Please delay CP conversions till after VR is removed.

Faugaun · January 2015

seanvwolf wrote: »

Just the ones who feel that everyone else shouldn't take advantage of a dual system that will be in place for everyone intended to provide a replacement for, not a supplement to, the current progression, especially before it's even become available to test and see how both systems stacked will truly affect population progression and power.

I think we are still failing to communicate, I am not saying players shouldn't get CP, I am not saying players shouldn't be allowed to earn CP and use it immediately during the time when both systems overlap.

Yes it is a replacement for the old VR system and not a supplement, this is why (during the test phase when both systems are active) it is important to allow all people equal opportunity (what they choose to do with that opportunity is up to them).

Let me ask you a simple question. Which is more powerful a VR14 as they are today or the same VR14 with 70 CP placed into passives?

Obviously the VR14 with the 70CP.

Now a VR1 receives 0 CP so that account is exactly the same before and after.

What occurs here is the VR14 gets buffed and the VR1 gets nothing. But what is the VR14 getting buffed for? (My opinion, since Zos has not specified explicitly, your's may differ) Because VR14 have done questing etc and completed content and devoted time under the new system and once CS is in full effect they MAY (providing they leveled using quests) be at a slight disadvantage for obtaining future CP. Obviously that is not right if they are disadvantaged for their effort (I agree completely, which is why I support that higher VR should get more CP). If you differ on the reason for compensation please explain further such that I can better understand your perspective (I am interested, but I don't think the reasononing for this matters for the thread debate).

What I am saying is that while VR and CS systems are both active the VR14 and the VR1 (and everything in between ) have exactly what they had before 1.6 and in addition they has the CS system. Restating: Exactly what you had before + CS system.... At this point no one has lost gained anything at all whatsoever.

Now recall the CP given to VR1.2 to VR14? All those players (more specifically the higher end) still have everything they had before and now gain an additional quantity of CP (for previous effort, except they haven't lost their previous effort for as long as the VR systems remains active). This has the indirect effect of moving the top further to the top and moving the bottom further to the bottom simultaneously...and for an individual at the top it is kinda cool to get free buff (sweet right? I think so). However, the effects on the community as a whole (and more specifically the bottom portion) are negative. This provides a disincentive to the lower players.

OK, not only does it disincentivize the lower players it also makes the higher players more likely to do vet level dungeon with those at the top, and makes it more difficult for the bottom to get there....this mean why the top are doing their 20 min daily runs and improving their gear progression at a decent rate the lower people have even less opportunity than before to get involved in that content, resulting in a less satisfactory experience. Meanwhile the top level players continue doing the repetitive end-game grind and eventually might get bored and leave. This could potentially (not defiantly, as often one thing doesn't cause a sub loss, but the longterm effect could be sub loss at the bottom and top half of the ladder). In the end if this occurred then then top has fewer people to play with, and fewer people replacing those that left.

Instead allowing both the VR14 and VR1 to progress equally (initially) while both VR and CS systems are active creates a fair playing field where VR14 still maintain their lead and are able to increase through the CS system (same as VR1 and everyone in between). Then when (supposedly at 1.7) VR system is removed and the VR gear is scaled down compensate the players (with the conversion calculated at CS launch, not VR removal) with their CP that they rightfully deserve (this compensates for what is actually lost at this point and maintains the same power differential, assuming the conversion is fair....which Zos may be able to more accurately determine a better fair compensation then and modify the awarded cp to be more inline with what was actually lost).

Faugaun · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

What I want more than anything is a fair implementation which is not biased. I would be interested in @Valencer‌ 's suggested approach to fix the problem. I'm not saying my solution is perfect only that it is the best solution I have seen.

I'd go for some kind of compromise between the original flat rate and the 70CP-cap they are planning now. Give people (maybe all VR1+ people) some CP (not necessarily as many as 30) in update 6, so they can test and play around with the Champion System. Then give the veterans their VR-to-CP conversion when the ranks are removed.

It would make sense and wouldn't really disadvantage anyone.

This is a fine solution IMO. Provided Zos needs people with xyz CP to adequately test. Another idea might be to give that initial quantity (call it 20) to anyone who has defeated molag bal. Then in the future the first time an account (not a character but the account) defeats Molag Bal then they get that 20 as well as a one time (per account benefit) to allow the player to immediately jump into the CS system upon reaching level 50 the first time. My only hesitation with this is that I don't want to see the 20 CP now for everyone then result in a reduction of what VR receive later (they did the work under pretense created by Zos and deserve the reward).

So if everyone getting 20 now = everyone gets 20 less later then I completely oppose that solution.

Now if Zos moves the 70 CP number up or down because they determine that the value of CP is different than they predicted... That's a fine reason to adjust the number.

Stonesthrow · January 2015

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Why can't I dye my horse yet?

That's it, I quit.

No seriously, I think Stones is on to something...

Anyone who has 8... no, no, 9! Anyone with 9 VR-14s should get to dye there horse any color they want!

No wait, not just any color... a special color you can only get when you cap out your 9th... Yeah!

Just us 9 VRs man... rolling with my VRoomies... boom shalack... boom shalack... rolling with my VRoomies...

shanersimms_ESO · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

I would first like to say that while in the previous plan I would have received 30 cp and now I will receive 0 cp the newest CP conversions method by Zos seems to be more fair.

I am however concerned about the double bonus (temporarily) to VR 14 players (or any in the top bracket).

Please keep in mind this is from the view of a VR1 who has subbed since the beginning.

Under the VR system players with higher ranks are allowed much stronger gear compared to those at VR1. This by itself is fine, they progressed their gear and it is rightfully earned and I will suck it up, put on my big boy pants and cope.

