[Serious] Improving this online community

Crumpy

Balls to it

Super_Sonico

Alphashado wrote: »

Perhaps people were more courteous with a fledgling internet. But I remember playing UO 20 years ago, and there were plenty of jerks there too. ...

In the sake of honesty, UO isn't 20 years old. It launched in '97. Just sayin' :P

Crumpy

There are and will always be vocal idiots. Nothing gonna change that.

Nazon_Katts

Michael308 wrote: »

Let me be clear gang, I didn't write the OP thinking it would change much of anything. That isn't realistic. Humans love terms like "community" but that notion is largely archaic in this world. People look for reasons to divide ourselves; by nation (as above) or by playstile (casual v hardcore) or a million other equally subjective criteria in every aspect of life. Those like us are right, everybody else is wrong. We all-too-often define ourselves by who we are not instead of looking at the many things we all share.

I was tired the night of the OP. Physically beat after a long day of work and just tired of reading one online thread after another (in various forums) laced with accusations, recriminations or outright poo-slinging tantrums. I made a pitch for simple civility, thats all, maybe because I wanted to hope for it all by myself.

I greatly, I mean really really greatly, appreciate all the kind responses. It has been a bit overwhelming and comforting. But I'm not going to take any more time debating things like hyperbole or internet culture because that is a waste of breath. You will believe what you like individually and I will believe as I have all my life that there is no excuse to throw a tantrum, to break things, to scream and flail about. That argument has been used by guys who bully others, who beat their girlfriends, wives and kids, who kick the dog. Personally, I think it is the pinnacle of dim-witted selfishness. I've been angry as hell in my life, I've even reached out to a CEO and got somebody fired for being grossly rude to me, but I handled my side of it with very cold precision instead of freaking out on a store showroom when I was "given good reason to do so." We all handle things our own way.

We will always have nice folks in the crowd, and always have jerks who take delight in making the world a miserable place for others, who troll or justify tantrums or breaking things in their own room as somehow mature or appropriate. What can any adult say to that sort of position? I can only hope that those who hold that view gravitate towards one another, and that in their personal moment of failure or shortcoming when a word of kindness would mean the world, that they find themself surrounded by people who share their approach to life.

I wish you my fellow players all the best, as I do for the great folks at ZOS. I could not imagine having to go to work every day reading commentary about my job the way people in the game industry have to. ESO has been a lot of fun for my friends and I and hopefully will continue to do so for a long, long time. This thread has very likely run its course and like a smart entertainer should probably step off-stage before it gets any older. Thanks for your time.

Wether intentionally or unintentionally, but now you're just being arrogant. Was it really necessary to throw raging forum posters together with folks who beat their family members? Really?

Zabalah

Michael308 wrote: »

Let me be clear gang, I didn't write the OP thinking it would change much of anything. That isn't realistic. Humans love terms like "community" but that notion is largely archaic in this world. People look for reasons to divide ourselves; by nation (as above) or by playstile (casual v hardcore) or a million other equally subjective criteria in every aspect of life. Those like us are right, everybody else is wrong. We all-too-often define ourselves by who we are not instead of looking at the many things we all share.

I was tired the night of the OP. Physically beat after a long day of work and just tired of reading one online thread after another (in various forums) laced with accusations, recriminations or outright poo-slinging tantrums. I made a pitch for simple civility, thats all, maybe because I wanted to hope for it all by myself.

I greatly, I mean really really greatly, appreciate all the kind responses. It has been a bit overwhelming and comforting. But I'm not going to take any more time debating things like hyperbole or internet culture because that is a waste of breath. You will believe what you like individually and I will believe as I have all my life that there is no excuse to throw a tantrum, to break things, to scream and flail about. That argument has been used by guys who bully others, who beat their girlfriends, wives and kids, who kick the dog. Personally, I think it is the pinnacle of dim-witted selfishness. I've been angry as hell in my life, I've even reached out to a CEO and got somebody fired for being grossly rude to me, but I handled my side of it with very cold precision instead of freaking out on a store showroom when I was "given good reason to do so." We all handle things our own way.

We will always have nice folks in the crowd, and always have jerks who take delight in making the world a miserable place for others, who troll or justify tantrums or breaking things in their own room as somehow mature or appropriate. What can any adult say to that sort of position? I can only hope that those who hold that view gravitate towards one another, and that in their personal moment of failure or shortcoming when a word of kindness would mean the world, that they find themself surrounded by people who share their approach to life.

