Templars: Check the Class forums

Iduyenn

I played as a heal and liked it, played as a dd and made good dmg (not awsome) and finally i tank and MAN that makes fun. I love it.

Good, there are some issues, but if spot is finaly fixed, i need very little to be happy.

Pmarsico9

Iduyenn wrote: »

I played as a heal and liked it, played as a dd and made good dmg (not awsome) and finally i tank and MAN that makes fun. I love it.

Good, there are some issues, but if spot is finaly fixed, i need very little to be happy.

There's not a question if the class is fun or not. The issue is that Dawn's Wrath has some very poor design to it and hardcasting in this game (Backlash/Dark Flare) is awful. The fact that it does terrible damage takes precedence, though.

Natjur

Besides Nova, what skills do templar's use from the Dawn's Wrath skill line.
Most use Crushing shock instead of Sun Fire as the Destruction Staff passives are better. And use Elemental Drain instead of Solar Flare

Backlash casting time is too long as its damage is capped so low
Eclispe is not worth the time on the skill bar

Blinding Light is ok if your tanking and have a spare slot

Except for the ultimate, most would not notice if this whole skill tree was removed

Drasn

Have vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs on your bar. Learn to light/medium weave. Wear some sexy gear. Laugh when sorcs realize that they are actually the lowest DPS class in the game.

Pmarsico9

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Have vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs on your bar. Learn to light/medium weave. Wear some sexy gear. Laugh when sorcs realize that they are actually the lowest DPS class in the game.

Not true at all. Templar DPS is awful. Most PUGS won't even take them into trials as DPS.

Kryborn

Just out of curiosity, how many of you are using Stamina-based skills to help improve on the the DPS sustainability? There's Silver Shards, as well as many weapon skills. I'm only 43, so I'm kind of curious as to your experiments that you've carried out. Thanks.

Pmarsico9

Kryborn wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how many of you are using Stamina-based skills to help improve on the the DPS sustainability? There's Silver Shards, as well as many weapon skills. I'm only 43, so I'm kind of curious as to your experiments that you've carried out. Thanks.

There are viable stamina builds. But there's only one class passive that's weaker than the other three classes in supporting them. Two hander and bow seems to work the best, with radiant aura providing a lot of stamina regen.

Drasn

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Have vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs on your bar. Learn to light/medium weave. Wear some sexy gear. Laugh when sorcs realize that they are actually the lowest DPS class in the game.

Not true at all. Templar DPS is awful. Most PUGS won't even take them into trials as DPS.

Thats because instead of learning to DPS on their Templar. most Templars come and whine on the forums about wanting easy mode.

The truth is magicka Templars aren't going to reach magicka DK levels of DPS. Yet, Templars are on par with Funnel Health and Crushing Shock Nightblades. To top it off Templars are easily able to out-DPS Crushing Shock Sorcs.

When you figure in that Bow, Duel Weild, and Two-Hand (all available to Templars) are also able to put up numbers that make "LOLHERPDERP I R CRUSHING SHOCK" look bad (DK's exempt), hopefully you realize that Templars aren't in a horrible place right now.

Be thankful you aren't a negate-monkey.

Kryborn

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

The truth is magicka Templars aren't going to reach magicka DK levels of DPS. Yet, Templars are on par with Funnel Health and Crushing Shock Nightblades. To top it off Templars are easily able to out-DPS Crushing Shock Sorcs.

When you figure in that Bow, Duel Weild, and Two-Hand (all available to Templars) are also able to put up numbers that make "LOLHERPDERP I R CRUSHING SHOCK" look bad (DK's exempt), hopefully you realize that Templars aren't in a horrible place right now.

My new favorite skill since I've leveled in The Rift - Silver Shards. That skill is so much fun, especially in that zone, which seems to be the homeplace of Daedra and Undead. And the best part is that can continue to take pop shots is longer fights cause I actually have Stamina.

I think I"m also going to change from Desto Staff to Bow for range, and Dual Wield for close range AoE. But it's all a work in progress. Just got to see what works and what doesn't.

AlexDougherty

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Have vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs on your bar. Learn to light/medium weave. Wear some sexy gear. Laugh when sorcs realize that they are actually the lowest DPS class in the game.

Not true at all. Templar DPS is awful. Most PUGS won't even take them into trials as DPS.

Thats because instead of learning to DPS on their Templar. most Templars come and whine on the forums about wanting easy mode.

