Please delay CP conversions till after VR is removed.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

So if I level to VR 14 in a few months (after this is all implemented) then you will give me the same thing?

No, because it is a one-time benefit, as stated by zos, but I bet if you did level to V14 you'd have about 70 cp's, lookie there solved your problem.

DarthRupert

@Faugaun While I dont agree with your method of fixing it, I do agree that there is a matter of concern with some extra gains.
It would be incredibly difficult to add the champion system and take vr away all in one patch. Most likely it would send us back to beta level balancing issues. I do think the removal of vr attribute points would be a good idea since the cp system adds extra. This is something that is probably planned though.
Personally I view this somewhat as a temporary beta period before they are able to complete balancing cp system and removing vr. I know despite trouble that I or other players experience the game will become better because of it. Hopefully they can cover most cp balancing in PTS, so that the second part of the update can release sooner.
I suggest that every single player goes onto the PTS at least one time and report/feedback everything they find.

Roechacca

I just said F it an started finishing my VR14 Grind .

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

So if I level to VR 14 in a few months (after this is all implemented) then you will give me the same thing?

No, because it is a one-time benefit, as stated by zos, but I bet if you did level to V14 you'd have about 70 cp's, lookie there solved your problem.

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical? Oh wait you got freebie...just because so you have 140 CP and I only have 70CP....you know whatever you put in some time ahead so bonus is fine (except you had the non-level 50 gear also...see double benefit) and thus were able to do more damage and get more experience doing the exact same activity because you have bonus stats from gear AND passives from CS ....at the same time....so instead you earned say 90 cp from the same effort (due to double benefit) while I gained only 70 from identical activity (just because you had double bonus effects) and had you been a vr14 or CS +70 only (not both) then perhaps you would only have gained 80 in the same time ....its this added benefit between the 80 and the 90 cp earned that I am complaining about

I am not saying you shouldn't get compensated for previous effort under an old and soon to be (if Zos goes through with it) obselete VR system. That is for Zos to decide...personally I don't like it but that's fine I'll tolerate that because they did indicate that they would do that.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't get that benefit until VR is removed.

Edit: oops lost my train of though the rest added in italics

BalerionBlackDread

roechacca wrote: »

I just said F it an started finishing my VR14 Grind .

That is what any sane/reasonable gamer would do, but op wants to be here. I think I have an idea of what op really wanted to say, but didn't want to sound like a petty d**che:

'I can't have 70 cp when 1.6 launches, so no one should have 70cp when 1.6 launches'

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I just said F it an started finishing my VR14 Grind .

That is what any sane/reasonable gamer would do, but op wants to be here. I think I have an idea of what op really wanted to say, but didn't want to sound like a petty d**che:

'I can't have 70 cp when 1.6 launches, so no one should have 70cp when 1.6 launches'

Which is why I am saying that you still get your 70 CP...just at a different time? A more fair time? While I still get 0 at that same more fair time?

Yup, you nailed it pal...(loaded with tons of sarcasm)

Joejudas

You dont put the time in....you don't get the same reward. If you want I'll get anyone who wants one a box of tissues.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical? Oh wait you got freebie...just because so you have 140 CP and I only have 70CP....you know whatever you put in some time ahead so bonus is fine (except you had the non-level 50 gear also...see double benefit) and thus were able to do more damage and get more experience doing the exact same activity because you have bonus stats from gear AND passives from CS ....at the same time....

First, in this situation (had the CS not existed) I would have all those other advantages (everything but the CP), would you still decry those? Would you say, 'no I should have the same gear/sp/morphs/exp as you? No, you wouldn't, so the only real issue is the CP's. Now, those 70 champion points suffer DR after the first 10-20 points used, those passives are not the huge advantages you think they are. They are specific tweaks for detailed character customization.

I am not saying you shouldn't get compensated for previous effort under an old and soon to be (if Zos goes through with it) obselete VR system. That is for Zos to decide...personally I don't like it but that's fine I'll tolerate that because they did indicate that they would do that.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't get that benefit until VR is removed.

You're saying this because you're still under the false impression that is compensation for loss, IT IS NOT!!!!!! I haven't lost a damn thing in this game, I will not lose a damn thing in this game in the future, you haven't lost a damn thing in this game (barring any hacks or the like), you will not lose a damn thing in this game in the future.