Under the CS system the early points are much more valuable than the later points from the models I have read (example: 1.0%, 0.9%, 0.8%...) Due to diminishing returns. This is actually kinda cool as it longterm aims to balance the playing field (mostly). Further the account wide method is really cool and I love it (providing the skills themselves are likable, I am banking they will be).

All of the above is great and wonderful, my concern is just that overlapping the retro compensation with the VR system is way OP.

If I am a VR14, here is how I play this, I put each skill point in separate areas with desirable skills, netting as many 1.0% bonuses as possible which are then stacked on top of my VR14 gear (which is significantly stronger than VR1 gear).

OK so its becoming apparent that the strong get stronger and the weak cannot compete. Let me take it one step further.

Let's suppose the VR1 and VR14 grind exp at the exact same rate and the VR14 is 'forced' to place the next 70 cp into 0.9% increases while the VR1 gets the spiffy 1.0% increases.....you would think that the VR1 would be gaining ground, but this may not be the case since the 0.9% bonus on VR14 gear and with all the extra skill points they have likely acquired is actually much more beneficial than the 1.0% increase is for the VR1. (I admit eventually that same VR1 will level and be able to use VR14 gear....maybe, but in the in between time the VR14 becomes much more powerful (which has the effect of making it much more difficult for the VR1 to gain exp in PvP, and subsequently allows the VR14 to gain exp and thus CP much more rapidly than the VR1).

It is under this logic that I would like to see the CP points awarded for VR ranks (experience) only be awarded once the VR system is completely removed (very 1.7?).

I hope the community agree or at least gives constructive criticism of my views but I half expect to be flamed by VR14's for this suggestion.

Cheers,
A concerned VR1

P.S. Zos I know you guys listen it is evident in all your actions. Please consider this and make the best decision for the game.

I believe the OP has a legitimate concern. There is a very simple fix:

Upon release of the CS, go ahead and normalize all gear VR1+ to a single level 50 equivalent standard. Obviously those of use who have VR14 gear compared to the fresh VR1s would be getting the raw deal, so to compensate you should grant a set number (maybe 5?) CS points per veteran rank the player has achieved upon the release of the CS. (i.e. VR1 gets 5 CS points, VR6 gets 30, VR10 gets 50, VR14 gets 70, etc.)

Even as a player who is sitting close to 13k achieve pts, has played since beta, and has a great number of complete V14 gear sets, I believe this is a fair method upon release of the CS. This method would also foster the normalization process that will eventually have to occur to remove Vet ranks altogether.

Faugaun · January 2015

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I would first like to say that while in the previous plan I would have received 30 cp and now I will receive 0 cp the newest CP conversions method by Zos seems to be more fair.

I am however concerned about the double bonus (temporarily) to VR 14 players (or any in the top bracket).

Please keep in mind this is from the view of a VR1 who has subbed since the beginning.

Under the VR system players with higher ranks are allowed much stronger gear compared to those at VR1. This by itself is fine, they progressed their gear and it is rightfully earned and I will suck it up, put on my big boy pants and cope.

Under the CS system the early points are much more valuable than the later points from the models I have read (example: 1.0%, 0.9%, 0.8%...) Due to diminishing returns. This is actually kinda cool as it longterm aims to balance the playing field (mostly). Further the account wide method is really cool and I love it (providing the skills themselves are likable, I am banking they will be).

All of the above is great and wonderful, my concern is just that overlapping the retro compensation with the VR system is way OP.

If I am a VR14, here is how I play this, I put each skill point in separate areas with desirable skills, netting as many 1.0% bonuses as possible which are then stacked on top of my VR14 gear (which is significantly stronger than VR1 gear).

OK so its becoming apparent that the strong get stronger and the weak cannot compete. Let me take it one step further.

Let's suppose the VR1 and VR14 grind exp at the exact same rate and the VR14 is 'forced' to place the next 70 cp into 0.9% increases while the VR1 gets the spiffy 1.0% increases.....you would think that the VR1 would be gaining ground, but this may not be the case since the 0.9% bonus on VR14 gear and with all the extra skill points they have likely acquired is actually much more beneficial than the 1.0% increase is for the VR1. (I admit eventually that same VR1 will level and be able to use VR14 gear....maybe, but in the in between time the VR14 becomes much more powerful (which has the effect of making it much more difficult for the VR1 to gain exp in PvP, and subsequently allows the VR14 to gain exp and thus CP much more rapidly than the VR1).

It is under this logic that I would like to see the CP points awarded for VR ranks (experience) only be awarded once the VR system is completely removed (very 1.7?).

I hope the community agree or at least gives constructive criticism of my views but I half expect to be flamed by VR14's for this suggestion.

Cheers,
A concerned VR1

P.S. Zos I know you guys listen it is evident in all your actions. Please consider this and make the best decision for the game.

I believe the OP has a legitimate concern. There is a very simple fix:

Upon release of the CS, go ahead and normalize all gear VR1+ to a single level 50 equivalent standard. Obviously those of use who have VR14 gear compared to the fresh VR1s would be getting the raw deal, so to compensate you should grant a set number (maybe 5?) CS points per veteran rank the player has achieved upon the release of the CS. (i.e. VR1 gets 5 CS points, VR6 gets 30, VR10 gets 50, VR14 gets 70, etc.)

Even as a player who is sitting close to 13k achieve pts, has played since beta, and has a great number of complete V14 gear sets, I believe this is a fair method upon release of the CS. This method would also foster the normalization process that will eventually have to occur to remove Vet ranks altogether.

This is another good alternate solution IMO (though I would also suggest either removing the 13 skill points also or giving the 13 to everyone else....to normalize this also).