I wish you my fellow players all the best, as I do for the great folks at ZOS. I could not imagine having to go to work every day reading commentary about my job the way people in the game industry have to. ESO has been a lot of fun for my friends and I and hopefully will continue to do so for a long, long time. This thread has very likely run its course and like a smart entertainer should probably step off-stage before it gets any older. Thanks for your time.

I am bowing out of the thread as well, though my input was fleeting. I just wanted to close by saying there are more who sit quietly on the side-lines agreeing with your logic and insight -- than all the individuals thrown together on one side of this room who have tried to make your presentation into a podium for their one minute of fame.

Yes, the silent ones got your back. You are not alone.

Thank you for bringing our viewpoint to light.

SFBryan18

Super_Sonico wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Perhaps people were more courteous with a fledgling internet. But I remember playing UO 20 years ago, and there were plenty of jerks there too. ...

In the sake of honesty, UO isn't 20 years old. It launched in '97. Just sayin' :P

You deleted the wrong name from the quote.

Cuyler

@Michael308
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. I applaud you for your considerate and well thought responses to each of the individuals.

Your OP and subsequent outpouring of responses is a positive reminder that with a little respect and humility often comes greater reward.

I personally will never understand the thinking of individuals who read a post like the OP and respond with rationalization for the type of infantile behavior often seen here. Truly sad and lonely people they must be and I pity them.

With that being said I'm sure I'll see plenty more disrespectful posts in the future and may even get some personal stabs for my comment here; however, at least for today, I was greeted upon first opening the forums with sound logic communicated with compassion and for that I thank you.

Best Regards,

Crumpy

Get a room boys

Nazon_Katts

Further dividing the community with underhanded insults won't bring us much further along. And a false sense of moral superiority is not going to improve much around here, either. It will just lead to the very opposite of what was tried to achieve.

Obscure

You know what makes for a better community?

Accepting that simply by nature of having an opinion does not make that opinion valid, nor entitle you believe anyone should give a damn that you have it.

The species in its entirety would be better off if we were humbled by acceptance of our grand unifying stupidity. I'm frequently astonished that we have both easy access to large amounts of information and large numbers of stupid people occupying the same point in time...even more so both occupying the same place. Supports the theory that ignorance can be cured with knowledge, but stupidity is a terminal illness.

Elad13

What is mature? What's immature? Is there some key known factor that determines those labelings? Basically if someone is passionate or frustrated or voices strong opinions then they are labeled by others? Clearly anyone that is on the forums has some level of maturity....so nah nah....
Lol

Srugzal

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Zubba wrote: »

Internet courtesy is one of the things changing all the time, for the worse. It was not at all like this in the 90's.

You didn't participate in usenet much I'm guessing.

Very, very true. There were some epic flame wars on some of the discussion groups back then. One sees some veterans from those wars from time to time, but mostly it's variations on childish pique.

On the other hand, being supremely nasty to each other has been a constant occupation since the invention of movable type, I'll reckon. We're never going to stop it. That's why I like @Nazon_Katts‌'s approach so much. I don't think anyone really wants to live in a society where public emotional expression is completely suppressed.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

SirAndy wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Please for the love of humanity don't try to justify hyperbole -_-

Without hyperbole, the universe will implode!
;-)

Hasn't the Big Crunch theory pretty much fallen out of favor?

Only because hyperbole is everywhere and pushing the universe apart.

Without hyperbole, the universe will implode!

OMG! Hyperbole is Dark Energy.

Venereous44

I see a lot of good posts and view points, from the OP to rebuttals... I just wanna throw out a couple;

The squeaky wheel gets the grease!

Also, some folks tend to amplify emotions as part of their personality when it might not really be how they feel... "Wow! That's awesome!" as a response to seeing something slightly intriguing. Others do the same with negativity..

And.. who's to say that some of those ragers don't have reasons to rage? Maybe the guy is a vet with no face and now he comes home and gets to finally get some raging therapy via yelling at a video game.

Empathy should go both ways.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Zabalah wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Super_Sonico wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand this post. Is being angry about a game and being angry about unjust things in life mutually exclusive?

If I get worked up over a game I put time into, is it proof that I am incapable of feeling empathy for people suffering or sadness about the fact that life just really sucks?

This attempt to make feel feel like a horrible human being because I am capable of multi-tasking my rage, and changing the levels of it based on what I am raging about, seems in and of itself malicious.

I think you're being a little intentionally obtuse. His gist is quite simple. There's real things in the world to get mad at. A video game isn't one of them. Stop coming on the forums acting like your life is ruined just because something in game isn't working like you want. Be respectful, courteous, and learn to communicate clearly so we can all actually help get things fixed that need to be. Then we can have fun.

It's pretty simple really.