Let me bottom line this for you, I guarantee if ZOS by some miracle would go through with your plan of waiting to drop the 70 cp, you (and all the people you're supposedly championing that this isn't fair to) won't like it one bit. As I stated before, if it is pushed back to 1.7 (and cp gain is allowed in 1.6) you will be even farther behind, because if you haven't made V14 yet, you won't in the time until 1.7 and all those people who know how to play the game will have a s**t ton more CP's and you will be even more sad than you are right now.

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical? Oh wait you got freebie...just because so you have 140 CP and I only have 70CP....you know whatever you put in some time ahead so bonus is fine (except you had the non-level 50 gear also...see double benefit) and thus were able to do more damage and get more experience doing the exact same activity because you have bonus stats from gear AND passives from CS ....at the same time....

First, in this situation (had the CS not existed) I would have all those other advantages (everything but the CP), would you still decry those? Would you say, 'no I should have the same gear/sp/morphs/exp as you? No, you wouldn't, so the only real issue is the CP's. Now, those 70 champion points suffer DR after the first 10-20 points used, those passives are not the huge advantages you think they are. They are specific tweaks for detailed character customization.

I am not saying you shouldn't get compensated for previous effort under an old and soon to be (if Zos goes through with it) obselete VR system. That is for Zos to decide...personally I don't like it but that's fine I'll tolerate that because they did indicate that they would do that.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't get that benefit until VR is removed.

You're saying this because you're still under the false impression that is compensation for loss, IT IS NOT!!!!!! I haven't lost a damn thing in this game, I will not lose a damn thing in this game in the future, you haven't lost a damn thing in this game (barring any hacks or the like), you will not lose a damn thing in this game in the future.

Let me bottom line this for you, I guarantee if ZOS by some miracle would go through with your plan of waiting to drop the 70 cp, you (and all the people you're supposedly championing that this isn't fair to) won't like it one bit. As I stated before, if it is pushed back to 1.7 (and cp gain is allowed in 1.6) you will be even farther behind, because if you haven't made V14 yet, you won't in the time until 1.7 and all those people who know how to play the game will have a s**t ton more CP's and you will be even more sad than you are right now.

Again if you lost nothing then why not the 30 cp plan? What makes you special?

Valencer

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

Aren't you worried that you're trying to draw an analogy between playing a game and being at work?

A lot of you seem to be missing the point here. This isn't about having some kind of agenda to deny VR14s their rightfull rewards or whatever. You'd all still get your 70 CP. Just not right away at Update 6, while the veteran rank system is still in place.

Giving them at Update 6 means that veteran ranks essentially reward you double until Update 7, with both a veteran rank (with stat boosts and better gear) and champion points for unlocking bonuses in the Champion System. This will increase the power gap between VR1 and VR14 further until VRs are removed, which isn't needed at all!

Vyle_Byte

So... I am confuzzled. Is OP not going to play his V1 until after 1.6 is out?

Its not even on the PTS yet, so why wont you get any points? You cant earn at least 200k xp before its out?

Funny thing this. lol

technohic

I don't get the forum logic. You get 5 CP per VR level you earned to a max of 70 CP; but CP is not being compensation for your VR levels? WTF?

It just doesn't make sense.

murmur

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical?

Possibly, because I have already done all those quests, so I can't get any XP from it towards to my next CP.

Those 70 CP ain't there to compensate the removal of VR levels I have, it's to compensate the quest XP that I can't get anymore to my CP pool like those can who are VR1 and haven't done Cadwell's silver/gold.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

Again if you lost nothing then why not the 30 cp plan? What makes you special?

First, I never said that I was one of the ones up in arms about the 30 cp.
Second, I'm not special, other than the fact that I got a toon to V14.
Third, as I have explained in a previous post, the reason they went away from the 30 cp was because people felt they deserved more cp for their effort (if they had a V14) than some one who didn't, period, point blank, end of story. Also, as I said before, it compensation based on accomplishment, not in any way compensation for loss.

Now, I'm starting to think that you are being willfully dense! This is not a hard concept to understand, so I must assume you are mentally handicapped, home schooled in Utah, constantly hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, on some sort of drugs, trolling or listening to voices in your head that are telling you to not understand things.

nerevarine1138

murmur wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical?