@Valencer‌ your idea spawned another alternate solution I'd love your thoughts, and anyone else's.

What if Zos calculated according to the published formula so vr1 = 0 VR2= 5 ...VR14 = 65 and VR14 +1 mil exp =70) then at 1.6 release they give everyone 70CP....this allows good testing without pumping extra CP into the system. Then when VR is removed the difference between your conversion value and the test quantity is removed. So a VR14 + 1 mil (at the time 1.6 went live not when VR is removed) would lose 0 CP, a VR14 would lose 5...a VR2 would lose 65 and a VR1 would lose 70....simultaneously the VR gear would all be converted down and a free CP reset given.

Bulldog1205 · January 2015

I agree with the OP. I don't think it makes sense to gives higher level veterans something extra. Once they decide to take something away (VR ranks, downgrading armor if that happens, etc) then it makes sense to compensate that with something extra, such as extra CPs. But right now I liked the old way much better. FWIW I'm a VR10.

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

I believe the OP has a legitimate concern. There is a very simple fix:

Upon release of the CS, go ahead and normalize all gear VR1+ to a single level 50 equivalent standard. Obviously those of use who have VR14 gear compared to the fresh VR1s would be getting the raw deal, so to compensate you should grant a set number (maybe 5?) CS points per veteran rank the player has achieved upon the release of the CS. (i.e. VR1 gets 5 CS points, VR6 gets 30, VR10 gets 50, VR14 gets 70, etc.)

Even as a player who is sitting close to 13k achieve pts, has played since beta, and has a great number of complete V14 gear sets, I believe this is a fair method upon release of the CS. This method would also foster the normalization process that will eventually have to occur to remove Vet ranks altogether.

I don't think that is such a simple fix.

What happens to crafting when all gear is normalized to VR1+ (and also presumably potions, food, enchantments, etc.)? What happens to all the materials that are linked to VR levels and consequently to VR zones?

These considerations will form a large part of 1.7. ZOS have said they haven't fully figured out how to do all this for 1.7, let alone bringing some of it forward to 1.6.

Though one thing we do know... 1.6 will introduce VR10 foods, reinforcing the link between food and VR levels instead of removing it!

Faugaun · January 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

I believe the OP has a legitimate concern. There is a very simple fix:

Upon release of the CS, go ahead and normalize all gear VR1+ to a single level 50 equivalent standard. Obviously those of use who have VR14 gear compared to the fresh VR1s would be getting the raw deal, so to compensate you should grant a set number (maybe 5?) CS points per veteran rank the player has achieved upon the release of the CS. (i.e. VR1 gets 5 CS points, VR6 gets 30, VR10 gets 50, VR14 gets 70, etc.)

Even as a player who is sitting close to 13k achieve pts, has played since beta, and has a great number of complete V14 gear sets, I believe this is a fair method upon release of the CS. This method would also foster the normalization process that will eventually have to occur to remove Vet ranks altogether.

I don't think that is such a simple fix.

What happens to crafting when all gear is normalized to VR1+ (and also presumably potions, food, enchantments, etc.)? What happens to all the materials that are linked to VR levels and consequently to VR zones?

These considerations will form a large part of 1.7. ZOS have said they haven't fully figured out how to do all this for 1.7, let alone bringing some of it forward to 1.6.

Though one thing we do know... 1.6 will introduce VR10 foods, reinforcing the link between food and VR levels instead of removing it!

These are valid points, I forgot about these potential complications...so scaling gear at 1.6 seems off the table? IDK maybe they could convert all the higher level mats to the VR1 version...but they would be super prevalent at that point...more so then they already are....on the flip side Zos has indicated that they plan to remove the higher rank crafting stuff eventually....so it is still something that needs to occur in one fashion or another....I think reinforcing VR10 foods is a bad idea with the previously stated goals.

So perhaps back to some sort of CP timing change is best still? Though which route is best still does not seem clear.

Slurg · January 2015

Actually ZOS said this morning in the dev discussion for champion system that they have not yet said that vet levels are definitely going away in 1.7. So it's probably best not to make any assumptions based on vet levels going away in 1.7.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Just to be sure I understand, when the Champion System is fully implemented in 1.7, the max level will be 50 instead of V14, correct? And beyond that all you earn is Champion points.

Yep.

To be clear, we have never confirmed any features that will be in Update 7. When we have details about Update 7 or any further plans with the Champion System, we'll let you all know!

Faugaun · January 2015

Slurg wrote: »

Actually ZOS said this morning in the dev discussion for champion system that they have not yet said that vet levels are definitely going away in 1.7. So it's probably best not to make any assumptions based on vet levels going away in 1.7.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Just to be sure I understand, when the Champion System is fully implemented in 1.7, the max level will be 50 instead of V14, correct? And beyond that all you earn is Champion points.

Yep.

To be clear, we have never confirmed any features that will be in Update 7. When we have details about Update 7 or any further plans with the Champion System, we'll let you all know!

Thanks for that!

This reinforces the stance that CP should not be provided until the loss actually ocxurs. Perhaps leaning more towards the -some test CP now and the compensation CP when VR are removed- model or the -70 CP now and remove the bonus you didn't get later- model (i am not a fan of the take CP away later model....just because that will certainly lead to upset trolls...but adding test and compensation CP to the pool is also bad....Zos, you guys have many tough decisions daily don't you? ...this is just one issue of the game, can't imagine all systems debates combined....well maybe I can it might look like these forums, lol)....

OK so overall my current stance is probably something to the effect of compensate VR if/when VR is removed at an appropriate level compared to what they are losing...and if test CP need to be given out then give them out (though it might be equally fine to let people earn the initial ones like normal, this also starts everyone out fairly similar for stess tests and examination of any blatant imbalances to be screened.

