So I think I came up with a decent magicka AoE build for large group of baddies. Crushing shock for single target at need. Mage light for the crit bonus. Then I use Boundless Storm, Lightning Flood, and Elemental Ring with lightning staff so LOTS of lightning. My gear is all crafted stuff 4 Magus, 4 Song of Lamae so some improvement available there. How I use it goes like this I cast the Boundless Storm, move toward the enemy cast Lightning Flood in middle of them, past through the group, then circle around them with Elemental Ring, renewing Lighting Flood and Boundless Storm at need. I am averaging 4.5 k damage and topping out at 15k+. The 15k I got in Skyreach Catacombs during the chest event on the first floor. I gave the location so that you can test it out yourself. The key to this build and tactic is never stop moving because you really can't see the red on the ground because there is alot of lighting . The downside to the skill set is it ISN'T a boss killer but a trash mob killer. It is also not low end computer friendly because it is ALOT of lighting. Did I mention that already? Try it out and let us know if I'm crazy or if it really works.

Sorcerer are fine imho, I have a vr13 and I am totally satisfied with magicka build I am even looking forward into building a tank variant. I did try stamina build as well before 1.6 and I actually enjoyed it, I bet it is even better now.

Drazhar14 wrote: »

I didn't read through all of this, so I don't know if it has been suggested, but I just came here to say this for Surge.

1) Have it track critical damage done during the cool down period.
2) Apply the single highest value done when the cool down is up.
3) No more low heals from damage over time abilities.
4) Profit!

Or, even easier on a computer (the server) point of view: from the healing amount calculation filter out any DoTs. The cooldown shall enforce an hard cap to the generated HPS anyway.

Pretty much an invalid post right from the start with the OP showing a parse that:

1- has an ultimate, Ice Comet, used with 13 hits - therefore an aoe pull.

2- a short burst fight of less than 1 min

A short burst, many-mobs aoe fight on non-boss targets and an ultimate used is not an indication of sustainable dps.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

As long as you don't mind doing only 2500 DPS (not a typo!), you can use my "Electric Turtle" build that focuses on regen and mitigation to solo pretty much anything in Craglorn, including overland world bosses and delve bosses. Features of the Electric Turtle include:

1) 5 Heavy + 2 Medium armor for max mitigation and a bit of stamina regen.

2) 5 pc. Footman's Fortune and 5 pc. Willow's Path for mitigation and 15% extra regen, respectively.

3) 1H + S are 2 pc. Seducer for the magicka regen. Defensive trait on sword.

4) All jewelry enchanted with gold spell cost reduction glyphs. All armor enchanted with Magicka glyphs with Divine trait.

5) Structured Entropy, Thundering Presence, Lightning Splash, Encase for CC ( I use Shattering morph) and Defensive Posture for the mitigation passive. Use whatever Ultimate you want.

6) Put whatever you want on your off bar: Endless Fury finisher, Resto heals, whatever.

7) Hold down block and use Lightning Splash, whichever morph you prefer, to wear your enemy down over a long period of time. Do a heavy attack whenever you can.

8) Keep Thundering Presence up constantly and spam Entropy whenever you need a healing. Notice in the pic I don't even have any potions, lol.

9) If you're curious about stats, I've been using 31 Magicka + 31 Health mostly, but I recently swithced to 62 Magicka.

10) Atronach Mundus stone is essential for the magicka regen.

11) NO FOOD! I use VR10 purple DRINK for the 3 stat regen.

Three things you WON'T find in this build:

1) Goofy pets.

2) Nerfed Surge heals.

3) Expensive wards.

I made this build as a reaction to all the Sorc nerfs just for fun, but it actually works well, just very SLOWLY, lol.



BTW, I've also been experimenting with Daedric Curse as a damage spell, as "Skarath of the Many" discovered recently:

Ive tried similar build on the pts but there are a couple important issues with HA sorc builds. Lightning splash does very little damage because you will have low spell damage, crit and penetration. Even with a spell damage build Lightning Splash only does about 2,5k dps. This will be even less with HA which means fights will last very long and will be very boring. Also not having a strong ward is a big disadvantage, you have no reliable way to prevent you health from dropping except for blocking.

Personally I think it wont be effective to wear heavy armor and do magic damage, the damage output is simply to low.