Possibly, because I have already done all those quests, so I can't get any XP from it towards to my next CP.

Those 70 CP ain't there to compensate the removal of VR levels I have, it's to compensate the quest XP that I can't get anymore to my CP pool like those can who are VR1 and haven't done Cadwell's silver/gold.

The bolded part is the vital one, OP. If you want to look at this as compensation, that's what the Champion Points given with 1.6 compensate for. As a VR1, you have access to two alliances worth of quests that I've already completed.

JackDaniell

Think of it this way, I have logged over 50 days game time on my v14, I should have gained (before all the CP balancing stuff came up) an upwards of 800 champion points when the system goes live. But no, I only get 70 now which is an improvement from 30.

In ESO live they described earning one champion point as roughly equal to one hour of moderate EXP generating game time (sorry RP'ers). I have a feeling that people will be able to "grind" points on release to live as well, likely being able to cut that time down. This makes me think that 10 CP a day will not be difficult to achieve for most players who play 4-5 hours with the intent of getting some points. Possibly a much higher value if they used a top grind method.

Finally the difference at this moment between a v1 and a v14 is not quite so large, usually the biggest difference is the v14 has completed sets that are better sets (not in improved quality but just all around better 2,3,4,5 piece bonus) and level of skill and experience. If they had the same sets (both green) and the same level of combat skill the v1 and v14 would only have about a 10% difference in total stats.

TLDR: 70 CP will likely not be very many points, with the system capping at 3600 that just under 2% points earned. Just wait until 6 months from now, or a year. Then you may be at a real disadvantage assuming you just hit level 50 for the first time.

Antiquity

OP - while I can see what you're saying, its not worth kicking the hornet's nest for. At least, I don't see it as enough of a disadvantage to.

I think a situational example might explain your point better. Let's say 1.6 went live today.
I'm roughly 220,000 points in to V1. I have a lot of trouble finding dungeon groups, as most people doing pledges are V8-V14. No one I've found wants to take a V1 tank along with them. Understandable - you guys want to get in and out, not give your healer an aneurysm by overtaxing him.

With 1.6 live, those V8-V14s are going to have even less interest in taking me along, seeing as how along with their extra ability points and spiffy gear they'll also have 69 CP on me, making their run even easier if they take someone their level as apposed to me - making it even harder for me to find a group to get better gear and get on their level etc.

I think this situation is what devs were trying to avoid with the 30 cp for all plan. I really prefer to earn my CP anyway, but it would be nice if I could earn some of it doing dungeons as apposed to solo questing. But unlike some who cry about not wanting to earn xps by (insert one: pvp/dailies/solo/grouping/etc.) I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. Xps are xps, and I'll solo quest to oblivion and back to be able to run with the big boys. Its more fun than spending my time QQ'ing on the boards, at least

If I've misundertood your OP at all, sorry.

Yusuf

Valencer wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

It's not "for no reason" they put a lot more time and effort into the game.

seanvwolf

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical? Oh wait you got freebie...just because so you have 140 CP and I only have 70CP...

I was going to not discuss, but you've made a liar of me and replied with another epic fail in logic.

If we both level side by side, you will have 70cp when you finally reach full vr14... and you'll have the gear to match, unless of course you are still wearing v1 gears which I highly doubt at that point. Sure, I'll have 140cp but that's because all the while, while capped at vr14, I put in (atleast!) twice as much time with that veteran play. Just like you'll have when also get to the amount of experience I've gained (exceeding 70cps). The more you post, the more it shows you are just hurt because you will always be behind, even though we've already explained to you that the CP gains have diminished returns. The difference between 70 and 140 cps is even less than 0 and 70. I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand that. Next, say I get 140 cps but you put in 300% more time as I do, in the time it takes me to get 70 more cp and you end up with 210 cp. These aren't "freebies", this is compensation for play time that's been spent. Don't be immature with this, please. It only makes your argument that much weaker.

WraithAzraiel

Valencer wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

Not at all true, necessarily. When you look at available content for Champion Point earnings, a V1 would have WAY more potential than a V14.

