Oh goodie. Another one of these topics.

To help those who continue to insist with silly ideas like "addons are the equivalent of training wheels," I'll just post my (far more accurate) comparison here:

A more appropriate analogy would be that the stock UI is like cooking with fire. Sure it works -- you can certainly cook your food, and if all you're looking to do is make your food edible, then it serves its purpose just fine.

Using addons to improve the UI and give it features that make life more pleasant, is like using modern appliances such as a stove, oven, microwave, toaster, etc to cook your food and prepare a delicious meal to enjoy, with minimal hassle.

At the end of the day, both the people with and without addons get to eat their cooked food. Addon-users just live in a modern society, instead of grunting over a fire pit like cave-men.

But in the cave-man's defense, if he's never been shown how to properly use a modern stove, he couldn't possibly know how much better it is.

{edited for typos}

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

There seems to be a belief by some that you cannot play to maximum efficiency and competitiveness without add-ons.

Guess what? We don't all seek to achieve maximum efficiency and competitiveness in our computer games - some of us just play for them fun.

Doesn't change the fact that you can't play to maximum efficiency without addons. All you stated is that you play for fun, which is entirely on of course, but for those whose definition of fun entails competitive builds and maximizing potential, addons are a must.

I could not disagree with this more. I believe it's simply not true in the slightest.

Addon's might make some things more obvious and clearer, but saying the absolute of 'can't' without them?, No, that's just narrow-minded in my view. Whether an addon is deemed 'a must' or not is up to the individual using them, not the application it's used for. It's a qualitative thing, not quantitative.

I think you misunderstand me here and my definition of competitive maximizing.

Without addons, you would never know what your DPS is.

Without addons, you would never know if a skill is working as intended.

Without addons, you would never know if certain passives actually work at all or if they need work.

Without addons, game balance would never happen because people wouldn't have decent proof to give to the developers to show that "Hey, this doesn't work, please fix".

I didn't say you need Addons to win the game so to speak, you can run whatever you want and beat it, but you wouldn't know what to use for your build to be it's best if there wasn't some guy sitting down trying to figure out which build was the best and which one worked, etc, so on and so forth.

Tell me I'm wrong here, because I am dying to know how I got this wrong.

And note, I am entirely ok with playing the game for fun, play, please! That's what it's here for. Just know your definition of fun does not line up with others.

Tandor wrote: »

People who aren't interested in min-maxing, achieving "maximum efficiency", and playing everything competitively are capable of thinking for themselves, and for them coming up with their own skill allocations is part of the fun they derive from the game. I for one never use someone else's template because they chances are they don't play the same way as me, nor do I use a skill builder because developing my own skill set as I go along is part of the fun of the game. I don't follow a "build" as such. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

You are not the only one. I am also one of those people.

That said, I still have 24 addons installed. None of them are DPS meters. It's just that there's so much other stuff that addons help with, I wouldn't want to play without them.

Here is the thing...console will be better because everyone is playing the same way.

PC has add-ins, diff keyboards, controllers, binds, etc

Not knocking PC but it seems to work better when everyone is on the same stage. jump in and play the console way.

PC is still cool but a bit expensive due to all the customized preferences and high end hardware.

#1 on my list of "Why has this not been added/fixed" is guild bank item stacking. I cannot imagine managing a 500 slot guild bank's resources daily without addon assistance. (I use Roomba) It's doable but it's a lot of wasted time that can add up quickly.

#2 on my list would be Advanced Filters, which kinda ties in with #1 as far as the "wasted time" thing goes. The "materials" section of the guild bank is an absolute nightmare without Advanced Filters. My personal bank and inventory are only slightly less of a nightmare, only due to limited space.

I can't think of any other "can't play without" addons, but those two are fairly big for me. Inventory management is very important in this game, mostly because it's so easy to fill up your bags in an hour or two. Without the speed of mouse movement it's only going to be more painful on console.