Well then, I guess you don't know very much about benchmarks and tests. I don't know what you're trying to get at, but this is how top guilds test and benchmark builds and numbers. Everything needs to be controlled so as to remove any differences that would be added by buffs, resistances, movement etc.

This above test is even a lot more favorable for melee builds as they never have to move like they would in other fights. This, directly inefficient for a Sorc. But you can complain instead if you wish. Just don't come telling a raid leader in a "top guild" about how things are tested or not, I'm well aware.

MADshadowman wrote: »

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are fine, we are still the most powerful class in game.

That is not correct, we are the weakest class in game, we just have awesome players that spent a lot of time learning how to be competitive with a sorc. Don't confuse a good player with a good class.

said every most powerful class ever.

Like I remember when Bright Wizards would say this..

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are fine, we are still the most powerful class in game.

That is not correct, we are the weakest class in game, we just have awesome players that spent a lot of time learning how to be competitive with a sorc. Don't confuse a good player with a good class.

said every most powerful class ever.

Like I remember when Bright Wizards would say this..

This lasted less than one year, then they got nerfed to oblivion. It was even worse for sorcs, because they had almost no CC and all their damage was based on DoTs and Mythic gave cleanses to every other class in game.

For 3/4 of Warhammer life, PvP at all levels was about forming a full melee DPS group, and always a reaver.

I think its clear by now that Sorcerers have good dps.

We need some more stamina morphs for the stamina sorcs... and a change to Thundering Presence to make it stop stealing Surge heals.

Also, some stamina regen from passives... maybe something like "when you use a physical damage ability or light attack you restore x% stamina OR your stamina regen is increased by x% for x seconds"

Just add it on top of another passive like capacitor... or something along those lines.

Bright Wizards were grossly overpowered at launch. Then, of course, came the era of Squig Herder Domination! *






*(not really)

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Whether sorcerers have been needed or are about the same misses the point somewhat. The people posting on this, and other threads, are essentially advocates for sorcerers. The goal of all should be to point out the weak points in the sorcerer class design and to offer suggestions on possible fixes. This means pointing out stamina, tank and healer shortfalls, weak points with regards to a number of abilities and highlighting the issues with, for example, pets.

I would equally expect NB, DK, and Templar advocates to do the same...
And if we had class forums and nominated player class advocates, then these threads could become productive rather than poisonous.

This is what Gil.Galad did - then the thread was hijacked by the 'Sorcs are fine and here's a few seconds of me on my Sorc dpsing a target dummy to prove it' routine by a very small handful of people.

They have successfully and repeatedly steered the conversation away from the holistic whole as you and the OP have laid out and refuse even when asked directly to answer on these issues.

Apparently, saying 'Sorc is fine because I'm a top player in a top guild so you're opinion is irrelevant' is enough proof to make your case for these individuals.

A well rounded evidence based argument eludes them for some reason...

Me... I prefer facts and intelligent analysis, so the OP has my vote, and my personal observations playing my Sorcerer agree with his take on the problems pretty closely.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Whether sorcerers have been needed or are about the same misses the point somewhat. The people posting on this, and other threads, are essentially advocates for sorcerers. The goal of all should be to point out the weak points in the sorcerer class design and to offer suggestions on possible fixes. This means pointing out stamina, tank and healer shortfalls, weak points with regards to a number of abilities and highlighting the issues with, for example, pets.

I would equally expect NB, DK, and Templar advocates to do the same...
And if we had class forums and nominated player class advocates, then these threads could become productive rather than poisonous.

This is what Gil.Galad did - then the thread was hijacked by the 'Sorcs are fine and here's a few seconds of me on my Sorc dpsing a target dummy to prove it' routine by a very small handful of people.

They have successfully and repeatedly steered the conversation away from the holistic whole as you and the OP have laid out and refuse even when asked directly to answer on these issues.

Apparently, saying 'Sorc is fine because I'm a top player in a top guild so you're opinion is irrelevant' is enough proof to make your case for these individuals.

A well rounded evidence based argument eludes them for some reason...

Me... I prefer facts and intelligent analysis, so the OP has my vote, and my personal observations playing my Sorcerer agree with his take on the problems pretty closely.

@byrom101b16_ESO You've gone on and on about Gil.Galad's contributions and I'm sorry, but I've looked at his whole post history, and there is nothing scientific or groundbreaking about any of his posts or topics. Your whole arguments against anyone providing real life parse information (that shoots down your whole Sorc is bad theory) is that Gil.Galad broke down every deficiency of the class and parses do not show these deficiencies.

