Any word on the ridiculous sneak speeds?

Samadhi

MornaBaine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

Um WHAT exactly should not be happening? ...

To be honest, the only thing I have seen happening that "should not" be happening is players whining that a strictly non-combat set is making other players massively OP.
But it's happening anyway because a handful of vocal players seem to not comprehend the limitations in place on this set.

The most logical "fix" for this issue would be to reprogram the set and Concealed Weapon so that they always calculate their bonus based off of the base Sneak speed of 60% like they do for non-vampire players.
Currently both effects calculate their bonuses off of 100% of running speed, because Vampire negates the Sneak speed penalty and already Sneaks at the same speed as running speed when no other bonuses are applied.
Changing the calculations to be made based off of the base Sneak speed would reduce the speed bonuses for vampire considerably, while still allowing them to be used by vampire players instead of barring vampire players from using the set or Concealed Weapon slotted bonus. This method would also not harm the non-vampire players that are using these bonuses and not even moving near Sprint speed already.

Saet

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

LOL. Whoever runs the testing department is a complete imbecile. We made mention of these speeds stacking on the PTS and I even asked to get help testing them but was told that wouldn't be fair to help me get items that other players didn't get. So now you are going to nerf it because some people are complaining. We still cant catch a sorc. We dont get to stun people as we run through them, we are slowed to a crawl because we are being seen. Our speed is defense only whereas a sorc can use theirs offensively as well on a whole zerg of people.
Yet another waste of expensive crafting materials. I'm so over the incompetency of this company.

Samadhi

Saet wrote: »

... We still cant catch a sorc. We dont get to stun people as we run through them, we are slowed to a crawl because we are being seen. Our speed is defense only whereas a sorc can use theirs offensively as well on a whole zerg of people.
...

Technically, the speed bonus is for out of combat travel only.

The Night's Silence speed bonus is completely lost when a player enters into combat, and cannot be reactivated until the player is completely out of combat.
Nothing about this speed bonus can actually be used for defense. A player must use other defensive tactics to get far enough out of combat for this set to activate again; and at that point it is, once again, only a non-combat mobility bonus.

Phinix1

Samadhi wrote: »

How is Sorcerers having to wear a particular gear set in order to gain mobility from BE any different from Nightblades having to go vampire, wear a certain (inferior for combat) set and slot a particular (inferior for combat) skill morph to gain mobility though?

How is it different? Simple.

The Nightblade can only use the end result OUT OF COMBAT.

@ZOS_GinaBruno: Better nerf that quick. Forget about balancing stamina.

THIS IS PRIORITY! XD

MornaBaine

Samadhi wrote: »

Saet wrote: »

... We still cant catch a sorc. We dont get to stun people as we run through them, we are slowed to a crawl because we are being seen. Our speed is defense only whereas a sorc can use theirs offensively as well on a whole zerg of people.
...

Technically, the speed bonus is for out of combat travel only.

The Night's Silence speed bonus is completely lost when a player enters into combat, and cannot be reactivated until the player is completely out of combat.
Nothing about this speed bonus can actually be used for defense. A player must use other defensive tactics to get far enough out of combat for this set to activate again; and at that point it is, once again, only a non-combat mobility bonus.

Completely agreed. And, as such, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE "FIXED!" Leave it the frak alone Zen!

naatokb14_ESO

First, if ZOS nerfs the set bonuses by making it so race/vamp/ww passives won't stack with them, I'm going to hate on all you whiners. Two reasons:

First, I don't hear any complaints from the lot of you when your passives and set bonuses stack to burn my vampire character to ash with a single crit hit in PvP, even though my character was at FULL and FOOD AUGMENTED health!

Second, vampires are supposed to be faster, stronger and more agile than normal men and mer. The Night's Silence set specifically addresses this quite nicely as is. So my character moves faster than horses whose speed hasn't been buffed by that particular feeding. So what?! That is as should be!

