twev wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

From my perspective, the sneak mode is not a crouch position when moving. It's more like the running position you see a sprinter make as they are coming out of the sprint blocks in a race about half way from the start position and the full out sprint position.

From my perspective, the sneak mode is a crouch position when moving because that's exactly HOW the sneaker stealths, by crouching and being unobtrusive...

Otherwise, the stealther is just using a frame of mind skill and not a physical skill which cost a skill point and has any basis at all other than you just want it to.
With that point allowed, we might as well make arrow snipe take exactly the same time and motion as regular arrow time and motion if 'snipe' is just a state of mind that you paid a skill point for.

You might be misunderstanding my use of the word perspective. I'm not using it as a frame of mind, but actually what I see when I move while sneaking. It's not a crouch position. It's a sprint position.

Maybe ZOS needs to change the animation visual that others see when we move in sneak mode using this armor set and buffs.

This is only a visual problem for people in the same alliance, because once you're spotted by the other alliances, the armor set buff is no longer a factor and you slow down to a regular sneak speed. You are also crouching.

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I have been playing a NB vamp as my main since release. If you can invis/vanish+crouch+move away without being detected long enough to drop out of combat, then you are already safe, and do not need the set bonus to save you.

Not really - at that point a detect potion or magelight user might get lucky and move in the right direction, but with super speed, that won't be an issue.

All it takes is one sorc spamming bolt escape to pull you out.

Responses against the change in this thread:

- The movement speed is what makes vampires useful and balances the negatives. Take it away, and they won't be worth it.

- A player is spending a five-piece bonus to get this, which is such a significant penalty because the rest of the gear set is completely useless. Any player sacrificing that much isn't able to really compete with others who don't use this gear set.

- If you take away the stacking ability, you MUST do it with absolutely every other form of stacking in the game, because that is only fair to those few players who supposedly ARE stacking these bonuses.

- Because it's a vampire, it SHOULD be able to move faster than a horse while also completely invisible to enemy combatants. If you take it away, vampires won't feel special.



The few responses I've seen for the change in this thread:

- It doesn't make sense for any character to move faster while stealthed and completely invisible to enemy combatants than while not.

- The stacking bonuses aren't actually removing the movement penalty, but instead are surpassing standard movement rates due to an obvious error in the math.


The dev response I've seen so far in this thread:

- It's not working like it should. We will try to fix it.



I'm seeing a lot of lean here. Maybe it's because I see the problem as one, not of vampires moving fast, but of any character moving faster stealthed than not.

But it's like arguing with sword-and-board characters who leveled to VR12 doing nothing but bash. Or telling vampires that their bat swarm was completely too powerful compared to anything else.

Not a lot of fairness in the discussion. A LOT of players protecting their toys. Hopefully we can trust that ZOS has the metrics and competence to make a change for the better.

Considering that this superior speed WAS reported on PTS, not sure why it made it even to live.

If the only cool thing about being a vampire is going to be nerfed I'm going to cry. It's bad enough that we whither whenever someone sneezes fire at us.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

...
I'm seeing a lot of lean here. Maybe it's because I see the problem as one, not of vampires moving fast, but of any character moving faster stealthed than not.
...

Only vampire characters are moving faster stealthed than not.
Humans (even Nightblade humans) are not.

GnatB wrote: »

...
So, again. Fix the various stealth bonuses to be function as stacking penalty reductions, which is how it should have been implemented from the start. (Seriously, can anybody honestly say they weren't surprised to learn they actually were implemented as straight up speed multipliers?)

Vampire passive alone completely negates the sneak speed penalty.
The reason why vampires specifically are moving faster in Sneak is because all the other bonuses are factoring in at 100% of regular running speed (which is the speed a vampire travels in Sneak with no other bonuses active).

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

...
At LEAST make it a happy medium thing, where the set bonus still improves sneak speed beyond what vampire alone offers, but maybe not as much. Or better, cap sneak speed bonus to vampire plus the set bonus, so you can't add on additional things like Concealed Weapon.
...

Realistically, all they need to do is make the Night's Silence bonus and Concealed Weapon bonus run their calculations before being applied to the Vampire sneak speed.
If the calculations were run at the regular sneak speed, then added to Vampire's sneak speed penalty negation effect, they would still provide reason to use the bonuses without being as fast as they are currently.

Night's Silence is presently taking a 60% of the 100% Sneak speed of Vampire and making it into a 160% total speed.

