Templars: Check the Class forums
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manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
Here you want a 3 button combo?
Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs
Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.
BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.
Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs
When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare
600-750 dps
If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria
2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.
The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.
Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.
Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.
Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.
By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.
Good day sir.
So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...
Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...
Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.
Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.
Simply put:
That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.
It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.
Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.
I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.
Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.
The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.
It doesn't matter. The perception is what it is. Very few guilds will openly recruit Templars for anything but healing slots on Trials teams.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have in a very specific gear set is not going to suddenly make PUGs actually take me into Trials as anything but a healer.
Think of it this way: The baseline for Templar DPS is trash. There's little appeal or advantage to taking them and odds are there are going to do less damage than any of the other three classes in that DPS slot.
A DK upgrades his staff to yellow, his DPS may go from 1000 to 1300.
A Templar does so and they are going from 600 to 700. They don't scale as well, they don't have strong base, and you are still ignoring the part that other than Vamp's Bane, nearly every other ability in Dawn's Wrath is a DPS loss.
I am not saying the class does not need some of the skills improved. I am saying that the biggest problem is perception. You are only adding to the problem. You are validating all the people that deny you by not trying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I have spent HOURS trying to make multiple builds work.
"Not trying?" So to you, I'm not trying by not spending hours pugging and healing Veteran Dungeons to farm a what, 1-2% drop rate item set so I can then wear the gear that should enable me to convince people that I can legitimately DPS?
Forget it, you're a troll. I swear, this thread garners more DKs whining about Templars in some veiled attempt to "prove how overpowered Templars would be if they did decent damage" in a completely nonsensical and bizzarro way. I have to say, he's probably the 3rd that I've actually paid attention to that I shouldn't have.
Oh wow you spent hours lol. I am saying that you are not a templar dps you are a templar who complains about not doing dps. If your some how concerned that I am a dk I will screen shot time played on all my characters.
Also pugging is half your problem.- Mojican2 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
Here you want a 3 button combo?
Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs
Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.
BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.
Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs
When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare
600-750 dps
If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria
2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.
The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.
Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.
Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.
Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.
By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.
Good day sir.
So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...
Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...
Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.
Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.
Simply put:
That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.
It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.
Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.
I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.
Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.
The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.
It doesn't matter. The perception is what it is. Very few guilds will openly recruit Templars for anything but healing slots on Trials teams.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have in a very specific gear set is not going to suddenly make PUGs actually take me into Trials as anything but a healer.
Think of it this way: The baseline for Templar DPS is trash. There's little appeal or advantage to taking them and odds are there are going to do less damage than any of the other three classes in that DPS slot.
A DK upgrades his staff to yellow, his DPS may go from 1000 to 1300.
A Templar does so and they are going from 600 to 700. They don't scale as well, they don't have strong base, and you are still ignoring the part that other than Vamp's Bane, nearly every other ability in Dawn's Wrath is a DPS loss.
I am not saying the class does not need some of the skills improved. I am saying that the biggest problem is perception. You are only adding to the problem. You are validating all the people that deny you by not trying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I have spent HOURS trying to make multiple builds work.
"Not trying?" So to you, I'm not trying by not spending hours pugging and healing Veteran Dungeons to farm a what, 1-2% drop rate item set so I can then wear the gear that should enable me to convince people that I can legitimately DPS?
Forget it, you're a troll. I swear, this thread garners more DKs whining about Templars in some veiled attempt to "prove how overpowered Templars would be if they did decent damage" in a completely nonsensical and bizzarro way. I have to say, he's probably the 3rd that I've actually paid attention to that I shouldn't have.
Oh wow you spent hours lol. I am saying that you are not a templar dps you are a templar who complains about not doing dps. If your some how concerned that I am a dk I will screen shot time played on all my characters.
Also pugging is half your problem.
Ok you two cut it out because now this is turning into some sort of awkward pissing contest/one sided debate.
Manny, you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is people can do amazing DPS thanks to the class they chose, whereas Templars are stuck in a rather shitastic rut thanks to the way the class is constructed.
I will say though that I have faith in ZoS and I'm waiting for future changes as to whether or not I will be saying that they can shove it or if I'll be praising them.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!1 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
Here you want a 3 button combo?
Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs
Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.
BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.
Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs
When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare
600-750 dps
If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria
2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.
The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.
Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.
Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.
Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.
By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.
Good day sir.
So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...
Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...
Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.
Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.
Simply put:
That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.
It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.
Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.
I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.
Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.
The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.
It doesn't matter. The perception is what it is. Very few guilds will openly recruit Templars for anything but healing slots on Trials teams.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have in a very specific gear set is not going to suddenly make PUGs actually take me into Trials as anything but a healer.
Think of it this way: The baseline for Templar DPS is trash. There's little appeal or advantage to taking them and odds are there are going to do less damage than any of the other three classes in that DPS slot.
A DK upgrades his staff to yellow, his DPS may go from 1000 to 1300.
A Templar does so and they are going from 600 to 700. They don't scale as well, they don't have strong base, and you are still ignoring the part that other than Vamp's Bane, nearly every other ability in Dawn's Wrath is a DPS loss.
I am not saying the class does not need some of the skills improved. I am saying that the biggest problem is perception. You are only adding to the problem. You are validating all the people that deny you by not trying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I have spent HOURS trying to make multiple builds work.
"Not trying?" So to you, I'm not trying by not spending hours pugging and healing Veteran Dungeons to farm a what, 1-2% drop rate item set so I can then wear the gear that should enable me to convince people that I can legitimately DPS?
Forget it, you're a troll. I swear, this thread garners more DKs whining about Templars in some veiled attempt to "prove how overpowered Templars would be if they did decent damage" in a completely nonsensical and bizzarro way. I have to say, he's probably the 3rd that I've actually paid attention to that I shouldn't have.
Oh wow you spent hours lol. I am saying that you are not a templar dps you are a templar who complains about not doing dps. If your some how concerned that I am a dk I will screen shot time played on all my characters.
Also pugging is half your problem.
There is no PUGging. I don't get taken. There's no guilds that don't have healers for their trials runs already and would bring me "rotationally."
You think I want to PUG? You don't seem to get it. Nobody in their right mind will take a Templar DPS for a slot that can be occupied by a Nightblade, DK, or even Sorc.