And let's face it...once I am even "suspected" of being in the area by game code mechanics (when my stealth eye opens at all), the Night's Silence set speed buff drops completely and will not reactivate until I am fully stealthed again.

If you people can't find something to do other than attempting to ruin someone else's enjoyment of this game because you're a clueless n00b in PvP, your inane complaints WILL destroy this game...just like the inane complaints have destroyed nearly every other MMO in existence.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

So this is weird, I lost the post but someone bumped a thread recently where jessica folsom thanked them for noting the bug with concealed weapon not applying speed properly. The night's silence set stacking as it does was mentioned and everything. So there are mixed reports, and while I guess I should take the most recent one as the most accurate, I find it hard to believe it is not working as intended originally.

I don't think it is a very good business practice to cave anytime people get vocal about something they feel is overpowered. Especially when the devs outright ignore fixing problems with other skills or doing something, anything about skills with significant imbalances.

They are just cherry picking things to change to modify based on the loudest voices in the room. Some of which flat out lie about the effectiveness of this set + passives.

This is unacceptable. And the lack of response to the problems this has created in this thread after making a vague drive by post is just bad all around.

Phinix1

Saet

Samadhi wrote: »

Technically, the speed bonus is for out of combat travel only.

The Night's Silence speed bonus is completely lost when a player enters into combat, and cannot be reactivated until the player is completely out of combat.
Nothing about this speed bonus can actually be used for defense. A player must use other defensive tactics to get far enough out of combat for this set to activate again; and at that point it is, once again, only a non-combat mobility bonus.

True. I misspoke. Its for travel only. The only defense it provides is trying to dodge the huge impulse zergs coming your way nonstop.

dodgehopper_ESO

This set isn't the best thing in the world for combat. If you're already in combat, you're stuck at slow speed. If you're not in combat, who cares? All it means is that night silence 5 piece vampire nightblade concealed can sneak at run speed. What is so offensive about that? This is not something easy to use. If you're going to cry nerf for this, I want to see nerfs on all the infinite magicka reduction/recharge combinations out there that make it possible to spam your strongest abilities forever. What do you think is more gamebreaking? Additionally, your sneak drops if you're spotted, and how many mages have inner light? Hmmmm ALL OF THEM? Seriously, this is a pretty ridiculous thing to cry about. If someone is willing to risk their neck to fighters guild, fire, and have crappy regen and crappy bonuses, I say more power to them. The only thing I don't like about this set, is that I think a Berserker Orc Running should have a set that lets him run significantly faster than your sneaking nightblade vampire. Beyond that I really don't care.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Yea no more set stacking with passives if they nerf this imo, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

naatokb14_ESO

If your Berserker Orc can move fast, it is my not so humble opinion...based entirely upon the Elder Scrolls lore (particularly ESO lore)...that a non-stealthed running vampire would move much faster.

But, we can also argue how many Aedra could dance on the head of a pin until all is Aetherius again. My main point is being sick and tired of all the whiners picking extremely inane things to whine about, and typically ruining MMORPGs because they haven't the wit or will to think of a better way to not suck in PvP/PvE.

I think your discussion of magicka reduction/recharge and the insane power that gives is right on the money! As I hinted at before. It is quite disconcerting to be at full health with a health food bonus putting my HP at over 2800, only to be burned to ash by some key-punching n00b whose set, passives and cookie-cutter PvP build make for an auto critical on my vampire for nearly 5000 damage. Now THAT is ridiculous! LOL

Iorail

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This set isn't the best thing in the world for combat. If you're already in combat, you're stuck at slow speed. If you're not in combat, who cares? All it means is that night silence 5 piece vampire nightblade concealed can sneak at run speed. What is so offensive about that? This is not something easy to use. If you're going to cry nerf for this, I want to see nerfs on all the infinite magicka reduction/recharge combinations out there that make it possible to spam your strongest abilities forever. What do you think is more gamebreaking? Additionally, your sneak drops if you're spotted, and how many mages have inner light? Hmmmm ALL OF THEM? Seriously, this is a pretty ridiculous thing to cry about. If someone is willing to risk their neck to fighters guild, fire, and have crappy regen and crappy bonuses, I say more power to them. The only thing I don't like about this set, is that I think a Berserker Orc Running should have a set that lets him run significantly faster than your sneaking nightblade vampire. Beyond that I really don't care.

