Perma Blocking Problem With Possible Solution

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Holding block forever is one of the mechanics in this game that dumbs down the excellent combat system a notch. Block needs to remain incredibly useful, but should be based more on intuition and reaction rather than just holding down block forever. The way the blocking system is currently designed, it is overpowered in small engagements (1-3 opponents) and balanced for being able to block multiple enemies at a time. Block becomes weak once this threshold is broken and too many people are attacking (for example 5+ enemies).

Suggested Fix: Blocking no longer costs any resources. While holding block stamina does not regenerate. Stamina drains at X% per second while blocking. All block cost reduction passives and enchants now lower stamina drain per second while blocking.

Assuming the X% number is properly calculated and balanced, this system should improve combat tremendously. Block wont be something that is simply held forever, instead it will have to be used proactively, and tanks that wear heavy armor and/or use a shield and/or build/enchant for block drain reduction will still have tremendous tanking ability. This fix also solves the issue of block being too strong against a small numbers of enemies and too weak against a great number of enemies.

Sharee · February 2015

I would prefer to simply treat blocking like sprinting. No abilities should be usable while blocking, except maybe some specialized shield skills (bash etc.)

Trayyacakes · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Holding block forever is one of the mechanics in this game that dumbs down the excellent combat system a notch. Block needs to remain incredibly useful, but should be based more on intuition and reaction rather than just holding down block forever. The way the blocking system is currently designed, it is overpowered in small engagements (1-3 opponents) and balanced for being able to block multiple enemies at a time. Block becomes weak once this threshold is broken and too many people are attacking (for example 5+ enemies).

Suggested Fix: Blocking no longer costs any resources. While holding block stamina does not regenerate. Stamina drains at X% per second while blocking. All block cost reduction passives and enchants now lower stamina drain per second while blocking.

Assuming the X% number is properly calculated and balanced, this system should improve combat tremendously. Block wont be something that is simply held forever, instead it will have to be used proactively, and tanks that wear heavy armor and/or use a shield and/or build/enchant for block drain reduction will still have tremendous tanking ability. This fix also solves the issue of block being too strong against a small numbers of enemies and too weak against a great number of enemies.

Let me get this straight. You want to take a character who is built for blocking (Heavy armor, sword and shield, Champion Points, and possibly Jewelry) make them less effective against 1-4 opponents and godly effective against 5+?

If you do this you understand tanks will be the deciding factor in gvg. The one who can bomb the group and control/annoy the the opposing group better than the other wins, but in open field just roaming if the tank gets jumped by 3 or even 1 opponent he has almost no chance to survive/outlast his aggressor. This would also make 2 things over powered: Master Resto staff and spear shards.

I agree with what you said about the champ system needs to be more front loaded, but not this. This would be awful in AvA. May be great for duels but not AvA.

jelliedsoup · February 2015

Blocking should reduce stamina automatically and cast blocking needs to go.

At least stam builds can now use this 'feature'. It is either poorly designed or considered. The combat i n this game would be way more dynamic if permanent blocking cost something and you can't attack and block at the same time.

Mujuro · February 2015

ZOS also needs to consider the PvE aspects, particularly for end-game content. There are simply too many one-shot kill mechanics that aren't telegraphed well, particularly when dealing with large amounts of damage coming from multiple sources. This is one of the primary reasons for perma-block.

Folkb · February 2015

what if holding block drained stamina like sprint does?

and yes no block casting either.

Holycannoli · February 2015

No block casting by itself would go a long way.

Lied · February 2015

I like this solution.. I also like the idea of making consecutive blocks cost more stamina, where releasing block for 1s or so resets that timer. Current gear/traits could still apply, it would just be another modifier, (kinda like they did with consecutive bolt escape).

Exstazik · February 2015

And if tou are hit by heavy attack while blocking you are set off balance for X sec.

Mariiana · February 2015

Id be fine if people could hold block forever , even leaving stamina regen how it is......but what i utterly hate is block casting..... if it looks like youre not blocking ( like when youre using an ability) , you shouldnt get the effects from blocking, simple as that

Trayyacakes · February 2015

Exstazik wrote: »

And if tou are hit by heavy attack while blocking you are set off balance for X sec.

Would have to be only melee heavy attacks and then you would have to make melee heavies interrupt-able with bash.

Lied · February 2015

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

And if tou are hit by heavy attack while blocking you are set off balance for X sec.

Would have to be only melee heavy attacks and then you would have to make melee heavies interrupt-able with bash.

