Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

What you are describing is a bell curve. It is commonly used to keep the majority of any target market within touching distance of each other.

You do appear to be on the wrong games forums though. All your metrics are for WoW.

Your also applying it to leveling, here it will only be used at max level, as a further means of progress. It will work well.

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

What you are describing is a bell curve. It is commonly used to keep the majority of any target market within touching distance of each other.

Call it what you like

You do appear to be on the wrong games forums though. All your metrics are for WoW.

??? Tan 85 = 11.43

Your also applying it to leveling, here it will only be used at max level, as a further means of progress. It will work well.

You can use it for leveling. You also use it for adding points to passives to get diminishing returns....or invest points in an alternative passive with the same system.

I'm really excited to be honest. Should be bloody awesome.

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

What you are describing is a bell curve. It is commonly used to keep the majority of any target market within touching distance of each other.

Call it what you like

You do appear to be on the wrong games forums though. All your metrics are for WoW.

??? Tan 85 = 11.43

Your also applying it to leveling, here it will only be used at max level, as a further means of progress. It will work well.

You can use it for leveling. You also use it for adding points to passives to get diminishing returns....or invest points in an alternative passive with the same system.

I'm really excited to be honest. Should be bloody awesome.

Was just funning with you.

Definately much better than VR system, people can join in end game from level 50, without having to grind out 14 VR levels.

I'm just rather bored of waiting for it. Should have been all they worked on from the second they decided to change direction, the delay has no doubt cost them thousands more subs.

/Sighs and nods solemnly

Wont count for diddly squat if it keeps crashing every 5 mins anyway

So this game is going to become like EVE? Is that how i'm reading it?

Great game but unless you have been here since the get go you will always be fodder for the vets with no way to equal them?
Like EVE is set up now where new players can join the game but they will NEVER be at the same level as those Vets. Thus there is 2 games in EVE, one for vets and one for everyone else.

We need ACTUAL facts from Devs about stuff like this not just 3rd party replies, good post but it should not be a players job to report stuff being implemented into the game.
That's just a cheap ass shot from Zeni to see how it will be received then if its bad they step in and say 'actually that's not how its going to happen, we never said that'.

School yard stuff Zeni. Do you think we are all 15 years old and have never seen this sort of stuff before??

25,000 hours... pffft. Someone will find an exploit and max out over a weekend and then come to the forums and complain "Im maxxed out, wheres the end game content"?

A Champion Point is earned after a still-to-be-determined amount of XP has been received by the player. That Champion Point can then be placed into the Champion System constellations, but there are some rules as to how they get placed.

This will kill the system.

It will be just like the VR now with the exception that exploiting and grinding xp will actually be encouraged and the only way to get those points.

What if someone only wants to discover lore books or do non Crag related quests?

I did so hope they wont turn ESO into a who exploits better game like D3 is now but I guess they wont.

Guppet wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

The points on your account can be spent on ALL characters you have, and they are NOT shared. So if you have 100 points, then you have 100 points to spend on character A, and 100 points to spend on B, and 100 points to spend on C. Using the points on one character does not reduce the pool that can be spent on the others.

Bad move if you ask me and I am not in favor of this - I am going to hope that is incorrect.

Care to give some reasoning why it's a bad move?

To me it means I can take my NB or Templar to a trial/dungeon and it won't matter to my overall progression in the champ system, I can take what is needed not the one that needs advancement, to me this gives flexibility, to those that put the effort in to level alts to max level.

This game is already great for alts, as I can and do share gear via the shared bank. Say a place drops an item I really want for my NB, but the guild badly needs healers (assuming I preferr to heal on my Temp), I can take my Temp, if the item I wanted drops I can give it to my NB.

This works well with the champ points per account rather than character. It leets you have characters for different things, without being penalised for playing your other characters.

I am not in favor of points being available in this way because I have seen this type of alt argument in other games. I prefer that my alts have their own accomplishments under their belt rather than taking laurels off the time I spent on my main. If you consider that “penalizing” the alt I do not; I look at it as achievement orientation.

Getting an alt to max level can happen in a number of different ways, as we know…, and the alt for most other people is seldom representative of the same kind of investment one makes with a main. That is not the case for me. If I roll an alt, I am rolling it to invest in it fully and actually learn its complexities same as my main’s. ‘Course, in this particular game the content itself has already changed so much that leveling now is very different than it was at launch.

