[Serious] Improving this online community

KleanZlate · August 2014

Crumpy wrote: »

Good to see ZOS staff posting threads on da forums.

Yawn.

Crumpy · August 2014

Yawn at the whole *** thing

Swampster · August 2014

Basically this community would improve if everybody else would just shut up, unless of course they agree with me and what I consider as "constructive".

..seems to be about the jist of it?

ZOS_JuhoJ · August 2014

Hello there, folks. We have removed several posts from this thread for Trolling and containing Inappropriate Content. Please keep the Code of Conduct in mind when sharing your opinions. Thank you!

Alphashado · August 2014

I didn't read the entire thread. There is no need. I've seen the same thread countless other times on countless other forums.

@OP I applaud your effort, but some things will never change, and internet forum courtesy is one of them.

1. All forums are the same way. It doesn't matter if it's a game forum or a forum discussing the merit of monkeys in space.
2. There are very little or no repercussions for bad behavior on the internet. There is a 99.9999% chance that people on a forum will never meet each other in real life or even have any kind of meaningful interaction. Therefore people with bad attitudes or a general lack of respect will not think twice about being rude.
3. Chat can often be misunderstood. Unlike face to face communication or even a phone conversation, text is bereft of facial expressions or tone of voice. These things are crucial for accurate communication between humans because they portray meaning and intent. The only tool we have to achieve this are silly emotes :P
4. Lastly, a forum by it's very nature is a platform for debate. Debates tend to be heated regardless of the context or category.

All of these lead us to the cesspool that is the internet. Love it or hate it, this is what we are stuck with. And due to general human nature, it will never change.

Zubba · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

I didn't read the entire thread. There is no need. I've seen the same thread countless other times on countless other forums.

@OP I applaud your effort, but some things will never change, and internet forum courtesy is one of them......

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

Not sure what the problem is--if we're talking "how things compare in the grand scheme of things"---well, then reading some rage posts on an internet forum is not something that bothers me at all. Nor do sarcastic posts, insulting ones, or even obvious, legitimate trollish ones. Move away if it bothers you so much--there's people starving in China for god's sake.

Maybe it's all the concern-trolls who CONSTANTLY insert themselves into threads with whiny posts (mis)-labeling those who disagree with them as "trolls" --or calling anyone who employs sarcasm or humor or aggressively calls them out on a supposed fact as "rude" --- maybe THEY'RE the ones that should take the core message to heart. Lighten up--it's only a forum.

Seriously--those kind of useless hand-wringing posts end up polluting pretty much every freaking thread that has a contentious, vigorously debated topic, causing thread derails on the subject of the participant's "tone" and making me scroll past dozens of "you're mean/no, you started it" crap.

Crumpy · August 2014

I blame all the neckbeards.

Alphashado · August 2014

Zubba wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I didn't read the entire thread. There is no need. I've seen the same thread countless other times on countless other forums.

@OP I applaud your effort, but some things will never change, and internet forum courtesy is one of them......

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

Perhaps people were more courteous with a fledgling internet. But I remember playing UO 20 years ago, and there were plenty of jerks there too. I had a guy offer to give me his things because he said he was quitting the game and wanted to give his stuff to someone that would appreciate it. Then once he got me inside his house where he could attack me w/o turning red, he killed me and looted all my gear. When I asked why, he said "Because I can".

Human nature is still human nature. There are stories of war, deciet, betrayal and murder as far back as you care to look. The only thing keeping people polite was the very real possibility of getting their ass kicked for being a jerk. Or losing a job, or getting kicked out of a house etc. Repercussions.

The internet has no repercussion. Therefore we get an unrestricted version of human nature. People are people and when you throw a bunch of people into a situation where they can instantly disengage just by clicking a button, the bad apples rise to the surface.

Nazon_Katts · August 2014

I appreciate what the OP is trying to achieve, but I do believe he's going about it in the wrong direction. While it is commendable to work on keeping one's calm and improving self-command, this is on a strictly individual basis and I am not entirely convinced this would ever work out in certain group situations.

From what I've read, you are suggesting that everyone keeps their anger in check, essentially surpressing one's emotions. This, in my book, is never a good idea. Instead I'd suggest accepting the fact that we as humans are emotional beings that tend to act irrational and react accordingly. If someone loses his temper, keep your own calm so he can find his. Or vent at each other with no hard feelings, knowing that this perfectly normal human behavior.

Just have a look at your closest playing field. Chances are you'll find a whole bunch of agitated indivuals, shouting and screaming, sometimes even raging - no matter their age. But afterwards they'll shake hands, have a beer together and just continue to be friends, because they accept it's absolutely normal to get worked up in such situations.

