Shunravi wrote: »

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Did you test it against the very same type of enemy every time?. When I did it to mudcrabs to test just the base numbers IE, no block mitigation or spell resist. My numbers were spot on.

Yes. Three independent tests. Each performed on the same mob type for each test. One was mudcrabs, one was lurchers, and one was gargoyles. My numbers were spot in as well. I was very thorough. then I performed subjective testing through instances and compared dps.

The biggest disparaty I was able to achieve was 17%, and that was on my tank gear.

Edit: Now, this does not mean I am necessarily right, but in all my tests I have not seen the full 22% apply. I'm not trying to advocate for this skill being op or anything, I have just tested something different.

Interesting!! My numbers seemed to be spot on as I said. I only tested it against one enemy mudcrabs. Withing a 2-3% marigin. Just wanted a solid base line to do the calculations.

Now the numbers would obviously be different with light compared to heavy, due to the passives of light armor giving a boost to spell damage and penetration.

Did you try with no armor? Just curious cause i did not. (will be today).
Which I do feel kind of stupid about not trying. As these would be the absolute baseline numbers needed to accurately evaluate the damage reduction.

Regardless as someone else said this is not an OP skill. Everyone seems to forget that a DK has a self heal that will heal them for 33% of their max health with absolutely no drawbacks.

As a nightblade I will say it really sucks having to loose that much damage to be able to maintain resources.

I should test with no armor...

I'm having another nightblade help farm up some numbers later today. We will do some more in depth testing then.

Also, I'm using the percent difference equation;
( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100
just so we are on the same page with that.

I was actually getting 6.68% upon testing... with my PvE dps build. Which is why I asked another nighblade to help test numbers, because it just didn't seem quite right.

So, a baseline would be good to establish.

But yea, GDB also gives impressive regens, making it useful even without the heal.

OK, we are done testing.

Equation Example;

We tried many variables and combinations. we tested weapon and magic, as well as heals.

We found that the ratio is the same regardless of crit, per ability used.


Naked, there was a 12% avg global penalty to spells.

Naked, there was a 18.4 avg global penalty to weapon damage.

Geared, (~900+ magica) 7% avg global penalty to spells. (the lowest % difference was 6.5% when both toggle on and off were past softcap (135) because softcap reduces the stat separately from SA.

Weapon Damage maintained a roughly 12% penalty with the gear and enchants we had.

Mutagen maintained a 9.5% penalty with the weapon damage we tested with. (If used before toggling SA on, you can keep the higher heal going by reapplying it)

Healing Springs maintained a 8.2% penalty.

We found that these rates applied consistently over the various skills and abilities we used.

So yea, not 22%. Try 6.5% for me

Cody wrote: »

I also faced a DK who, despite me having hit him at least 30-50 times with light attacks and flurries, COMBINED with shades. still managed to keep their block up.

very frustrating.

I was having some fun in vet3 Greenshade back when my DK was vet3. In heavy armor and using block cost reduction enchants, i would aggro three wasp nests at once, then put up razor armor, drop a cinder storm, and watch them all kill themselves on me while i blocked the whole time. That is some 15+ or so mobs pelting you with fast attacks. Never ran out of stamina

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Did you test it against the very same type of enemy every time?. When I did it to mudcrabs to test just the base numbers IE, no block mitigation or spell resist. My numbers were spot on.

Yes. Three independent tests. Each performed on the same mob type for each test. One was mudcrabs, one was lurchers, and one was gargoyles. My numbers were spot in as well. I was very thorough. then I performed subjective testing through instances and compared dps.

The biggest disparaty I was able to achieve was 17%, and that was on my tank gear.

Edit: Now, this does not mean I am necessarily right, but in all my tests I have not seen the full 22% apply. I'm not trying to advocate for this skill being op or anything, I have just tested something different.

Interesting!! My numbers seemed to be spot on as I said. I only tested it against one enemy mudcrabs. Withing a 2-3% marigin. Just wanted a solid base line to do the calculations.

Now the numbers would obviously be different with light compared to heavy, due to the passives of light armor giving a boost to spell damage and penetration.

Did you try with no armor? Just curious cause i did not. (will be today).
Which I do feel kind of stupid about not trying. As these would be the absolute baseline numbers needed to accurately evaluate the damage reduction.

Regardless as someone else said this is not an OP skill. Everyone seems to forget that a DK has a self heal that will heal them for 33% of their max health with absolutely no drawbacks.

As a nightblade I will say it really sucks having to loose that much damage to be able to maintain resources.

I should test with no armor...

I'm having another nightblade help farm up some numbers later today. We will do some more in depth testing then.