I can sum up Gil.Galad's contributions to the Sorc discussion for you even....

Sorc has poor group utility and flexibility
-True to an extent. We are poor healers and possibly the worst tank in 1.6 as well. The one thing good ol Gil forgets to mention is that we do our DPS from range which is a big boost in a lot of fights. I fully admit that we bring less in terms of buffs to a raid, but I will say that Negate is still useful although far from mandatory.

He presents a terrible sorc vs temp survivability comparison in spellscar
- This is a ridiculous comparison and means nothing. He is comparing heals per second with surge and fails to realize how powerful and survivable he could be using dmg shields instead. This is just a player failing to realize what the new tool we must use to survive is.

Skill balancing

- He then goes on to make some skill balancing suggestions, all of which are fairly minor and are pretty acceptable IMO. Negate getting the major dmg reduction buff just like VoB and Nova makes sense. His other changes don't really affect much besides his change to Surge healing. The problem with surge healing is dots and small attacks taking up the cooldown, and it should be addressed somehow. His suggestion of 6 target max is acceptable as long as it is within ZOS power to implement this.


And basically that is it. Please enlighten me to what I am missing about either the above information that I paraphrased or some other of Gil.Galad's posts that have this groundbreaking and definitive information that supersedes all real world parses from other players. Also please note that I do not intend to denigrate Gil.Galad's work. He provided good feedback on PTS and his post was thorough. I just don't see why you are building him up to be the voice of reason against actual in game proof.

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Whether sorcerers have been needed or are about the same misses the point somewhat. The people posting on this, and other threads, are essentially advocates for sorcerers. The goal of all should be to point out the weak points in the sorcerer class design and to offer suggestions on possible fixes. This means pointing out stamina, tank and healer shortfalls, weak points with regards to a number of abilities and highlighting the issues with, for example, pets.

I would equally expect NB, DK, and Templar advocates to do the same...
And if we had class forums and nominated player class advocates, then these threads could become productive rather than poisonous.

This is what Gil.Galad did - then the thread was hijacked by the 'Sorcs are fine and here's a few seconds of me on my Sorc dpsing a target dummy to prove it' routine by a very small handful of people.

They have successfully and repeatedly steered the conversation away from the holistic whole as you and the OP have laid out and refuse even when asked directly to answer on these issues.

Apparently, saying 'Sorc is fine because I'm a top player in a top guild so you're opinion is irrelevant' is enough proof to make your case for these individuals.

A well rounded evidence based argument eludes them for some reason...

Me... I prefer facts and intelligent analysis, so the OP has my vote, and my personal observations playing my Sorcerer agree with his take on the problems pretty closely.

@byrom101b16_ESO You've gone on and on about Gil.Galad's contributions and I'm sorry, but I've looked at his whole post history, and there is nothing scientific or groundbreaking about any of his posts or topics. Your whole arguments against anyone providing real life parse information (that shoots down your whole Sorc is bad theory) is that Gil.Galad broke down every deficiency of the class and parses do not show these deficiencies.

I can sum up Gil.Galad's contributions to the Sorc discussion for you even....

Sorc has poor group utility and flexibility
-True to an extent. We are poor healers and possibly the worst tank in 1.6 as well. The one thing good ol Gil forgets to mention is that we do our DPS from range which is a big boost in a lot of fights. I fully admit that we bring less in terms of buffs to a raid, but I will say that Negate is still useful although far from mandatory.

He presents a terrible sorc vs temp survivability comparison in spellscar
- This is a ridiculous comparison and means nothing. He is comparing heals per second with surge and fails to realize how powerful and survivable he could be using dmg shields instead. This is just a player failing to realize what the new tool we must use to survive is.

Skill balancing

- He then goes on to make some skill balancing suggestions, all of which are fairly minor and are pretty acceptable IMO. Negate getting the major dmg reduction buff just like VoB and Nova makes sense. His other changes don't really affect much besides his change to Surge healing. The problem with surge healing is dots and small attacks taking up the cooldown, and it should be addressed somehow. His suggestion of 6 target max is acceptable as long as it is within ZOS power to implement this.