You can find similar constellation in restaurant kitchens, stock markets or any other high stress and/or competitive environments. The only reason most people don't kill each other after a hard day's work, is that they accept being emotional and know there's a reason to vent and rage sometimes - and that it is nothing personal at all.

Here, people tend to take things personal. Even if the rage post is directed at the game or the developers, some take it as a attack against them and answer with personal attacks. And I suspect this stems from the fact, they cannot or do not want to understand how another community member could come to the point he or she has to burst out in rage.

Expecting or demanding people to keep themselves in check or even meeting them with (passive) agression won't do any good in such situations - being understanding and helpful does. For all we know, someone who rages could have been very level-headed before, but encountered just too many obstacles and just not enough help.

How would you feel, if you gave structered feedback on a product, an in-depth description of your problem and you'd get the same unhelpful response from different sources or even worse - no response at all? If people feel ignored, they tend to try to gain attention and again, that's only natural. Some might even lose their temper in the process.

Would you think it would be wise to just ignore them or to finally offer a friendly ear to their complaints? And would you let anybody interfere by allowing others to belittle the problems of said indivuals or dishing out personal attacks, because they don't have those problems themselves?

Yes, we can and should constantly work on improving ourselves. This includes being understanding that people may react differently in same situations and not demanding others to be constantly on the same level as oneself.

Be welcoming, acceptable and helpful to others. Especially when they are raging, this builds community.

fredarbonab14_ESO · August 2014

Simple. The MMO community in the US has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited, and they show up in EVERY new game. And every game company knew to the game slowly realizes this and finally finds ways to at least control their lunacy.

seaef · August 2014

Brandalf wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Or, in the words of Will Wheaton: "Don't be a d*ck."

Even mentioning Wheaton should be an automatic ban. Without the Star Trek nerds, that guy would have been relegated to the dustbin long ago.

I would like him better if he looked in a mirror while using his catch-phrase. Admitting the problem is the first step toward healing.

I see someone isn't a fan of Tabletop...

I am a fan of tabletop, just not Wheaton.

He's not the poster boy for tabletop, just some schmuck who tries and capitalize off of it.

Um, it's his show. He created it, he's the star of it, he chooses the games that they play, he chooses the guests (presumably with input from Felicia Day & other folk at Geek & Sundry), etc.

My bad, I thought you were taking about tabletop gaming.

I could care less about Tabletop as a show. I usually don't watch trash.

I think that post has filled your required condescending comments for the week. GG.

Not quite.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

Zubba wrote: »

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

You didn't participate in usenet much I'm guessing.

SFBryan18 · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Zubba wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I didn't read the entire thread. There is no need. I've seen the same thread countless other times on countless other forums.

@OP I applaud your effort, but some things will never change, and internet forum courtesy is one of them......

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

Perhaps people were more courteous with a fledgling internet. But I remember playing UO 20 years ago, and there were plenty of jerks there too. I had a guy offer to give me his things because he said he was quitting the game and wanted to give his stuff to someone that would appreciate it. Then once he got me inside his house where he could attack me w/o turning red, he killed me and looted all my gear. When I asked why, he said "Because I can".

Human nature is still human nature. There are stories of war, deciet, betrayal and murder as far back as you care to look. The only thing keeping people polite was the very real possibility of getting their ass kicked for being a jerk. Or losing a job, or getting kicked out of a house etc. Repercussions.

The internet has no repercussion. Therefore we get an unrestricted version of human nature. People are people and when you throw a bunch of people into a situation where they can instantly disengage just by clicking a button, the bad apples rise to the surface.

Yep. This sums it up. It's not all, or even a majority of people. It's just a percentage of people who have antisocial problems. It also has a lot to do with culture. Ever been to New York? :P There are good and bad people in the world, and that will never change.

DenverRalphy · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Zubba wrote: »

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

You didn't participate in usenet much I'm guessing.

Ack! I still remember some really ugly arguments on usenet. Many topics became huge battlegrounds.

cromica81_ESO · August 2014

Most mmo communities are the same if you don't like it or can't handle it there are plenty of others things you could be doing.

seaef · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Zubba wrote: »

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

You didn't participate in usenet much I'm guessing.

^^ This

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Simple. The MMO community in the US has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited, and they show up in EVERY new game. And every game company knew to the game slowly realizes this and finally finds ways to at least control their lunacy.

You called out the US specifically.... why? How about just "the MMO community...".

Or for that matter, How about: "Any large, diversified and anonymous internet community with opinions has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited..."

Nope. You went with "in the US". Brutal and mean-spirited, huh?

You see, that's exactly the kind of little passive/aggressive, unnecessary generalization about an entire group that sets people off.... (leading no doubt to you subsequently posting how rude people were when they vigorously took issue with it and responded in kind.)

