Templars: Check the Class forums

Pmarsico9

Why is the forum flooded with Templar issues? Because the class is incredibly screwed up. Some abilities don't work, the class is impotent as a PVE damage dealer, and there's alot of issues with magicka management for the class as a whole.

Yet we've heard nothing. No prospective changes. Even if it's going to be 1.6, is there at least a pass coming? Other classes have screwed up abilities (Shadow Cloak, for example) and I feel it would be extremely prudent at this point to seriously make a pass to balance the metrics and fix a lot of the broken abilities that exist.

Yes, I'd love some solid end-game solo content, but at the same time, there's plenty to do. It just sucks to try to get into any trials run as a Templar who doesn't heal.

Surfinginhawaii

I'm too lousy a player to do trials run but I love my Templar so far.

Sinbaar

Playing a templar too and i love it. in PvP with a bow and a stamina build, enemys nearly get near to me. in PVE he is a full healer, who never runs out of magicka. Literally - never, ever. He is v11 and can heal almost anything (in the archives at the second boss i am the "stand alone" healer - the ultimate is quickly ready and just go...

So i really don't think the Templar is screwed up..

AlexDougherty

I love my Templar too, sure it has issues, mainly with magicka management, but it's my strongest character.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Surfinginhawaii

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

...just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina...

I would love this.

Gyudan

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Surfinginhawaii

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Yeah, wouldn't that be great .

Pmarsico9

Templar as DPSers in PVE are trash. Absolute trash. Their best spec is as far as half of the other three classes. This goes beyond just focused charge. The class needs major help with resource management in PVE DPS, has no viable DPS caster build, and is support in a game where everybody can swap to a resto staff and heal.

They may be the most survivable tanks, however, tanking is a very niche role and the class doesn't have the valuable AOE CC that is so important when this is a game without threat modifiers, just a taunt debuff.

The PVP and healing not withstanding. This is about veteran dungeons, speed runs, and trials. And if any of you are VR12-14 try pugging a slot as a non-healing templar in trials runs.

Beyond that, there's usually, out of the 12 slots, one tank slot, one healer slot, and 10 dps slots. And Templars are almost universally shunned for the dps slots.

This is about exclusion due to pure metric shortcomings because the Dawn's Wrath tree is awful and Backlash is poorly designed in the grand scheme of things.

timidobserver

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

They may be the most survivable tanks, however, tanking is a very niche role and the class doesn't have the valuable AOE CC that is so important when this is a game without threat modifiers, just a taunt debuff.

On the tanking, they are really good in AA and fairly decent in Hel Ra, but I have not been very successful with a Templar tank in Sanctum. Too date I've seen two pretty decent tanks, as far as other trials go, crash and burn in Sanctum. This isn't saying that All Templar are incapable of it, it is just saying that the Templar tanks I've seen try to tank the Mantikora or the serpent image were extremely unsuccessful.

Pmarsico9

timidobserver wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

They may be the most survivable tanks, however, tanking is a very niche role and the class doesn't have the valuable AOE CC that is so important when this is a game without threat modifiers, just a taunt debuff.

On the tanking, they are really good in AA and fairly decent in Hel Ra, but I have no been very successful with a Templar tank in Sanctum. This isn't saying that All Templar are incapable of it, it is just saying that the Templar tanks I've seen try to tank the Mantikora or the serpent image were unsuccessful.

Well until tanking is more than niche, is it really worth talking about? It is entirely niche. Only necessary in very few aspects of the game on a whole and even on a boss-by-boss basis in veteran dungeons and in Craglorn questing/Delves, it's not necessarily needed.

timidobserver

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

They may be the most survivable tanks, however, tanking is a very niche role and the class doesn't have the valuable AOE CC that is so important when this is a game without threat modifiers, just a taunt debuff.

On the tanking, they are really good in AA and fairly decent in Hel Ra, but I have no been very successful with a Templar tank in Sanctum. This isn't saying that All Templar are incapable of it, it is just saying that the Templar tanks I've seen try to tank the Mantikora or the serpent image were unsuccessful.

Well until tanking is more than niche, is it really worth talking about? It is entirely niche. Only necessary in very few aspects of the game on a whole and even on a boss-by-boss basis in veteran dungeons and in Craglorn questing/Delves, it's not necessarily needed.

I was referring more to trials where it is definitely needed at.