Today has been great! Please keep the ideas and feedback flowing!!!

Slurg · January 2015

Actually as I said before no one's head should be exploding over this when there are so many things still up in the air that we don't know about yet. Key decisions have not even been made! It's only 70 points out of how many thousand? We'll see soon enough on PTS how much or how little 70 points really matters once we can test how new points are earned.

Edit: for the record, it is highly doubtful I'll be one of the people getting 70 points, unless they push release back to this summer or change the rules again.

seanvwolf · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Now a VR1 receives 0 CP so that account is exactly the same before and after.

What occurs here is the VR14 gets buffed and the VR1 gets nothing.

Ofcourse we are having a communication problem. You aren't listening to what we are saying.

Your earlier statement is patently false. VR1's with atleast 200,000 xp will get 1 CP.
VR1's with atleast 800,000xp will get 4 CP.

VR2's with 800k will get 9 CP.

You know how long it takes a player to get 200,000 xp on average?

About an hour if you are questing and exploring areas for the first time while you are ridding areas of monsters and mobs.

If you spent the time leveling instead of advocating your problematic "solution", this wouldn't even be a concern.

Even if both systems stacked will create "double power" that you are assuming will happen, you will still have something to complain about or to take advantage of, as you would always be able to take advantage of that "double power" or be disadvantaged by players of the game who level more than you.

This has been pointed out countless times in this thread, but you don't seem to understand what it means.

I'll do an analogy for you if you like. (Prefacing it so you can understand it's not anyone asking for this).

If the effect of stacking VR and CS together produces "double power" as you are assuming, then it would be no different, in essence, than ZOS saying:

"We are going to increase the gains of all VR levels by 100% as well as pushing the level cap from VR14 to VR 700, starting with 1.6 launch. We are doing this because we've found that, based on player feedback, 1 million points is too great an effort by some to gain a veteran rank as well as complaints about Glyph enchants being Overpowered hence we are also going to be removing Enchanting and all related content so that your Veteran Rank is more noticeable during gameplay. This means that all veteran players will retroactively have 2 stat points, 2 skill points, gains in weapon power caps and resistance caps as well for each Veteran rank previously obtained. Every following VR obtained will also gain 2 stat points, 2 skill points, and the additional gains in caps. We will be phasing out Glyphs in update 1.7 at a date to be determined and will at that time be providing a way to compensate you through gold in game. You can then turn in your remaining runestones and glyphs at a special vendor in each zone who will give you more gold in return for these items instead of selling to a standard merchant."

And then your response would be little different than saying:

"I think all those who are already higher level VR's should not have access to those (initial 13+) extra points and cap increases until you get rid of Enchantments. But let us who haven't gained the VR ranks have access to the extra stats in the meantime while still using Glyphs. Thank you very much."

Robocles · January 2015

While I can understand the concern here, the reason they are awarding the points at the initiation of phase 3 is that people who have completed significant portions (or all) of the current quest content have very little way to generate CPs without grinding. Thus, giving them some kind of initial bump lets them take some advantage of the system.

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate. And, of course, as they level, they have access to the same gear as the higher level VRs as they progress, so, in the end, they have more points and the same gear once they get to that point.

Joejudas · January 2015

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

The_Great_Maldini · January 2015

Test the system before you start worrying about it. Save your fears of inequality until after seeing how things stand on the PTS.

Valencer · January 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

Stay classy.

Faugaun · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

While I can understand the concern here, the reason they are awarding the points at the initiation of phase 3 is that people who have completed significant portions (or all) of the current quest content have very little way to generate CPs without grinding. Thus, giving them some kind of initial bump lets them take some advantage of the system.

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate. And, of course, as they level, they have access to the same gear as the higher level VRs as they progress, so, in the end, they have more points and the same gear once they get to that point.

Thanks @Robocles‌ for a logical respone I counter that the improved gear, extra cp and all the other benefits they have received from completing silver and gold would allow them adequate advantage to 'farm CP' at a faster rate than the VR1. Not to mention the extra experience, the time saved from not having to look through loot near as aggressively (because you already have top gear) the lack of need to deconstruct to get mats (same reason) or level your crafting skills. Finally the lack of need to do the bank shuffle, because very little stuff will be saved for later to upgrade you...all of these result in greater time doing things that create CP compared to someone lower. Yes they should get compensated for the silver and gold quests.....but only when they lose the benefits that those quests gave them (ie.. If/when VR system is removed).

Joejudas wrote: »

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

@Joejudas‌ This is not about how much Zos does or does not give this is about WHEN they give.

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Test the system before you start worrying about it. Save your fears of inequality until after seeing how things stand on the PTS.

@The_Great_Maldini‌ If this were about how much then you would be absolutely correct....but it is about when...its easy to see that if the highest level gets points for passives that increase their power and people lower than them do not then there is less balance than before.

A fair system that keeps everyone in there spot without magically pushing people further ahead or further behind is what I am advocating. If the behind people choose to not catch up then that is on them.

The_Great_Maldini · January 2015

You cannot make any assessment of the system until you have tested the system. That is a basic fact. You have no way of knowing how powerful or not the buffs will be and the resulting inequality because no one external to ZOS has seen it.

I do not see the merits in continuing this thread discussion as it is simply troll bait and premature.

Lied · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate.

Side-note, just out of curiosity why will questing (silver/gold) yield a better CP rate than say just grinding? Would it have something to do with enlightenment?

I was under the impression that the people complaining about being VR14 without silver/gold to do when the CP system came out would just prefer questing to grinding. No argument here either way, just wondering.