Right but I can be mad about said real things and still get riled up about this game. I have an endless amount of anger available for all facets of life. It's free and readily available, no reason not to use it.

Anger Management is a sign of maturity and the ability to co-exist in a moral society.

Breathing is free and fresh air readily available... until one abuses it. Then it is fatal to everyone.

erm, how do I abuse breathing?

I mean, if I hyperventilate I could pass out from it, but my body would regulate again once I am unconscious, and no one else would potentially die.

I guess if I was trapped in a coffin I could "abuse" breathing and breath too much before someone came and dug me out, causing me to suffocate...

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Zabalah wrote: »

Michael308 wrote: »

Let me be clear gang, I didn't write the OP thinking it would change much of anything. That isn't realistic. Humans love terms like "community" but that notion is largely archaic in this world. People look for reasons to divide ourselves; by nation (as above) or by playstile (casual v hardcore) or a million other equally subjective criteria in every aspect of life. Those like us are right, everybody else is wrong. We all-too-often define ourselves by who we are not instead of looking at the many things we all share.

I was tired the night of the OP. Physically beat after a long day of work and just tired of reading one online thread after another (in various forums) laced with accusations, recriminations or outright poo-slinging tantrums. I made a pitch for simple civility, thats all, maybe because I wanted to hope for it all by myself.

I greatly, I mean really really greatly, appreciate all the kind responses. It has been a bit overwhelming and comforting. But I'm not going to take any more time debating things like hyperbole or internet culture because that is a waste of breath. You will believe what you like individually and I will believe as I have all my life that there is no excuse to throw a tantrum, to break things, to scream and flail about. That argument has been used by guys who bully others, who beat their girlfriends, wives and kids, who kick the dog. Personally, I think it is the pinnacle of dim-witted selfishness. I've been angry as hell in my life, I've even reached out to a CEO and got somebody fired for being grossly rude to me, but I handled my side of it with very cold precision instead of freaking out on a store showroom when I was "given good reason to do so." We all handle things our own way.

We will always have nice folks in the crowd, and always have jerks who take delight in making the world a miserable place for others, who troll or justify tantrums or breaking things in their own room as somehow mature or appropriate. What can any adult say to that sort of position? I can only hope that those who hold that view gravitate towards one another, and that in their personal moment of failure or shortcoming when a word of kindness would mean the world, that they find themself surrounded by people who share their approach to life.

I wish you my fellow players all the best, as I do for the great folks at ZOS. I could not imagine having to go to work every day reading commentary about my job the way people in the game industry have to. ESO has been a lot of fun for my friends and I and hopefully will continue to do so for a long, long time. This thread has very likely run its course and like a smart entertainer should probably step off-stage before it gets any older. Thanks for your time.

I am bowing out of the thread as well, though my input was fleeting. I just wanted to close by saying there are more who sit quietly on the side-lines agreeing with your logic and insight -- than all the individuals thrown together on one side of this room who have tried to make your presentation into a podium for their one minute of fame.

Yes, the silent ones got your back. You are not alone.

Thank you for bringing our viewpoint to light.

There is so much passive aggressive behavior on this forum. I would rather have someone that is passionate about their views discuss things with me than someone who is petty and makes jabs at people before announcing melodramatically that they are leaving, like this and the OP. Not only do we not need to know your location at any given time on the forums (your big boys and girls, you can take care of yourselves,) but I also don't care.

ShadoPanauin

It's better to rage at a game after a bad day than to go and hurt someone in real life. If someone feels the need to rage at a game, then do it, allows them to release all that anger they have at whatever/whoever.

EDIT: Don't take it out in chat/forums though :P

Robocles

Brandalf wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

1. Pathos is appealing to Emotion, which you do with your sob stories. Your problem is that using a sob story of "others have it worse than you" as a language coding technique to actually say shut up! cheapens the value of the sob story. I already feel less empathy for every situation you just described about the precious babies because I feel you tried to manipulate my emotions to silence me by making me feel bad if I "complain."

2. Logos is appealing to Logic, in which you go on a huge tirade about how it just isn't the end of the world. Problem is, nobody said it is. Nobody is behaving out of the motives you address. Instead, it seems logically, like you are muddying the waters by accusing people of having motives or behaviors just to paint a picture of them that is easy to attack. You also come off like some rich snob telling poor people just work harder.

3. Ethos is appealing to Ethics in which you attempt to portray people who "complain" as being unethical and immoral. Part of your argument is mere Semantics over the meaning of the word Rage. I also find it unethical that you are using manipulate techniques to rally the horde against "complainers."

4. Your argument just seems to paint with a brush so broad I could cover the side of a barn in 2 strokes. You make Apples and Oranges comparisons about Rage in a game versus Rage in real life.