Crumpy · August 2014

So you're saying it's the Yanks' fault?

theyancey · August 2014

I agree with the OP. The vitriol spewed here is thick and deep and has an odor more akin to that of a Parisian sewer than to the flowers of Tamriel. It has gotten better since launch though. Many of the misbegotten, flaming trolls, and minions of Uncle Sheogorath have left. Many thanks mods! It is still a stain and embarrassment on the community however. Stop . . . think . . . breathe before you post.

fredarbonab14_ESO · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Simple. The MMO community in the US has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited, and they show up in EVERY new game. And every game company knew to the game slowly realizes this and finally finds ways to at least control their lunacy.

You called out the US specifically.... why? How about just "the MMO community...".

Or for that matter, How about: "Any large, diversified and anonymous internet community with opinions has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited..."

Nope. You went with "in the US". Brutal and mean-spirited, huh?

You see, that's exactly the kind of little passive/aggressive, unnecessary generalization about an entire group that sets people off.... (leading no doubt to you subsequently posting how rude people were when they vigorously took issue with it and responded in kind.)

I called out the US specifically because it is markedly the WORST among Western communities, the absolute worst. Their arrogance and pompous manner shows up in just about every aspect and walk of life.

/A fellow American

Alphashado · August 2014

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Simple. The MMO community in the US has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited, and they show up in EVERY new game. And every game company knew to the game slowly realizes this and finally finds ways to at least control their lunacy.

You called out the US specifically.... why? How about just "the MMO community...".

Or for that matter, How about: "Any large, diversified and anonymous internet community with opinions has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited..."

Nope. You went with "in the US". Brutal and mean-spirited, huh?

You see, that's exactly the kind of little passive/aggressive, unnecessary generalization about an entire group that sets people off.... (leading no doubt to you subsequently posting how rude people were when they vigorously took issue with it and responded in kind.)

I called out the US specifically because it is markedly the WORST among Western communities, the absolute worst. Their arrogance and pompous manner shows up in just about every aspect and walk of life.

/A fellow American

Comments like this are just toxic and untrue. I am an American. I have traveled the USA from one corner to the other. I have worked in 42 of the 48 continental states. I have seen every concievable walk of life you can possibly imagine finding in this country. We are a proud nation yes. Pompous and arrogant? Hardly. That is the kind of crap you get from Hollywood. Or maybe the larger cities like NY or LA.

The USA is crammed packed with small towns full of wonderful friendly people that would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it.

If you think the USA is such a cesspool than I suggest you get out of whatever dive you currently reside in, shut off the TV and the Internet, and get out to the country and meet the other 90% of the population.

Nazon_Katts · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Simple. The MMO community in the US has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited, and they show up in EVERY new game. And every game company knew to the game slowly realizes this and finally finds ways to at least control their lunacy.

You called out the US specifically.... why? How about just "the MMO community...".

Or for that matter, How about: "Any large, diversified and anonymous internet community with opinions has a large segment that is brutal and very mean-spirited..."

Nope. You went with "in the US". Brutal and mean-spirited, huh?

You see, that's exactly the kind of little passive/aggressive, unnecessary generalization about an entire group that sets people off.... (leading no doubt to you subsequently posting how rude people were when they vigorously took issue with it and responded in kind.)

I called out the US specifically because it is markedly the WORST among Western communities, the absolute worst. Their arrogance and pompous manner shows up in just about every aspect and walk of life.

/A fellow American

Comments like this are just toxic and untrue. I am an American. I have traveled the USA from one corner to the other. I have worked in 42 of the 48 continental states. I have seen every concievable walk of life you can possibly imagine finding in this country. We are a proud nation yes. Pompous and arrogant? Hardly. That is the kind of crap you get from Hollywood. Or maybe the larger cities like NY or LA.

The USA is crammed packed with small towns full of wonderful friendly people that would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it.

If you think the USA is such a cesspool than I suggest you get out of whatever dive you currently reside in, shut off the TV and the Internet, and get out to the country and meet the other 90% of the population.

I hear the exact same thing about the German community and it being the worst worldwide given as reason why people prefer to play with Americans instead. And of course vice versa as well. You can probably mix and match that with any bigger online community - if there even is such thing deserving this kind of broad generalization.

Dunno, but I got the impression the grass is never as green as it might seem from far away and most homesoils grow the green just fair enough.

SFBryan18 · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

The USA is crammed packed with small towns full of wonderful friendly people that would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it.

Unless you live in the ghetto's of Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Baltimore, Stockton, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc...
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

In those places, you're likely to get robbed at gunpoint.

