Champion System to Add 25,200 HOURS of Character Advancement

Tyr

Guppet wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

So someone that plays for hours on end everyday is going to be way OP than someone who plays more part time (in regards pvp)? At the moment, if you're v14 and you go 1 on 1 with another v14, you know you're equal, the only thing setting you apart is the class and skills. There's nothing your opponent has at v14 that you can't also have.

At the moment there's a level cap and once people reach it, classes aside, its an even playing field. It sounds like this champion system has no end, so those that can put in the hours to grind are going to have a huge advantage in Cryodiil. Am I seeing this right?

Also launched with the champin system will be "the constellations crate", buyable in the ESO store for £8.99. Contains 40 champion points and a chance at a rare mount.

That may be overly cynical, but it could happen.

lol there is no cash shop at all and literally no mention of even basic character change timetable yet. Saying this "could" happen is a technically true, but it's a HUGE stretch.

Dominoid

Skizer78 wrote: »

I am not sure whether or not anyone is actually listening to the Guild Summit recordings but from listening to them I can tell that many of the comments here are from people who have not. There are many things I could try to clarify but I believe that many people have tried just that and from reading them I understand what they are trying to say. What I will say is that from what I have heard, the Veteran system will still be here while the Champion system is being implemented. To strip away the Veteran system in one update would have a drastic effect on gameplay that they have decided to replace it over time as the Champion system is solidifying itself among the players. They also commented that they could put many things in place of the Veteran system but as of yet have not come to a decision on what that may be. I think that if any one has any doubts as to how this system is gonna to play out they might want to listen to the records of the Guild Summit and get a little understanding as to what they are unclear of.

Why do that when you can blindly speculate?

Tyr

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Just my impression...

Seems like a way overly complicated system.

Also seems to take away achievements that many players have worked hard for and doesn't appear to give anything back of equal or better value from what was taken away. Seems like a bait-and-switch scheme to me.

For example, I've been playing the game daily since pre-release at end Mar/begin Apr. During the workweek, I play maybe 1 hr mornings, then about 2-3 hrs evenings. More hrs on weekends. Don't know what it all boils down to in total hrs, but the time spans six months and counting.

There were 4320 hours between Mar 30 and Oct 1 (180 days). If I arbitrarily use 4 as the average number of hours played per day, that should give an example 45 hours (if my math is correct).

During this time, I've managed to get my 1st character to vr14. Currently she's started Rivenspire zone of Cadwell's Gold. My 2nd is a new vr5 doing Cadwell's Silver. I've worked hard on these two characters and feel that if ZoS knocks them back to level 50, all of my veteran rank effort will be for nothing. Near as I understand it, my estimated 45 hrs played will translate to 45 CP, but I can't spend them all at once in any way I choose due to the restrictive rotation scheme that will take a couple of YEARS to complete.

Seems like the CP scheme will force people to go backwards to 50 and start the vet ranks all over again by a different name with the passive thing supposedly being the sweetener.

I've already completed vr14 and vr5 on two characters. Why would I want to go backwards to level 50 again? Especially since the CP system seems like a never ending chase for passives.

Well no, the devs said that people are staying at the same VR levels for something like 25 hours so worst case scenario at VR14 plus your VR5 character, you'll have a few hundred CP.
Also to get the 100 point passive unlocks on every constelation, you'll only need about 900 CP.
My impression is you'll be closer to 900 than 45 when it converts.

Tyr

Sindala wrote: »

So this game is going to become like EVE? Is that how i'm reading it?

Great game but unless you have been here since the get go you will always be fodder for the vets with no way to equal them?
Like EVE is set up now where new players can join the game but they will NEVER be at the same level as those Vets. Thus there is 2 games in EVE, one for vets and one for everyone else.

We need ACTUAL facts from Devs about stuff like this not just 3rd party replies, good post but it should not be a players job to report stuff being implemented into the game.
That's just a cheap ass shot from Zeni to see how it will be received then if its bad they step in and say 'actually that's not how its going to happen, we never said that'.