This a thousand times this, you start nerfing one thing, better do it to EVERYTHING!

@ZOS_GinaBruno - We are all still waiting on a clarification to your comment and also take a look at the above, take that to management as well, if one passive can't stack with a set then NO PASSIVES should stack with any sets, at all.

Phinix1

Nerf nerfing.

dodgehopper_ESO

I do have a level 18 Orcimer alt. He's a vampire. How fast should he run?

I think at the core here maybe perhaps a need to create soft/hardcaps on the stacking of all manner of passives, whether they come from gear or skills. In fact, I think this would go well with the upcoming Champion system. Balancing it would be trouble, but I'm glad that's not my job.

I also think Robes are just significantly better than everything out there. They improved heavy armor, and its certainly a start, but I think they really need to consider putting damage reduction (like the nord passive) on Heavy Armor. Medium Armor wearers should get something/anything that gives them greater punch versus light armor as well. (That or bows, swords, greatswords, etc). At any regard I think that is the arena where balance is needed, more than fast moving stealthers. Stealth is after all so much more situational.

Iorail

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Nerf nerfing.

Indeed, the basic problem to all mmo's, the nerfing or everything. And for that you get an Awesome!

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I do have a level 18 Orcimer alt. He's a vampire. How fast should he run?

I think at the core here maybe perhaps a need to create soft/hardcaps on the stacking of all manner of passives, whether they come from gear or skills. In fact, I think this would go well with the upcoming Champion system. Balancing it would be trouble, but I'm glad that's not my job.

I also think Robes are just significantly better than everything out there. They improved heavy armor, and its certainly a start, but I think they really need to consider putting damage reduction (like the nord passive) on Heavy Armor. Medium Armor wearers should get something/anything that gives them greater punch versus light armor as well. (That or bows, swords, greatswords, etc). At any regard I think that is the arena where balance is needed, more than fast moving stealthers. Stealth is after all so much more situational.

/sigh, the set affects sneaking, not running.

If you don't even know what it does, why do you have an opinion on it?

Grimmspat

I'm somewhat neutral on the topic but the stacking with the set bypasses some of the gameplay in Cyrodiil. Camp jumping aside (which there are great topics on how to fix), you typically have two choices of travel in the open world of Cyrodiil especially in enemy controlled territory. You can sneak to avoid detection but at a slower pace. Or, you can ride a horse to get there faster but be more open to gankers.

With this set, basically you get near horse speed with stealth. As a result, you can travel or intercept at the fastest speeds without being seen. Then all it takes is a click before engaging to change sets. It takes the risk outta of Cyrodiil travel without downsides.

I think there should be a trade off for stealth. I'm all for speed increases but near horse speed is a bit much. I think it speaks to a larger issue: the additive nature of bonuses in this game when I think they'd work better as multiplicative bonuses.

Personally, I think the set bonus itself would be fine if it didn't stack additively with concealed, vamp, maneuver and other bonuses.

Samadhi

Grimmspat wrote: »

...
I think there should be a trade off for stealth. I'm all for speed increases but near horse speed is a bit much. I think it speaks to a larger issue: the additive nature of bonuses in this game when I think they'd work better as multiplicative bonuses.

Personally, I think the set bonus itself would be fine if it didn't stack additively with concealed, vamp, maneuver and other bonuses.

It's worth noting that the set bonus reads 60% increase.
A non-vampire moves at 60% of running speed while they are in Sneak.
With this set on, they move at 96% of running speed while in Sneak.
The 60% set bonus is calculating as 60% of the 60% speed and ends up adding in 36%, for non-vampires.
If Concealed Weapon is added in, it performs its calculation in the same manner; it reads 25% but provides an overall 15% increase to Sneak speed, because the 25% is calculated off of the base 60% move speed of Sneak.
Both bonuses are calculated off of the base Sneak speed independently before being added together; when added together they raise a non-vampire to 111% of regular running speed while in Sneak.
If they were adding the bonuses directly, it would raise a non-vampire to 145% of regular running speed, but this is not the case.