Nox_Aeterna

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Which makes perfect sense.

If templars are behind in dps , they better be allowed to be the best possible healers ever.

Otherwise zen better find a way to balance the dps of all classes.

Pmarsico9

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Which makes perfect sense.

If templars are behind in dps , they better be allowed to be the best possible healers ever.

Otherwise zen better find a way to balance the dps of all classes.

Or give resto staff a burst heal and balance the DPS.

Gyudan

Here's how I see the different classes for each possible role in PVE. Feel free to disagree, but I think templars are not that bad.

Templar
- DPS 2/4 (good DPS scores from hybrid builds but not sustained)
- Heal 4/4 (no contest here, best healing abilities even if they need the proper gear for better sustain)
- Tank 3/4 (sturdy, self heals and shields)

Sorcerer
- DPS 3/4 (good sustain and self-heals with surge, but lower DPS score than others because of the lack of DoT, good execute)
- Heal 2/4 (0 class specific abilities, good sustain)
- Tank 2/4 (can increase its armor/spell resist and that's it)

DK
- DPS 4/4 (I don't play DK, just guessing here based on DPS scores)
- Heal 1/4 (not played)
- Tank 4/4 (not played)

Nightblade
- DPS 4/4 (good DoT, high DPS scores, very good execute)
- Heal 3/4 (not as good as templars but effective)
- Tank 3/4 (not played, seems effective in trials though)

Dagoth_Rac

Surfinginhawaii wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

...just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina...

I would love this.

I don't know how useful that would really be. A lot of the Templar problem is sustained single-target DPS against big bosses that need to be taken down as fast as possible.

How useful will Repentance be for that? Unless it is a boss who spawns lots of squishy adds and you have a steady supply of fresh corpses, Repentance will not be too much help.

And you have to waste a skill slot on Repentance when other classes can get magicka back from passives or as a side effect of using other skills.

Also, every tough boss in the Trial/Dungeon would need to be surrounded by adds that are dying a lot. If there is even one boss with no steady stream of corpses in the vicinity, Templar DPS/Resource Management will be no different than it is now. No will want to bring along a non-healing Templar if they can hold their own against 2 bosses in a location but remain a liability at 3 other bosses.

Salacious

FIX MY CLASS ZENIMAX - TEMPLARS NEED FIXING!!!!!!!

SoulScream

Remember back toward release when it was all sorcs saying they are the best healers ever?

Natjur

Wait to spellcrafting is released that gives every class a heal that is on match with Rushed Ceremony. Just hope they also have a spellcrafting version of Reflective Scales, Bolt Escape and Crystal Fragments. Then maybe a templar will be able to do good dps (by using other classes skills)

Dagoth_Rac

The root of the problem is that you cannot buff Templars in a way that buffs their healing. They are already the best healer. So we need to buff Templar DPS and magicka management without it aiding healing.

A couple suggestions:

1). Let Restoring Spirit continue to lower cost of skills by 4%. But for damage-dealing skills, let it return 4% of damage done as magicka. Healing resource management is unchanged but DPS resource management is buffed.

2). A new passive that increases damage by 3% for each Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath skill on their bar. This would directly affect the skills, not be a buff to the spell/weapon power stats to prevent it from buffing healing.

The numbers could of course be adjusted as needed with the final goal being that Templars don't need to match Dragonknights in DPS and they don't need to set speed records, but they can get the job done. They will not roflstomp all the enemies into the ground, but they can perform satisfactorily and not be a liability.

In a game that is so obsessed with DPS and where DPS roles are 75%+ of the roles in endgame PvE, you need to allow every class to perform the DPS role adequately.

Surfinginhawaii

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Surfinginhawaii wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

...just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina...

I would love this.

I don't know how useful that would really be. A lot of the Templar problem is sustained single-target DPS against big bosses that need to be taken down as fast as possible.

How useful will Repentance be for that? Unless it is a boss who spawns lots of squishy adds and you have a steady supply of fresh corpses, Repentance will not be too much help.

And you have to waste a skill slot on Repentance when other classes can get magicka back from passives or as a side effect of using other skills.

Also, every tough boss in the Trial/Dungeon would need to be surrounded by adds that are dying a lot. If there is even one boss with no steady stream of corpses in the vicinity, Templar DPS/Resource Management will be no different than it is now. No will want to bring along a non-healing Templar if they can hold their own against 2 bosses in a location but remain a liability at 3 other bosses.