School yard stuff Zeni. Do you think we are all 15 years old and have never seen this sort of stuff before??

It's really simple...after the first 10 points in a passive, there is a plateau at .1% for every point added after that.

More than half of the passives are redundant or have only horizontal benefits(blades damage vs blunt damage vs bows, etc...).
So for any particular build you'll only need about 1/3(12) of the passives filled with 10 points.
You would reach the first major inflection point of power separation between players at at 120 points.
Even if you somehow needed all 36 for some multi-weapon multi-build loadout, You'd only get that first inflection point at 360 points.

The next major inflection point point is the 50 point passives(450 points)
and the next one is the 100 point passives(900 points).
However both the 50 point passives and 100 point passive include things that don't effect player performance at all like crafting bonuses, so they are pretty small in totality.

Further and the BIGGEST point to be made is that the devs have said that the MAX contribution to stats overall fromt he champion system is about %24.

In other words, for players with at least 1 VR14 character, they will already be withing 90+% of what layers that spent literally thousands of hours more time will ever be able to achieve.

Tyr

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Since most posters on this thread see the CP system as a positive change, can anyone explain the benefits of this system to me? From my perspective, there are several powerful negatives, but the positives escape me despite having read every post on this thread so far. Although I have others, my two main concerns are these:

1. I don't like the sense that something I've worked hard for over more than six months will be taken away from me, and that what replaces it is just some semi-restricted near endless chase for passives. I've already worked for the millions of XP my characters have earned. Why do I need to start working all over again for something basically already achieved?

2. What should I do about my current characters and where they are in Cadwell's Gold and Silver? Is it worth continuing to try to finish those achievements? My main is vr14 working through Gold and my alt is vr5 working through Silver. If the vr system goes away, what happens to Cadwell's G/S, which exists only to provide content for +50 characters? I also have a level 4 Dragon Knight that I haven't progressed precisely because the impact of the CP system is uncertain.

The CP system will fundamentally change the nature of this game. Maybe it will work out great, but right now I just don't see the positives, so this is the first time I'm thoroughly discouraged to continue playing.

Cadwell's gold/silver will still be a fast way to gain CP, so If you interested in the story I think it's worth completing.

Wolfenbelle

@Dominoid, @Nihil, @Merlin13KAGL, @Tyr - Thank you for your informative responses to my post.

@Spectrasoul - You nailed another big concern. What will the CP be based on? Some have said hours played. Others have said on XP points and/or achievements earned. If it's purely hours played, I can see a serious issue with basic fairness. An example in round numbers: Player A and Player B have both played 50 hours with only one character.

Player A has read every book, explored every nook and cranny, and leveled their character slowly. So Player A did not fill their journal with lots of achievements even though the character is now at vr1.

Player B's journal is packed with achievements accomplished because they have done every quest; all dungeons, world bosses and dolmens in the 1-50 zones; most dun., wrld boss, dolmens in vr zones; done some PvP, a couple of dungeons and quests in Craglorn; tried trials and dragonstar at least once; gotten every skyshard and lorebook in the zones they have played, etc., and leveled their character to vr14.

Yet if these two players are awarded CP based solely on hours played, Player B gets screwed out of all those achievements while Player A gets a huge bonus even though they have not hit many achievements. What's fair about that scenario?

@timidobserver - Why did you feel the need to be snarky when answering my post about CP concerns? Not only snarky, but you jumped to an incorrect conclusion. It's not that I like Cadwell's Gold. It is that CG is the current system of progressing with a +50 character. It's what people have already invested time and effort in to advance their characters, so if ZoS plans to take it away, whatever they replace it with must be of equal or greater value to what players have already achieved. To do anything less than that is genuine bait-and-switch. To my way of thinking, it's vitally important that players make their concerns known rather than just simply react blindly to the next shiny new thing.