Vampire passive negates the sneak speed penalty.
A vampire moves at 100% of running speed while they are in Sneak.
With this set on, they move at 160% of running speed while in Sneak.
Concealed Weapon provides them with 25% move speed bonus on top of that.

For non-vampires, the bonuses are all taking calculations from 60% of regular running speed, rather than adding on directly.
The reason vampires seem to be receiving it as a full direct addition is because the bonuses are taking calculations from 100% of regular running speed, which appears the same as adding on directly.

dodgehopper_ESO

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I do have a level 18 Orcimer alt. He's a vampire. How fast should he run?

I think at the core here maybe perhaps a need to create soft/hardcaps on the stacking of all manner of passives, whether they come from gear or skills. In fact, I think this would go well with the upcoming Champion system. Balancing it would be trouble, but I'm glad that's not my job.

I also think Robes are just significantly better than everything out there. They improved heavy armor, and its certainly a start, but I think they really need to consider putting damage reduction (like the nord passive) on Heavy Armor. Medium Armor wearers should get something/anything that gives them greater punch versus light armor as well. (That or bows, swords, greatswords, etc). At any regard I think that is the arena where balance is needed, more than fast moving stealthers. Stealth is after all so much more situational.

/sigh, the set affects sneaking, not running.

If you don't even know what it does, why do you have an opinion on it?

You didn't read my previous post. I'm fully aware of both what the set does and what berserker does. In my previous post I was pointing out that I felt a running Orc should be faster than a sneaking one. You need to know the flow of the conversation before commenting. I have an argonian nightblade vampire with this set that I use for farming materials. I'm WELL informed as to how this works. This isn't my main character by any stretch, but he's my gatherer (even before I had this set).

lathbury

Grimmspat wrote: »

I'm somewhat neutral on the topic but the stacking with the set bypasses some of the gameplay in Cyrodiil. Camp jumping aside (which there are great topics on how to fix), you typically have two choices of travel in the open world of Cyrodiil especially in enemy controlled territory. You can sneak to avoid detection but at a slower pace. Or, you can ride a horse to get there faster but be more open to gankers.

With this set, basically you get near horse speed with stealth. As a result, you can travel or intercept at the fastest speeds without being seen. Then all it takes is a click before engaging to change sets. It takes the risk outta of Cyrodiil travel without downsides.

I think there should be a trade off for stealth. I'm all for speed increases but near horse speed is a bit much. I think it speaks to a larger issue: the additive nature of bonuses in this game when I think they'd work better as multiplicative bonuses.

Personally, I think the set bonus itself would be fine if it didn't stack additively with concealed, vamp, maneuver and other bonuses.

I have to disagree I see the point you are making but a horse will always be faster as they keep their speed when oos. Also there are significant draw backs that I will list.
1) vulnerable to fire and fighters guild.
2)lose two slots on bar and have to take an inferior morph.
3) requires crafting and carrying 2 sets of gear so mats space costs.
4) if you have any sense you stop short of a contested keep as you would if you were mounted and equip your combat gear.

Grimmspat

lathbury wrote: »

I have to disagree I see the point you are making but a horse will always be faster as they keep their speed when oos. Also there are significant draw backs that I will list.
1) vulnerable to fire and fighters guild.
2)lose two slots on bar and have to take an inferior morph.
3) requires crafting and carrying 2 sets of gear so mats space costs.
4) if you have any sense you stop short of a contested keep as you would if you were mounted and equip your combat gear.

I agree as to number 2 as to the morph. As to 1, I'd argue vamp drawbacks are negigble compared to gains and this is why you see such a disproportionate number of vamps in pvp. Frankly, before this set bonus, I'm sure many, if not most,using this set in pvp were already vamps for the sneak speed.

