon better.

PeggymoeXD

Snit wrote: »

I managed to participate in a half-dozen keep battles tonight. I died to siege once, but only because someone CC'd me first. The rest of the time, I just... moved out of red.

THANK YOU. I PvP'ed for hours yesterday, and died twice to siege. Once just in an offensive siege, and the other because someone hit me from alessia keep while I was solo'ing the mine lol

Just don't stand in the frickin red.

PeggymoeXD

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Hektlk wrote: »

The changes to siege damage is absolutely *** ***. It's just a way for [snip] to feel like they are relevant at PVP.

Siege changes are worth it just to see an EP post this.

I'm with you. And I'm EP.

frozywozy

ThyIronFist wrote: »

This thread makes me very happy.

I'll make sure to hit the store tomorrow and get myself some popcorn. This is beautiful.

Anyhow, there are many, many ways of countering siege. As most of veterans know;

- Purge
- Siege bubble
- Use heals and/or stack shields
- Use abilities or armour sets that reduce damage/AoE/siege damage
- Kill the defenseless player operating the siege
- Move out of the red circle!!!!!!!!
- Shoot at the siege weapon with a normal ballista to destroy it
- Take cover
- Siege weapons have to reload, if its reloading, it wont kill you


I know it's hard, lol, but for the veterans, like myself, you've had the past 12 months to learn and avoid that obvious red circle on the ground. Most players just got used of staying inside it, knowing that it wouldnt 1 or 2 shot them.

I experienced it myself for several hours before coming here and stating my own opinion on the matter and I must admit that it is working very well. There are some adjustments to bring but it is still much better than it used to be prior fix.

I have read every single reply from this thread so far and from what I can see, people who complain about it are people who don't like to be one shotted or to see their health bar drop drastically. Some other people also believe that this fix will actually favor zergs in most scenarios and make them a bigger threat. I still have a hard time to understand their point but we will get through this in a moment.

What I do feel is and it's been mentioned here a couple times is that people got lazy and got used to just stand in the circles and eat the damage from sieges, the last couple months. They would pop GDB, Healing Ward or BoL once and that's it.

This isn't how the game was designed to be though. Siege is supposed to be deployed to give a major advantage to the people who use it. You are supposed to adjust in consequence to survive against siege. You are supposed to either move out of the way and engage from another direction or you gear and spec accordingly to allow you to absorb the damage delt.

Like people mentioned, too many players are spec as glass cannons and expect to be successful in battle in any scenario. Well sir, it is time for you to realize that you must find the perfect balance in this world to be effective. If you are the extreme type of player who prefer to play all or nothing, well you can either play the sneaky 14k hps nightblade glass cannon roll stealther or you can be the big wild dragonknight heavy armor type of guy. Or you find the just middle and can still deal with siege absolutely fine.

In any scenario, people need to realize that you must get back your old reflexes of avoiding siege damage. You must also keep in mind that when people start deploying massive amount of sieges in front of you, well, you weren't fast enough to engage them and that was just bad positioning and coordinating there. Fall back and try to go from a different angle. This was according to an open field type of battle but the same goes for the keep assaults. I will give suggestions regarding this in a second.

Another point I would like to cover here. Even though it's been several months into the game already, alot of people still have alot to learn regarding survivability. They refuse to slot some key abilities on their bars. People has been talking about them in this thread. We've been talking about self heals, shield abilities, siege shields, purges, focus fire on the siegers (either with bows, stealth attacks, etc). We've been talking about counter-sieging, about moving out of the red circles. All of those are very valid strategies that I'm pretty sure alot of people who have been frustrated the past couple days over high siege damage refuse to experiment.

I talk regulary with people who still barely use any shield ability. This is unacceptable. Lot and lot of players just refuse to pre-cast one single shield before each engagement. I will tell you something, I have been playing for months pre-casting 3-4shields before every single engagement. I'm sure you can go with one, won't hurt ya.

Last point I want to cover before I reply to one post here.

HEALERS AND SUPPORT CHARATERS. Your role during battle is now more important than it has never been before. During keep assaults, you MUST have a mix of the 4 following abilities on your bar :

- Siege Shield
- Purge
- Breath of Life
- Healing Spring

PEOPLE SIEGING THE KEEP. Your role during battle is to make sure to recast your shield abilities between each shot of your siege weapon. This will greatly help the job of your healers / support players.

