Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

You're extremely good at two MOST DEMANDED roles as far as dungeon groups go(not the case with Trials because you really only need 1 tank and 1-2 heales for 12 people, but imo that's a question about Trials, not templars). I'm a dps. Do you know the single reason I can't run dungeons whenever I want? No healer/tank. Dps #2 can be found in minutes. Tank and ESPECIALLY healer? Not like they can't be found, but it usually takes a lot longer.

With new dungeons, I cannot heal them no matter how awesome my sorc magicka management is. I've primarily been a sorc healer til like vet 10, now I dps 90% of the time because my heals just aren't enough. I simply don't have enough burst heals to pull the group out with the amount of damage some bosses do now. And I know what I'm talking about - I've healed non vet DSA and COH no death as a sorc. Doable? Yes. Doable a LOT easier with a templar? Also yes.
It's the same with your dps. Doable? Yes. Doable better with other classes? Also yes.

If you want more dps, then I want my own healing skill tree. And stamina management passives for better tanking.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

You're extremely good at two MOST DEMANDED roles as far as dungeon groups go(not the case with Trials because you really only need 1 tank and 1-2 heales for 12 people, but imo that's a question about Trials, not templars). I'm a dps. Do you know the single reason I can't run dungeons whenever I want? No healer/tank. Dps #2 can be found in minutes. Tank and ESPECIALLY healer? Not like they can't be found, but it usually takes a lot longer.

With new dungeons, I cannot heal them no matter how awesome my sorc magicka management is. I've primarily been a sorc healer til like vet 10, now I dps 90% of the time because my heals just aren't enough. I simply don't have enough burst heals to pull the group out with the amount of damage some bosses do now. And I know what I'm talking about - I've healed non vet DSA and COH no death as a sorc. Doable? Yes. Doable a LOT easier with a templar? Also yes.
It's the same with your dps. Doable? Yes. Doable better with other classes? Also yes.

If you want more dps, then I want my own healing skill tree. And stamina management passives for better tanking.

Your complaints aren't logical. Your complaint is essentially: "Instead of making a thread asking for a Breath-of-Life-like ability for Resto Staff like it should have, I'm going to complain that an entire class is excluded from an entire role."

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

You're extremely good at two MOST DEMANDED roles as far as dungeon groups go(not the case with Trials because you really only need 1 tank and 1-2 heales for 12 people, but imo that's a question about Trials, not templars). I'm a dps. Do you know the single reason I can't run dungeons whenever I want? No healer/tank. Dps #2 can be found in minutes. Tank and ESPECIALLY healer? Not like they can't be found, but it usually takes a lot longer.

With new dungeons, I cannot heal them no matter how awesome my sorc magicka management is. I've primarily been a sorc healer til like vet 10, now I dps 90% of the time because my heals just aren't enough. I simply don't have enough burst heals to pull the group out with the amount of damage some bosses do now. And I know what I'm talking about - I've healed non vet DSA and COH no death as a sorc. Doable? Yes. Doable a LOT easier with a templar? Also yes.
It's the same with your dps. Doable? Yes. Doable better with other classes? Also yes.

If you want more dps, then I want my own healing skill tree. And stamina management passives for better tanking.

Your complaints aren't logical. Your complaint is essentially: "Instead of making a thread asking for a Breath-of-Life-like ability for Resto Staff like it should have, I'm going to complain that an entire class is excluded from an entire role."

I'm not complaning? I'm saying your complaint is invalid because you're asking for what other classes do NOT have to make it "fair". That wouldn't be fair, that would be OP. If a class that's hands down best healer and great tank was great dps, then we might as well delete all other classes since everyone is going to reroll templar anyway.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Backlash sucks. Overall. It's terrible. Why?

Because you can only ever have one on a target at a time and it's mechanics are unnecessary and punishing.

Eclipse is literally the worst ability in the game.

heinsjb14_ESO wrote: »

The only thing I dislike about Eclipse (and this is a problem with Piercing Javelin too) is that it doesn't affect every mob you will encounter. Every now and then you will get a monster is too powerful for effect - for non-bosses an example is harvesters; all classes need a warning when a skill mechanic on their bar may not work properly.