Meanwhile, a regular human sneaks at 60% regular running speed and Night's Silence raises it up to 96% (it adds on 60% of the 60% speed for an addition of 36%)

If the 36% speed increase was calculated first, it would decrease vampire's overall speed to 136% with set equipped, without making the set useless to those that crafted it.

They really need to say how they plan to change it. Even before this set you could do vamp + concealed weapon and get basically sprint speed in sneak. It wouldn't be the end of the world if we couldn't keep up with horses but if we can't sneak fast enough to catch anyone the entire setup is pointless. Also the set is critical for actually getting a kill and getting back in to sneak in a siege situation.

It really depends how bad they plan to nerf it but the speed is the only saving grace of that horrible set everything else could be way better with a different set. Its the only reason I have vampire so I would cure that instantly, and concealed weapons alone isn't enough sneak speed bonus to matter so there would be no reason to take that morph ever they might as well just erase that morph from the game.

Samadhi wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

...
At LEAST make it a happy medium thing, where the set bonus still improves sneak speed beyond what vampire alone offers, but maybe not as much. Or better, cap sneak speed bonus to vampire plus the set bonus, so you can't add on additional things like Concealed Weapon.
...

Realistically, all they need to do is make the Night's Silence bonus and Concealed Weapon bonus run their calculations before being applied to the Vampire sneak speed.
If the calculations were run at the regular sneak speed, then added to Vampire's sneak speed cost negation effect, they would still provide reason to use the bonuses without being as fast as they are currently.

Night's Silence is presently taking a 60% of the 100% Sneak speed of Vampire and making it into a 160% total speed.

Meanwhile, a regular human sneaks at 60% regular running speed and Night's Silence raises it up to 96% (it adds on 60% of the 60% speed for an addition of 36%)

If the 36% speed increase was factored first, it would decrease vampire's overall speed to 136% with set equipped, without making the set useless to those that crafted it.

Then thats the problem, mortals aren't getting the full benefit.

Does the same thing happen with mortal + concealed weapon?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

This is very upsetting. Why shouldn't this be happening? I actually get bonuses to being a stealth class, and it gives me zero advantages in combat. and if you are just believing people that it is faster than a horse, test it yourself. It is not.

Leave the set and bonus stacking the way it is.

Really, a full-on stamina build (which I am...yep, glutton for punishment) can regen stamina so quickly, and already has a reduced cost for sneaking, such that any additional reduction to the cost of the speed sneak would hardly make a difference. I can already sneak/run without stopping at least a full minute before needing to use a potion or stop for a minute to regen. But there aren't many situations where I need to do that. Really, it's good for shard hunting in Cyrodiil, and moving from one keep to another, and that's about it. The minute another player or an enemy npc spots you though, the speed is gone.

A reduction in the cost of sneaking would be entirely negligible to anyone with a stamina build. So changing these sets to stack as cost reductions instead of speed increase will only hurt what is already the weakest build in the game. Can't ya'll just let us have one little, practically useless perk? FFS, leave us ONE good thing!

So we can run fast - but only while hidden. Since when is that some huge advantage in this game? Fact: it's not.

crislevin wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

A cap on sneak speed? The fastest horse will outrun you still --- I'VE TESTED IT. A horse that is upgraded to about 20 points in speed (without concealed weapon and with concealed weapon about 25 points in speed added), will be about the same as you... so basically any newbie from the starter zones. You are sacrificing ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL STATS of other sets, some which are AMAZING, for speed.

Go home OP, you're drunk.

This is not true, I saw some nb moving around at minimum the same speed as my level 49 speed horse.

I have 14 Level 50 horses between all of my characters (my main has horses with different purposes as do other chars I use frequently). Don't tell me about how fast it goes. I have tested this with a group of friends. It doesn't even come close to a full speed horse. It only comes close to horses that have points split between speed and anything else. Just because you have a level 49 horse doesn't mean that you have all points in speed. If you notice, I said points... not Level, but POINTS. How many points you put into that category (not including what it starts with, but how many points are in speed). That is what my comparison is.

ViciousWayz wrote: »

As of two days ago, I no longer have a Vampire character that is VR12 (however I do have one that's low level but does not use this set). However, if they are to make that passive, which a skill point was put into.. NOT stack with the Set bonus of which people are giving up other set bonuses to get, they need to take a look at all sets and all passives and make sure they don't stack for some overpowered, high spell damage, high crit, high armor, etc.... You don't just single out one which has no efficiency in combat whatsoever. You remove all from stacking with passives. Oh... that magicka regen is nice... so it won't stack with your light armor passive.