Your 1000 DPS claims in a 1-2% drop rate two piece set are behind Sorcs who are around 1.2K and considered low themselves.
Let me ask you something? Why don't you just heal your runs instead of taking a slot better held by somebody who could actually allow your guild to rank? Oh because you selfishly want to DPS on your Templar. OK.......fair enough.0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
Here you want a 3 button combo?
Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs
Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.
BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.
Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs
When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare
600-750 dps
If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria
2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.
The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.
Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.
Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.
Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.
By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.
Good day sir.
So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...
Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...
Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.
Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.
Simply put:
That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.
It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.
Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.
I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.
Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.
The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.
It doesn't matter. The perception is what it is. Very few guilds will openly recruit Templars for anything but healing slots on Trials teams.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have in a very specific gear set is not going to suddenly make PUGs actually take me into Trials as anything but a healer.
Think of it this way: The baseline for Templar DPS is trash. There's little appeal or advantage to taking them and odds are there are going to do less damage than any of the other three classes in that DPS slot.
A DK upgrades his staff to yellow, his DPS may go from 1000 to 1300.
A Templar does so and they are going from 600 to 700. They don't scale as well, they don't have strong base, and you are still ignoring the part that other than Vamp's Bane, nearly every other ability in Dawn's Wrath is a DPS loss.
I am not saying the class does not need some of the skills improved. I am saying that the biggest problem is perception. You are only adding to the problem. You are validating all the people that deny you by not trying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I have spent HOURS trying to make multiple builds work.
"Not trying?" So to you, I'm not trying by not spending hours pugging and healing Veteran Dungeons to farm a what, 1-2% drop rate item set so I can then wear the gear that should enable me to convince people that I can legitimately DPS?
Forget it, you're a troll. I swear, this thread garners more DKs whining about Templars in some veiled attempt to "prove how overpowered Templars would be if they did decent damage" in a completely nonsensical and bizzarro way. I have to say, he's probably the 3rd that I've actually paid attention to that I shouldn't have.
Oh wow you spent hours lol. I am saying that you are not a templar dps you are a templar who complains about not doing dps. If your some how concerned that I am a dk I will screen shot time played on all my characters.
Also pugging is half your problem.
Ok you two cut it out because now this is turning into some sort of awkward pissing contest/one sided debate.
Manny, you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is people can do amazing DPS thanks to the class they chose, whereas Templars are stuck in a rather shitastic rut thanks to the way the class is constructed.
I will say though that I have faith in ZoS and I'm waiting for future changes as to whether or not I will be saying that they can shove it or if I'll be praising them.
There's no pissing match. Just veiled passive aggressive jabs from the L2P crowd insisting something works that doesn't. They have neither the spreadsheet that I've compiled with different sets nor the experience of being turned down by numerous guilds for not wanting to heal because they are in some ultra-casual thing with their friends.
It's quite simple: The math of the class doesn't allow it to DPS comparatively to even Sorcs who need buffs themselves. He can insist things are fine all he wants. But I've said my piece. He has nothing to add because he has some ludicrous set that he probably farmed every day since the patch that any other class would benefit more from anyway.1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
My thinking isn't flawed, your seems to be. You completely skip over healing when you describe how awesome DKs are. Nightblades are no where close to being as good at healing as a templar (I've played both, including a nightblade healer for a long time - my less powerful templar healer can heal circles around him) and tbh sorcs are kind of below everyone else on everything, but still good at all the roles.
What you want is templars to be as good at dps, or nearly so, as those classes, when they already are the best, by far, at healing and arguably as strong at tanking as DKs (in fact, my lowbie templar tank I'm liking more than the DK as well).
Also, I didn't say templars should suck at DPS, and they do not.
Edit: I've been honest in admitted that they do slightly less dps and saying that I think that's ok considering what else they can do. Don't twist it to say I think they should suck.
And I don't mean to offend, but it sounds like some people with issues don't know how to build their character well. This happened with stamina as well. I had a stamina built NB at the beginning of the the game launch that could hang with anybody at dps. When nobody wanted a stamina build or nb in a group, when people were whining on the forums about how NBs needed buffed and stamina needed buffed - there were still ways to build it well.
Granted, that meant that you had less options and had to be very focused on your build. So maybe buffs were needed just to round out the role. After all, you could have a lazy magicka based build and kick ass with it, but had to have a perfectly built stamina build just to hang. So I can see wanting to even that out. Templars however, I'm fine with leaving in that 'needing to build for it' area b/c it pushes them out of some of their healing power when they do so. Especially stamina wise, one of our guildies runs a stamina based templar dps that does very very well. And manny, who commented here, was outdoing our sorc in dps yesterday with his magicka based templar and had no problems doing the v12 vet hard mode pledge last night. It's do-able.
Sorry if that comes off L2P, but sometimes, that is indeed the case.
And remember, even with all that said, I've also said I could see some minor tweaks and improvements made to the class to help them.Edited by xaraan on November 19, 2014 8:34PM-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
Natjur✭✭✭✭✭
✭Patch 1.6 will change everything. Every skill is getting reviewed. I am holding out hope that Templars get better dps.
But then again, I hope all four classes, get balanced and any of the four classes can pull of any of the three roles. (unlikely but I can hope)2 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Patch 1.6 will change everything. Every skill is getting reviewed. I am holding out hope that Templars get better dps.
But then again, I hope all four classes, get balanced and any of the four classes can pull of any of the three roles. (unlikely but I can hope)
This is a good point, plus spell crafting will be coming as well.. (Something I'm looking forward to with my NB tank to fill in the gap of what he can't do as well as tempalrs or dks in tanking)-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC1 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
eh, my line of thinking is as a PvEr, I PvP a very small percentage of my overall time.
Like I said before, I could see some small tweaks to the powers, but nothing substantial that would make them out dps other classes easily. They already can do better dps than most people think.
Also: There are countless threads still talking about DKs being OP and threads asking for buffs to sorcs.
And cookie cutter builds don't exist b/c of math, they exist b/c only one or two people do the math and everyone follows their lead until someone comes along and shows they can do math too.
Dude, I don't know why you're not getting it, but please really try to get it here.