Blinding Flashes (of Blinding Light) is great for solo PVE and good for PVP Stamina builds. Always keep it up, avoid standing in the red areas and you have a 50% damage reduction while wrecking mobs/players with a 2-hander.

Solar Flare and it's morphs should probably do fire damage just like Sun Fire.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

heinsjb14_ESO wrote: »

The only thing I dislike about Eclipse (and this is a problem with Piercing Javelin too) is that it doesn't affect every mob you will encounter. Every now and then you will get a monster is too powerful for effect - for non-bosses an example is harvesters; all classes need a warning when a skill mechanic on their bar may not work properly.

Blinding Flashes (of Blinding Light) is great for solo PVE and good for PVP Stamina builds. Always keep it up, avoid standing in the red areas and you have a 50% damage reduction while wrecking mobs/players with a 2-hander.

Solar Flare and it's morphs should probably do fire damage just like Sun Fire.

On the actual topic of DPS I'm going to have come down firmly on the "Templars can't dps their way out of a paper bag" camp. I don't have a huge problem with that. The lack of end game raid content that requires diversity and that can't be smashed by well organised buttonfisting groups in 10 minutes is the problem. Some classic ranged/melee immunity type mechanics wouldn't go astray in this game at times.

Again, then the class description needs to be altered to completely describe the class as a support. Not a viable DPS class.

I don't think many people would be happy with that, nor are people like me happy being lied to that it will be a viable DPS class.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

So why isn't it in the class description? Why when I rolled my main did I read this nowhere? Because it's completely excluded by PUGs as a viable DPSer at end game.

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.

Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.

Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.

And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

So why isn't it in the class description? Why when I rolled my main did I read this nowhere? Because it's completely excluded by PUGs as a viable DPSer at end game.

Because you can use weapons/mage guild/fighters guild/world/etc, to improve the dps of the class.

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.

Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.

Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.

And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.

Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.

This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.

That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.

Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.

Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.

Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan‌, you logic fails you.

This is what @Pmarsico9‌ and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.

I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.

Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.

Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.

Here you want a 3 button combo?

Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus

Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs

Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.

BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.

Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs

When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare

600-750 dps


If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria

2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.

Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.

Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.

And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.

Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.

This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.

That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.

Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.

Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.

Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan‌, you logic fails you.

This is what @Pmarsico9‌ and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.

I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.

Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.

Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.

Here you want a 3 button combo?

Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus

Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs

Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.

BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.

Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs

When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare

600-750 dps


If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria

2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.

The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.

Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.

Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.

Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.

By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.

Good day sir.

So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...

Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...

Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.

Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.

manny254 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.

Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.

Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.

And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.

Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.

This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.

That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.

Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.

Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.

Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan‌, you logic fails you.

This is what @Pmarsico9‌ and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.

I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.

Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.

Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.

Here you want a 3 button combo?

Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus

Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs

Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.

BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.

Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs

When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare

600-750 dps


If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria

2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.

The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.

Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.

Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.

Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.

By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.

Good day sir.

So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...

Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...

Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.

Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.

Simply put:

That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.

It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.

Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.

I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.

Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.

The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.

manny254 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.

Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.

Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?

You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.

Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.

How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?

How many DPS?

How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?

Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?

Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?

EDIT:

See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.

In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?

They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.

*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.

Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.

Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.

You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).

I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).

As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.

Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.

I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).

Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.

How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?

You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?

Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.

And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:

"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."

Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.

The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.

There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?

That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.

With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.

eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.

Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.

Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.

And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.

Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.

This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.

That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.

Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.

Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.

Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan‌, you logic fails you.

This is what @Pmarsico9‌ and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.

I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.

Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.

Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.

Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.

Here you want a 3 button combo?

Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus

Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs

Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.

BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.

Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs

When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare

600-750 dps


If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria

2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.

The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.

Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.

Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.

Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.

By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.

Good day sir.

So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...

Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...

Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.

Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.

Simply put:

That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.

It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.

Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.

I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.

Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.

The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.