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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
ZOS. How? Why?
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Thralgaf✭✭✭I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?
Because people like what they are getting for their money.
That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.
By people, you mean you? The OP isn't satisfied.
No. By people, i mean the hundreds of thousands of people who did not vote with their wallets and leave the game despite all the bugs the OP mentions.
So you have irrefutable evidence that hundreds of thousands didn't vote with their wallets and leave the game? Besides, that's not the argument here (nice try). The argument is why do folks pile on paying customers voicing their frustration with product that isn't performing to their standard?
If you feel that i 'pile' on you, sorry, that is not my intention.
I am just answering your question "why do people pay for someting they are not satisfied with". The answer is "They do not. They either are satisfied enough to pay, or they do not pay".
Are we reading the same thread? Personally, as of now, I can deal with the bugs and am satisfied with the game. My point is why do people jump all over paying customers that aren't.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP refers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.Edited by Sharee on August 18, 2014 10:29AM3 -
Raash✭✭✭✭Yeah bugs find their way into games all the time, But I think its time to call guinnes book of records now. Game been out half a year now and bugs everywhere lol. Anyway, you guys white knighting this can pm me later, have some old phones laying around you might be interested in buying, most stuff still works and some dont. But why fix anything that is not completely broken? Hear from you later then! Todilue!
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Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Please don't. ;-) This argument isn't getting anywhere.
As long as the (true) assertion that there are serious problems is met with "you can't demand perfection" (when no such demand was made) and "you don't appreciate the difficulty" when it's about an incompetent test process, no real dialog is going to take place.
One can talk about the problems of perfection and large scale development (assuming you have experience with these things), and you can talk about software quality assurance processes (again, assuming you have experience in these fields), but it doesn't really require settlement of these issues to recognize that, yes, there are a lot of big problems and yes, there seems to be no relief in sight and, no, it's not what we should be paying for.
It is true that some people don't mind the problems. That is, unfortunately, irrelevant. It doesn't make them any less urgent.
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Thralgaf✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.2 -
Arkadius✭✭✭✭✭
✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.
What is clearly proved by one full campaign at prime time
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Thralgaf✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Please don't. ;-) This argument isn't getting anywhere.
As long as the (true) assertion that there are serious problems is met with "you can't demand perfection" (when no such demand was made) and "you don't appreciate the difficulty" when it's about an incompetent test process, no real dialog is going to take place.
One can talk about the problems of perfection and large scale development (assuming you have experience with these things), and you can talk about software quality assurance processes (again, assuming you have experience in these fields), but it doesn't really require settlement of these issues to recognize that, yes, there are a lot of big problems and yes, there seems to be no relief in sight and, no, it's not what we should be paying for.
It is true that some people don't mind the problems. That is, unfortunately, irrelevant. It doesn't make them any less urgent.
And that's the point I'm trying to make. Evidently it's pointless. See what I did there?0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.
Nice try, but your original claim was 'people are no longer playing', and not 'no one has left the game'.3 -
Talrenos✭✭✭✭
There are 10b kinds of people:HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?
[...]
WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?
Those that understand how hard a job is and thus won't complain about acceptable/expected mistakes like those.
Those who do not and thus shouldn't run thier mouths about stuff they could not comprehend in a decade of study.
You are obviously the later.
Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.
Explain me how you can even ask there to be no problem with a project that scale?
Assuming you consider yourself the first kind, I challenge you to why your so apathetic that you will sit back and say nothing. Wont complain, just a passive monkey In the corner. oh, whats '10b' kinds of people anyway? I bet when you go to a restaurant and the food is undercooked, you just sit back, and say 'Oh, its so hard to cook over a hot stove, i'll say nothing' then you pay the bill and come back for more undercooked food the next day....
You are exactly the customer ZOS wants...6 -
Thralgaf✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.
Nice try, but your original claim was 'people are no longer playing', and not 'no one has left the game'.
The people in my statement did not refer to all people; it referred to the people that have left. You know this.1 -
Talrenos✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Yes actually, I've worked in the game industry as a tester and as a software engineer and know many game developers today.
I currently work on robotic arm and winch systems using fuzzy logic. When our software doesn't work, people die.
Again, pushing out broken patches is a choice and every single patch does not have to be pushed out in a broken state.
Your logic, it's broken, like this software.
Please stop right there. I simply do not believe your claims. Every pathetic person makes the same type of self-boosting BS and almost never are the people that write here what they claim to be. Its all just a tactic to boost your opinion on the forums and attempt to make people believe what you say.
Funny thing is that I actually agree with your points, however self-proclaiming yourself to be a worker in the game industry is 99.9999999% of the time a load of BS. so I say prove it or go away.6 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes all software has bugs.