We heard you liked counters, so we added a counter to counter your counter.

Xeniph · February 2015

You could just have block drop, once it blocks an attack. Making the player re-apply it to gain another block.

That would make it so tedious, it would effectively eliminate perma block.

Or as others have said, remove the ability to cast anything while block is being held.
Though I think they should allow Taunts (only the taunt effect) to be usable while blocking. Preserving tank PVE mechanics.

s7732425ub17_ESO · February 2015

They have already eliminated perma-blocking. Have you not played the PTS and seen how much stamina block costs now?

Shadesofkin · February 2015

Sword and Shield Skills should remain available during block, but otherwise I tend to agree that block casting should go the way of the buffalo. That being said, no other cost change needs to happen.

Lionxoft · February 2015

Dear OP,

Thanks for the laughs today. Not only did you display how much you hate a valid mechanic but the solution you provided was "LOL" worthy. Stop stam regen while blocking? Have you ever tanked before? That one change would completely ruin tanks in the game for both PvE and PvP. Get rid of block casting? Sure, that's a more feasible action however stopping stam regen which is something that tanks invest in heavily is just flat out laughable.

You're mad that you couldn't kill a tank? Good. It means the tank build was hitting it's goal far better than yours could.

Also, I've noticed you seem to make a lot of threads here in the PTS section complaining about tanks doing what they were built to do. Still haven't figured out the solution for that one yet, eh? Glad to keep you on your tippy toes.

jelliedsoup · February 2015

The best solution i can think of would involve zos thinking there was a problem.

ZRage · February 2015

Best solution is to add, blocking cost over-time effect, in short, the more you hold your block or more damage you block, the more it costs stamina or it's simply less effective.

JLB · February 2015

Lionxoft wrote: »

Dear OP,

Thanks for the laughs today. Not only did you display how much you hate a valid mechanic but the solution you provided was "LOL" worthy. Stop stam regen while blocking? Have you ever tanked before? That one change would completely ruin tanks in the game for both PvE and PvP. Get rid of block casting? Sure, that's a more feasible action however stopping stam regen which is something that tanks invest in heavily is just flat out laughable.

You're mad that you couldn't kill a tank? Good. It means the tank build was hitting it's goal far better than yours could.

Also, I've noticed you seem to make a lot of threads here in the PTS section complaining about tanks doing what they were built to do. Still haven't figured out the solution for that one yet, eh? Glad to keep you on your tippy toes.

^this.
You can't get rid of block casting because the game is designed so tanks hold block all the time. Plus, the major problems on PvP with blocking HAVE BEEN FIXED IN 1.6. You no longer can run a light armor tank build and block forever while hitting like a truck.
OP, do yourself a favor, stop these posts about things you have no clue, do some endgame PvE content as a tank and then come up with suggestions.
You don't have enough knowledge or experience in the game to have a valid criteria, the only criteria you have is your own build in PvP (which, by the way, seems to be pretty bad).
You lack experience, and that's why your posts are always so embarrassing.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

JLB wrote: »

^this.
You can't get rid of block casting because the game is designed so tanks hold block all the time. Plus, the major problems on PvP with blocking HAVE BEEN FIXED IN 1.6. You no longer can run a light armor tank build and block forever while hitting like a truck.
OP, do yourself a favor, stop these posts about things you have no clue, do some endgame PvE content as a tank and then come up with suggestions.
You don't have enough knowledge or experience in the game to have a valid criteria, the only criteria you have is your own build in PvP (which, by the way, seems to be pretty bad).
You lack experience, and that's why your posts are always so embarrassing.

Sorry, I don't care what the previous person you are quoting writes and certainly I don't care what else you write below the marked phrase but this over here is straight wrong and even acknowledged by ZoS. So it will get fixed one way or another.

The end.

paulsimonps · February 2015

I just want to add something weird i found when i two manned DSA yesterday on 1.6.2 my blocking in large groups cost nothing. It didnt do that all the time but it might be why some people can perma block as good as they did. I tested it straight after and could not reproduce it outside of dsa but even against 5 enemies with full cp and 3 block cost reduction i could block indefinently. All i had to do was a green dragon blood when i hit 10% hp and boom up to like 60%, could do it forever.had i not been able to block while casting the dragon blood though it would have made me vunerable, and with that low % i would have did, so perma block would not have mattered. So i say no block cast andfix the weir noblock cost bug and see how that works out.

aco5712 · February 2015

Sabre, i know you play the PTS. How have you not seen that blocking is something that is very hard to do unless you specifically spec into that. I sacrifice 3 jewelry enchants, skill slot (defensive posture), CP and i wear 5 heavy. I can block effectively against 3/4 people but i have no damage. Blocking against 5+ is wear you notice your stam drain alot.