The truth is magicka Templars aren't going to reach magicka DK levels of DPS. Yet, Templars are on par with Funnel Health and Crushing Shock Nightblades. To top it off Templars are easily able to out-DPS Crushing Shock Sorcs.

When you figure in that Bow, Duel Weild, and Two-Hand (all available to Templars) are also able to put up numbers that make "LOLHERPDERP I R CRUSHING SHOCK" look bad (DK's exempt), hopefully you realize that Templars aren't in a horrible place right now.

Be thankful you aren't a negate-monkey.

I have a sword and shield Templar, he aint weak, he's stronger than my DK, and my DK aint weak either. My Templar takes a smidge long to kill a boss, but he's never in danger of dying, unlike my DK, or my Sorc, or my Nightblade. And when he hits with biting jabs he's not that far behind the other DPSers.

Drasn

AlexDougherty wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Have vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs on your bar. Learn to light/medium weave. Wear some sexy gear. Laugh when sorcs realize that they are actually the lowest DPS class in the game.

Not true at all. Templar DPS is awful. Most PUGS won't even take them into trials as DPS.

Thats because instead of learning to DPS on their Templar. most Templars come and whine on the forums about wanting easy mode.

The truth is magicka Templars aren't going to reach magicka DK levels of DPS. Yet, Templars are on par with Funnel Health and Crushing Shock Nightblades. To top it off Templars are easily able to out-DPS Crushing Shock Sorcs.

When you figure in that Bow, Duel Weild, and Two-Hand (all available to Templars) are also able to put up numbers that make "LOLHERPDERP I R CRUSHING SHOCK" look bad (DK's exempt), hopefully you realize that Templars aren't in a horrible place right now.

Be thankful you aren't a negate-monkey.

I have a sword and shield Templar, he aint weak, he's stronger than my DK, and my DK aint weak either. My Templar takes a smidge long to kill a boss, but he's never in danger of dying, unlike my DK, or my Sorc, or my Nightblade. And when he hits with biting jabs he's not that far behind the other DPSers.

I was comparing raw DPS capabilities with concerns to trials in response to the post that I quoted.

I never said Templars were weak. I leveled up my Templar back when VR content was "hard" and the level cap was V10... I understand how nice Templars have it now.

Drasn

Kryborn wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

The truth is magicka Templars aren't going to reach magicka DK levels of DPS. Yet, Templars are on par with Funnel Health and Crushing Shock Nightblades. To top it off Templars are easily able to out-DPS Crushing Shock Sorcs.

When you figure in that Bow, Duel Weild, and Two-Hand (all available to Templars) are also able to put up numbers that make "LOLHERPDERP I R CRUSHING SHOCK" look bad (DK's exempt), hopefully you realize that Templars aren't in a horrible place right now.

My new favorite skill since I've leveled in The Rift - Silver Shards. That skill is so much fun, especially in that zone, which seems to be the homeplace of Daedra and Undead. And the best part is that can continue to take pop shots is longer fights cause I actually have Stamina.

I think I"m also going to change from Desto Staff to Bow for range, and Dual Wield for close range AoE. But it's all a work in progress. Just got to see what works and what doesn't.

Best thing to do is experiment with everything to find the playstyle that you like... then tweak it to make it viable in endgame content(if that's your thing.) You will find some things that work and some that don't.

Anazasi

Seriously there are a lot of issues here. But the one that is for certain the primary issue is sustainable DPS. There are ways to increase your heals that no matter what comes down the road Templars will be superior to. There are ways to increase DPS but its not sustainable. There are ways to increase your tankage for certain but the issue than becomes stat maintenance. If Templars are to become the multiclass of ESO DPS is the primary issue. I can't imagine not having a Templar in any raid or trial simply because they bring the support and power that every group needs. Perhaps the main issue is players want to be the ALL of a group and never the person helping hold up the group.

Magdalina

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Why is the forum flooded with Templar issues? Because the class is incredibly screwed up. Some abilities don't work, the class is impotent as a PVE damage dealer, and there's alot of issues with magicka management for the class as a whole.

Yet we've heard nothing. No prospective changes. Even if it's going to be 1.6, is there at least a pass coming? Other classes have screwed up abilities (Shadow Cloak, for example) and I feel it would be extremely prudent at this point to seriously make a pass to balance the metrics and fix a lot of the broken abilities that exist.

Yes, I'd love some solid end-game solo content, but at the same time, there's plenty to do. It just sucks to try to get into any trials run as a Templar who doesn't heal.