But, depending on your play style with eso, you might find the odd bug or a few things that need balancing, hence the "all mmos have probs" type response to the OP,
or like me you are sick to death of not being able to play for more than 3 to 4 weeks without finding it unplayable again for another 2 plus weeks.
The latter in my opinion is totally unacceptable for something I'm paying for.
Since the EU server move I've experienced lag causing many of the problems in the OPs post, since the update its just got worse.
Time and time again people in the EU told Zenimax one 30 day server is not enough, we had two 90 day servers full every night, so whats happened, one server, hour plus queues to get in, that is simply mind numbingly bad, I've yet to meet one EU PvP player who didn't see that coming. And when they make decisions like that, it does make me wonder. Sure I suspect in about a month they will add another 30 day to the EU, but they could have done that last week when they saw that what the EU players predicted was true.
It was only about a couple of weeks before the server move that Zenimax finally got PvP playable after about 2 weeks of low frame rates, we get to play for 2 weeks, then find for the next week (and counting) it's totally unplayable again.
One problem I see is with the 6 week release, they release the next update, it takes a couple of weeks plus to settle down, then we only get 3 to 4 weeks of stable game time before the next release.
Whereas most games or other software have around 2 updates a year meaning if it goes wrong and takes a couple of weeks to fix people have the next 5 and a half months fairly stable.
I'm sorry, but some of the major bugs happening after every release is unacceptable. When they happen on release day on the NA server, to go ahead and still patch the EU one before fixes are found, well words fail me.
To quote what I said on my guilds web site last night
[22:30:50] <On a seperate note, I'm totally pissed off with the lag in eso at the moment and am taking a break for a few days or so to see if it improves
[22:31:53] sick of doing bug reports, weapons not swapping, skills not firing off, mage light showing as active when it isn't etcEdited by Ojustaboo on August 18, 2014 10:44AM4 -
Thralgaf✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.
What is clearly proved by one full campaign at prime timesfradenb14_ESO wrote: »
There are 10b kinds of people:HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?
[...]
WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?
Those that understand how hard a job is and thus won't complain about acceptable/expected mistakes like those.
Those who do not and thus shouldn't run thier mouths about stuff they could not comprehend in a decade of study.
You are obviously the later.
Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.
Explain me how you can even ask there to be no problem with a project that scale?
Assuming you consider yourself the first kind, I challenge you to why your so apathetic that you will sit back and say nothing. Wont complain, just a passive monkey In the corner. oh, whats '10b' kinds of people anyway? I bet when you go to a restaurant and the food is undercooked, you just sit back, and say 'Oh, its so hard to cook over a hot stove, i'll say nothing' then you pay the bill and come back for more undercooked food the next day....
You are exactly the customer ZOS wants...
Please refrain from logic in this thread.3 -
Thralgaf✭✭✭KhajitFurTrader wrote: »
No, really. What is 10b kinds of people? Still scratching my head on that one.0 -
KhajitFurTrader✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In binary notation, 10 ("one-zero", not "ten") means 1 x 2^1 (= 2) + 0 x 2^0 (= 0). This plays on the saying: "There are two kinds of people in the world...". In this case, there are those who understand binary (and by extension, programming), and those who don't.Edited by KhajitFurTrader on August 18, 2014 11:06AM4 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"
You're in the MMO business? No?
Well then.CapuchinSeven wrote: »We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.
Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.
Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.
Actually, no, we can't. Because to disprove the claim that people are no longer playing, you only need to log into the game and have a look around.
And, even better - since the majority of the complaints in the OP reffers to cyrodiil - you just have to try to enter thornblade at primetime. If people were no longer playing, you wouldn't be stuck in a queue.
Yeah, you're right. No one has left this game, because people still play the game.
Nice try, but your original claim was 'people are no longer playing', and not 'no one has left the game'.
The people in my statement did not refer to all people; it referred to the people that have left. You know this.
Actually, no i did not know this.
The original claim was that "the bugs are not acceptable", in general.
The claim was not "the bugs are not acceptable to some people".(because i would have agreed with that one)
Thus, the whole conversation from that point on was about the population in general, and not about a subset of the population that is unsatisfied.
And thus your claim 'people are no longer playing' was taken to mean all the people.2 -
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, is a term that springs to mind, the way some are defending this type of service is amazing, i dnt mind a few bugs but id have to be dumb to sit back and deal with the mess that is the game at the moment without saying anything. Look the game is getting more and mo unstable, no this is not normal and if your happy to be dumpt on fine but most people retaliate and demand answers!
any programmer knows that this game is not one file full of code, there are lots of files for each area that hold the variables, statements and conditions, its not that hard to find that file and correct it.
another point is that professional companies do have professional testers, this clearly is not being tested, why?
we are being served BS4 -
AoEnwyr✭✭✭✭I must be lucky, these bugs really haven't impacted my game at all. My partner and I are having a fantastic time playing. Every now and then the weapon swapping wont work quite as expected but it hasn't been "game breaking" for us. Maybe we are just having too much fun to care
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stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭It should be obvious to everyone by now that ZOS either has not enough professional testers, or has not professional enough testers.