As to 3, I think that's a marginal argument as to 5 slots. Finally as to 4, I was arguing more as to open world travel to a contested keep versus near the keep itself. I don't think you should be able to travel as fast as a horse in stealth. (Simple stam pots mitigate the oos at a bargain basement price)

Again, I'm not a big nerf guy. It's more I'm troubled by the additive nature of a lot of bonuses in this game. It ends up circumventing a lot of gameplay if you spec/gear a certain way.

lathbury

I wouldn't say you are circumventing a lot your stamina potion idea is good but obviously there is a cool down. So at some point your going to have to stop moving at that speed unlike a horse which is faster.
The same arguments could be and have been made about BE however to use that loads after nerf they have to sacrifice spell crit and spell power and go for full reduction and use spell pots as per your suggestion.
It's not as if you are completely invulnerable to gankers either you are far less likely to become a victim to open world ganking but any around choke points or quest nodes will more often then not have Mage light.
So the pros are near horse burst speed with reduced vulnerability to ganking for the cost of the previously mentioned drawbacks.
So my stance is the pros and cons are about even obviously some ppl disagree but I think it's a bit early to call for nerfs as it's not offering any massive in combat advantage. Having said that it seems zos have made their decision so really all points now are moot we will have to wait and see if is still a viable 3 rd option for getting around.
To clarify I used this set to have a laugh chasing my mates horse then got rid and am using Stygian and ophidian or hundings. I am just not a fan of what I think are unnecessary nerfs of anything. I would also say a lot of vamps view the sneak speed as usefull but not why they are I'm personally 1 for mana regen. Others are your bat spam or mist form fans.

kitsinni

I don't think anyone should be talking about travel speed when 1) you can suicide and appear at the keep instantly with no penalty 2) you can pop up camps that can get 100 members of your alliance to an area that doesn't even have a spawn in about a minute by camp spamming. Travel speeds are already absurd.

Also a horse will always win over distance because you are using stamina to sneak and have 0 stamina regen while doing it. Over any long distance you will have to stop multiple times or come out of sneak to regen your stamina. Also you are only faster than the non-speed fed horses unless you are using a potion or another skill to temporarily buff your speed.

I would be really surprised if more than a handful of people are using this to travel. It would be a huge pain to use it for just travel. Unless you are using concealed weapons and vampire it isn't even close to the same speed as a speed horse. That just seems like an extreme amount of work to get from point A to point B when you can suicide and do it in a few seconds with no penalty and no wasted skills or sets.

The real advantages of this set are when you are ganking you actually have a fighting chance at getting to someone and you have a chance to get away after a kill without easily being discovered. Without it you barely can get to anyone without being discovered because you are so slow either someone with mage light will come by, another stealther will be there, one of the siege weapons will pull you out or a sorc will spam bolt escape everywhere and pull you out. If you do pull off a skill this speed is the only way to make it back in to sneak without getting discovered. Otherwise you are basically crawling and they just spam impulse in the area they saw you sneak.

yelloweyedemon

The people defending the sneak speed stacking are vampire nightblades who are defending their playstyle.

None should be allowed to run that fast while sneaking, no matter what armour bonuses you give or what else you lose. Especially when sneaking is 70% of your playstyle on a solo/ganking/small group build.

eventide03b14a_ESO

kitsinni wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno it would be far better to say nothing then to come in here and leave us even more confused with the most vague possible comment about this. Now people have to wait a month wondering how their entire spec and gear is going to be completely changed. Why on Earth would you add bonuses like this if you didn't want us to take advantage of them?

Using this combo is the only reason I went back to playing my Nighblade and if you are taking away it will probably be the last time I play him in PvP and will have to regear and respec him for PvE now Very frustrating. So I can sit in sneak and never catch anyone ever and have no chance of escape after a single kill .. great sounds like a lot of fun. Well Nightblade was fun again for a very short time I guess it is time to buff DKs and Sorcs again.