Again, it isn't so much that it's impossible to play without these two addons. It's that I literally have trouble grasping why bank item stacking still works the way it does a year out, and I firmly believe that Advanced Filters (or similar) should be part of the base game.

I won't be playing on console, but I certainly couldn't enjoy the game as much as I do without the addons I use.

Some things that need to be in the console for me to play there:

DPS Meter / Damage indicators
Outfit saver (quickly switch all your gear)
Roomba - restack everything in your guild bank. Or the novel idea of having things automatically stack?

I get they want to make it a Skyrim/Oblivion experience, but im sorry, that doesn't cut it for me in an MMO.

Divinius wrote: »

I'll try to help you...

Yeah, but I think there might actually be another category of players who don't use add-ons. They might actually enjoy the micro-managing aspect of the game without add-ons. To me, this seems like pure lunacy. Maybe they are accountants in real life or something.

danno816_ESO wrote: »

I think anyone who has actually tried Research Assistant or Advance Filters and decided to do without them must be at least mildly masochistic.

It could also be this. Maybe they just like to be spanked.

Tandor wrote: »

There seems to be a belief by some that you cannot play to maximum efficiency and competitiveness without add-ons.

Guess what? We don't all seek to achieve maximum efficiency and competitiveness in our computer games - some of us just play for them fun.

Why would you say something like that? You're basically admitting that you do not perform as well as other players, and have no intention of trying to improve play.

Tandor wrote: »

There seems to be a belief by some that you cannot play to maximum efficiency and competitiveness without add-ons.

Guess what? We don't all seek to achieve maximum efficiency and competitiveness in our computer games - some of us just play for them fun.

Which is very selfish of you. Everyone you're playing with is being held back by your lack of concern for your efficiency. In a single player game it doesn't matter what you do because it only affects you. In an MMO, you have to be considerate of everyone you're playing with and do everything you can to get your group through the dungeon/pvp zone/quest.

Not everyone wants to carry you through the game. That costs other players valuable time.

Divinius wrote: »

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

To those who don't use add-ons:
I am confused.

I'll try to help you.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

Why would you prefer to have to keep track of all your research items with pen and paper?

Do you enjoy having to spend extra time to check your research item notes each time you go to sell your junk?

Because they either don't research anything, don't know that there's an addon that tracks this for you, or know but are either too stubborn or too lazy to actually install and try out the addon to see how it works.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

Is it more fun to have to pull items from your guild bank and manually stack each one together then put them back?

They either aren't in charge of managing a guild bank, don't know that there's an addon that does this, or know but are either too stubborn or too lazy to actually install and try out the addon to see how it works.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

How do you know that you're putting out good dps if you have never even measured it?

They either don't care about their DPS, or... well you get the idea.

Basically, the people that are anti-addon fall into one of 3 groups:

1) People who have honestly never felt inconvenienced by the system enough to care (likely casuals who don't really do very much in the game).

2) People who honestly don't realize that there are addons that do these things.

3) People who have never used an addon (due to either ignorance or stubbornness), and therefore don't actually realize how much better their life can be

All of these people are perfectly free to not use addons, and free to happily enjoy the game as it stands.

The problem comes in when they expect the rest of us to be perfectly happy with a sub-standard system as well.

{edited to fix a broken quote}

Your opinions are all wrong
Let me answer WHY someone like me chooses not to use add-ons.

We actually want to play the game as intended. Looking for something to gain any advantage over other players can be seen as cheating. It's like the people who buy games + those strategy guides.

Some of us are capable of playing this game as intended and so other than issues that can't be fixed with an add-on, it all works just fine.

As far as playing on a console without add-ons....it's refreshing to play on the same experience as others knowing that no one has a better advantage by altering the gameplay experience.

The Way It Was Meant To Be Played

For those who insist on being dogmatic about it, addons have been integral to the Elder Scrolls series since Morrowind, and are a major reason for the breakout success and longevity of Elder Scrolls games ever since.