Do one, then do them all. Otherwise, leave it be. @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ I entirely believe all the sets are fine, however if you are going to nerf one when people can endlessly now spam healing springs like never before due to sets and passives, etc... then nothing should stack if you are going to take this away from the LEAST LETHAL set/passive combination in the game.

I'm quoting myself, just to reiterate my point. No sense in re-typing it all.

stewie_801 wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

A cap on sneak speed? The fastest horse will outrun you still --- I'VE TESTED IT. A horse that is upgraded to about 20 points in speed (without concealed weapon and with concealed weapon about 25 points in speed added), will be about the same as you... so basically any newbie from the starter zones. You are sacrificing ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL STATS of other sets, some which are AMAZING, for speed.

Go home OP, you're drunk.

This is not true, I saw some nb moving around at minimum the same speed as my level 49 speed horse.

I have 14 Level 50 horses between all of my characters (my main has horses with different purposes as do other chars I use frequently). Don't tell me about how fast it goes. I have tested this with a group of friends. It doesn't even come close to a full speed horse. It only comes close to horses that have points split between speed and anything else. Just because you have a level 49 horse doesn't mean that you have all points in speed. If you notice, I said points... not Level, but POINTS. How many points you put into that category (not including what it starts with, but how many points are in speed). That is what my comparison is.

And I've tested it against my friends 75% speed horse. His horse is faster than me unless I either pop a speed potion for 39% speed boost, or have rapid maneuvers on. I've heard using The Steed mundus stone with divines is also stacking with it, but I've never tried this. But even if this works with it who cares? They have to not only give up a mundus stone effect for it, but a 5piece gear set, and become a vamp. Yes you can negate the fire damage with a fire resist enchant, at the expense of a magicka recovery or spell damage enchant or whatever you use. Just vamp + nights silence + concealed weapon is not faster than pure speed horses.

I'm not sure if you read my post and the post I was replying to or not but we are already in agreement. Unless you were just confirming what I wrote with your personal experience as well? LOL

Either way, yeah there is no way to go faster than a full speed horse without any of that and also you can hit rapid maneuver then use your horse so that cancels that out.

Also steed plus divines still won't get you there unless it's not working properly --- not from my tests as that's exactly what I used when testing and a speed horse was faster.

ViciousWayz wrote: »

stewie_801 wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

A cap on sneak speed? The fastest horse will outrun you still --- I'VE TESTED IT. A horse that is upgraded to about 20 points in speed (without concealed weapon and with concealed weapon about 25 points in speed added), will be about the same as you... so basically any newbie from the starter zones. You are sacrificing ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL STATS of other sets, some which are AMAZING, for speed.

Go home OP, you're drunk.

This is not true, I saw some nb moving around at minimum the same speed as my level 49 speed horse.

I have 14 Level 50 horses between all of my characters (my main has horses with different purposes as do other chars I use frequently). Don't tell me about how fast it goes. I have tested this with a group of friends. It doesn't even come close to a full speed horse. It only comes close to horses that have points split between speed and anything else. Just because you have a level 49 horse doesn't mean that you have all points in speed. If you notice, I said points... not Level, but POINTS. How many points you put into that category (not including what it starts with, but how many points are in speed). That is what my comparison is.

And I've tested it against my friends 75% speed horse. His horse is faster than me unless I either pop a speed potion for 39% speed boost, or have rapid maneuvers on. I've heard using The Steed mundus stone with divines is also stacking with it, but I've never tried this. But even if this works with it who cares? They have to not only give up a mundus stone effect for it, but a 5piece gear set, and become a vamp. Yes you can negate the fire damage with a fire resist enchant, at the expense of a magicka recovery or spell damage enchant or whatever you use. Just vamp + nights silence + concealed weapon is not faster than pure speed horses.

I'm not sure if you read my post and the post I was replying to or not but we are already in agreement. Unless you were just confirming what I wrote with your personal experience as well? LOL

Either way, yeah there is no way to go faster than a full speed horse without any of that and also you can hit rapid maneuver then use your horse so that cancels that out.

I was agreeing with you and giving my own experience to help corroborate/confirm what you said. Sorry should've made that more plain.