This what your line of thinking is: Templars can be the best Healers, clearly their DPS should be lower.
That logic is terribly flawed and despite everything that you keep saying, that logic does not changed nor become without flaws. Listen to what you are saying then compare that to other classes and how they act.
Dragonknights - They are the best tanks hands down, and rarely ever die. For this, their damage should be abysmal, correct? It would seem it is not, for a DK in full tank gear can do nearly as much damage as any other DPS in their primary DPS sets. Think about that, a DK in full Heavy has no issues doing 1k DPS, and I've seen it happen. Again, you logic failing you.
Sorcerers - Endless magicka, their damage and heals are rather low. Hey look, that one actually matches. Kind of horseshit, but it matches.
Nightblades - Can tank amazingly well, heal on par with a Templar thanks to Siphoning, and can DPS like it's nobody's business with both Stamina and Magicka. They're the new Dragonknights folks, and again @xaraan, you logic fails you.
This is what @Pmarsico9 and I are trying to tell you, that all four classes in this game have severe imbalance issues, not just in the sense that one or two classes aren't doing enough, but one or two classes are also doing too much.
I'm also speaking from a PvE perspective so you are not alone in that. I have to bust my ass to DPS and not get carried as a Templar, yet other classes can literally use 3 buttons and carry double my weight. It's pretty damn discouraging sometimes.
Also, while I'm not a fan of math, both of you just explained exactly what cookie cutter builds are, and you kinda sorta just proved @Pmarsico9 right when it comes to their core of existence.Thechemicals wrote: »Templar base class is not supposed to be a dps based class....thats how balanc eis offset when you can remove debuffs and heal, core.
Um, no. That is even worse logic than the first guy. Other skill lines with other effect removing abilities exist, other heals exist, other barriers, etc etc. Do you not see what's happening here? Or why I just had to go into detail to Xaraan that thinking because something is one way at base means it should suck at a certain something else is terribly flawed, especially when Dragonknights and Nightblades both can be utterly amazing tanks while at the same time tearing players and monsters alike in half.
Just doesn't add up guys, come on now.
Here you want a 3 button combo?
Valkyn Skoria+ Overcharged Spell Damage+ Overcharged Magic Regen+ the 20 magic regen unaffected by soft caps you get from rune focus
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane->Bitting Jabs
Boom 700-1k dps without much effort.
BTW The Valkyn Skoria meteor can proc from all your attacks.
Ticks on Spear Shards
Ticks on vampires bane
The 4 sweeps on jabs
When range is required
Blazing Spear Shards-> Vampires Bane-> Entropy-> 3x Dark Flare
600-750 dps
If your wondering my sets
5x Seducers (Regen + Cost reduction) Body pieces and weapon
2x Cyrodiils Light ( 8 spell damage) Rings
2x Adroitness (8 Spell damage) Neck and belt (also comes in boots)
2x Valkyn Skoria
2 spell damage glyphs, 1 regen glyph that comes standard on cyrodiil light rings.
The Seducers for Magicka Regen, pointing out our Regen is terrible.
Cyrodil's Light, not bad, little annoying to farm out but not bad.
Adroitness, which is interesting how you're going about this when you could just make or have a commission for a set for Spell Damage, or simply wear the Martial Knowledge set.
Valkyn Skoria! A hard as hell/rare set to farm out! Good on you! You showed that to achieve the 3 button DPS combo for Templars you have to grind out and farm some hard to achieve/rare as hell to drop gear, while other classes can use a 2 trait set to get the same damn thing. Not to mention that you only got 700-1k DPS, whereas NBs and DKs can reach 1.6k to 2k.
By the way, for your fyi sir, the minimum required by most trial groups is 750, I say this because most want the easy way out, so while your first, very labor intensive melee method would work, the second would not.
Good day sir.
So wait I am not supposed to play to my strengths and weaknesses?
I think I am seeing the problem here...
Also wth is labor intensive about pushing buttons?
DK the class you complaining about is melee...
Your comment about the head is the funniest. If my build had aether you would complain that you need to complete trials to get geared. The point of content is to get better gear. So duh you have to clear things to get better stuff.
Also the 750 number is something people create not some mystical number that allows you to do trials.
Simply put:
That's simply using a set to reach a minimum to not be carried. Any other class would benefit more from a similarly constructed set (of course, they wouldn't need Seducer because their spells don't cost limbs, they just cost magicka) so their DPS would be higher anyway.
It's not about creating some band-aid here, it's about equality and at least getting on the same continent as other classes.
Sorcs also need help. It's flat scaling. NB's and DK's scale insanely well. The other two classes have trouble competing for the same DPS slots and don't have any mathematical backing to do the damage without gimmick sets like you are talking about.
I don't know what's so hard to understand here. You are saying that in the best gear a Templar may do 750-1000 DPS.
Nightblades and DK's in my guild sustain 1800-2000 on long boss fights. So congratulations, in good gear you are half as effective as other classes in equivalent gear sets.
The people you are referring too are the exception not the rule. Most players in this game can not get passed 1k regardless of class. Also it's worth pointing out my numbers are without ults and crit potions.
It doesn't matter. The perception is what it is. Very few guilds will openly recruit Templars for anything but healing slots on Trials teams.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have in a very specific gear set is not going to suddenly make PUGs actually take me into Trials as anything but a healer.
Think of it this way: The baseline for Templar DPS is trash. There's little appeal or advantage to taking them and odds are there are going to do less damage than any of the other three classes in that DPS slot.
A DK upgrades his staff to yellow, his DPS may go from 1000 to 1300.
A Templar does so and they are going from 600 to 700. They don't scale as well, they don't have strong base, and you are still ignoring the part that other than Vamp's Bane, nearly every other ability in Dawn's Wrath is a DPS loss.
I am not saying the class does not need some of the skills improved. I am saying that the biggest problem is perception. You are only adding to the problem. You are validating all the people that deny you by not trying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I have spent HOURS trying to make multiple builds work.
"Not trying?" So to you, I'm not trying by not spending hours pugging and healing Veteran Dungeons to farm a what, 1-2% drop rate item set so I can then wear the gear that should enable me to convince people that I can legitimately DPS?