Nihil

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

In addition to the below, I understand the 'multiply everything by 10' factor to make things more visible, but, aside from rounding down, % increases/decreases with mathematically have the exact same effect.

Instead of the boss w/8000 hp, he'll now how 80k hp. But you'll also hit 10 times harder - so will he.

The only thing that will truly go up by a factor of 10 is the complaining.

People ***** about 1000 pt shields now, just wait until they see a 10,000 pt shield. Though mathematically the same, the perception will not be.

Expect 10x more trolls, 10x more nerf requests. (And 10x more polls...Yeah!)

First not trying to argue with you but thought of this info on my overnight and decided to expand on this. While "all stats will be multiply by 10" This wont mean that if you currently have 2.5k magika it will 25k, or if you have 190 weapon power it will be 1900. (next part quoted from tamriel foundry summit review)
"All your character’s stats, attributes, and damage values will be multiplied by 10 (for example, a Health of 2,500 would become a Health of 25,000). This will allow small percentage bonuses to realize a visible impact on your character’s stat lines."

What has been said already

"Soft caps are being removed entirely."

This will already alter damage / hp / weapon viability (duel wielding caping at soft cap earlier then anyother and how it will work with other weapon power enhancing skills"

"Impose some limits – for example, Armor (Physical resistance) caps out at 50% mitigation. On live right now, this would equate to roughly 3,000 armor."

Later also mentioned not being able to stack multiple armor buffs, weakening of light armor yea?

"Each source of benefit to a certain stat has it’s own caps. For example, buffs, equipment, traits, and more will each have their own independent maxima to contributing towards the overall limit."

This is the main point I remembered, if their are caps on buffs / equipment/ traits will mean that you will not see a strait 10x increase. As some buffs (crit surge for weapon damage will most likely have a cap)

"Once these changes are in place, the numbers in abilities, items, enchantments, weapons, etc… will all need to be changed."

This implies to me that enchantments base will be lowered (say 72 stam becomes 60, random numbers) then multipled by 10 (600).

"Compute rate limits (DPS and damage prevention)"

This computation will make it harder for people to max out dps (if done to prevent min maxing) as we currently have it, so I expect to see a drop in dps in comparison to enemies health.

"Adjust NPC and monster stats and abilities"
They actually never said they are multiplying monsters health by 10, only characters stats. So these new monters will be based around the new dps calculations and character hp. How they decide to balance this could make PVE easier or harder.

In all reality stats don't appear to really being multiplied by strait 10, only being increased so we can notice the difference in the smaller %. And it is possible that the percentage of health increase will not be equal to the percentage of damage increased based on these quotes

Merlin13KAGL

@Nihil‌ , Good points. I realize there will be other limiting factors involved. My personal belief is that a programmer missed a decimal point somewhere and it's easier to leave it that way.

My main point was that 101% of something at x1 scale is the very same as 101% of something at x10 scale (relative to the original amount).

I shudder to think of the balance issues that can potentially be caused on a grander scale. Suppose it will make certain things easier to fine tune, though. Gives Devs a wider grey area.

The other thing that comes to mind is http://youtu.be/1fbMQ5Z2lN4

timidobserver

Cogo wrote: »

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Is it confirmed PvP campaign buffs won't pass into PvE in the future? That would be amazing, if so!

Not confirmed, but read the guild summit. It's very likely.

If this does happen then PVPers will suddenly be complaining about low population because all of the people that PVP solely to maintain their buffs will have no incentive to PVP.

@Wolfenbelle‌
My attitude is because it seems like you want them to put rank immersion into Cadwell's gold as a higher concern than fixing a system that the majority of players dislike. You come off as the sort of person that doesn't like change for the sake of disliking change.