Also, I'm using the percent difference equation;
( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100
just so we are on the same page with that.

I was actually getting 6.68% upon testing... with my PvE dps build. Which is why I asked another nighblade to help test numbers, because it just didn't seem quite right.

So, a baseline would be good to establish.

But yea, GDB also gives impressive regens, making it useful even without the heal.

OK, we are done testing.

Equation Example;

Value based off of naked funnel health with toggle on/off

off,V1 = 272 and on,V2 = 242

( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 272 - 242 | / ((272 + 242)/2) ) * 100
= ( | 30 | / (514/2) ) * 100
= ( 30 / 257 ) * 100
= 0.116732 * 100

= 11.6732% difference

We tried many variables and combinations. we tested weapon and magic, as well as heals.

We found that the ratio is the same regardless of crit, per ability used.


Naked, there was a 12% avg global penalty to spells.

Naked, there was a 18.4 avg global penalty to weapon damage.

Geared, (~900+ magica) 7% avg global penalty to spells. (the lowest % difference was 6.5% when both toggle on and off were past softcap (135) because softcap reduces the stat separately from SA.

Weapon Damage maintained a roughly 12% penalty with the gear and enchants we had.

Mutagen maintained a 9.5% penalty with the weapon damage we tested with. (If used before toggling SA on, you can keep the higher heal going by reapplying it)

Healing Springs maintained a 8.2% penalty.

We found that these rates applied consistently over the various skills and abilities we used.

So yea, not 22%. Try 6.5% for me

Thank you everyone who ran their own tests!!!

The numbers are on the money.

The difference with armor must be due to the passives for each armor set. Also to the passives of the weapons and skill lines.

In retrospect, due to the fact that the passive skills in all trees increase damage among other things, I think, correct me if i am wrong the actual test would have to be done with a new character with no skill points in the passives, and no armor.

And test must be done with the same race. (I would think)

Not arguing with your numbers or logic.
Just wondering if you took the passives into account. Class, Weapon and racial passives.

They were a consideration. We tried to take all variables possible into account, and so we decided to average the results. Despite variations in passives, attribute distribution, and enchantment strength, the % difference was consistent enough (0.3% variation) that we decided to use that as our % error. We did not mix spell damage with medium armor, for example, so we did not get a read on how those passives effected our results. Also, the only softcap we played with was the spell damage softcap. We did not eat food or apply any other buffs except for what was on our PvE equipment.

For a true baseline, a lvl 1 or 'fresh from coldharbor' lvl 3 would be ideal, but they wouldn't have siphoning attacks. I suppose a freshly respec'd Nightblade of high enough level with setless, traitless armor in white enchants would be best in this case, but I'm not respecing. Of course, I could run the numbers to get more exacting variables, but that's a good bit of work. And it would also require testing with sets such as stygian that we don't currently posess, and did not include for the purposes of this test.

Also, I'm sorry for turning this blocking thread into a SA thread for a bit... It was not my intention.

Shunravi wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Block casting is abused by
1. Dk;s - a passive that returns stamina per use of any earth skill
2. Night blades- siphoning 10% chance to return stam and magicka.

Its not block casting because everyone runs outa of stamina. However those things mentioned above, allow your to serious milk blocking for a longtime. L2P btw.

Siphoning is OP... just you forgot, the 22% less damage... lolchemicals

It's more like 10%, and you don't have to wory about regen or reduction gear. You can build straight damage and still sit above softcap with it on. It essentially is a toggle for insane burst

I thought siphoning works with light or heavy attacks... therefore impossible to use while block casting...

Yes please ZOS, block is such a problem for me. I can't 2 shot some people in PvP just because of that stupid mechanic called blocking.
Actually, can you just get rid of it please? It would save me knowing how to play my class to beat a blocking build.

Sorry ZOS, you'll have to re-program the whole PvE mechanics as a side effect, but you know, we needs to kill a turtle DK in PvP and something needs to be done.
Oh, and the problem is obviously not the DK, or myself (ha! me?).
No, no, problem is blocking.

Please remove blocking and dumb down anything in game that is not pure DPS. It's only fair, since that's the way I play.

Just use weapon swing and drain their stamina. Actually having to block eats through stamina, and your stats recharge if you aren't using any skills. If you use siphon skills your health goes up even faster. Wait till they stop pussing around and then lay down the hammer and move on.

Or if you're a sorc like me just tele out and range them down.