Forget it, you're a troll. I swear, this thread garners more DKs whining about Templars in some veiled attempt to "prove how overpowered Templars would be if they did decent damage" in a completely nonsensical and bizzarro way. I have to say, he's probably the 3rd that I've actually paid attention to that I shouldn't have.
Oh wow you spent hours lol. I am saying that you are not a templar dps you are a templar who complains about not doing dps. If your some how concerned that I am a dk I will screen shot time played on all my characters.
Also pugging is half your problem.
Ok you two cut it out because now this is turning into some sort of awkward pissing contest/one sided debate.
Manny, you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is people can do amazing DPS thanks to the class they chose, whereas Templars are stuck in a rather shitastic rut thanks to the way the class is constructed.
I will say though that I have faith in ZoS and I'm waiting for future changes as to whether or not I will be saying that they can shove it or if I'll be praising them.
There's no pissing match. Just veiled passive aggressive jabs from the L2P crowd insisting something works that doesn't. They have neither the spreadsheet that I've compiled with different sets nor the experience of being turned down by numerous guilds for not wanting to heal because they are in some ultra-casual thing with their friends.
It's quite simple: The math of the class doesn't allow it to DPS comparatively to even Sorcs who need buffs themselves. He can insist things are fine all he wants. But I've said my piece. He has nothing to add because he has some ludicrous set that he probably farmed every day since the patch that any other class would benefit more from anyway.
Lets just get this out of the way. That set is not that rare, but if you don't run the proper content to get it your drop rate is 0%. I actually have two copies of that set btw. The problem is that there is no pleasing you unless your are the best at doing everything. You complained to @xarran than you did not have a 3 button easy mode, and that you could not get over 1k dps with crushing shock. I gave you both (not a crushing shock build but one that can get over 1k ) , but you just continue to want more.
Anyone that argues that templars don't need any type of dps buff is crazy, but crying you want 1.8k dps will not get us anywhere. If you want that reroll, and then reroll again when another class is the new flavor of the month.Edited by manny254 on November 19, 2014 8:41PM- Mojican7 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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DKs(as well as NBs and Sorcs) will never be as good healers as Templars. Therefore, templars will never be as good dps as those other classes. The logic here is is REALLY simple, you're just refusing to listen.I'm sure some minor tweaks are needed to class skills for templars (they are needed for all classes), but I'm fairly certain the reason they fall a little short on dps is to compensate for their healing power. I don't think it would be very balanced with other classes to have templars putting out same dps as them and have the awesome healing power at their disposal.
Having played a templar, the class is at a pretty good spot for getting through all the content with no problem solo and can hang well in pvp. Sure, they have to be played a bit differently in some cases - which might be where some run into problems, but they are far from broken.
Then why aren't DK's penalized for being the best tanks?
You are talking to a guy that has a NB tank and DK tank and prefer his NB tank.
Though I get what you are saying about DKs. But two wrongs don't make a right. That class still probably needs some different kind of tweaks. Also: templars make excellent tanks.
How many tanks do you need in a run?
How many healers?
How many DPS?
How do you go about changing the paradigm that exists right now that Templars aren't viable DPSers for Veteran Speed runs and PUG Trials? Or is it by design that Templars shouldn't have the ability to get those slots and therefore not participate in end game the way the vast majority of ESO's population does because they can heal without a resto staff?
Also, do you feel it's fair that the class description should be altered at character creation to highlight the fact that the class has suppressed DPS because they can heal?
Or should we pretend for a moment that the DPS issue can be addressed through a creative manner without supporting the class' healing?
EDIT:
See, when it's not in a vacuum, there's no way it works as it's currently implemented in a means towards being fair to Templars. Nobody ever answers these questions.
In my opinion, the only way templars should get equal DPS to the other classes if they lost their healing power difference. That would make it even, if you could do that kind of dps with a templar, plus have access to those heals, why would anyone play any other class?
They already make one of the best tanks in the game, the make THE best healer in the game (yes, I've run with great healers from other classes) and do decent dps. (Apply a DoT from your skills, then rotate crushing shock and light attack like every other class does). They also have some other unique tools at their disposal in fights like the bubble and the beam thing, rune focus, etc. (sorry, not on game atm and can't remember names lol). It's an outstanding class at the moment.
*Not to say things probably don't need work, all classes do really.
Also, I, and our group healer templar, has also dps'd (refusing to use crushing shock and only templar powers - I'm not that restrictive). Again, you are right, it's not as high as other classes, but yes, you can hang in vet dungeons (we only do gold run pledges everyday at v12). They can hang, but again - you are right - they are just hanging, they aren't kicking butt at it. But if you make every class equal, then you lose some of what makes them unique.
Every class has certain roles they are stronger at than others, some even a couple roles.
You are also always going to have players that want cookie cutter builds to do certain runs because they either 1. don't want to take chances b/c they don't trust themselves with pugs or 2. don't know any better (or both). I have people that won't let me tank with my NB tank and I have no qualms saying I'm probably one of the better tanks in the game. I also had groups that wouldn't let me join up on my stamina dps NB back before the buffs (I ran him up at launch, before any changes or nerfs to vet and did excellent dps). Part of that is player ignorance or unwillingness to take a chance and part of that is zos' fault for the trials. There is more endgame that trials, but the guys that do those a lot are some of the worst offenders of the cookie cutter beliefs. I've run with them in trials, it's all stack and burn, get heals constantly and sit in veils constantly and very little skill is involved (maybe Sanctum is better). We've taken them in dungeon runs and they are terrible. Give me a player that does a couple hundred less dps but knows how to stay alive or help his group over someone bragging about doing insane dps on some random group pull (favorite question when they are dead: What's your dps now?).
I get what you are saying, I really do. I just don't agree that they should have dps equal to what the other classes can do when they are already the best at one or two roles (one by far).
As for changing the description on the class: I guess I could see some minor changes. I didn't realize they sold it as the greatest dps class or anything. Seeing as it can definitely do all the solo content perfectly fine, handle pvp great and hang in most any good dungeon group - that's not exactly in the 'sucking' department. I haven't talked to anyone with or tried a solid stamina based build with them (other than the bowplar I played in pts long ago), which could do good dps while augmenting their healing and protection with templar powers.