Good points, I forgot that Repentance only works on corpses, so no dead equals no regeneration.

Pmarsico9

Gyudan wrote: »

Here's how I see the different classes for each possible role in PVE. Feel free to disagree, but I think templars are not that bad.

Templar
- DPS 2/4 (good DPS scores from hybrid builds but not sustained)
- Heal 4/4 (no contest here, best healing abilities even if they need the proper gear for better sustain)
- Tank 3/4 (sturdy, self heals and shields)

Sorcerer
- DPS 3/4 (good sustain and self-heals with surge, but lower DPS score than others because of the lack of DoT, good execute)
- Heal 2/4 (0 class specific abilities, good sustain)
- Tank 2/4 (can increase its armor/spell resist and that's it)

DK
- DPS 4/4 (I don't play DK, just guessing here based on DPS scores)
- Heal 1/4 (not played)
- Tank 4/4 (not played)

Nightblade
- DPS 4/4 (good DoT, high DPS scores, very good execute)
- Heal 3/4 (not as good as templars but effective)
- Tank 3/4 (not played, seems effective in trials though)

Sorcs have an absolutely incredible tanking tool kit simply because they can keep inner rage up and bolt escape all over the place. And Streak, Daedric Tomb, and Negate are all amazing tanking abilities.

They are also amazing PVP healers because they are difficult to OOM with.

DK's are probably the best healers in the game.

Templar magicka management is actually so bad that they aren't as strong as Sorcs as PVP healers. The burst healing is nice, but the incoming damage is generally stronger than that.

Pmarsico9

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The root of the problem is that you cannot buff Templars in a way that buffs their healing. They are already the best healer. So we need to buff Templar DPS and magicka management without it aiding healing.

A couple suggestions:

1). Let Restoring Spirit continue to lower cost of skills by 4%. But for damage-dealing skills, let it return 4% of damage done as magicka. Healing resource management is unchanged but DPS resource management is buffed.

2). A new passive that increases damage by 3% for each Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath skill on their bar. This would directly affect the skills, not be a buff to the spell/weapon power stats to prevent it from buffing healing.

The numbers could of course be adjusted as needed with the final goal being that Templars don't need to match Dragonknights in DPS and they don't need to set speed records, but they can get the job done. They will not roflstomp all the enemies into the ground, but they can perform satisfactorily and not be a liability.

In a game that is so obsessed with DPS and where DPS roles are 75%+ of the roles in endgame PvE, you need to allow every class to perform the DPS role adequately.

These aren't bad, but I think this needs tweaked.

Illuminate is either broken or bad. Change that to "You gain 25/50% of damaging ability costs back when you critically strike."

Beyond that, Purifying Light is a terrible Morph that is worthless and should be an instant cast DoT so Templars aren't tied so tightly to hard casting.

Eclipse doesn't work and needs swapped with something useful, preferably something that deals damage and has a melee supporting morph and a ranged caster supporting morph.

And lastly, for tanking, Blinding Light needs to be an AoE CC similar to talons baseline and then needs to provide additional utility through its morphs.

I find it fascinating that people think it's some great asset that Templar's can heal without a resto staff equipped, when that tree largely sucks aside from Ritual and Rushed Ceremony.

And we could also factor in that it's not hard to spec Mutagen and have a Resto Staff equipped in your second slot............

I don't agree with flat damage buffs simply because there's so much broken here. Focused Charge is useless and Puncturing Sweep, Dark Flare, and Backlash all tie up your character for a long period of time.

oldRagespell

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Which makes perfect sense.

If templars are behind in dps , they better be allowed to be the best possible healers ever.

Otherwise zen better find a way to balance the dps of all classes.

They are. Nothing to see here, move along people.

Pmarsico9

Ragespell wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Which makes perfect sense.

If templars are behind in dps , they better be allowed to be the best possible healers ever.

Otherwise zen better find a way to balance the dps of all classes.

They are. Nothing to see here, move along people.

Yep, it's completely fine that they can't get a slot in end-game PVE because the single healing slot in those runs is a guaranteed slot for them and that's all that matters.

Are you serious? Really? Let's exclude an entire class from being able to DPS in PVE because they can heal without a resto staff.............that's insane.