As for the grouping/gear situations you mention, I have raided for years and been in those scenarios all too often; they inevitably lead to trouble even in the best of guilds. Just because someone gets one char of one class to max level does not mean that person actually has the slightest idea about what it means to level through the entire game on a char of another class, let alone effectively fill a critical spot in a group with one that has only been played once in a blue moon just because they want some piece of loot –which is another reason why changing drops to BoA from BoE is a better option.

Although all this being said, truth is the group make up in this game matters very little in the end since most of the content at end game which parades around as “raiding” is anything but. Sad.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player (5%). No one can hit 90 anyway.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

This new system will end this game. I'm sorry but it will. I find it hard to explain what I see. People are blinded by endless progression and current players are excited for more stuff to do but my point goes unanswered....

If the champion system has been out a few months now...and I just joined the game...it wouldn't take long for me to realize I can never compete with the top. This is a huge problem. Of course kids who have no life and play 12 hrs+ per day deserve to have a little edge. But this edge WilL be leaps and bounds.

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player (5%). No one can hit 90 anyway.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

This new system will end this game. I'm sorry but it will. I find it hard to explain what I see. People are blinded by endless progression and current players are excited for more stuff to do but my point goes unanswered....

If the champion system has been out a few months now...and I just joined the game...it wouldn't take long for me to realize I can never compete with the top. This is a huge problem. Of course kids who have no life and play 12 hrs+ per day deserve to have a little edge. But this edge WilL be leaps and bounds.

The advantage that players who have played for longer, and more seriously will be things like +10% to max magicka. 10% really isn't that much of a difference, and a new/casual player should expect to be beaten by a old/hardcore player.

No one would want to play the game seriously if a brand new player who spends 1-2 hours a day can easily kill someone who spends 10+ hours playing.

Francescolg wrote: »

If the champion System would be "designed for pvp" it would greatly enhance our motivation to do pvp. Therefore connect the champion levels to the pvp-rank (1-50). So much things have been added to pve-content but not for pvp!

Instead, you are adding another pve-lollipop every 6 weeks and just ONE new frontier zone somewhere in the future (pvp "dungeon"). All major upgrades till now were pure pve upgrades and some tweaking..

PvP-progression is not existant while players doing pve are getting buffed from day to day. We already have much better pve-sets (Warlock, AA magic crit-set, etc.) that are not given for pvp but "just" for pve-farming, whilst not enough is beeing done to reward time invested in pvp!

I do not want a "title" as a reward for successful pvp.+
I do not want some money for the pvp rank
I do not want supbar-item sets compared to pve-content.
I do want my pvp rank (not the campain-end position) to be "more relevant" for my char in terms of passive abilities! (see: Dark Age of Camelot realm ranks)

Be patience, i think there will be something also for pvp, you must recognize that the majority of the players are not like me and you , ex Daoc player and pvp oriented, Anyway There will be new Alliance War abilities.
Try to make a pool, for every ppl like me and you hardcore pvp players, there will be 20 ppl that say no and don t like a deep pvp progression.

Audigy wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Rewarding time played vs skill is a fatal design flaw that will kill the longevity for the game in regards to newer players.

What will happen with the champion system is only the current players will continue playing a ridiculous grind and all new players the come after will quickly realize there's no point in trying to catch up. This is what happened to WoW and the way they corrected the issue was each expansion dumbs the game down even more. Nov 17th will see the death of wow with the game becoming fully moron proof and accessible by anyone at any age.

ZOS think deeper into this idea....why would a new player want to play your game or take part in PvP with players leagues above them in stats/gear

Actually the whole point of the champion system is to balance that problem.
1. There are the hardcore players that devote all their time to the game and feel they should be rewarded for such. The problem is this creates a bigger and bigger gap between the hardcore player and the casual player (vertical progression if you will).
3. The casual player hates the fact they are penalised because they have a life to lead, cant keep up and simply get dominated by hardcore players that rely on greater power rather than greater skill (horizontal progression if you will).