Robocles · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

While I can understand the concern here, the reason they are awarding the points at the initiation of phase 3 is that people who have completed significant portions (or all) of the current quest content have very little way to generate CPs without grinding. Thus, giving them some kind of initial bump lets them take some advantage of the system.

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate. And, of course, as they level, they have access to the same gear as the higher level VRs as they progress, so, in the end, they have more points and the same gear once they get to that point.

Thanks @Robocles‌ for a logical respone I counter that the improved gear, extra cp and all the other benefits they have received from completing silver and gold would allow them adequate advantage to 'farm CP' at a faster rate than the VR1. Not to mention the extra experience, the time saved from not having to look through loot near as aggressively (because you already have top gear) the lack of need to deconstruct to get mats (same reason) or level your crafting skills. Finally the lack of need to do the bank shuffle, because very little stuff will be saved for later to upgrade you...all of these result in greater time doing things that create CP compared to someone lower. Yes they should get compensated for the silver and gold quests.....but only when they lose the benefits that those quests gave them (ie.. If/when VR system is removed).

Joejudas wrote: »

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

@Joejudas‌ This is not about how much Zos does or does not give this is about WHEN they give.

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Test the system before you start worrying about it. Save your fears of inequality until after seeing how things stand on the PTS.

@The_Great_Maldini‌ If this were about how much then you would be absolutely correct....but it is about when...its easy to see that if the highest level gets points for passives that increase their power and people lower than them do not then there is less balance than before.

A fair system that keeps everyone in there spot without magically pushing people further ahead or further behind is what I am advocating. If the behind people choose to not catch up then that is on them.

First, I get what you are saying, to an extent. The issue is we will have months of time where that capped (or close to capped) character will be required to grind or play another toon to get the same benefit a lower VR char will get. I really don't think that is appropriate.

The issue they have is that they are delaying the removal of the VR ranks (probably for valid reasons... since that will require normalization of all the veteran content) for a significant time after they allow us to use the CS points.

In the end, I doubt 70 points will be game breaking. All VR characters will get the same 1 point per 200k of xp at the time of conversion. Like I said, lower level VRs will be able to earn CP faster (per point of xp) than the people who already have those xp earned when 1.6 drops. And, for the transition, the lower level ones will also get to progress through the VR ranks and get stronger armor and weapons.

I think it's a decent compromise... would I like to get converted at the rate that newer people do.... of course. But, I get the idea that they don't want to create a giant gap from the word go.

I don't think giving people some kind of conversion when the system launches really pushes anyone any further along. It's just giving them credit for content they have already done, and can't do again. The disparity between VR1 and VR14 will still be significant, and, will likely never be bridged assuming equal time invested.

seanvwolf · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate.

Side-note, just out of curiosity why will questing (silver/gold) yield a better CP rate than say just grinding? Would it have something to do with enlightenment?

I was under the impression that the people complaining about being VR14 without silver/gold to do when the CP system came out would just prefer questing to grinding. No argument here either way, just wondering.

Because there is less places to explore, and fewer repeatable quests to take advantage of. You can get experience just on discovering a new location (+50% if you run around with Exploration trait gear). It is feasible for a new VR1 to run on horseback through as much of their Cadwell's Silver alliance and get quite a large boost of CP from just that. There are around 230+ unique locations in ESO, and only a quarter of them discovered in just their starting Alliance.

That's just exploration alone. Non-repeatable but really simple/fast to complete quests that give pretty good chunks of experience only increase it that much more. You don't just get quest experience from doing that content, but the fighting done as you progress through and accomplish the quests.

Faugaun · January 2015

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

You cannot make any assessment of the system until you have tested the system. That is a basic fact. You have no way of knowing how it powerful or not the buffs will be and the resulting inequality because no one external to ZOS has seen it.

I do not see the merits in continuing this thread discussion as it is simply troll bait and premature.

@The_Great_Maldini‌

"Buffs"

If a person have 100 power and another person has 1000 power then there are 900 power between the two people. If the person with 1000 power is given 70 power and the person with 100 power is given 5 then the new powers are 105 and 1100 and there is now 995 power between them.

995 > 900

Therefore balance has diminished... there is absolutely no need to see it on pts to see this difference.

Strictly in Math:

If x = 100 and y = 1000

then

y-x = 900

and

(y + 100) - (x+5) = 995

995 > 900

Balance is defined by the difference in X and Y being as small as possible... absolute equivalence is x=y where the equation is balanced.

Again, absolutely no need to see it on PTS to understand that the power gap is increasing and providing unfair advantage.

It doesn't matter what the numbers are you can make it player "A" has power 100 and player "B" has power 1,000,000,000,000,000,000

The difference in (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 - 100) is still less than the difference between (1,000,000,000,000,000,100 - 105)

This difference whatever it is (maybe large maybe small no one but Zos knows) is an unfair biased advantage. As such people should not receive it until they lose the benefits they get from VR. So I am proposing math more like:

Strictly in Math:

If x = 100 and y = 1000

then

y-x = 900

Then VR rank is removed gear is scaled down this is modeled by:

y-z = 905
x-0 = 100

905 = a
100 = b

Where z is the amount of power lost from gear being scaled down (in this case 95).

Then power (CP) is added to compensate (following the removal and skewing of the power balance):

(a + 100) - (b+5) = 900

900 = 900

I hope the math can convey what the words are failing to convey.

Lied wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate.

Side-note, just out of curiosity why will questing (silver/gold) yield a better CP rate than say just grinding? Would it have something to do with enlightenment?

I was under the impression that the people complaining about being VR14 without silver/gold to do when the CP system came out would just prefer questing to grinding. No argument here either way, just wondering.