And basically that is it. Please enlighten me to what I am missing about either the above information that I paraphrased or some other of Gil.Galad's posts that have this groundbreaking and definitive information that supersedes all real world parses from other players. Also please note that I do not intend to denigrate Gil.Galad's work. He provided good feedback on PTS and his post was thorough. I just don't see why you are building him up to be the voice of reason against actual in game proof.

What you, PPontus, and the other "sorc DPS is awesome so the class is fine" advocates are missing is that Gil, myself, and many others have been pointing out the sorcerer has many poorly designed and inefficient skills that make them awkward to play and rob the class of the sort of flexibility that others offer.

I don't care what screenshots PPontus posts, the surge skill is probably the most terribly designed skill in the game. If we play like PPontus we have at least 3 minor dots up at all times all but guaranteeing making the heal component of this skill worthless. It is more than 3 times as expensive as entropy, the latter, incidentally, by merely slotting it will increase my health by 8%!!! as well as grant me access to Mage's guild passives, as well as another DoT for Valkyn, etc., etc. Surge is just badly designed because the heal function of the spell is totally unreliable and no screen shot from PPontus will change that.

When I see responses saying just use conjured ward, these completely miss the point. How is it acceptable to have a terribly designed skill just because there is a different skill that performs *part* of the function of said terrible skill. Go ahead and cast conjured ward...but it doesn't give the damage boost of surge It also fails to replace the survivability sustain that heal morph of surge skill is designed to do and did before 1.6.

When I play on my Templar or DK, I have a hard time choosing which skills to put on my bar because those classes have so many good ones. With my sorc, I have not even bothered unlocking like half of them since the update.

• I have never been in a raid or dungeon group where someone said, "I think it would be helpful if I used encase." However useful you might think that skill is, just go ahead and take a glance at Talons from the DK skill line.
• In Cyrodiil, I noticed some people are trying to be cute with the Rune prison morph that paralyzes the attacking. Yes it is cute. So I simply break free and then chase down your bolt escaping build until you are half way across the map or dead. At least DKs who slot petrify - an instant cast that attains the same desired effect - will threaten an opponent more than once with a long duration stun.
• I know some theory-crafters are excited about the possibilities with bound armor because it adds 8% to the sorc's mana pool. First of all, this ignores the whole problem that the ostensible function of this spell, to provide damage mitigation, utterly fails because the amount it offers is a pittance (not to mention that I can slot Thunderous Presence instead that only take up 1 slot and provides a useful DoT as well). Secondly, it is a toggle, which means a sorcerer has to devote two valuable skill slots to maintain it. Thirdly, what exactly are most Sorcerers getting with that? A sorcerer who has 28K magicka, a reasonable amount atm, is getting 2240 bonus magicka - enough to cast, what, one and half spells. Now (assuming 2500 spell damage) your velocious curse does 7279 damage instead of 6990. Whoop-de-do. How about just replacing the skill with something actually useful that is not a toggle?
• The sorcs in my Sanctum raid group are still using spell symmetry instead of Dark Exchange. Why does this skill even exist? You know what sorcerers are in ESO? Mage's Guild dropouts because their versions of Mage's guild spells are strictly worse.
• Players in Cyordiil still run through my mines instead of avoiding them. As I still ignore the enemy mines in DSA, I don't blame them. So another high cost spell, that is cumbersome to use, that fails at it's intended effect, area denial. Unfortunately a common theme with the sorc class line.

And this does not even consider that someone who does not want to play a pet build will have even less slots to consider.

What this means is that many sorcerers in Cyrodiil run the same build! And the only PvE distinction is pet or non-pet. I don't care what DPS screenshots are out there, these numbers do not change the reality that this class has so many poorly designed and inefficient spells. When I play my templar, out of the 15 class skills, I actually want to use 14 of them (healing ritual is really the only loser). My templar build is going to be different than the other templars I run across and fight. But when I run my sorcerer and fight other magicka- sorcs, it is very much a mirror image: we all have a restoration staff and use Conjured Ward, Mage's Fury, Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, Velocious Curse, Bolt Escape, Healing Ward, Harness Magicka. We all use these skills because they are so much better, efficient, and versatile than the many plague our skills lines.

And no DPS screenshot will diversify out builds. In fact, quite the opposite as those sorcs struggling trying to use it's bad skill lines will mirror those builds that pull competitive DPS.