Uh, I don't actually have a templar, but some good friends of mine play those. Seeing the number of people complain about templar dps, I came to same conclusion as you - it just isn't fair...until I played my own class some more and saw more of what templar can do. You can't dps as well as other classes. But if you think about it, it actually makes sense because you can heal better than any other class and you make amazing, immortal tanks with occasional off heal bonus. You're great at 2 roles out of 3.

As a sorc, I can't(or barely can) tank and I'll never be as good a healer as a good templar. So I'm actually more or less restricted to one role in endgame PvE.

There's tons more DPS slots than Healer slots in group content.

It doesn't make sense because while Templars are great burst healers, they aren't anywhere near as good at sustained due to how expensive spells are.

And tanking in this game is entirely niche. And any of the four classes are good at it. But since tanks don't have massively more durability than DPS and usually can't heal as well as a dps can by swapping to a resto staff, they end up being more of a luxury.

Not entirely right because there's also a ton more dps willing to go than healers, unless we're talking Trials. Whenever I wanna run a dungeon, getting dps is always easy, but tank and especially healer...g'luck with those. Espeically seeing as with new dungeons "healer" is more or less resticted to "templar" for most of them. No way you can't find a dungeon group as a templar healer.

That thing about "only burst healing" is not true. Yes, templar have magicka trouble. No, it can be solved with the right sets and good magicka management, and once you solve them, no one will ever compare to you in healing. I see templar healers SPAMMING Breath of life when we get in a pinch a LOT. It's possible. Besides, you can and should still use Healing Springs when possible as a templar because low cost - however, unlike me, you aren't limited to it as your only good heal.

Tanks don't have more durability than dps? A good tank can keep boss busy entirely by himself, without needing any extra heals or other help, giving the group time to dps safely/res people/focus ads or whatever. It isn't actually obvious til some of the harder fights, but when it comes to that, it make a world of difference.

Pmarsico9

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

Magdalina

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Pmarsico9

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

Drasn

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

You play with bad templars, it's as simple as that. I laid out in an earlier post the abilities that are used to DPS on a magicka templar... they are all templar class abilities.

Would I PUG a templar DPS? No I wouldn't because then you end up with some nub wearing heavy armor, sporting sword and board, that spam casts dark flare like it's going out of style.

A magicka Templar's DPS rotation is harder to manage than a DK's or NB's rotation, primarily because one of the abilities is ground target and another is a channel. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Good templars are doing it.

And yes, it is sustainable for dungeons and trials... the same way a DK, NB, and Sorc sustain their DPS in longer fights... potions and spell sym.

Natjur

As thomas.k.grayb14_ESO said The DPS for a templar is vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs. (and in that order so all the passives trigger)

But most templars went down the other morph tree for soloing (reflective Light and Puncturing Sweep)and will not change it to get more dps.

Biting jabs means you are in melee range and have to do a lot of moving on boss fights. Blazing spears is hard to always keep the boss in the DOT (which procs Burning Light)

Its doable but not easy mode like some other classes. Most dungeons runs prefer everyone to be range except the tank and some think this is the only way it should be. With a little bit of practice with those three templar skills and some weaving in light\medium attacks. Templar DPS is not that bad, just harder to pull off.

Pmarsico9

Natjur wrote: »

As thomas.k.grayb14_ESO said The DPS for a templar is vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs. (and in that order so all the passives trigger)

But most templars went down the other morph tree for soloing (reflective Light and Puncturing Sweep)and will not change it to get more dps.

Biting jabs means you are in melee range and have to do a lot of moving on boss fights. Blazing spears is hard to always keep the boss in the DOT (which procs Burning Light)

Its doable but not easy mode like some other classes. Most dungeons runs prefer everyone to be range except the tank and some think this is the only way it should be. With a little bit of practice with those three templar skills and some weaving in light\medium attacks. Templar DPS is not that bad, just harder to pull off.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

You play with bad templars, it's as simple as that. I laid out in an earlier post the abilities that are used to DPS on a magicka templar... they are all templar class abilities.

Would I PUG a templar DPS? No I wouldn't because then you end up with some nub wearing heavy armor, sporting sword and board, that spam casts dark flare like it's going out of style.

A magicka Templar's DPS rotation is harder to manage than a DK's or NB's rotation, primarily because one of the abilities is ground target and another is a channel. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Good templars are doing it.

And yes, it is sustainable for dungeons and trials... the same way a DK, NB, and Sorc sustain their DPS in longer fights... potions and spell sym.