With regard to losing something you worked for, if you read the guild summit information, it does say that you will be compensated with Champion Points for any veteran levels gained on any character on your account up to a certain cap that most people won't reach. So, in the new system anyone that has actively played multiple characters through the veteran experience will be given an advantage over everyone else.

NordJitsu

If ZOS expects it to take an hour to earn a champion point, I assume that the grinders will be getting one every 10 minutes.

Nihil

@Merlin13KAGL , yea I know XD the only mathematical point of doing it is for the stats you are restricted by integers for (damage, hp, magika, and stamina) if you are just multiplying everything by 10 all things will stay in the same ratio, which most people who have a understanding of math should easily see.

Cogo

When will it sink in that no Vet player "looses" any levels?
You are level 50, with X ranks. Your rank gets replaced with equal champion points AND a skill point per rank. Those not at rank 14, will get 14 skill points as well.

Patch 1.5 removes Veteran points with Exp, which Vet rank 14 players will keep earning.

Can people not read?

Stop getting your info from players! Including myself. Get info from what Zenimax saying.

thelordoffelines

I didn't read through all five pages so idk if this had been answered but..
As someone who doesn't like to leave cyrodiil that much, does anyone know if it will be viable to earn champion points in pvp or I'll have to go grind in pve to make any progress?

Tyr

thelordoffelines wrote: »

I didn't read through all five pages so idk if this had been answered but..
As someone who doesn't like to leave cyrodiil that much, does anyone know if it will be viable to earn champion points in pvp or I'll have to go grind in pve to make any progress?

they are considering awarding CP thorugh other objectives in Cyrodiil but nothing decided on for sure.

The main way to earn xp in cyrodiil will be doing stuff in the imperial city.
Other than that, the regular XP you gain will get you CP.

Goibot

Any way you dice it I think we are going to see a big drop in the player base.

Dominoid

Goibot wrote: »

Any way you dice it I think we are going to see a big drop in the player base.

The opposite. This will bring back more than will leave because of CHANGE.

Natjur

Will be interesting to see how the current grid spots become once you have the champion system in place. There will be fights over the bugged spots

Dominoid

Natjur wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how the current grid spots become once you have the champion system in place. There will be fights over the bugged spots

They need to put some kind of governor on Champion Points per hour. That's all I know.

thewisguyub17_ESO

I really do like the direction Zeni is taking with this. The main reason that I've been excited about ESO since they started talking about their intent years ago was the promise that it would not just be a race to end-game raiding.
Please understand, I know A LOT of people do enjoy that and that's fine (in fact I hope they continue to add such content for people that do like it), but that's not what I enjoy in a game. To finally see casual, solo/small group play embraced by an MMO is awesome.
Which leads me to my main concern about this new system. It's great in concept, but with the amount of time for advancement it promises, it will be a rather hollow reward indeed if there isn't new content in which to spend that time... I am worried here about the old-school WoW mind numbing tedium that was late-game faction-grinding... WoW's initial stab at high-end solo content.
This new system will really mean nothing if it locks you into repeating the same content over and over again (either end-game with a main, or replaying low-level content on an alt).
I don't want to be a Debby-Downer, so I will end with the fact that I fully expect Zeni will continue to periodically add new content. I would just like to voice my sincere hope that a good portion of it will be casual solo/small group content.

Wolfenbelle

@timidobserver - You responded to me by saying, "My attitude is because it seems like you want them to put rank immersion into Cadwell's gold as a higher concern than fixing a system that the majority of players dislike. You come off as the sort of person that doesn't like change for the sake of disliking change."

Wrong on both counts. I hate the Cadwell's Gold thing. I don't enjoy questing because it's so repetitive, but if a player wants the skill points and wants to level up their character without constantly grinding, then what other choice is there? Hmmm? As for disliking change, that old over-used strawman doesn't work as a means to bully people into silence anymore. It's just silly to claim that because a person sees potential problems with a proposed change it means they don't like change.