The designers put a lot of effort into building in support for addons in Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO, so it can just as easily be argued that using addons is the way the game was meant to be played.

And it's utterly irrelevant, because what matters to us as players is whether the game is fun or not.

If you don't use addons and you're happy with the game, great! If you do use addons and you're happy with the game, great! Absent some sort of pathology, there's no need to dump one's emotional baggage on others over something like that, and arguing over it is just plain silly.

As for whether ESO is console-ready without addons, the only people who could possibly know that would be those who are actively working with or have access to the console version. ZOS has taken quite a long time working on it, we can be sure they are testing the hell out of it and making corrections as we speak, and they have every incentive to get things right as best they can before console launch.

I'm sure we'll have a better answer to this question once console launch hits.

Getting back to PC, I gave the game the old Harvard try without addons, but found too many things to be exceedingly tedious without more information or less page-flipping. The game is playable, to be sure, but managing eight characters and all craft professions with the base interface is more hassle than I'm into.

Thus while I could play the game without addons, the truth is that ultimately, I wouldn't. Life's too short.

Your Mileage May Vary, and whatever your opinions about addons may be that don't involve slagging on other players, good for you.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

To those who don't use add-ons:
I am confused.

I'll try to help you.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

Why would you prefer to have to keep track of all your research items with pen and paper?

Do you enjoy having to spend extra time to check your research item notes each time you go to sell your junk?

Because they either don't research anything, don't know that there's an addon that tracks this for you, or know but are either too stubborn or too lazy to actually install and try out the addon to see how it works.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

Is it more fun to have to pull items from your guild bank and manually stack each one together then put them back?

They either aren't in charge of managing a guild bank, don't know that there's an addon that does this, or know but are either too stubborn or too lazy to actually install and try out the addon to see how it works.

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

How do you know that you're putting out good dps if you have never even measured it?

They either don't care about their DPS, or... well you get the idea.

Basically, the people that are anti-addon fall into one of 3 groups:

1) People who have honestly never felt inconvenienced by the system enough to care (likely casuals who don't really do very much in the game).

2) People who honestly don't realize that there are addons that do these things.

3) People who have never used an addon (due to either ignorance or stubbornness), and therefore don't actually realize how much better their life can be

All of these people are perfectly free to not use addons, and free to happily enjoy the game as it stands.

The problem comes in when they expect the rest of us to be perfectly happy with a sub-standard system as well.

{edited to fix a broken quote}

Your opinions are all wrong
Let me answer WHY someone like me chooses not to use add-ons.

We actually want to play the game as intended. Looking for something to gain any advantage over other players can be seen as cheating. It's like the people who buy games + those strategy guides.

Some of us are capable of playing this game as intended and so other than issues that can't be fixed with an add-on, it all works just fine.

As far as playing on a console without add-ons....it's refreshing to play on the same experience as others knowing that no one has a better advantage by altering the gameplay experience.

I don't think my opinions are wrong at all. I'd say, based on your description, that you could fit into both my #1 (you honestly don't feel inconvenienced by the system enough to even try any addons), and #3 (you stubbornly refuse to even try to use any addons, so you don't realize what you are missing).

I can tell by the way you defend yourself. You claim you don't want "advantages over other players", there's a host of addons that just make the mundane game chores, like inventory management, more streamlined, but don't actually do anything that would "give you an advantage" (unless you count only needing to spend 2 minutes at the bank instead of 10 an "advantage over other players")...

This indicates that you aren't very knowledgeable about what types of addons are out there, and have only believed the posts from other anti-addon players that "all addons are just UI hogging monstrosities and tools for cheaters". Since that statement is proveably false, your beliefs are based on misinformation.

I honestly feel kinda sorry for people like you. I wish I could help open your eyes to the wonders that you are missing. But I can only show you the door. You have to be the one to open it.