There were no tweaks to Templar DPS scaling that suddenly made this viable.

You guys don't know what you are talking about. Nothing has been buffed or altered to make Templar casting DPS suddenly work. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking to fix Templar DPS.

Because they are:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136047/discussion-templars-dawns-wrath-skill-line/p1

You guys are perpetuating nonsense: The only viable Templar DPS build doesn't use any of those abilities.

The only class abilities it uses is Radiant Aura/Repentance and Vamp's Bane:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/crusader-templar-2h-pve-melee-dps-800-1400-single-target/

And even then, his claims are relative nonsense since the only 1K+ Templar that I know of is Khivas using a similar build.

The math proves ranged caster builds don't work and I've personally done testing on multiple rotations purely at range (which is almost mandatory in this game due to how heavily melee is punished by boss mechanics) and any backlash-based build will not crack more than 750-800. And that's in full VR 14 purple gear, 7 pieces of light armor, and using a Destruction staff with over 65% critical strike, and using spell damage/spell crit pots on CD with near-perfect animation cancelling and 0 downtime on Vamp's Bane's DoT.

I won't even get into Dark Flare aside from the fact that the ability is a complete and total DPS loss for pure-ranged-magicka-based Templars.

It's not about easy mode, it's about scaling and it's about the fact that the class doesn't and has major magicka issues on longer periods of time as well as stupid clipping and the inability of multiple Backlashes to exist on a target.

It's math. It's not conjecture. It mathematically doesn't work.

Drasn

Natjur wrote: »

As thomas.k.grayb14_ESO said The DPS for a templar is vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs. (and in that order so all the passives trigger)

But most templars went down the other morph tree for soloing (reflective Light and Puncturing Sweep)and will not change it to get more dps.

Biting jabs means you are in melee range and have to do a lot of moving on boss fights. Blazing spears is hard to always keep the boss in the DOT (which procs Burning Light)

Its doable but not easy mode like some other classes. Most dungeons runs prefer everyone to be range except the tank and some think this is the only way it should be. With a little bit of practice with those three templar skills and some weaving in light\medium attacks. Templar DPS is not that bad, just harder to pull off.

That was my point in further posts, Templars are capable of pulling good DPS(more than a sorc is capable of atm). It takes more skill/better timing/positioning than a NB or DK but it's not impossible or really that hard once you get the hang of it.

Considering Templars are the the ez mode healer, can fit just as well into a tank slot as NB or DK, and can DPS well if they are played properly to fit that role Templars are by no means the horrible class that people try to make them out to be.

There just seems to be a lot hate for the class because of issues that arose early in the games life and complaints by people that read too many negative posts rather than adjust their gameplay for the content they complain they can't do.

Drasn

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Natjur wrote: »

As thomas.k.grayb14_ESO said The DPS for a templar is vampires bane, blazing spear, and biting jabs. (and in that order so all the passives trigger)

But most templars went down the other morph tree for soloing (reflective Light and Puncturing Sweep)and will not change it to get more dps.

Biting jabs means you are in melee range and have to do a lot of moving on boss fights. Blazing spears is hard to always keep the boss in the DOT (which procs Burning Light)

Its doable but not easy mode like some other classes. Most dungeons runs prefer everyone to be range except the tank and some think this is the only way it should be. With a little bit of practice with those three templar skills and some weaving in light\medium attacks. Templar DPS is not that bad, just harder to pull off.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

You play with bad templars, it's as simple as that. I laid out in an earlier post the abilities that are used to DPS on a magicka templar... they are all templar class abilities.

Would I PUG a templar DPS? No I wouldn't because then you end up with some nub wearing heavy armor, sporting sword and board, that spam casts dark flare like it's going out of style.

A magicka Templar's DPS rotation is harder to manage than a DK's or NB's rotation, primarily because one of the abilities is ground target and another is a channel. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Good templars are doing it.

And yes, it is sustainable for dungeons and trials... the same way a DK, NB, and Sorc sustain their DPS in longer fights... potions and spell sym.

There were no tweaks to Templar DPS scaling that suddenly made this viable.

You guys don't know what you are talking about. Nothing has been buffed or altered to make Templar casting DPS suddenly work. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking to fix Templar DPS.

Because they are:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136047/discussion-templars-dawns-wrath-skill-line/p1

You guys are perpetuating nonsense: The only viable Templar DPS build doesn't use any of those abilities.