I have a V14. I don't run Trials, I don't often run dungeons, I PvP. If I want to earn Champion points with my V14, I have to either start grinding kills, start running trials or run dungeons more often, as CP will likely follow the trend set by XP gain in PvP (slim to none).

As a V1 you still have ALL OF CADWELL'S SILVER AND GOLD content to do, during which you will not only be gaining Vet levels, if you do it before they're removed, but you'll also be gaining champion points.

Hell you might even gain more than 70 champion points before you're V14, who knows. They haven't released the amount of time or XP required per Champion Point aside from the initial conversion.

Faugaun wrote: »

Please keep in mind this is from the view of a VR1 who has subbed since the beginning.



Cheers,
A concerned VR1

P.S. Zos I know you guys listen it is evident in all your actions. Please consider this and make the best decision for the game.

This isn't the best decision for the game, not in the slightest. They tried the communist, "balanced", little league "everybody gets a trophy just for showing up" approach. The majority railed against it and won.

And speaking as someone who has also been here since pre-launch, if you're still VR1 - that's not ZOS' problem. Nor is it a bad thing. Maybe you have alt-itis, maybe you work a lot, maybe you spend time with your family. That's how you play and there's nothing wrong with it.

But you're asking for something for nothing. And you're asking them to shoot themselves in the foot by postponing an integral stage in the Champion System roll out.


You can't just jump straight from Stage 2 to Stage 4 and expect everything to be okay.

1.6 is Stage 3 of the Champion System release, introduction of Champion Points. It'll be tested, go live, have all the monumental glaring problems fixed and THEN only THEN will the ball start rolling on Stage 4.

BalerionBlackDread

Valencer wrote: »

Aren't you worried that you're trying to draw an analogy between playing a game and being at work?

True I shouldn't have tried to draw that parallel, I was just expanding his economic 'rich get richer' analogy.


A lot of you seem to be missing the point here. This isn't about having some kind of agenda to deny VR14s their rightfull rewards or whatever. You'd all still get your 70 CP. Just not right away at Update 6, while the veteran rank system is still in place.

I already explained to Fauguan how this would only make his situation worse.

Giving them at Update 6 means that veteran ranks essentially reward you double until Update 7, with both a veteran rank (with stat boosts and better gear) and champion points for unlocking bonuses in the Champion System. This will increase the power gap between VR1 and VR14 further until VRs are removed, which isn't needed at all!

It is in no way a double reward because everyone would've gotten that exp anyways, regardless of the new system. All veterans are getting compensated based on their level, but the exp is gained through playing the game, not a bonus. The only bonus is one-time bonus of cp based on your level. Everything else that a V14 and a V1 will earn after that they would have gotten anyways, why is this hard to understand? And those 70 points are not going to produce as much of a gap as people think. If you go back listen to the guild summit on the CS, they talk about how these passives are mainly for tweaking/customizing playstyle. I mean, one of the passives is War Mount, take more damage before being dismounted. How is that a huge advantage?

I ask, if this happened the way you want, would you also want cp's to not be gained until 1.7 as well? As I told Fauguan, the same people he doesn't want to have the 70 cp's will be balls deeps in cp by 1.7 regardless and those 70 cp will just be icing on their cake.

If VR's aren't removed then they might as well just scrap the whole CS and go back to the way it was. Doesn't that sound ric**kulous? Wouldn't you rather see a new system come in and do away with the old?

BalerionBlackDread

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

murmur wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical?

Possibly, because I have already done all those quests, so I can't get any XP from it towards to my next CP.

Those 70 CP ain't there to compensate the removal of VR levels I have, it's to compensate the quest XP that I can't get anymore to my CP pool like those can who are VR1 and haven't done Cadwell's silver/gold.

The bolded part is the vital one, OP. If you want to look at this as compensation, that's what the Champion Points given with 1.6 compensate for. As a VR1, you have access to two alliances worth of quests that I've already completed.

You are so right, I should've had that in all my posts, thank you for putting it out there.

Faugaun

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

So... I am confuzzled. Is OP not going to play his V1 until after 1.6 is out?

Its not even on the PTS yet, so why wont you get any points? You cant earn at least 200k xp before its out?

Funny thing this. lol

You're missing the point this isn't about how many CP I get, you get or anyone else gets...it is about when we get the CP that we get.