If you spec to tank, you spec to do no damage. Blocking is definetly not overpowered and its really good in 1.6 with all the changes.

If i wanna hold block forever, its because i wanna take as less damage as possible coz im a tank. If you were a tank in real life, would you wanna be running around and only blocking sometimes when you have 20 people beating on you or do you wanna perma block and take the least amount of damage.

ZRage · February 2015

^In real life tanks don't jump into 20 another tanks and "block" damage forever, because in reality 1 rocket/missile can fu*k you up.

And please don't even say you do no damage, because the fact currently perma blocking builds deal way more damage to enemies than enemies do to them.

technohic · February 2015

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

And if tou are hit by heavy attack while blocking you are set off balance for X sec.

Would have to be only melee heavy attacks and then you would have to make melee heavies interrupt-able with bash.

Yeah, that would make heavy attacks just great for countering perma block. I mean, with them already holding the right mouse button, it would be so much work to just hit the left mouse button and interrupt the heavy attack. That would make a HUGE difference. I am super serious. Seriously.

Leonis · February 2015

Another suggestion :

Each attack lower the mitigation earned by blocking or increase the cost of blocking, if you hold it.

Too much attacks (for exemple 5) break it.

The consequences of these attacks can be reset by lowering your shield a few seconds.

Trayyacakes · February 2015

technohic wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

And if tou are hit by heavy attack while blocking you are set off balance for X sec.

Would have to be only melee heavy attacks and then you would have to make melee heavies interrupt-able with bash.

Yeah, that would make heavy attacks just great for countering perma block. I mean, with them already holding the right mouse button, it would be so much work to just hit the left mouse button and interrupt the heavy attack. That would make a HUGE difference. I am super serious. Seriously.

If you are talking about 1v1 then yes it would be easy to bash a heavy. This game isn't about 1v1. There is CC that goes through block right now too. One of the biggest problems on the pts unchained. When you CC someone it does them a favor. In order to block cast on the pts you have to build for it. Heavy armor ,sword and shield, Champion Points, and Defensive Posture(until you get enough champion points to leave this off the bar) By going 5 heavy you are giving up a ton of resource management and damage. If you want to be an effective AvA tank you will also need a decent health pool because if you are leading the charge laying down roots and running interference one cc could be the end of you. Super tank builds are giving up a lot to be what they are, and they gain survivability. I hope they don't get rid of block casting it will be and is necessary for AvA tanks. I think the way to go is to reduce damage of abilities used while block is held.

Orchish · February 2015

Having stamina drain automatically while holding block will screw over heavy users even more. Resource management is already terrible for heavy, the solution of having stamina drain would force the rest of us back to light armour shield stacking. Your solutions look at light/medium, but just like ZoS does you completely ignore the effect this would have on any tank using heavy armour in PvP and even PvE would suffer with such a change.

Digiman · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

I would prefer to simply treat blocking like sprinting. No abilities should be usable while blocking, except maybe some specialized shield skills (bash etc.)

That or using any abilities while block is up triggers a bash, just like with light attack.

madangrypally · February 2015

Blocking was never meant to be used to block all incoming attacks. It was meant to be used mainly to block hard hitting attacks.

The solution I like best is to give a very short duration debuff when block is used. IE: Major Disempower: Decreases damage of next attack by 20% after blocking an attack.

This will make block casting not happen. Block will then be used for what it was intended for which was block hard hitting abilities and not every ability.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Orchish wrote: »

Having stamina drain automatically while holding block will screw over heavy users even more. Resource management is already terrible for heavy, the solution of having stamina drain would force the rest of us back to light armour shield stacking. Your solutions look at light/medium, but just like ZoS does you completely ignore the effect this would have on any tank using heavy armour in PvP and even PvE would suffer with such a change.

You could let go of block, and the stamina drain would stop... Also heavy armor and shield would obviously drain stamina much, much slower than specs not designed to block.

The whole point here is you shouldnt be able to hold block forever.

cracker81 · February 2015

So, ppl are QQ about a tank, tanking them? Ok..... I really have to hand out some LoLs.. Here you go and oh I wont forget you. Here you go.
Tip: you can ignore a tank, because they do very low amount of damage. You can have a lot of ppl kill him/her. To do it with just a few it would just be good to move a long