The only class abilities it uses is Radiant Aura/Repentance and Vamp's Bane:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/crusader-templar-2h-pve-melee-dps-800-1400-single-target/

And even then, his claims are relative nonsense since the only 1K+ Templar that I know of is Khivas using a similar build.

The math proves ranged caster builds don't work and I've personally done testing on multiple rotations purely at range (which is almost mandatory in this game due to how heavily melee is punished by boss mechanics) and any backlash-based build will not crack more than 750-800. And that's in full VR 14 purple gear, 7 pieces of light armor, and using a Destruction staff with over 65% critical strike, and using spell damage/spell crit pots on CD with near-perfect animation cancelling and 0 downtime on Vamp's Bane's DoT.

I won't even get into Dark Flare aside from the fact that the ability is a complete and total DPS loss for pure-ranged-magicka-based Templars.

It's not about easy mode, it's about scaling and it's about the fact that the class doesn't and has major magicka issues on longer periods of time as well as stupid clipping and the inability of multiple Backlashes to exist on a target.

It's math. It's not conjecture. It mathematically doesn't work.

Looked at your link claiming they are working on templar DPS... that is players talking about changes they want, nothing stating that they are working on templar DPS.

I'll see if I can put together a video for you of Templar DPS using those abilities. As far as 1k+ I can do that in my healing gear with those abilites.

Pmarsico9

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Looked at your link claiming they are working on templar DPS... that is players talking about changes they want, nothing stating that they are working on templar DPS.

I'll see if I can put together a video for you of Templar DPS using those abilities. As far as 1k+ I can do that in my healing gear with those abilites.

And we have a troll. What happened to *** you off so badly? A Templar killed you in PVP?

Because as an ardent theorycrafter, this is straight up impossible. Even in full yellow gear.

Drasn

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Looked at your link claiming they are working on templar DPS... that is players talking about changes they want, nothing stating that they are working on templar DPS.

I'll see if I can put together a video for you of Templar DPS using those abilities. As far as 1k+ I can do that in my healing gear with those abilites.

And we have a troll. What happened to *** you off so badly? A Templar killed you in PVP?

Because as an ardent theorycrafter, this is straight up impossible. Even in full yellow gear.

I am a templar since day 1, maybe you should retire from theorycrafting.

Edit:
Also, just because you don't agree with what I and others have said is possible and being done doesn't mean that I am a troll.

Pmarsico9

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Looked at your link claiming they are working on templar DPS... that is players talking about changes they want, nothing stating that they are working on templar DPS.

I'll see if I can put together a video for you of Templar DPS using those abilities. As far as 1k+ I can do that in my healing gear with those abilites.

And we have a troll. What happened to *** you off so badly? A Templar killed you in PVP?

Because as an ardent theorycrafter, this is straight up impossible. Even in full yellow gear.

I am a templar since day 1, maybe you should retire from theorycrafting.

Edit:
Also, just because you don't agree with what I and others have said is possible and being done doesn't mean that I am a troll.

You have people that aren't VR14 agreeing with you that are still leveling and have never stepped foot in a trial talking about DPS at all and, to top it off your weighing in that "Templars are fine L2P" is the issue when even at 1K DPS Templars are at half what Nightblades and DKs SUSTAIN.

First off: The fact that you feel you are some master and the issue is entirely L2P makes you a troll.

Secondly, the fact that there's tons of Templars on these very forums negating everything you are saying is yet another example of being a troll.

And lastly, not a single other class is denied slots in trials PUGs as DPS. None. This is not anecdotal. This is something that happens.

So if you want to sit somewhere and spam the good word in zone chat and change the mind of the masses who form these PUGs then go for it. But they will also add that you are a troll. Because what you are stating are out and out lies.

Magdalina

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

So go as tank or heals? These are always in demand for vet dungeons. Unlike sorc healers and tanks, for example. You make it sound like if everyone else can just do any of the 3 roles perfectly, but that's not true.

The whole "play the way you want" idea is obviously not entirely true, but making it sound like purely templar problem is kind of selfish. You guys are great at 2 most demanded dungeon roles. I'm only really good at ONE.

G0ku

Stating a templar can out-dps a sorcerer is just not credible.

Even if it´s possible you still have to consider the amount of skill, effort and practice you would need to get to that point. If you put the same effort in creating a tanking sorc or nightblade im sure you also can get on par with templar tanks.