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Seriously, and I've said this plenty of times, the only thing you should be mad about is that this damage wasn't implemented until now. It's siege. It's a 5 ton boulder dipped in oil and lit on fire, and it just hit you in the face at high speed. Think about how often in a siege you were able to just run around in the aoe's without a care. We all got used to it, but it ticked a lot of players off. The point of siege was to hit walls and be a minor inconvenience while trying to go through the breach in the wall. Now it's useful, and low and behold, the players are crying.

If you're going to post a screenshot of the damage you received from a ballista bolt, be sure to include your 17k health, 2300 wp/sp damage, your 5k armor, and your stage 4 vampirism, too. Most of the people whining are glass cannons, and have been used to just stacking damage and being able to get away with it. Now players are upset they may have to invest in some fire resist, heavy armor, or even a completely different set of gear, sacrificing some of that precious damage.

I personally love this change. And yes, I've been wrecked multiple times by siege already, smiling as I read my death recap. This is something that should have been in the game for a long time. There are solutions to the problems people are whining about, that they are failing to realize. If you're being sieged, siege back. Don't stand in AoE's. Consider investing in some more stamina to be able to actually roll. wait what? roll? I know. roll dodge, you'll have to work your little bambi legs out some, but you'll learn eventually. I feel that this change is a step in the right direction. This kind of damage will enable smaller groups to capture objectives, while big obvious groups are under siege. Defense is now possible with smaller numbers, and may even allow groups to break off during defense to flag another objective, breaking up the enemy zerg, or forcing them to choose to have to defend or attack. I'm sure this post will come under flak. If you disagree, you are required to state the following motto before proceeding with your reply.

I am a zergling. I have low health, low armor, low survivability. But given that I am a zergling, I need only to spam light attacks while running alongside 30 of my fellow zerglings to get by. I mindlessly follow the AP farmer, annointed by the AP Divines, who was nice enough to recruit me straight from zone chat. I will do whatever he says, for he treats me nicely (as long as I join his ts.) I am weak, but together, all 40 of us are strong. We are the zerg, and I am a zergling.

Well said sir.

Manoekin wrote: »

Anyone saying it will spread the fights out is ***. If a full raid group can't get into a keep because the defensive siege is too strong, are they going to split into two 12 man groups and reduce their chances of success, or are they going to call over more people to help them out? People are just going to rely on zerging more. If you wait for two or three breaches on the keep as well, you're only inviting the opposition to bolster their defense before you can get inside the outer walls, and as far as the inner keeps go you're *** out of luck.

What people have to understand here is that most of the time, when you assault a keep, people assaulting have larger numbers for at least the first 5-10minutes of the engagement unless you are sieging the keep right next in line of the transit. This means that defenders have to obtain a bonus to be able to last long enough until reinforcements arrive.

There are 3things that defenders can use to slow down their opponents :

- Use the guards as a shield
- Use choke points
- Use siege weapons

Prior patch 1.6, siege damage was so ridiculous that no one would use it anymore to counter-siege. Now that it got changed, it helps alot to reduce the pvedooring and actually promote some real fights with real player vs player action.

Now when you mention that a full raid cannot get into a keep because the defensive siege is too strong, that could mean three things.

- You didn't have enough players in a first time to consider engaging that keep
- You didn't have enough sieges to bring the wall down in time before the defenders prepare themselves.
- You didn't try to re-deploy from another direction.

This last point is the one I'm going to pay the most attention because people need to realize it. In most scenarios, when people deploy to siege a wall, they will siege it until it goes down or until they all die from siege damage or by being flanked by infantry stealth groups. It doesn't go further than that and it is really sad.

Let me give you some advices here regarding strategy that you are probably already aware but that you were just too lazy to put into action lately due to the poor siege damage prior patch.

If you get to a keep and before even deploying, you already see defenders on the walls, then maybe you should consider sieging from another angle of the keep.

If you start sieging a keep and the counter-siege gets just too brutal and starts dealing a massive amount of damage to your group, maybe you should packup and re-deploy from another angle of the keep. Accept it, the counter-siegers were more prepared and you got outplayed.