I completely agree. Nightblades have really terrible defensive buffs (I would say almost non existent) compared to every other class. The only advantage we have is surprise and this set really complimented that build. People complain about Nightblades doing so much damage but in reality if we don't kill an opponent right away we are screwed. Our invisibility spell barely works and we have only one AoE CC (Aspect of Terror) that effect a whole 2 targets for a whopping 3.2 seconds and Blur is a complete joke. I honestly really liked how this set evened the playing field for my character. I had a lot of fun being able to quickly position myself even if it meant that I had to sacrifice a bonus set that gives more DPS. I am really disappointed that ZOS is taking this away from us just because people are moaning that it doesn't make sense. Despite that it's being used by vampires. It's like saying it doesn't make sense that dragons breathe fire. It's a fantasy guys and yes it actually does make sense in the context.

lathbury

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

The people defending the sneak speed stacking are vampire nightblades who are defending their playstyle.

None should be allowed to run that fast while sneaking, no matter what armour bonuses you give or what else you lose. Especially when sneaking is 70% of your playstyle on a solo/ganking/small group build.

Nice generalisation however as I already stated I don't think it's that good compared with stygians 20% damage boost from sneak. Now there's a ganking set wonder how long before the cry babies asking for nerf will get on to that. See I can generalise as well.

badmojo

Big difference between crying for a nerf, and asking if something is working as intended.

I see more crying in here from the pro-sneak stacking folks.

helediron

After using a week i can only say this armor has no practical combat value. There is no point overanalyze it. But it does have some out of combat purposes.

I use it for running to different crafting stations. Now the ogre en route to Greenspeaker's Corner is left spinning bewildered when i whoosh by. I use it when picking flowers in empty Auridon at 3 AM. Sometimes i speedrun to busy Rawl'kha - just to annoy bolt sorcs with pets that are on their way blocking the bank. Yeah, always remember the fun factor.

Before this i never thought cliff edges would be so dangerous. See that skyshard behind Ilyas Ruins ? ohshiii...... BTW the longest drop must be east of Hallin's Stand. And i can tell that there is no pool underneath like in Bard's Leap in Skyrim.

I really want to keep this armor unnerfed. Can i instead have a new small lake in Bankorai please? After saving the big lake at north i think i am entitled to a small one, right?

eventide03b14a_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Brizz wrote: »

Decimus_Rex wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Are you serious?

Super seriously.

Okay well, there is nothing wrong with it. You need 5 items, which means you are giving up a different set bonus for the speed and it still costs stamina. I'm sorry that it bothers you, but this is not something that needs correcting.

If you can't see an over powered advantage to this sets buff speed in PvP

Then your drunk and need to go home.....

Sir

Explain the advantages then, and what makes them "overpowered"

Part of the tactical nature of PvP is movement between objectives. If you are lucky enough never to have been jumped or attacked between objectives, especially after an awkward respawn or just entering the map, then I can understand if you don't see how this would be so powerful.

On a standard scale, a player much choose to move slowly between objectives, but carefully, hidden and immune to almost any ambush ... or quickly, sprinting or ideally on the back of a horse, subject to ambush and supply-line strategies.

In the event of the current line, a rather significant portion of the playerbase (if my own experiences are shared with others, I'd say more than 10% of the players I've traveled near or with, which is significant) are capable of doing both.

If this is the nature of being a vampire, and one of their advantages, then so be it. But a gear swap isn't nearly as much an issue as many make it (current user and abuser of AlphaTools, and never have any issues swapping my gear for the fight ahead, only when ambushed).

I wouldn't see anything wrong with that same player running super fast if they were visible. That, to me, would be a fair dynamic and would make me take one of my nightblades full vamp again.

You're full of it. First off all you would just use a horse if you didn't care whether you were visible. Second you lose all bonus if you are in combat just like if you were on a horse. The whole point is being able to move fast while in stealth. It's a specific build. You honestly cannot see that you are losing out on the benefits from bonuses of other sets?