Michael308 · August 2014

felinith66 wrote: »

People care about their characters. That's not going to change because the child next door lost her dad in a war.

I come from a third world country. I've experienced the harsh realities the op has mentioned. That doesn't stop me from breaking my keyboard, throwing my mouse across the room, or bitching to costumer support when I get frustrated about a game I'm playing. Is my anger justified? For me, it is

As to your first statement above, clearly my intent to weigh video game issues against more pressing human issues was lost on you. Your compassion is duly noted.

As to your second, if you are arguing that there is ever a justification for breaking your own keyboard, throwing your mouse or ranting and raving, or that those actions make anything better... then we differ in opinion.

Bleakraven · August 2014

Thank you for your words. I agree with what you've said. It's sad to see that so much of the gaming community has come down to what it is now. Self-centered rude idiots who care about nobody else but themselves and must be right no matter what. Long gone are the days of people stopping to help each other. Now? Hah, steal your resources from you while you fight off a monster.

Cherryblossom · August 2014

I play the game why wouldn't I complain and rage about percieved ignored problems and bugs.
The forum is here for us to discuss the Game, this will always become heated, as the forums have two types of Trolls, those that dismiss everyones complaints (the OP in this case) and those that complain to get a reaction.

As for the kids doing Archery, their at least doing more damage than my Nightblade.....

Michael308 · August 2014

Let me be clear gang, I didn't write the OP thinking it would change much of anything. That isn't realistic. Humans love terms like "community" but that notion is largely archaic in this world. People look for reasons to divide ourselves; by nation (as above) or by playstile (casual v hardcore) or a million other equally subjective criteria in every aspect of life. Those like us are right, everybody else is wrong. We all-too-often define ourselves by who we are not instead of looking at the many things we all share.

I was tired the night of the OP. Physically beat after a long day of work and just tired of reading one online thread after another (in various forums) laced with accusations, recriminations or outright poo-slinging tantrums. I made a pitch for simple civility, thats all, maybe because I wanted to hope for it all by myself.

I greatly, I mean really really greatly, appreciate all the kind responses. It has been a bit overwhelming and comforting. But I'm not going to take any more time debating things like hyperbole or internet culture because that is a waste of breath. You will believe what you like individually and I will believe as I have all my life that there is no excuse to throw a tantrum, to break things, to scream and flail about. That argument has been used by guys who bully others, who beat their girlfriends, wives and kids, who kick the dog. Personally, I think it is the pinnacle of dim-witted selfishness. I've been angry as hell in my life, I've even reached out to a CEO and got somebody fired for being grossly rude to me, but I handled my side of it with very cold precision instead of freaking out on a store showroom when I was "given good reason to do so." We all handle things our own way.

We will always have nice folks in the crowd, and always have jerks who take delight in making the world a miserable place for others, who troll or justify tantrums or breaking things in their own room as somehow mature or appropriate. What can any adult say to that sort of position? I can only hope that those who hold that view gravitate towards one another, and that in their personal moment of failure or shortcoming when a word of kindness would mean the world, that they find themself surrounded by people who share their approach to life.

I wish you my fellow players all the best, as I do for the great folks at ZOS. I could not imagine having to go to work every day reading commentary about my job the way people in the game industry have to. ESO has been a lot of fun for my friends and I and hopefully will continue to do so for a long, long time. This thread has very likely run its course and like a smart entertainer should probably step off-stage before it gets any older. Thanks for your time.

Super_Sonico · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

It's free and readily available, no reason not to use it.

Actually, there are reasons not to use it.
A- it makes you look like a jerk.
B- it does nothing for advancing a fix to the problem.
C- it makes you look like a jerk.
D- it detracts from other users who have the same issue from advancing a fix.

So, please, just stop it.

Dyabolikal · August 2014

Humans compete with each other we have done so from the very beginning its in our nature, yes we have morals and ethics in the modern era but that does not change what we are and what we were. Deep down its kill or be killed a instinct that has allowed us to populate the earth and become the most dominant species.

We have the intelligence to make a moral choice but when it comes down to it when our emotions take control of us we revert back to what we always have done, remove the threat from us. In the modern world we don't kill any more ( well legally anyway ) but it does not stop they deep unconscious reactions that is hard wired in to our brains, the only way people can focus it is in passive aggressiveness.

Until we get to a point where we ascend from what has basically been a survival instinct people will always try to be the most dominant individual, especially in a competitive form (video games in this case). The problem is people try to suppress this, as society demands this, and because of the lack of release they allow small things build up until a tempest of unwarranted rage over takes them.

It is what it is...........we all will sucumb to this one time or another, its got nothing to do with maturity, its just human nature to want to be the strongest because we are wired to survive and thats that.