These two camps are diametrically opposed. The solution is to use a tangent curve instead of linear progression.
Y axes = XP (just scale up or down as required)
X axes = Level (angle really....but you can scale level as you like)
It will take an infiite amount of time to hit level 90 allowing people with less time to get to level 85 quickly. There wont be much of a difference between a level 85 and level 90 player (5%). No one can hit 90 anyway.

As you can see progression is reasonably linear through the lower levels (vertical progression). As you reach higher level the curve gets much steeper and requires much more XP to progress (horizontal progression). This stops the runaway condition of vertical progression. This principle can be applied to anything.

So basically the lower level is when you are training and developing your toon (power). As you approach max level that power stabilises and your skills diversify (skill).

This new system will end this game. I'm sorry but it will. I find it hard to explain what I see. People are blinded by endless progression and current players are excited for more stuff to do but my point goes unanswered....

If the champion system has been out a few months now...and I just joined the game...it wouldn't take long for me to realize I can never compete with the top. This is a huge problem. Of course kids who have no life and play 12 hrs+ per day deserve to have a little edge. But this edge WilL be leaps and bounds.

The advantage that players who have played for longer, and more seriously will be things like +10% to max magicka. 10% really isn't that much of a difference, and a new/casual player should expect to be beaten by a old/hardcore player.

No one would want to play the game seriously if a brand new player who spends 1-2 hours a day can easily kill someone who spends 10+ hours playing.

I doubt your 10% are correct but even if they would, do you know what 10% more DPS mean?

It means that if you don't have it you are out from any type of group content because nobody will accept you in his group.

And that 10% are a world in pvp is I think not even necessary an explanation.

The issue however is that its all going to about XP and this means time. This isn't about playing the game and then getting stronger by doing so, its about exploiting the same 1-2 grind spots at Craglorn and this is horrible for an MMO or any game as big as ESO.

Developers make hundreds of mobs, maps, npcs and in the end players wont see all of this as these 1-2 grind spots will matter and nothing else.

Power gamers will do as you say, the rest wont and they wont care. This change is going to let them take part in end game content from level 50 onwards, not VR 14 onwards, that's what will matter to people.

I think its only going to be 2-3% more of anything that a hardcore power gamer can gain over other players, that's only going to matter at the cutting edge, which is the top 1% of players.

I have actually found this player base to be far less elitist than the forums, I have never been kicked from a group, nor seen anyone kicked from a group.

The only place that that 2-3% will be make or break, will be trials and they are not done by the vast majority of players.

Not certain how this is going to play out or what a player's/account access to given skills will be but I'm skeptical if of any design that pools Health and Speed as apposed to Stamina and Speed. If the stealth bonus is actually significant enough to make a difference It might work but I'm thinking rogue types are once again getting the short end of the stick here.

If the trees are exclusive once "chosen" I can see this being problematic.

and by the way,
does any one know the answer to this question?
will we be able to see the entire tree and all of the posibilites available? or will the tree options per skill only be able to be seen as per unlock?
i sure as hell hope we will be able to see the entire tree and where we wish to lead ourselves in the certain tree we wish to progress because i do not want to spend months on end researching every single option to find what build or skills i want and what fits my play style better. and having to respec and rebuild every few days just because i could not see what the actual path led me to in skills.
i want to be able to know what im puting points into and why im doing it.

Dominoid wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

and by the way,
does any one know the answer to this question?
will we be able to see the entire tree and all of the posibilites available? or will the tree options per skill only be able to be seen as per unlock?
i sure as hell hope we will be able to see the entire tree and where we wish to lead ourselves in the certain tree we wish to progress because i do not want to spend months on end researching every single option to find what build or skills i want and what fits my play style better. and having to respec and rebuild every few days just because i could not see what the actual path led me to in skills.
i want to be able to know what im puting points into and why im doing it.

In the audio they said all stars would be visible (spec'ed would look different naturally) and they would have tooltips at all times.

awesome, ty for answer.

On the whole it looks very exciting. One question though: Right now I'm capable of being both a DD and a tank + PvP spec. With this specialization in the constellations will that make me choose between say.. +5% block mitigation OR +5% sneak speed (as an example) because then it becomes a choice of which role you really want to commit to.

I like the variety because one day I get bored of being a DD and fancy tanking, or vice versa.