The fact is that ZoS is taking away something players have worked for and are planning to replace what's being removed with a different points scheme. The new scheme might turn out to be wonderful, or it might not. Time will tell. In the meantime, seems to me it's smart for players to raise questions and concerns now rather than whine later if the change turns out to be a mess.

Sindala

Cogo wrote: »

When will it sink in that no Vet player "looses" any levels?
You are level 50, with X ranks. Your rank gets replaced with equal champion points AND a skill point per rank. Those not at rank 14, will get 14 skill points as well.

Patch 1.5 removes Veteran points with Exp, which Vet rank 14 players will keep earning.

Can people not read?

Stop getting your info from players! Including myself. Get info from what Zenimax saying.

That would be great.....except Zenimax aren't saying ANYTHING like normal.

timidobserver

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

@timidobserver - You responded to me by saying, "My attitude is because it seems like you want them to put rank immersion into Cadwell's gold as a higher concern than fixing a system that the majority of players dislike. You come off as the sort of person that doesn't like change for the sake of disliking change."

Wrong on both counts. I hate the Cadwell's Gold thing. I don't enjoy questing because it's so repetitive, but if a player wants the skill points and wants to level up their character without constantly grinding, then what other choice is there? Hmmm? As for disliking change, that old over-used strawman doesn't work as a means to bully people into silence anymore. It's just silly to claim that because a person sees potential problems with a proposed change it means they don't like change.

The fact is that ZoS is taking away something players have worked for and are planning to replace what's being removed with a different points scheme. The new scheme might turn out to be wonderful, or it might not. Time will tell. In the meantime, seems to me it's smart for players to raise questions and concerns now rather than whine later if the change turns out to be a mess.

Okay, I could have sworn that you said "Why would I want to go backwards to level 50 again" on page 2. Then on a later page you said "I don't like the sense that something I've worked hard for over more than six months will be taken away from me." Then you later said you are "discouraged from playing." These things lead me to me to believe that you dislike the changes because why would something you like or are neutral about discourage you from playing? After all of that, you respond calling the idea that you dislike the changes a strawman?

Done responding to you since you are the type of person that just throws out terms like "strawman" as a standalone defense without even explaining how or why something is a strawman. Just calling it a strawman is a good enough refutation for you.

AngryNord

Cogo wrote: »

When will it sink in that no Vet player "looses" any levels?
You are level 50, with X ranks. Your rank gets replaced with equal champion points AND a skill point per rank. Those not at rank 14, will get 14 skill points as well.

Patch 1.5 removes Veteran points with Exp, which Vet rank 14 players will keep earning.

Can people not read?

Stop getting your info from players! Including myself. Get info from what Zenimax saying.

Wonder what'll happen to the mobs and bosses, though? Given that non-VR players in non-VR campaigns in Cyrodiil still face VR5 mobs...

trimsic_ESO

@Dominoid‌
I think you made a misinterpretation of what was said, and as far as I remember we can spend 700 champion points in each group of constellations, possibly all these 700 points in the same star of the same constellation.

So the total number of points shall be 3 * 700 = 2100, which is already large enough: 1 hour for each point, 20 hours per week => more than 100 weeks are required to reach this limit.

Merlin13KAGL

AngryNord wrote: »

Wonder what'll happen to the mobs and bosses, though? Given that non-VR players in non-VR campaigns in Cyrodiil still face VR5 mobs...

@AngryNord‌

I suspect the Battle-leveled-to-VR1 (L50, for those that want to get techical) non-VR players in the non-VR campaigns (Non-VR because you don't run into VR2+ players) will run into the L50 + champion pointed equivalent of VR5 NPC's.

Bosses and mobs will still be higher or lower than your character the same as they are now. They will just be listed a different way.

As the CP system has potential for many various character build combinations, I suspect the same for the NPC's. Some new mechanics would nice to see. Something more than ice barriers and "Move to Flank."