Not sure what questions you aren't getting answered, if none of my ramblings did, then I probably didn't understand the question. Or I do, and we just disagree.
I mean, if you make templars equal to the other classes in dps, then what do you do to make the other classes equal to templars in healing power or tanking power (DK not counting on the tanking question).
Templars get excluded from content for the vast amount of available roles.
How do you fix that without making the class equal DPS?
You think nobody would play another class if Templars could do equal DPS to even Sorcs? Really?
Making things equal doesn't mean you give up uniqueness.
And what if I told you that it's been suggested numerous times, as a fix, to simply attach this as a passive to the class:
"When you have 5 damaging abilities on your bars and a non-restoring Light ultimate, you gain 20% magicka regen and do 25% extra damage."
Doesn't that work? Because even if the Templar has heals on its other bar, that's commisserate with having to use a Resto staff, is it not? And the abilities hit like garbage as it stands without a bonus like that and they can't sustain anything.
The bottom line is: Your line of thinking is only really applicable to PVP, where even then, they aren't nearly as flagrantly overpowered as the Dragon Knight is. Are they strong? Sure. But not like DK's. Suggesting that the class has to be pigeonholed to the two lowest population roles and be viewed as such by those organizing group content due to "uniqueness" is a cop out.
There is no excuse, homogenization or otherwise, where a class shouldn't be capable to act as an equal DPS in PVE content. In PVP? Yeah you need checks and balances. But to exclude a class from consideration of an entire role?
That's poppycock. If that's going to be the case, and DK's are the best tanks, then where's the posts about nerfing DK DPS? Or buffing Sorcs? Because your reality isn't working as it stands now. DK's pay no penalties for being great tanks. Sorcs pay penalties for having easy access to endless magicka. It's all very stupid and they need to fix all these inequalities and understand that 9 times out of 10, you need to be able to do equivalent DPS mathematically. The delivery systems are where you can create differentiation.
With that said, you will always have cookie cutter builds because Math is real.
You're extremely good at two MOST DEMANDED roles as far as dungeon groups go(not the case with Trials because you really only need 1 tank and 1-2 heales for 12 people, but imo that's a question about Trials, not templars). I'm a dps. Do you know the single reason I can't run dungeons whenever I want? No healer/tank. Dps #2 can be found in minutes. Tank and ESPECIALLY healer? Not like they can't be found, but it usually takes a lot longer.
With new dungeons, I cannot heal them no matter how awesome my sorc magicka management is. I've primarily been a sorc healer til like vet 10, now I dps 90% of the time because my heals just aren't enough. I simply don't have enough burst heals to pull the group out with the amount of damage some bosses do now. And I know what I'm talking about - I've healed non vet DSA and COH no death as a sorc. Doable? Yes. Doable a LOT easier with a templar? Also yes.
It's the same with your dps. Doable? Yes. Doable better with other classes? Also yes.
If you want more dps, then I want my own healing skill tree. And stamina management passives for better tanking.
Your complaints aren't logical. Your complaint is essentially: "Instead of making a thread asking for a Breath-of-Life-like ability for Resto Staff like it should have, I'm going to complain that an entire class is excluded from an entire role."
I'm not complaning? I'm saying your complaint is invalid because you're asking for what other classes do NOT have to make it "fair". That wouldn't be fair, that would be OP. If a class that's hands down best healer and great tank was great dps, then we might as well delete all other classes since everyone is going to reroll templar anyway.
You have to be trolling. So the reason to keep a class completely excluded from a role is fear that everybody would only play that class. That is beyond stupid logic.
"Oh they would only play Templars........." ROFLMAO.
Take it easy, chicken little, if you haven't noticed, DK's are already the answer of what to re-roll to, why don't you go do that.
You're not EXCLUDED from a role. Plenty of people have told you that templar can and do dps, even in vet dungeons and Trials. But yes, it's more complicated than with any other class, and great templar dps will never be as good as great NB/DK/sorc dps. That's because you have to sacrifice something for having the strongest heal in the game, you know. (the answer to why is, again, really simple, for n-th time - because other classes have NOTHING even close to your heals. So it wouldn't be fair for you to have your heals AND their dps)
Also, single most common message in my most active dungeons running guild is "LF1M for vet dungeon, templar healer please". Just saying.Edited by Magdalina on November 19, 2014 10:07PM1 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Patch 1.6 will change everything. Every skill is getting reviewed. I am holding out hope that Templars get better dps.
But then again, I hope all four classes, get balanced and any of the four classes can pull of any of the three roles. (unlikely but I can hope)
This is a good point, plus spell crafting will be coming as well.. (Something I'm looking forward to with my NB tank to fill in the gap of what he can't do as well as tempalrs or dks in tanking)
I wouldn't be wishing for spellcrafting (aka Trainwrecking) to come any sooner than they're going to force it.
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Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Surfinginhawaii wrote: »
I would love this.david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »...just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina...
I don't know how useful that would really be. A lot of the Templar problem is sustained single-target DPS against big bosses that need to be taken down as fast as possible.
How useful will Repentance be for that? Unless it is a boss who spawns lots of squishy adds and you have a steady supply of fresh corpses, Repentance will not be too much help.
And you have to waste a skill slot on Repentance when other classes can get magicka back from passives or as a side effect of using other skills.
Also, every tough boss in the Trial/Dungeon would need to be surrounded by adds that are dying a lot. If there is even one boss with no steady stream of corpses in the vicinity, Templar DPS/Resource Management will be no different than it is now. No will want to bring along a non-healing Templar if they can hold their own against 2 bosses in a location but remain a liability at 3 other bosses.
if you replaced the health for repentance then the other morphs need to as well, an in that case it would be add 80% stam and magica regen; seeing that its easy to soft cap this may help you hardcap. the problem with that is you hit everybody, and giving everyone +80% magica regain is really just too powerful. they would need to nurf and rebuild the skill. and if they were to do that there are some other skills better suited to be rebuilt, like backlash and runefocus.0 -
ThatHappyCat✭✭✭✭✭Maybe I'm just lucky, but no one has ever commented on me (or anyone else) being Templar DPS in any Vet Pledge or CoA group I've been in, Guild or PUG. In the few trial groups I've squeezed into the fact that I'm Templar DPS didn't faze anyone either.