@Lied‌ it's assumptions based on how it is currently and ignoring that Zos's goal is to make it so that many activities accrue points at the same rate...we can only wait and see if they manage that goal. At least I have not seen anything more firm.

Robocles wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

While I can understand the concern here, the reason they are awarding the points at the initiation of phase 3 is that people who have completed significant portions (or all) of the current quest content have very little way to generate CPs without grinding. Thus, giving them some kind of initial bump lets them take some advantage of the system.

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate. And, of course, as they level, they have access to the same gear as the higher level VRs as they progress, so, in the end, they have more points and the same gear once they get to that point.

Thanks @Robocles‌ for a logical respone I counter that the improved gear, extra cp and all the other benefits they have received from completing silver and gold would allow them adequate advantage to 'farm CP' at a faster rate than the VR1. Not to mention the extra experience, the time saved from not having to look through loot near as aggressively (because you already have top gear) the lack of need to deconstruct to get mats (same reason) or level your crafting skills. Finally the lack of need to do the bank shuffle, because very little stuff will be saved for later to upgrade you...all of these result in greater time doing things that create CP compared to someone lower. Yes they should get compensated for the silver and gold quests.....but only when they lose the benefits that those quests gave them (ie.. If/when VR system is removed).

Joejudas wrote: »

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

@Joejudas‌ This is not about how much Zos does or does not give this is about WHEN they give.

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Test the system before you start worrying about it. Save your fears of inequality until after seeing how things stand on the PTS.

@The_Great_Maldini‌ If this were about how much then you would be absolutely correct....but it is about when...its easy to see that if the highest level gets points for passives that increase their power and people lower than them do not then there is less balance than before.

A fair system that keeps everyone in there spot without magically pushing people further ahead or further behind is what I am advocating. If the behind people choose to not catch up then that is on them.

First, I get what you are saying, to an extent. The issue is we will have months of time where that capped (or close to capped) character will be required to grind or play another toon to get the same benefit a lower VR char will get. I really don't think that is appropriate.

The issue they have is that they are delaying the removal of the VR ranks (probably for valid reasons... since that will require normalization of all the veteran content) for a significant time after they allow us to use the CS points.

In the end, I doubt 70 points will be game breaking. All VR characters will get the same 1 point per 200k of xp at the time of conversion. Like I said, lower level VRs will be able to earn CP faster (per point of xp) than the people who already have those xp earned when 1.6 drops. And, for the transition, the lower level ones will also get to progress through the VR ranks and get stronger armor and weapons.

I think it's a decent compromise... would I like to get converted at the rate that newer people do.... of course. But, I get the idea that they don't want to create a giant gap from the word go.

I don't think giving people some kind of conversion when the system launches really pushes anyone any further along. It's just giving them credit for content they have already done, and can't do again. The disparity between VR1 and VR14 will still be significant, and, will likely never be bridged assuming equal time invested.

@Robocles‌

Reference "The issue is we will have months of time where that capped (or close to capped) character will be required to grind or play another toon to get the same benefit a lower VR char will get. I really don't think that is appropriate."

If this is true it is problematic (it does not eliminate the problem I stated though) and currently we do not know if this is in fact true.

I agree the issue is in the removal of the VR an extended time after CS implementation....I also agree they probably have valid reasons.

You said "Like I said, lower level VRs will be able to earn CP faster (per point of xp) than the people who already have those xp earned when 1.6 drops."

I think that is speculation and not a valid argument, because Zos has indicated that their goal is for all players to accrue CP at similar (I read that as the goal is equal) rates....meaning that a VR14 doing whatever they are doing should receive about the same CP as a VR1 spending the same amount of time doing something else. This in no way indicates definitively that the lower rank person who has Silver/and gold left will accrue anything at any different rate from a higher rank person (at least not if they succeed with their goal).

It is valid that during the transition if the lower ranks progress then they will gain some of those benefits (such as gear, CP, Skill points etc...) the goal is to make the VR1 who puts in equal effort and time of equal quality end up at the same end (I think we all agree on this?).

you said "I think it's a decent compromise... would I like to get converted at the rate that newer people do.... of course. But, I get the idea that they don't want to create a giant gap from the word go."

Reference this we don't know that you are getting converted at a different rate...how many hours of play time did it take to get from VR1-VR14 ...if non enlightened 70CP = 280 hours of play time. If only enlightened it is 70 hours, the actual will be somewhere in the middle. I red just yesterday where someone said they could grind from VR1-VR14 in two days!

Finally, you said "I don't think giving people some kind of conversion when the system launches really pushes anyone any further along. It's just giving them credit for content they have already done, and can't do again. The disparity between VR1 and VR14 will still be significant, and, will likely never be bridged assuming equal time invested."

Please refer to the math above. A simple delay ensures no unfair benefit. the rest I agree they will likely never bridge assuming equal time invested.

xaraan · January 2015

Players will earn CP and VR as they level up. It only takes a couple weeks to get up to max VR just playing the quests. Your proposal will once again put those that are ahead now in a position to fall behind, even temporarily - something that is unnecessary and unfair to them. This attitude of putting those higher ranked than others in the crosshairs needs to stop. If you want to be on the same playing field - level up. That's what levels and XP are there for.

Robocles · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

You cannot make any assessment of the system until you have tested the system. That is a basic fact. You have no way of knowing how it powerful or not the buffs will be and the resulting inequality because no one external to ZOS has seen it.

I do not see the merits in continuing this thread discussion as it is simply troll bait and premature.

@The_Great_Maldini‌

"Buffs"

If a person have 100 power and another person has 1000 power then there are 900 power between the two people. If the person with 1000 power is given 70 power and the person with 100 power is given 5 then the new powers are 105 and 1100 and there is now 995 power between them.