In conclusion, siege weapons are there to bring a major advantage to people using them. If you get caught by it, then you were just not fast enough to engage the enemy and you have two options at your disposal.

1) You gear and spec accordingly to absorb and mitigate the damage
2) You re-engage from another angle

This being said, I don't think it is the time yet to conclude that the damage is too high. I think that we should let it go for a couple weeks still but here is how I think they should change it :

- Overall Siege deployment time should be doubled.
- Overall Siege damage should be reduced by 10%

RinaldoGandolphi

Siege is fine now as is.

This will get skills like Siege Shield to actually be used. Support skills will now actually matter. Not only will you need multiple healers, you will also need multiple siege sheilds to protect your siegers and healers. The days of flapping wings and running right up to the wall and firing a bow are over, you will get bent by artillery fire, and rightfully so.

TBois

sixuponthelot wrote: »

My problem with siege right now is that it is one shotting people. My death recap from a fire ballista was 21k and 8k from the same person (I assume this is the initial hit then dot). I am a vamp so keep that in mind, and before you say well you are a vamp you should know to move, after yesterday I do pay a lot more attention to those red circles on the ground.

Why not lower the initial hit of fire siege and keep the strong dot as a balance? Keep siege use varied, stone trebs for initial hit, fire for dot, meatbags for heal debuff, etc. As of now, we added meatbags to the useless siege category. I mean why use a meatbag for heal debuff when you can probably just one shot people with fire ballista/treb.

Also with siege hitting this hard can we get some green friendly siege circles on the ground?

EDIT: Remember the days of ground oil? That strong dot w/o a large initial hit does a lot.

Asteria2

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

katekatienancy wrote: »

As a friend of mine put it, the game will become "Elder Siege Online."

More like "Michael Bay Online" amirite?

They will probably be nerfed, but I'm having fun with the siege wars. It's a bit crazy, certainly a change of pace.

We shall see I guess. I'm not saying siege didn't need a boost, but to this extreme is a bit crazy... And I wear heavy armor and use lots of damage shields... doesn't seem to make a difference

Tintinabula

no one seems to be listening. As a stamina user who has to use stamina for my skills..if i engage in mellee I open myself up to be one shotted..if i stand in one place for a second to swing at someone I open myself up to be one shotted..if I don't roll TWICE I open myself up to be one shotted.

Seriously..oil was a L2P issue as well rrrright?...rrright..thats why they nerfed it.

PeggymoeXD

Yes it does. Only baddie sitting his whole time in pvp on siege could disagree with that. Play with your fkin character skills, theres plenty of them.
And argument that it help less skilled or not so good geared players is silly. If they get cheap tool to 1 shot ppl, they wont try even improve their gaming skills thanks to that but sit on siege whole day long feeling proud.

Dude. If you think that this will enable "baddies" to be good in PvP, so what? If you're so much better than them, rush them and kill them. The more you complain about the same fact repeatedly, the more you sound like a spud. I personally like the fact that potato allies are beneficial now. Just kill people for fricks sake.

Snit

Tintinabula wrote: »

no one seems to be listening. As a stamina user who has to use stamina for my skills..if i engage in mellee I open myself up to be one shotted...

Your situational awareness will need to improve a bit. Currently, many players chase opponents all the way to the door of their keep. There are plenty of groups that send tanky characters out the postern, specifically to lure people into range of snipers and siege. I see EP do this to AD PUG's constantly on the front porch of BRK. It's farming the overeager.

There's nothing here that a bit of forethought and patience can't fix. Also, dodge-rolls and maybe purge.

Gravord

Snit wrote: »

Your situational awareness will need to improve a bit.

Person sitting on wall spamming 1 shot kills have so awesome awareness, shame he dont have improve anything and can 1 click kill.

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Yes it does. Only baddie sitting his whole time in pvp on siege could disagree with that. Play with your fkin character skills, theres plenty of them.
And argument that it help less skilled or not so good geared players is silly. If they get cheap tool to 1 shot ppl, they wont try even improve their gaming skills thanks to that but sit on siege whole day long feeling proud.