AriBoh

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

1). Let Restoring Spirit continue to lower cost of skills by 4%. But for damage-dealing skills, let it return 4% of damage done as magicka. Healing resource management is unchanged but DPS resource management is buffed.
.

Yes. Yes. This. This. Do it do it now ZoS.

Pmarsico9

Any updates at all? Anything?

Darklord_Tiberius

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Templar magicka management is actually so bad that they aren't as strong as Sorcs as PVP healers. The burst healing is nice, but the incoming damage is generally stronger than that.

I LOL @ this. You clearly have never played with good PVPers or else you are just utterly horrible playing your class. Templar healers are the strongest healers in PVP and I know this from experience; much much much more experience than you.

Magdalina

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Why is the forum flooded with Templar issues? Because the class is incredibly screwed up. Some abilities don't work, the class is impotent as a PVE damage dealer, and there's alot of issues with magicka management for the class as a whole.

Yet we've heard nothing. No prospective changes. Even if it's going to be 1.6, is there at least a pass coming? Other classes have screwed up abilities (Shadow Cloak, for example) and I feel it would be extremely prudent at this point to seriously make a pass to balance the metrics and fix a lot of the broken abilities that exist.

Yes, I'd love some solid end-game solo content, but at the same time, there's plenty to do. It just sucks to try to get into any trials run as a Templar who doesn't heal.

Uh, I don't actually have a templar, but some good friends of mine play those. Seeing the number of people complain about templar dps, I came to same conclusion as you - it just isn't fair...until I played my own class some more and saw more of what templar can do. You can't dps as well as other classes. But if you think about it, it actually makes sense because you can heal better than any other class and you make amazing, immortal tanks with occasional off heal bonus. You're great at 2 roles out of 3.

As a sorc, I can't(or barely can) tank and I'll never be as good a healer as a good templar. So I'm actually more or less restricted to one role in endgame PvE.

Pmarsico9

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Why is the forum flooded with Templar issues? Because the class is incredibly screwed up. Some abilities don't work, the class is impotent as a PVE damage dealer, and there's alot of issues with magicka management for the class as a whole.

Yet we've heard nothing. No prospective changes. Even if it's going to be 1.6, is there at least a pass coming? Other classes have screwed up abilities (Shadow Cloak, for example) and I feel it would be extremely prudent at this point to seriously make a pass to balance the metrics and fix a lot of the broken abilities that exist.

Yes, I'd love some solid end-game solo content, but at the same time, there's plenty to do. It just sucks to try to get into any trials run as a Templar who doesn't heal.

Uh, I don't actually have a templar, but some good friends of mine play those. Seeing the number of people complain about templar dps, I came to same conclusion as you - it just isn't fair...until I played my own class some more and saw more of what templar can do. You can't dps as well as other classes. But if you think about it, it actually makes sense because you can heal better than any other class and you make amazing, immortal tanks with occasional off heal bonus. You're great at 2 roles out of 3.

As a sorc, I can't(or barely can) tank and I'll never be as good a healer as a good templar. So I'm actually more or less restricted to one role in endgame PvE.

There's tons more DPS slots than Healer slots in group content.

It doesn't make sense because while Templars are great burst healers, they aren't anywhere near as good at sustained due to how expensive spells are.

And tanking in this game is entirely niche. And any of the four classes are good at it. But since tanks don't have massively more durability than DPS and usually can't heal as well as a dps can by swapping to a resto staff, they end up being more of a luxury.

BugCollector

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Templar as DPSers in PVE are trash. Absolute trash. Their best spec is as far as half of the other three classes. This goes beyond just focused charge. The class needs major help with resource management in PVE DPS, has no viable DPS caster build, and is support in a game where everybody can swap to a resto staff and heal.

They may be the most survivable tanks, however, tanking is a very niche role and the class doesn't have the valuable AOE CC that is so important when this is a game without threat modifiers, just a taunt debuff.

The PVP and healing not withstanding. This is about veteran dungeons, speed runs, and trials. And if any of you are VR12-14 try pugging a slot as a non-healing templar in trials runs.

Beyond that, there's usually, out of the 12 slots, one tank slot, one healer slot, and 10 dps slots. And Templars are almost universally shunned for the dps slots.

This is about exclusion due to pure metric shortcomings because the Dawn's Wrath tree is awful and Backlash is poorly designed in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed! And I've put the most important section in bold.