Why are there so many DPS and very few tanks and healers - because nearly everybody wants to go DPS and not support. The way the templar class was advertised when the game started was suggesting you also could go DPS just as the other classes.

I didn´t get invited in any trial until I started joining guilds who do it. I first had to proove myself to get to do these. And that´s the major imbalance, a DK, Sorc or NB will eventually get kicked out if the DPS sucks but doesn´t have to proove anything before. That´s why templars feel unloved.

Point of discussion also could be if they should change something about the way trials work or if they should give Dawn´s Wrath a rework but one of these two things should happen imho.

Pmarsico9

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Seriously the amount of misinformation is ridiculous. Nightblades are holding 2K DPS sustained as casters and stamina based in trials right now.
DK's aren't far behind.

Anybody telling me there's no issue with Templars when you see "LFM AA run" and you shoot the guy a tell to get into the group and he tells you that he already has a healer and you can't come because of your class doesn't understand that it's metric imbalances.

Because this happens daily. I don't even inquire anymore.

They prefer DK tanks and the one thing they always have is their healer who is geared to hell. You guys don't get it, you get excluded.

I'm not going to suddenly want to play melee or be some holy archer thing that doesn't make thematic sense to me at all because some guy tells me to L2P because I'm doing it wrong.

I wanted to tank, that's out because tanking is essentially talons CC, and I don't want to have to go level medium armor and stamina based things I never wanted to play.

The Magicka based builds scale better, they have better AoE, and their weapons scale better, flat out. The Class simply doesn't have anything close to the passives of others nor do they have the abilities to support them.

It's that simple. Templar caster dps can't sustain crap and do crap damage anyway.

"Oh but you can heal without a resto staff." Yes and everybody else can heal with one and have class damage abilities to put on that same bar with those heals.

It's not about easy mode. It's about math.

That only applies to Trials. Which are like...0.001% of the game, and which I do find...unbalanced, to put it one way.

If Trials are so important for you, then I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO the problem is more with the Trials makeup than that of templar class.

That story is completely different with other group content.

Except that their DPS sucks in Veteran Dungeon speed runs too.

It's noticeable. I don't know what level you are, or what your experience is, but go do veteran spindle clutch with 2 Templar DPS with the dungeon scaled up to VR12.

The game may have been advertised as being about more than metrics, but there's no way around it: Metrical imbalances are severe and exist. The content doesn't change that. DPS potentials are NB/DK and Sorcs and Good Templars maxing out in full stamina builds at half of that of the NB/DK.

This is not a small issue. People want to paint it that way, fine, it's not good design any way you shake it.

So go as tank or heals? These are always in demand for vet dungeons. Unlike sorc healers and tanks, for example. You make it sound like if everyone else can just do any of the 3 roles perfectly, but that's not true.

The whole "play the way you want" idea is obviously not entirely true, but making it sound like purely templar problem is kind of selfish. You guys are great at 2 most demanded dungeon roles. I'm only really good at ONE.

Sorc tanks are bad? That's news. Very few play tanks, but they are largely considered the best tanks after DKs since they are the only class with CC even close to talons. Try it.

Iduyenn

Ok, i am new to tanking. And i did a DK tank before.
Things like Dragonclaw and in Raids the tank ultimate make the DK to NR1.
I take the caltrops to gain initial aggro. That works.
Hel Rah first boss. I didn`t find a group yet, who wanted me to stand still in the -35% phase. I had to run.
All the DK`s? Just stand there and laugh without even bloking.

DD: Yes, there are Screenshots from Templars with 1,4k dps on first boss in AA. That is good, but boy you have to work it out...
I understand, that it is not easy to make enough dmg, like say... lava whip spam.

But it seems ungrateful to expect from ZOS to make us a perfect Tank, Healer and DD. Take 2 out of tree. Make the Tank work better.

Messy1

Gyudan wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Fix magicka management and Focused Charge, and I think Templars would be in a good place.

Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina (Templars already have lots of ways of restoring health; we don't need another!), and fix the self-imposed stunlock that is Focused Charge, and we'd be fine.

It was in June that ZoS said they had hear the message 'clear and loud' that the Templars needed help in the magicka management department. Nothing has been done since.

Templars are already ahead of all other classes for heals. If ZoS gives them better magicka sustain, nothing will get in the way of templar healers for endgame PVE content.

Yes, we need to be careful Templars are already powerful healers! If they are a little weaker in the other departments it might be okay cause they are such good healers. My templar is super survivable right now so idk what to say.