995 > 900

Therefore balance has diminished... there is absolutely no need to see it on pts to see this difference.

Strictly in Math:

If x = 100 and y = 1000

then

y-x = 900

and

(y + 100) - (x+5) = 995

995 > 900

Balance is defined by the difference in X and Y being as small as possible... absolute equivalence is x=y where the equation is balanced.

Again, absolutely no need to see it on PTS to understand that the power gap is increasing and providing unfair advantage.

It doesn't matter what the numbers are you can make it player "A" has power 100 and player "B" has power 1,000,000,000,000,000,000

The difference in (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 - 100) is still less than the difference between (1,000,000,000,000,000,100 - 105)

This difference whatever it is (maybe large maybe small no one but Zos knows) is an unfair biased advantage. As such people should not receive it until they lose the benefits they get from VR. So I am proposing math more like:

Strictly in Math:

If x = 100 and y = 1000

then

y-x = 900

Then VR rank is removed gear is scaled down this is modeled by:

y-z = 905
x-0 = 100

905 = a
100 = b

Where z is the amount of power lost from gear being scaled down (in this case 95).

Then power (CP) is added to compensate (following the removal and skewing of the power balance):

(a + 100) - (b+5) = 900

900 = 900

I hope the math can convey what the words are failing to convey.

Lied wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate.

Side-note, just out of curiosity why will questing (silver/gold) yield a better CP rate than say just grinding? Would it have something to do with enlightenment?

I was under the impression that the people complaining about being VR14 without silver/gold to do when the CP system came out would just prefer questing to grinding. No argument here either way, just wondering.

@Lied‌ it's assumptions based on how it is currently and ignoring that Zos's goal is to make it so that many activities accrue points at the same rate...we can only wait and see if they manage that goal. At least I have not seen anything more firm.

Robocles wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

While I can understand the concern here, the reason they are awarding the points at the initiation of phase 3 is that people who have completed significant portions (or all) of the current quest content have very little way to generate CPs without grinding. Thus, giving them some kind of initial bump lets them take some advantage of the system.

Remember that the VR1 who is getting no points will have ALL of the content from Silver and Gold available to them to gain points, which will likely happen at a faster rate than the 200k per point conversion rate. And, of course, as they level, they have access to the same gear as the higher level VRs as they progress, so, in the end, they have more points and the same gear once they get to that point.

Thanks @Robocles‌ for a logical respone I counter that the improved gear, extra cp and all the other benefits they have received from completing silver and gold would allow them adequate advantage to 'farm CP' at a faster rate than the VR1. Not to mention the extra experience, the time saved from not having to look through loot near as aggressively (because you already have top gear) the lack of need to deconstruct to get mats (same reason) or level your crafting skills. Finally the lack of need to do the bank shuffle, because very little stuff will be saved for later to upgrade you...all of these result in greater time doing things that create CP compared to someone lower. Yes they should get compensated for the silver and gold quests.....but only when they lose the benefits that those quests gave them (ie.. If/when VR system is removed).

Joejudas wrote: »

The same players that kill you now...are going to kill you afterwards no matter how much ZOS does or doesn't give.....sorry.

@Joejudas‌ This is not about how much Zos does or does not give this is about WHEN they give.

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Test the system before you start worrying about it. Save your fears of inequality until after seeing how things stand on the PTS.

@The_Great_Maldini‌ If this were about how much then you would be absolutely correct....but it is about when...its easy to see that if the highest level gets points for passives that increase their power and people lower than them do not then there is less balance than before.

A fair system that keeps everyone in there spot without magically pushing people further ahead or further behind is what I am advocating. If the behind people choose to not catch up then that is on them.

First, I get what you are saying, to an extent. The issue is we will have months of time where that capped (or close to capped) character will be required to grind or play another toon to get the same benefit a lower VR char will get. I really don't think that is appropriate.

The issue they have is that they are delaying the removal of the VR ranks (probably for valid reasons... since that will require normalization of all the veteran content) for a significant time after they allow us to use the CS points.

In the end, I doubt 70 points will be game breaking. All VR characters will get the same 1 point per 200k of xp at the time of conversion. Like I said, lower level VRs will be able to earn CP faster (per point of xp) than the people who already have those xp earned when 1.6 drops. And, for the transition, the lower level ones will also get to progress through the VR ranks and get stronger armor and weapons.

I think it's a decent compromise... would I like to get converted at the rate that newer people do.... of course. But, I get the idea that they don't want to create a giant gap from the word go.

I don't think giving people some kind of conversion when the system launches really pushes anyone any further along. It's just giving them credit for content they have already done, and can't do again. The disparity between VR1 and VR14 will still be significant, and, will likely never be bridged assuming equal time invested.

@Robocles‌

Reference "The issue is we will have months of time where that capped (or close to capped) character will be required to grind or play another toon to get the same benefit a lower VR char will get. I really don't think that is appropriate."

If this is true it is problematic (it does not eliminate the problem I stated though) and currently we do not know if this is in fact true.

I agree the issue is in the removal of the VR an extended time after CS implementation....I also agree they probably have valid reasons.

You said "Like I said, lower level VRs will be able to earn CP faster (per point of xp) than the people who already have those xp earned when 1.6 drops."

I think that is speculation and not a valid argument, because Zos has indicated that their goal is for all players to accrue CP at similar (I read that as the goal is equal) rates....meaning that a VR14 doing whatever they are doing should receive about the same CP as a VR1 spending the same amount of time doing something else. This in no way indicates definitively that the lower rank person who has Silver/and gold left will accrue anything at any different rate from a higher rank person (at least not if they succeed with their goal).