Mind you, when I say I'm "Templar DPS" I actually use the exact same equipment and skills I use as Templar Healer, so my DPS is poor (my contribution is basically just Blazing Spear > Elemental Drain > Crushing Shock/Light Attack). Would be more accurate to call me a Healer with off-DPS.
I'm not saying Templar DPS (or rather, the Dawn's Wrath line) doesn't need help, just saying that I've never experienced the kind of "discrimination" some people are reporting.
Also, to clarify: Channelled Focus actually restores 10 magicka every 0.5 seconds, so it's the equivalent of 40 uncapped magicka regen. It's no substitute for a true magicka management skill but it does help.Edited by ThatHappyCat on November 20, 2014 12:41AM0 -
Lord_Kreegan✭✭✭✭✭Many years ago, December 2004, I created a Druid in WoW. A natural hybrid class: healer-tank-DPS; it had its problems, but was still fun to play, especially to solo. Most problems were fixed eight months later as the devs completed their passes on all the various classes.
Templar is, in a sense, ESO's Druid. It's a versatile class; it's a fun class. It just can't shape-change [it hasn't been eight months yet].Edited by Lord_Kreegan on November 20, 2014 12:47AM0 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Let me put it all this way for all of you to understand, and this goes both ways beneficial for all of us:
A class should be able to do what it is specialized to do. A Templar may be good at healing, but it should be barely if any better at all than a Nightblade or Dragonknight or Sorcerer, and the same goes for Tanking and Damage Dealing, because that is what the character is built for. If anything, if I was ZoS, I would completely remove the entire Restoring Light tree from Templars, make it the new Restoration Skill line when Spellcrafting comes out, give Restoration Staffs a burst heal, and give Templars some sort of Daedra/Paladin like skill line. Not a damn clue what it would be at the moment, but that's how I'd begin to approach the situationBobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
AngryNord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, if Templars were supposed to be like a D&D Cleric, they should still have _some_ magic/healing abilities.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
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Yup, I am looking forward to that review as well. The Templar change will be "increased the damage of vampire's bane by 1%. Decreased the range of Vampires Bane by 70%"Patch 1.6 will change everything. Every skill is getting reviewed. I am holding out hope that Templars get better dps.
But then again, I hope all four classes, get balanced and any of the four classes can pull of any of the three roles. (unlikely but I can hope)ThatHappyCat wrote: »Maybe I'm just lucky, but no one has ever commented on me (or anyone else) being Templar DPS in any Vet Pledge or CoA group I've been in, Guild or PUG. In the few trial groups I've squeezed into the fact that I'm Templar DPS didn't faze anyone either.
Mind you, when I say I'm "Templar DPS" I actually use the exact same equipment and skills I use as Templar Healer, so my DPS is poor (my contribution is basically just Blazing Spear > Elemental Drain > Crushing Shock/Light Attack). Would be more accurate to call me a Healer with off-DPS.
I'm not saying Templar DPS (or rather, the Dawn's Wrath line) doesn't need help, just saying that I've never experienced the kind of "discrimination" some people are reporting.
Also, to clarify: Channelled Focus actually restores 10 magicka every 0.5 seconds, so it's the equivalent of 40 uncapped magicka regen. It's no substitute for a true magicka management skill but it does help.
You don't run into a problem because you actually say "I'm a Templar DPS."
Most people that run into a problem are those that don't say anything and nobody realizes that they aren't a healer until the group starts wiping. A quick "I am a DPS Templar" as soon as you enter the group will normally fix any problems people have with grouping with you.Edited by timidobserver on November 20, 2014 7:55AMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭timidobserver wrote: »
Yup, I am looking forward to that review as well. The Templar change will be "increased the damage of vampire's bane by 1%. Decreased the range of Vampires Bane by 70%"Patch 1.6 will change everything. Every skill is getting reviewed. I am holding out hope that Templars get better dps.
But then again, I hope all four classes, get balanced and any of the four classes can pull of any of the three roles. (unlikely but I can hope)ThatHappyCat wrote: »Maybe I'm just lucky, but no one has ever commented on me (or anyone else) being Templar DPS in any Vet Pledge or CoA group I've been in, Guild or PUG. In the few trial groups I've squeezed into the fact that I'm Templar DPS didn't faze anyone either.
Mind you, when I say I'm "Templar DPS" I actually use the exact same equipment and skills I use as Templar Healer, so my DPS is poor (my contribution is basically just Blazing Spear > Elemental Drain > Crushing Shock/Light Attack). Would be more accurate to call me a Healer with off-DPS.
I'm not saying Templar DPS (or rather, the Dawn's Wrath line) doesn't need help, just saying that I've never experienced the kind of "discrimination" some people are reporting.
Also, to clarify: Channelled Focus actually restores 10 magicka every 0.5 seconds, so it's the equivalent of 40 uncapped magicka regen. It's no substitute for a true magicka management skill but it does help.
You don't run into a problem because you actually say "I'm a Templar DPS."
Most people that run into a problem are those that don't say anything and nobody realizes that they aren't a healer until the group starts wiping. A quick "I am a DPS Templar" as soon as you enter the group will normally fix any problems people have with grouping with you.
I'm a Templar DPS too, but I'm adding the healer skills right now, so I can be DPS/Healer. DPS is still going to be my main focus though.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
BRogueNZ✭✭✭✭✭
Also, single most common message in my most active dungeons running guild is "LF1M for vet dungeon, templar healer please". Just saying.
That would be because it would be a DPS loss if another class filled the healer role in a lot of group set ups too. just saying.
Edited by BRogueNZ on November 20, 2014 11:31AM1 -
G0ku✭✭✭✭I don´t understand why people claim sorc is the weakest class atm?
I even had a sorc tank in a random group and he was formidable, the amount of CC and kiting he could do was amazing. We also finished nearly every vet dungeon with a sorc heal.
I got my DK tank to V14 replacing my templar tank and our DD got his sorc to V14 replacing his nightblade and we did the best time until now in Hardmode Arena with 2 sorc DD, 1 templar heal and 2 sorc DD.