Not to mention you also finalize by lecturing... again about adult behavior on the internet. As though you are seeking to claim some moral high ground by making easy to agree with points followed up with well, as you called it yourself... Hyperbole.

5. While I am certain you had good motives, I am also certain there are a lot more problems with your entire post than what I just pointed out. You did a good job of weaving Ethics, Logic and Emotion to construct an argument. Even though you have a really bad argument which I fear only serves to muddy the waters, you have a well structured argument.

In the end, I don't know if your post is directed to make a better community or complain about complainers.

I respect your Skill Level in Writing, and Critical Thinking. I just wish you had thought out the ramifications of lecturing, generalizations, presupposition and labeling of others. They are bad tactics.

You do make a really good point about the nature of hostility in the dissent of ESO Players toward Design Choices, but ignore the nature of hostility in those who attack the "complainers" as you label and generalize them. I don't agree with your post, because everything about your post turned me off. I do agree with the message in spite of that. I hope in the future you consider the tactics you use as to avoid turning off people who might otherwise agree with you.

Good luck!

Don't try so hard.

Don't try so hard at what? Here is a post that clearly points out how the OP is no different than the people he slams.

I agree that we all sometimes get a bit out of hand. But comparing our response to a game we bought and we are supposed to play for fun to the tribulations of others really is no better than the hyperbolic statements of the trolls we see here.

JKorr

Maverick827 wrote: »

Michael308 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

As that was clearly set forth in my OP I will merely suggest that you overlooked it.

And I did not suggest that only the worse-off gets to complain, but rather that rage, the scream-fits and tantrums, should be considered through the lens of perspective before being launched. Your rebuttal to me was thoughtful, you didn't threaten to quit this forum because I disagreed with you. The parallel I believe, is evident.

I honestly haven't seen anyone act the way you describe on these forums.

You missed the "class action lawsuits" and "I'm going to sue Zenimax" and my favorite, "I'm gonna take Zenimax to small claims court to get a refund for $7.50".

There were also threads in all caps, with censor bypasses that the mods shut down in short order, due to the forum rules/ToS or deleted completely.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

It's better to rage at a game after a bad day than to go and hurt someone in real life. If someone feels the need to rage at a game, then do it, allows them to release all that anger they have at whatever/whoever.

EDIT: Don't take it out in chat/forums though :P

yeeeaa, I have never felt the urge to hurt people in real life, even when raging about... anything.

The adrenaline high from anger is actually somewhat habit forming, and humans enjoy the act. It's the aftermath that is the bad part.

epoling

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

It's better to rage at a game after a bad day than to go and hurt someone in real life. If someone feels the need to rage at a game, then do it, allows them to release all that anger they have at whatever/whoever.

EDIT: Don't take it out in chat/forums though :P

Maybe it shows my age but when I was growing up it was considered bad form to hurt people to release anger AND to rage at anonymous folks for the same reason. Somewhere in the last couple of decades we have lots that touch of civility that made us keep our anger from affecting others.

Crumpy

You are affected by some angry forum posts?

seaef

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

The USA is crammed packed with small towns full of wonderful friendly people that would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it.

Unless you live in the ghetto's of Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Baltimore, Stockton, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc...
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

In those places, you're likely to get robbed at gunpoint.

Pfft. I grew up in Detroit. There are a lot of nice places in Detroit. You only see what the media wants you to see to bump their ratings.

However, I will say one thing about Detroit. The residents never put up with any crap. Detroit takes care of the riff raff by itself. By the time the police show up all there is left is some skin and a few teeth. Problem solved.

I don't know why we bother sending the pansy military to fight our wars. The residents of Detroit would be far more effective, IMO.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

GrimGryphon wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

The USA is crammed packed with small towns full of wonderful friendly people that would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it.

Unless you live in the ghetto's of Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Baltimore, Stockton, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc...
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

In those places, you're likely to get robbed at gunpoint.

Pfft. I grew up in Detroit. There are a lot of nice places in Detroit. You only see what the media wants you to see to bump their ratings.

However, I will say one thing about Detroit. The residents never put up with any crap. Detroit takes care of the riff raff by itself. By the time the police show up all there is left is some skin and a few teeth. Problem solved.

I don't know why we bother sending the pansy military to fight our wars. The residents of Detroit would be far more effective, IMO.

Considering the wait times before the police show up, it's probably because said riff raff has expired of old age.

ZOS_AlexD

Hello everyone. It appears that this discussion has jumped off topic. We appreciate feedback from our community, but discussions that involve current events and political issues are best left off of the forums. Thank you for your understanding.