Amsel_McKay

So much entitlement by both sides... The VR14s cant wait a few months and the VR1s dont want to level to save quests...

Zenimax should have just been quiet on what they are going to do until they tested the thing for a while. I have a feeling though:

VR1 5cp vs. VR14 70cp THE GAP IS HUGE
VR1 30cp vs. VR14 30cp THE GAP IS HUGE
VR1 5cp vs. VR1 70cp The gap is small
VR1 30cp vs. VR1 30cp there is a new gap because the first one has quests to get more CP from this point on.

While there are VR ranks the system is broken... I stopped leveling my alts at VR just because its boring. One of my accounts has a VR14 while my other two have VR8s (as far as gold and silver get you)

I guess the difference between and a majority of you here is that I solo PvE so it goes not matter if I have 3600 CP or 10 (at the moment) and when I PVP its zergs anyway and it does not matter how great I am...

When EQ added *** I had something like 12,000 in the first year and I cant imagine someone new trying to catch up, but then again what is the point the elite entitled players dont want "new / casual players" in their uber high end content game anyway.

I learned after hardcore playing EQ and WOW that I will never be the best at a game again, because family, work and hobbies that are outside are more important to playing 60+ hour raids with no sleep in the PoG to get an item that makes me 0.000001% better then another player, but I dont want to take that lesson away from others who are in different parts of their life

In short Zenimax should wait until a 2 or 3 month test of CP... its game changing enough to where they call it ESO 2.0...

seanvwolf

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

murmur wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So if I am at vr1 and I quest with you who just turned VR14 and got +70 CPS and we both level together doing identical things....then when I reach VR14 we will be identical?

Possibly, because I have already done all those quests, so I can't get any XP from it towards to my next CP.

Those 70 CP ain't there to compensate the removal of VR levels I have, it's to compensate the quest XP that I can't get anymore to my CP pool like those can who are VR1 and haven't done Cadwell's silver/gold.

The bolded part is the vital one, OP. If you want to look at this as compensation, that's what the Champion Points given with 1.6 compensate for. As a VR1, you have access to two alliances worth of quests that I've already completed.

You are so right, I should've had that in all my posts, thank you for putting it out there.

Course you could just level *another* character to do the same thing... but really, this is a poor solution for those players who already have 8 v14 characters (which is not impossible. The game is 8 months old and leveling a character to v14 is very feasible within a five week span, faster considering alts tend to move quicker due to better crafted gear, friends able to group with and knowing more efficient ways of leveling as you quest grind).

WraithAzraiel

Valencer wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

Also, there is a reason. They put in the work - be it through grinding or through questing. It's time and effort. Triple that of a V1. Unless they used broken Craglorn things to max level. Then it's probably only double that of a V1.

But for those of us V14's who have gone through all of Cadwell's Silver and Gold, gone the completionist route and got all the achievables per zone. We put in more than enough time and effort to warrant the reward.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

So... I am confuzzled. Is OP not going to play his V1 until after 1.6 is out?

Its not even on the PTS yet, so why wont you get any points? You cant earn at least 200k xp before its out?

Funny thing this. lol

You're missing the point this isn't about how many CP I get, you get or anyone else gets...it is about when we get the CP that we get.

And I'll say it again for you, The reason to get the points before is for many reasons. To see how the system works on a live server, to test each tweak, to see how the respec system is, to have a nice immediate stash of points to play with. You don't understand this because you are a Rper (I think), and I'm sorry but this is system is more than stories and playacting. It is a system for character development in a practical sense. I don't know what occupies your time in this game, but if it were progression/practical character development, then you would see the need to have a nice chunk of points to play with right from the start.

Roechacca

The OP is trying to say that a VR14 with Champion Points will be OP . That they shouldn't get any champion points until Veteran Ranks are removed .

He added some crazy math to evaluate this claim ...

Now I'm gonna go back to leveling cause I'm bad at math .

Xjcon

I could care less either way this goes. But op you must have missed how this works. You have to threaten to leave the game if they don't change it to what you view is fair.

TequilaFire

Just want to point out to the OP in the time since this thread was posted I have taken an alt up 3 levels.
Not bragging just trying to point out your time would be better spent playing and leveling!