Prothwata wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

S&B is *** in pvp, lets be real. There is a reason so many people flock to it while wearing light armor. Dont even try to lie here either, because the mitigation is just unreal and the bonus from light armor is even greater with the ability to block cast (broken mechanic).

since they want this game to be a rock paper scissors method, we need more ways to drain stamina faster. The solution is simple and will kill two birds one stone. The first bird is infinite blocking and taking laughable damage (unless jumped by 10+ people).

1) Make frost drain stamina and make lightning drain magicka. This adds risk vs reward to BOTH S&B users and staff users.

2) Doing the above will make fire not as appealing as it is since currently it is the go to staff (i use lightning screw fire unless on my fire mage). Maybe it will make it so people use fire and a different element as off weapon.

@ZOS this idea is something you should look into doing seriously. the snare from frost is a joke and the damage reduction from lightning is laughable. Not everyone wants to run caltrops just to drain stamina on perma block casters.

My idea is friendly for everyone.

Really like the ice/shock idea...

Very Elderscrolls.

Me like.

Gorthax wrote: »

S&B is *** in pvp, lets be real. There is a reason so many people flock to it while wearing light armor. Dont even try to lie here either, because the mitigation is just unreal and the bonus from light armor is even greater with the ability to block cast (broken mechanic).

since they want this game to be a rock paper scissors method, we need more ways to drain stamina faster. The solution is simple and will kill two birds one stone. The first bird is infinite blocking and taking laughable damage (unless jumped by 10+ people).

1) Make frost drain stamina and make lightning drain magicka. This adds risk vs reward to BOTH S&B users and staff users.

2) Doing the above will make fire not as appealing as it is since currently it is the go to staff (i use lightning screw fire unless on my fire mage). Maybe it will make it so people use fire and a different element as off weapon.

@ZOS this idea is something you should look into doing seriously. the snare from frost is a joke and the damage reduction from lightning is laughable. Not everyone wants to run caltrops just to drain stamina on perma block casters.

My idea is friendly for everyone.

and i dont use caltrops as a stamina drainer; any player that pays attention will simply leave the radius.

Vaelen wrote: »

Permablocking is getting nerfed bigtime in 1.6. You'll still be able to permablock everything, but you will never gain any ultimate unless you use light attacks, skills don't count to gain ulti anymore unless its like carve or WW abilities.

So what will happen with a full supporter/healer (Templar) who does not use resto-heals but 1h/shield in 1.6? Does it mean no more ultimates at all (except BoL)?

I mean, already, purging and radiant aura do not regenerate any ultimate points at all but they are "much wanted" skills which have to be spammed sometimes (radiant aura every 6-7 seconds, purge even more often).
What's up with full support classes which mostly spam group buffs and use cleanse/purge? How do they regenerate ultimate points?
Is the full supporter/buffer/debuffer the "looser" when it comes to ultimate regen?

Isn't it a major design flaw to have "real supporters" not regenerate ultimates as fast as most Melee/DD-classes just spamming AoE skills with secondary effects!?

Excuse me if I'm wrong, imo skills like purge should regenerate much more ultimate, or I'll never take it again into my skill bar. We already have stress with it cause nobody wants to skill it --> and one of the reasons seems to be: getting no ultimate points at all for it

Domander wrote: »

I just read the title and the OP

my response

Please fix players inability to figure out how to use the combat system in this game.

Block is a really great game mechanic. All kinds of players seem to defeat other players, even ones who block a lot.

You would be better off asking for some sort of debuff attack that makes the target drain extra stamina while blocking, (make shield heavy) instead of whining about the design of the entire mechanic.

Why does the community insist on burying their head in the sand and saying these are not the droids your looking for?

Gorthax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I just read the title and the OP

my response

Please fix players inability to figure out how to use the combat system in this game.

Block is a really great game mechanic. All kinds of players seem to defeat other players, even ones who block a lot.

You would be better off asking for some sort of debuff attack that makes the target drain extra stamina while blocking, (make shield heavy) instead of whining about the design of the entire mechanic.

No the combat system is easy, here let me explain it: Hold block, proceed to cast skills. Or there is the other method which is the go to in pvp. Get a 1H&S and permablock cast. Game system is easy to figure out.

The issue is that while someone permablocks, even if they are not a tank, the damage reduction vs ways around it is out of control. I do not care what people say, those defending this "mechanic" are simply not wanting to have to make any kind of decision other than what gear they want and what skills work good with block casting.

Argue it all day long That is what it boils down to. You want to grab a shield and block all day long in pvp thats fine. The risk vs reward aspect should kick in and make it so you cant use skills while blocking. Sadly, ESO supports block casting.

"permablock"

There is this resource in the game called stamina, players run out of it, especially if they're not set up to tank.

Argue that. all day long.