I'd rather they sorted out as many bugs as possible themselves before it hits the PTS and then leave us to find anything else afterwards. There is generally a limited time that it is posible to keep something on PTS before the pressure to make it live gets too much. So the better shape the update is in before it hits the PTS then the better it will be when it goes live eventually.

Come on people, a little more patience wouldn't hurt you. Deep breaths.

I think it's funny how everyone here keeps talking about "new content".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.6 does not really contain any new content, does it?

There's the PvE part of the Justice System, which is just the ability to steal stuff from NPCs and to kill a few of them. The rest of the update consists of system overhauls.

A new character progrssion system is not new content. The CS means getting points to invest in your character for doing the same old content we already had.

New content is what I'd call the addition of the rest of the Justice System, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Imperial City, Murkmire, Wrothgar, Housing, new Dungeons, etc.

AngryNord wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

The project managers and other key personnel at ZOS know the current target date for updating the PTS.

What makes you think that?

I am under the assumption ZOS follows a modern software development lifecycle which generally includes some sort of project schedule. Even if the schedule is estimated, there will be target dates based on workload or task completion. The dates and tasks may be subject to change due to poor project estimation, management or code; but a date exists in a file or email somewhere.

The lack of a publicly announced date suggests the date is or has been changing recently. Or it could be that the ZOS teams are having a very difficult time meeting the current date (January 30?) which is why ZOS is being vague about it due to the flack they receive by missing the date.

Either way, we should all be concerned about the real reason a public tentative date has not been announced. The update just isn't ready. In fact, I think there is a solid chance 1.6 won't hit the PTS until February. And when it does hit the PTS, players need to prepare themselves for disappointment as ZOS seldom fixes player reported bugs on the PTS. There will not be much difference in 1.6 between the first version which reaches the PTS and the version which reaches the live server.

Sorry, but if they would have posted a specific date and they can't make it on that intended date, everyone would rage about them lying again, too.

I think it's totally reasonable to give a rather vague date. It comes, when it comes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks guys, and don't worry. It'll be coming SOON.

Am I the only one that took that kinda cheeky like:

We know that we say soon alot, and here's a reminder? lol. Trolling statement is trolling

Everyone complains that this is taking too long, but then they complain that things weren't in development and testing long enough.

Everyone complains that ZOS doesn't give enough of a head's up as to exact release dates, but then they complain that ZOS gave them bad information or lied when ZOS ends up having to change something after they prematurely announced it.

How about everyone learns some patience. It will be released when it is released. Your nagging isn't going to impact it one way or another, and just because you're a paying customer doesn't mean you have an inalienable, God-given right to know Zenimax's exact timeline. Sure, you have a right to a rough timeline, but they already gave you that. I'm willing to bet that they don't have an exact date themselves, and people need to keep in mind that such things as release dates are and always will be subject to change.

I'm willing to give them as much time as they need.

Horizontal Progression with the Champion System we're getting, is something MMOs are very lacking these days. I see it as a big addition to the game.

Justice System though, most MMOs don't even have one. And I can't think of any who does have it, which is also decent.

So there you go -> my reasons why I don't see this "potential" delay as something bad.

lordrichter wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

The project managers and other key personnel at ZOS know the current target date for updating the PTS.

What makes you think that?

I am under the assumption ZOS follows a modern software development lifecycle which generally includes some sort of project schedule. Even if the schedule is estimated, there will be target dates based on workload or task completion. The dates and tasks may be subject to change due to poor project estimation, management or code; but a date exists in a file or email somewhere.

The lack of a publicly announced date suggests the date is or has been changing recently. Or it could be that the ZOS teams are having a very difficult time meeting the current date (January 30?) which is why ZOS is being vague about it due to the flack they receive by missing the date.

Either way, we should all be concerned about the real reason a public tentative date has not been announced. The update just isn't ready. In fact, I think there is a solid chance 1.6 won't hit the PTS until February. And when it does hit the PTS, players need to prepare themselves for disappointment as ZOS seldom fixes player reported bugs on the PTS. There will not be much difference in 1.6 between the first version which reaches the PTS and the version which reaches the live server.

WE should not be concerned at all. It is the 6th day of January, not the 26th.

ZOS uses iterative agile development. Depending on how they have chosen to implement it, that can mean a lot of things.

From observation, this means that builds will narrow in on the target. We see this as bug fixes rather than finished product. It also means that fixes may not be in the next build we see due to the defect pipeline being longer than the build cycle.

Agile is not a stop and fix it development process. It is a keep moving forward process. Things do not stop just to fix bugs. They get priority in a properly implemented process but they do not stop development.

Agile is also a show the customer process. There is leeway here, but the intent is to let the customer have it sooner, even if a bit rough, so that customer input can be used in a future delivery.

Edit... was intended for a different thread, but still applies... Agile, when properly implemented is not calendar driven.

I do agree that a proper agile environment based on tasks or stories or whatever term you prefer is not calendar driven. However, upper management, public relations, marketing and customers are all (usually) focused on the calendar which requires some sort of time conversion for the unfinished Agile stories and milestones. This time translation (it's not a flat circle for us) is the challenge.

I would be more forgiving of ZOS' refusal to give us a specific target date with caveats if we hadn't essentially been robbed of our sub fees for two months with nothing new. I would also be more forgiving if ZOS' Software development approach, provided it is Agile based, actually included time to address PTS issues before release instead of after it.

Pretty much every major problem or hotfix we see in the first few days after an update is deployed to the live server was first reported on the PTS. Why not delay the deployment to live by a week or two in order to address the user issues on the PTS? Why wait until the update goes live before fixing these issues? The ZOS agile process is not very adaptive considering the begging they do for people to use the PTS. It's a very conflicting and duplicitous approach until you realize ZOS uses the PTS as a deployment test server and not as a content test server.

I do wish to thank Gina for being honest. ZOS does read our PTS bugs and feedback. They just don't act on it.