It is valid that during the transition if the lower ranks progress then they will gain some of those benefits (such as gear, CP, Skill points etc...) the goal is to make the VR1 who puts in equal effort and time of equal quality end up at the same end (I think we all agree on this?).

you said "I think it's a decent compromise... would I like to get converted at the rate that newer people do.... of course. But, I get the idea that they don't want to create a giant gap from the word go."

Reference this we don't know that you are getting converted at a different rate...how many hours of play time did it take to get from VR1-VR14 ...if non enlightened 70CP = 280 hours of play time. If only enlightened it is 70 hours, the actual will be somewhere in the middle. I red just yesterday where someone said they could grind from VR1-VR14 in two days!

Finally, you said "I don't think giving people some kind of conversion when the system launches really pushes anyone any further along. It's just giving them credit for content they have already done, and can't do again. The disparity between VR1 and VR14 will still be significant, and, will likely never be bridged assuming equal time invested."

Please refer to the math above. A simple delay ensures no unfair benefit. the rest I agree they will likely never bridge assuming equal time invested.

My point is not with the enlightenment buff, or how long it takes. My point is that my currently VR12 character will have his XP converted at a rate of 200k per CP. I will absolutely guarantee you that the conversion rate at 1.6 drop will be worse than the rate you can get CP per XP once the system is live.

Delaying the points means I (with normal gear, and deconning stuff just like I always have for not only my alts but guild members) will have significantly less content to do to get the same points that a new VR player (or lower level VR player) has.

My point still stands: The gap between VR1 and VR14 will be significant. I'm not getting anything that I wouldn't have gotten had I leveled after the change. I will have the same gear a new VR could get after the change is made. However, I will always have less CP for the same XP (quest content) that the newer player has. And, that gap, given equal time invested, will never close anyway. Players who spend more time will have more points. That's the way the system is designed.

Honestly, I'm on the fence as to how this progression system will work in the long term. I wonder how you will have any kind of real end game group content when the main way you differentiate players will, by design, keep them leagues apart based on time spent. I don't particularly like level cap increases/tier grinds, but, at least there is an end point for a period of time. Here, it's like a treadmill... you keep chugging along endlessly to progress in CP, with no way to ever get to the end.

Edit: I intentionally ignored the math because it is purely speculative.

Stonesthrow · January 2015

Does anyone even know what you have to DO to become enlightened... enlightened being what we assume, based on ESO LIVE, is the state we need to be in order to actually EARN CPs in the first place?

Believe I heard that you also get a boost to being enlightened for being logged off for an extended period, although not sure what that entails either.

It's not just XPs, it's not what used to be VPs, it's not even about just APs... it's just "playing the game" while being enlightened, whatever that is.

Until someone explains, someone who actually is not guessing, most of this is just irrelevant.

Hell, you might get it for farming herbs after meditating (drinking) at a tavern... you might even get FOR drinking, errr... meditating.

seanvwolf · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

If a person have 100 power and another person has 1000 power then there are 900 power between the two people. If the person with 1000 power is given 70 power and the person with 100 power is given 5 then the new powers are 105 and 1100 and there is now 995 power between them.

The difference between a VR14 and a VR1 as a 10:1 difference?
Bwahahaha.

And if the 70 new power is based on diminished returns, that 5 doesn't suffer as a 70:5 ratio.

Faugaun · January 2015

I gave you an insightful on that last one @Robocles‌

It will be interesting how end game group content will exists when all players are constantly getting strong and there is no system to group them as similar or different in power.

I imagine it will eventually end in "need 2000+ CP, please post link to live webcam to authenticate your CP".... Or something else equally nonsensical.

Robocles · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

I gave you an insightful on that last one @Robocles‌

It will be interesting how end game group content will exists when all players are constantly getting strong and there is no system to group them as similar or different in power.

I imagine it will eventually end in "need 2000+ CP, please post link to live webcam to authenticate your CP".... Or something else equally nonsensical.

Yeah... that's my concern, too.

Plenty of time to enjoy the content until then, though.

And, I really appreciate your thoughtful ideas and replies in this thread.

Faugaun · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I gave you an insightful on that last one @Robocles‌

It will be interesting how end game group content will exists when all players are constantly getting strong and there is no system to group them as similar or different in power.

I imagine it will eventually end in "need 2000+ CP, please post link to live webcam to authenticate your CP".... Or something else equally nonsensical.

Yeah... that's my concern, too.

Plenty of time to enjoy the content until then, though.

And, I really appreciate your thoughtful ideas and replies in this thread.

Back atcha!

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

A simple delay will open up more the potential for more "unfair" benefits:

Virgin VR1 plays for a week, gets to XP 3,000,000 (just made VR4). Gains some CP on the way - maybe as many as 30.

Another player had just made VR3, and in the same week reaches VR4, has 3,000,000 XP, but fewer CP - maybe only 10.

Two players, same VR level, same XP. One has more CP, the other has to wait until 1.7 to get his "compensation".

If they then play on at the same rate they will go through the VR ranks together and have the same XP, but the original VR3 will ALWAYS have fewer CP until 1.7 comes out. However they might not progress through the same content at the same rate, because one has fewer CP than the other.

And when 1.7 comes out the original VR3 will only get 10 CP (based on the 200,000XP to 1 CP exchange rate), which might not be the same as that gained from the first 2,000,000 XP.

This was pointed out on the first page for the case of a VR14 who doesn't play while a virgin VR1 levels up to VR14. But it isn't a case of VR14s complaining that VR1s will, over time, be artificially elevated.

The problem is of two players with the same rank, the same XP, but one has more CP than the other.

And that is not "fair".