I think the level of play is a major factor when you start comparing dps.
If you pair up 2 DK, 2 NB or 2 sorc with the about same destrostaff build we could beat any content. Don´t know if this was possible with 2 templar DD´s but i doubt it. You would have to change to a completely different build of the guys who do high dps with their templars. But this would require a whole lot of more practice than with the other classes - and I think this is what templars complain about. Not everyone can get this high in skill. Other classes get good dps following an easier way.
As I will be always be forced by my team to tank no matter what (originally I leveled my DK to become a DD) I am not really bothered by this.
But at the start of the game templar wasn´t advertised this way, and some people don´t have the time to start a toon. They originally wanted to play dps though and now they get neglected.- First AD EU Group to finish DSA VET -
AD Altmer V16 Templar Alliance Rank 30 - EU - DSA Conqueror (pre-nerf) flawless vMSA
AD Argonian V16 Dragonknight Alliance Rank 15
AD Bosmer V16 Nightblade Alliance Rank 16
AD Kahjiit V16 Sorcerer Alliance Rank 10
AD Dunmer V16 Dragonknight Alliance Rank 9
AD Altmer V16 Templar Alliance Rank 10 - flawless vMSA
DC Altmer V16 Sorcerer Alliance Rank 9 - flawless vMSA
AD Breton V16 Templar Alliance Rank 10
AD Altmer V16 Sorceress Alliance Rank 21
AD Kahjiit Warden
AD Altmer Nightblade2 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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That would be because it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any other class to heal current vet dungeons. People don't specify dps or tank class, but when they say healer, 99% mean templar if it's about vet dungeons/trials.
And yes, I know how to heal. Lack of burst non aoe heal still screws me over in certain situations. Most people would rather take templar dps than non templar healer even, because there're not so many dps races, and you can still get things done with lower dps, just slower. You can't get things done if you lack heals - you die.
I tried healing vet DC the other day - not many troubles up til last boss, but he is pretty much impossible. Between the speed of cycling between phases and the amount of damage he is dealing, I just don't have enough heals to pull the people out.
I'm sure it's still possible with an extremely well coordinated group, though. Just like 2 Templar dps would be;P0 -
guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭I don´t understand why people claim sorc is the weakest class atm?
I even had a sorc tank in a random group and he was formidable, the amount of CC and kiting he could do was amazing. We also finished nearly every vet dungeon with a sorc heal.
I got my DK tank to V14 replacing my templar tank and our DD got his sorc to V14 replacing his nightblade and we did the best time until now in Hardmode Arena with 2 sorc DD, 1 templar heal and 2 sorc DD.
I think the level of play is a major factor when you start comparing dps.
If you pair up 2 DK, 2 NB or 2 sorc with the about same destrostaff build we could beat any content. Don´t know if this was possible with 2 templar DD´s but i doubt it. You would have to change to a completely different build of the guys who do high dps with their templars. But this would require a whole lot of more practice than with the other classes - and I think this is what templars complain about. Not everyone can get this high in skill. Other classes get good dps following an easier way.
As I will be always be forced by my team to tank no matter what (originally I leveled my DK to become a DD) I am not really bothered by this.
But at the start of the game templar wasn´t advertised this way, and some people don´t have the time to start a toon. They originally wanted to play dps though and now they get neglected.
Sorry, but what you are writing is completely beside the point. Yes, any content in the game right now can probably be completed successfully with sorcs in any role if people are well geared and play exceptionally well, but that doesn't mean that the class isn't the weakest by comparison.0 -
tplink3r1✭✭✭✭✭
✭now can you see the problem devs? people here are saying templar is a healing class.Edited by tplink3r1 on November 21, 2014 12:44AMVR16 Templar
VR3 Sorcerer2 -
G0ku✭✭✭✭guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »Sorry, but what you are writing is completely beside the point. Yes, any content in the game right now can probably be completed successfully with sorcs in any role if people are well geared and play exceptionally well, but that doesn't mean that the class isn't the weakest by comparison.
In comparison to what? Which aspect of the game? What you are writing is a statement without any hard facts. Neither have you contributed any substantial to discussion I can find. Looks like you´re just one fo those guys who is butthurt over not being able to faceroll anything like a DK and coming to a templar thread to QQ about it.
What I wanted to say is that with every class you chose at the beginning of TESO you knew what you will get with this class except for the templar and that this is the reason for now calling damage buffs for templars.
And this thread is not the place to tell templars they should be satisfied to heal because sorcs are even in a worse spot in comparison? Why not start your own thread discussing why sorcs need to get a buff? Reducing other people to one role because you´re unsatisfied with your choice of class won´t help anybody.
Just because another guy is in a worse situation doesn´t better another bad situation - both should be improved. But this thread is about templars.
- First AD EU Group to finish DSA VET -
AD Altmer V16 Templar Alliance Rank 30 - EU - DSA Conqueror (pre-nerf) flawless vMSA
AD Argonian V16 Dragonknight Alliance Rank 15
AD Bosmer V16 Nightblade Alliance Rank 16
AD Kahjiit V16 Sorcerer Alliance Rank 10
AD Dunmer V16 Dragonknight Alliance Rank 9
AD Altmer V16 Templar Alliance Rank 10 - flawless vMSA
DC Altmer V16 Sorcerer Alliance Rank 9 - flawless vMSA
AD Breton V16 Templar Alliance Rank 10
AD Altmer V16 Sorceress Alliance Rank 21
AD Kahjiit Warden
AD Altmer Nightblade3 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭That would be because it would be a DPS loss if another class filled the healer role in a lot of group set ups too. just saying.
Yes and no. It would probably be a dps loss, but who needs top sustained dps to complete a scaled VR dungeon? You dont even need it for speed challenges. You need to not wipe and pay attention to mechanics, that's it. But you always need top heal in a 4-man group. Only a templar can do that solo.
If another class is healing, you need to change the entire group and skill set-up. So more in the group needs to contribute with a resto, off-heals and more protective skills. But even than, there's a few heal heavy encounters, just not possible for pugs without a templar healing.