I'd love to see them put some more love into the NPC AI, even if it's only activated randomly. That's a note for another topic.

The relative difficulty, HP difference, Armor difference, Damage difference, etc, will effectively be unchanged.

Dudis

I didn't read any previous posts but i'm fine with this.

You're not supposed to grind all the way to max before you can start playing, let go of that old wow mentality now.

Personally I prefer comparing this to the pvp ranking system from DAoC (Realm Ranks). Each rank gave you one point to spend in whatever you liked and they were easy to get at first but got tougher and tougher as you ranked up.
It took something like 8 years for the first guy to hit the highest rank.

It's a neverending carrot you can chase and something this game needs imo.

Dominoid

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Dominoid‌
I think you made a misinterpretation of what was said, and as far as I remember we can spend 700 champion points in each group of constellations, possibly all these 700 points in the same star of the same constellation.

So the total number of points shall be 3 * 700 = 2100, which is already large enough: 1 hour for each point, 20 hours per week => more than 100 weeks are required to reach this limit.

Some who were there said they said something different at dinner along the lines of what you said, but it wasn't Maria who said it as she wasn't at dinner. I have asked Maria for clarification but haven't heard back. The linked audio in the OP on that point clearly says what I represent. Either way, it's a lot.

Tankqull

NordJitsu wrote: »

If ZOS expects it to take an hour to earn a champion point, I assume that the grinders will be getting one every 10 minutes.

this - they were wrong in any timeframe estimation so far its horrible...

the only way to actually achiev their goal is by connecting the gain of C-points to beeing activly IG. not to a specific action you are doing.
a bit similar to the EvE system. to keep casuals and hardcores slightly together they need aswell apply a day cap of lets say 4points a day.

but that will not happen ... so have fun every one to grind the *** out of the game the first few weeaks to achiev CL-xyz to be slightly able to handle the constraints required by raid leaders or for beeing competitive in pvp.

Wolfenbelle

@timidobserver -- You responded to me: "These things lead me to believe that you dislike the changes because why would something you like or are neutral about discourage you from playing? After all of that, you respond calling the idea that you dislike the changes a strawman?"

When a person expresses concerns about the METHOD of change, that does not automatically mean they dislike change itself. Get it? I do see the CP system as taking away what we've already earned and replacing it with a different system. Why? Because that's exactly what it is.

Regarding the strawman thing, when you accuse someone of not liking change because they express concerns about the method of coming changes, that is the very definition of a strawman. "A strawman is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument." source: Wikipedia

So I'll say it again: My impression of the CP system so far is that it's overly complicated and appears to force players to reacquire something they already have achieved by a different method. CP is supposedly based on hours played, not XP earned. I see inherent unfairness in that method. All of us have earned some number of XP, but that will be ditched and only hours played will be converted to CP we then have to "spend" on passives. But when and how we spend it is restricted to rotating "constellations." Plain and simple, what that means is what we've already earned is NOT free to use by us at will, which supposedly was the original plan.

rlbolab14a_ESO

I keep seeing people posting about the amount of week's/months/years to get all points. I don't understand why people are applying time to it since it's a matter of experience gain and not time played? I see people comparing this new system to EQ (which I still play from time to time) and it's AA system and honestly, I can get 800 AA's in a week with my Shadowknight Swarming, or about 500 to 600 AA's a week with my ranger using headshot (use to be more but headshot only works on single targets since last years patch). It's all about grinding the experience and here on ESO we already do that with AOE builds and Craig grind groups. There will be people capping this in less then a month.

What I don't understand is why the diminishing returns. The idea is to get stronger like EQ's AA system. With this system your really not getting any stronger after X amount of points which means there really isn't a need to 'grind' all that much. Or am I missing something? I'm not going to go grind just so I can have a .01 boost over another player, for that I'll be out looking for a weapon or armor or something that gives me a better boost then .01%. So after the first 100-200 points, what's the point of continuing the grind?