Dude. If you think that this will enable "baddies" to be good in PvP, so what? If you're so much better than them, rush them and kill them. The more you complain about the same fact repeatedly, the more you sound like a spud. I personally like the fact that potato allies are beneficial now. Just kill people for fricks sake.

Dont have a ladder to climb walls. Can be root, snare or otherwised cc-ed in open field while huge range siege is ready to one shot with 0 skills included and totally no effort made.

Snit

Why don't we just give it a week or two? See how it works out?

Like most big changes, we won't know how or whether people will adjust to it until they explode in fiery death a few times. Maybe a few dozen times. This is a good time to keep an open mind about it.

RinaldoGandolphi

Gravord wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Your situational awareness will need to improve a bit.

Person sitting on wall spamming 1 shot kills have so awesome awareness, shame he dont have improve anything and can 1 click kill.

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Yes it does. Only baddie sitting his whole time in pvp on siege could disagree with that. Play with your fkin character skills, theres plenty of them.
And argument that it help less skilled or not so good geared players is silly. If they get cheap tool to 1 shot ppl, they wont try even improve their gaming skills thanks to that but sit on siege whole day long feeling proud.

Dude. If you think that this will enable "baddies" to be good in PvP, so what? If you're so much better than them, rush them and kill them. The more you complain about the same fact repeatedly, the more you sound like a spud. I personally like the fact that potato allies are beneficial now. Just kill people for fricks sake.

Dont have a ladder to climb walls. Can be root, snare or otherwised cc-ed in open field while huge range siege is ready to one shot with 0 skills included and totally no effort made.

Please get off your high horse and calling people baddies. Their is a famous saying: "everytime you point your finger at someone you have 3 more point right back at you"

As for being rooted, snared, etc. Who's fault is that for being in range of artillery fire? That's situational awareness, you should never be in range to get shot to begin with. Siege is slow, cumbersome, and leaves its user vulnerable. Siege is area denial in its finest, you should be standing in its area of red. I can count to 3 before impact, if you can't get out if the way, I dont know what to tell you.

If folks want to dive headfirst into combat with siege around, dont expect to live long. You want a longer life expectancy choose your fights wisely. You can always pop a siege shield and fight under it or slot purge.

The way siege was before it might as well have not been in the game at all, now its right where it should be, tatics have changed, adjust.

Those using op optimized builds will still have a significant advantage. How about stealth flanking the siege operators or counter siege for a change. I saw a significant decrease in lag last night and defending a keep is now actually possible with less numbers to a degree which us far better then it was.

RinaldoGandolphi

Folks will adjust and things will be fine. Were getting a war now which is what is advertised on the box. Game on!

Gravord

woodsro wrote: »

As for being rooted, snared, etc. Who's fault is that for being in range of artillery fire?

Right, cause you can enter pvp and never get under any cc, maybe on wall you sit but not when you walk amongst mortals using their class skills

Phoenix99

The siege changes ARE GREAT. They bring the relevance of siege equipment to what they were during betas and at launch, but are not ridiculous like what ground oil spam was (even though it was super fun )

The changes could use some fine tuning, becasue some siege equipment clearly outshines other, so the system needs some more RPS:

Stone treb - add dmg vs structures, lower dmg vs players and especially NPCs - THIS should be the ultimate structure demolishing tool

Fire treb - i would say add even some more dmg vs players and buff vs siege equipment - It should be the ultimate artillery, it has long reload time, long flight time and high arc, which makes it difficult to aim.

Fire ballista - lower dmg vs players and NPCs, buff up dmg vs siege equipment - this should be a very good anti siege tool, it has a very good rate of fire, so giving it very good impactdmg and DoT is a bit over the top

regular ballista - seems fine where it is - it has good rate of fire and does appropriate dmg per shot

lightning ballista - significantly up dmg vs players, low dmg vs buildings and siege eq - this is now outshined by fire ballista for the role this should be at, i.e. anti blob weapon and anti Player field siege weapon, with DoT

scatter shot cata - add a huge buff to dmg vs players - this should be a very good field antiblob, no DoT dmg weapon it should deliver highest impact dmg of all anti personnel siege weapons as it does not have any DoT

meat cata - this could use some love too i think - maybe the heal debuff and DoT buffs should be higher

oil cata - make sure that the effect can't be purged, but it can be prevented if you are immune to snares while being hit (it should add value of preventive buffs, vs spam of mass purges)

oil pots - seem to be ok

siege rams - their dmg vs doors should be buffed highly, it should be a high risk vs high reward tool, as it is, it is only a high risk tool and you are better of with using regular ballistas vs gates