Trials is of course a different matter. It's been messed up since day. Only difference is the classes you stack and the classes you treat as inferior. Right now sorcerer is in the cold. But it use the be NB. Templar is however same old story, you grab 2-3 for heals and stamina synergy, depending on how bad the group is. They aren't even considered when asking for dps or DD's outside of guild groups.
Really hope future "endgame content" wont be dps races, since ZoS aren't capable of balancing class dps and contribution
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Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »Sorry, but what you are writing is completely beside the point. Yes, any content in the game right now can probably be completed successfully with sorcs in any role if people are well geared and play exceptionally well, but that doesn't mean that the class isn't the weakest by comparison.
In comparison to what? Which aspect of the game? What you are writing is a statement without any hard facts. Neither have you contributed any substantial to discussion I can find. Looks like you´re just one fo those guys who is butthurt over not being able to faceroll anything like a DK and coming to a templar thread to QQ about it.
What I wanted to say is that with every class you chose at the beginning of TESO you knew what you will get with this class except for the templar and that this is the reason for now calling damage buffs for templars.
And this thread is not the place to tell templars they should be satisfied to heal because sorcs are even in a worse spot in comparison? Why not start your own thread discussing why sorcs need to get a buff? Reducing other people to one role because you´re unsatisfied with your choice of class won´t help anybody.
Just because another guy is in a worse situation doesn´t better another bad situation - both should be improved. But this thread is about templars.
Yep that WAS the point of the thread, but everybody who doesn't play a Templar feels the need to chime in and explain why it's OK that the class description, which specifically calls out that the class will be able to deal damage without being massively behind other classes, is a lie because the class can heal.
The truth is: Every class can heal. Templars have a single spell in Rushed Ceremony and its morphs that should probably be a resto staff ability, which would then address everything. Nobody would have a leg to stand on arguing against making Templars damage dealers on par with other classes.
That's in a vacuum. In reality, the Restoring Light tree is also a hindrance:
Other classes don't have a single tree completely dedicated to healing, which ultimately limits how creative you can get since you are working with 10 actives instead of 15 and you give up an ultimate slot for an ultimate that only heals.
I was posting about this during the beta. I said it was poor design and would lead to balancing problems. And essentially, I was 100% right. Now it's to the point that the community's perspective is skewed and exclusive behavior is prevalent.1 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭That would be because it would be a DPS loss if another class filled the healer role in a lot of group set ups too. just saying.
Yes and no. It would probably be a dps loss, but who needs top sustained dps to complete a scaled VR dungeon? You dont even need it for speed challenges. You need to not wipe and pay attention to mechanics, that's it. But you always need top heal in a 4-man group. Only a templar can do that solo.
If another class is healing, you need to change the entire group and skill set-up. So more in the group needs to contribute with a resto, off-heals and more protective skills. But even than, there's a few heal heavy encounters, just not possible for pugs without a templar healing.
Trials is of course a different matter. It's been messed up since day. Only difference is the classes you stack and the classes you treat as inferior. Right now sorcerer is in the cold. But it use the be NB. Templar is however same old story, you grab 2-3 for heals and stamina synergy, depending on how bad the group is. They aren't even considered when asking for dps or DD's outside of guild groups.
Really hope future "endgame content" wont be dps races, since ZoS aren't capable of balancing class dps and contribution
Mechanics in this game are largely overcome by incredible DPS. It's that simple. Which is a problem with encounter design, which is exacerbating metrical class balance problems. Consider certain veteran dungeon encounters:
Praxim Douare in Spindleclutch: The adds spawn on a timer and even played mechanically perfectly, you aren't going to have an easy time with the fight unless your DPS is explosive.
Banished Cells 3rd boss: Big damage on the adds and boss limit orb spawns and kills adds quickly.
Crypt of Hearts: Last boss final phase is strictly a dps burn phase.
Gauntlet in Darkshade: As with any Gauntlet: high aoe DPS yields less mobs more quickly.0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm more interested in the broken traits of Illuminate and Master Ritualist. There are other issues of course. I'd like to see Balanced Warrior get a nudge as well, personally, but nothing major there.
The charge is supposedly fixed though I have still overshot my target on occasion, its nothing like it use to be where I'd charge a target and go through a rock, fall through the map for a minute, then slam on the grind and end up at a wayshrine after dying. This problem has happened multiple times, even in pvp. They SEEM to have fixed this problem, but its not just a class issue. I've had the overshooting occur with sword and shield or Twohander as well, although the weapon skills always seemed the safer approach in the early days.
Some abilities have obvious problems, namely eclipse and power of the light. Eclipse won't hit most mobs that you'd ever want to hit with this power, even when you give it the damage ability (unlike Velocious Curse). Power of the Light takes so long to cast, and the amount of burst that it can grant essentially means you were better off never casting it to begin with. If power of the light were instant cast it MIGHT be worth having in your tray. I'm also fine with some classes being better at certain niches than others, but clearly no class should have a power in its lineup that is worthless.
The Blinding Flashes ability fires off every couple of seconds at melee range, and with all the passives and upgrades you are short of another flash by .2 seconds. Why? Compared to Cinder Storm, this is a junk power, and needs work Its not that Blinding Flashes is completely horrible, I'd be fine with it as is if the cost weren't so high for it, particularly on a class with terrible magicka regeneration innately...
I realize that in pvp Templars can do great things, but to be fair all classes can. The main problems I have with the class are the abilities that are completely broken and not functioning or functioning in ways not intended.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>2 -
rsciw✭✭✭david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »Seriously, just make Repentance return Magicka and Stamina rather than Health and Stamina
For the love of Mara, I'd prefer ZOS do not touch Repentance. Free insta-heal, based on numbers of bodies around can fill up health bar back to 100% from 1%, what's not to love about that? Seen many templars incl. myself rely on that skill in Cyrodiil, and works well in PvE too (provided there are adds/trash to kill, of course)2 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭And finally people begin to get it. Templars are near the point that they need a total class redesign, and sorcerers are a few steps away from it. Just looking at how well NB and DK synergize with weapon, stealth, and fire, it really makes you wonder just what or who the *** thought it was a good idea to carry through with it in the end.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!2