LameoveR

Sieged complainer:

Sorry, i like to post this pic in all "siege" topics

IcyDeadPeople

LameoveR wrote: »

Sieged complainer:

Sorry, i like to post this pic in all "siege" topics

What exactly are we looking at? Is this the fire ballista bolt with a happy face flying toward his red circle?
.

Cody

You have two options:

Avoid the siege

put points into health

neither of these are particularly difficult. If you are on siege, then wait until the enemies fire, then run in, shoot the siege, then use alt to "quick exit" as I call it, and escape before the next shot hits.

I can get a max of 18K health in cyrodill, with all points into stamina, and all enchants into stamina, with food. Id wager putting just 20 points into health and putting on some health enchants will get you up to the 24-28K range.

I myself prefer to just dodge the siege. Avoid red circles, and if you have to charge a fire balista, DO NOT CHARGE IT BY THE FRONT. CHARGE IT BY ONE OF ITS SIDES WHERE IT CANT SHOOT YOU.

Phoenix99

I like how those people who thought that were good are now weeded out as simple gear and level dependent "average joes" who followed someone elses build and can't adapt to what was the original design idea at launch... oh sweet melody of their cries. cookie cutter followers with no adaptation skills

Tintinabula

who followed someone elses build lol..I'm sure yours is soooo original..please. We have all tried new things we heard about and some kept what worked and some didn't and moved on to something else they heard about. There is NO originality here with the exception of ppl who find sploits.(not accusing anyone of sploiting..just saying..those who find bugs and use them are pretty original in their discovery.They even have followers.)

Phoenix99

Tintinabula wrote: »

who followed someone elses build lol..I'm sure yours is soooo original..please. We have all tried new things we heard about and some kept what worked and some didn't and moved on to something else they heard about. There is NO originality here with the exception of ppl who find sploits.(not accusing anyone of sploiting..just saying..those who find bugs and use them are pretty original in their discovery.They even have followers.)

actually it pretty much is, because it was done with RP background in mind, so it is suboptimal but still good enough to be useful in Cyrodiil

Glurin

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I like how those people who thought that were good are now weeded out as simple gear and level dependent "average joes" who followed someone elses build and can't adapt to what was the original design idea at launch... oh sweet melody of their cries. cookie cutter followers with no adaptation skills

Reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

xDOVAHKIINx

Today I saw groups of 30 use siege on groups of 10 and less. PvP is just pathetic at this point

Huntler

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I like how those people who thought that were good are now weeded out as simple gear and level dependent "average joes" who followed someone elses build and can't adapt to what was the original design idea at launch... oh sweet melody of their cries. cookie cutter followers with no adaptation skills

I like how every super skilled awesome player has come out of the woodwork to say this change is so awesome :eyeroll:. Yes, weeded out by a simple, idiot proof mechanic that is against everything an MMO is supposed to be. Yup. We are the bad players. Just keep telling yourself this game got better, 1.6 changes coupled with this the game totally hasn't gone elder duty online casual style.

xDOVAHKIINx

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I like how those people who thought that were good are now weeded out as simple gear and level dependent "average joes" who followed someone elses build and can't adapt to what was the original design idea at launch... oh sweet melody of their cries. cookie cutter followers with no adaptation skills

I like how every super skilled awesome player has come out of the woodwork to say this change is so awesome :eyeroll:. Yes, weeded out by a simple, idiot proof mechanic that is against everything an MMO is supposed to be. Yup. We are the bad players.

I do not consider myself to be a good player by any means. But when i can one shot whole note worthy enemy raids like Sandman, Havoc, IR, etc you know something is wrong with PvP. Some people say that they love the new siege damage because its finally something we have to counter the zergs. But when you see bigger raids using siege for smaller groups you know its just stupid, and PvP is now SvS.