We are testing their game for them. I am still playing the game in its current state, but I will not accept such lazy practice from them without complaint.
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ah. And which MMO that has released flawless patches with no bugs in them have you worked on?
I'm sorry... are you just going out of your way to create stawman arguments because you're unable to grasp what you're talking about or because you know your point is weak?Edited by CapuchinSeven on August 18, 2014 11:51AM2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
No. I am challenging your claim to be an expert in the field of MMO quality control and thus have the authority to evaluate ZOS performance.
As one poster above eloquently put it:I simply do not believe your claims. Every pathetic person makes the same type of self-boosting BS and almost never are the people that write here what they claim to be. Its all just a tactic to boost your opinion on the forums and attempt to make people believe what you say.
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andreasv✭✭✭✭✭... the way some are defending this type of service is amazing, i dnt mind a few bugs but id have to be dumb to sit back and deal with the mess that is the game at the moment without saying anything ...
Maybe there are people who believe that it will get better. After all, if one reads the posts here, it can't get any worse.
I'm one of those who enjoys the game and patiently waits for the developers to iron out those few bugs (I have encountered yet). And because we already compared the game with kitchen tools. I bought a season ticket for my football club last year and we got relegated. THAT certainly did not go according to my expectations, and after spending £500 (slightly more than for ESO) I should have been fuming. Guess what - I bought another season ticket for this year because I believe it can get better and football is my passion.
And so are video games, including ESO.
I don't mind people pointing out faults but try to refrain from calling others dumb because they are patient and believe in a better game some time.2 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭sfradenb14_ESO wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »
Yes actually, I've worked in the game industry as a tester and as a software engineer and know many game developers today.
I currently work on robotic arm and winch systems using fuzzy logic. When our software doesn't work, people die.
Again, pushing out broken patches is a choice and every single patch does not have to be pushed out in a broken state.
Your logic, it's broken, like this software.
Please stop right there. I simply do not believe your claims. Every pathetic person makes the same type of self-boosting BS and almost never are the people that write here what they claim to be. Its all just a tactic to boost your opinion on the forums and attempt to make people believe what you say.
Funny thing is that I actually agree with your points, however self-proclaiming yourself to be a worker in the game industry is 99.9999999% of the time a load of BS. so I say prove it or go away.
No, actually, you stop. The answer to the "argument from authority" logical fallacy is not "you're lying," because answering one fallacy with another (the attack ad hominem in this case) is nothing more than mud slinging.
The answer is not "prove your authority" but "provide independent proof of your claims that do not depend on authority."
@CapuchinSeven claims that ZOS is choosing, for whatever reason, to push out patches that it knows are broken. The other claims are irrelevant. It is a contention, however, that can and should be challenged, and it might indeed be impossible to prove, other than by the evidence of repetition, i.e., there are so many problems, they have to be aware that they're there; after all, aren't we all screaming at them?
But this throwing fallacies back and forth will get us nowhere.2 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No. I am challenging your claim to be an expert in the field of MMO quality control and thus have the authority to evaluate ZOS performance.
No, actually you're claiming, that I'm claiming that a flawless MMO has been released with no bugs or that even large bugs can't slip into live sometimes.
That isn't the argument, go re-read the argument and get your head around it.As one poster above eloquently put it:
I've only just read that far, it comes down to this. If he wants to send me a PM then he's welcome to. If he wants me to post my work address and my name then frankly my ego is so huge it can take someone on the internet calling me a lair, because that won't happen.
So if it matters that much to you lets say you win, lets say I'm a lair, lets say I have no background at all in software engineering, lets say I've never heard of netcode, I've never even thought about a stack overflow or fuzzy logic and I work in the same cheese factory as everyone else in my city. Lets say you work in that same cheese factory with me. Lets say the only time either of us has thought of LIFO queuing theory is when we are pushing cheese into a delivery truck.
Your argument is that a game breaking bug is perfectly acceptable in every single major patch because making an MMO is hard. You're saying that there is no possible way they can catch these game breaking bugs, that somehow even when they are reported on the test server that they can't possibly either have seen those reports or simply have to release the patch because apparently everyone will leave the game if they don't keep the broken patches coming?
Please, correct that if you feel I'm misstating you. Is that what you're saying?Edited by CapuchinSeven on August 18, 2014 12:28PM6 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@CapuchinSeven claims that ZOS is choosing, for whatever reason, to push out patches that it knows are broken.
I don't think anyone here is disputing that. We only differ in the interpretation of that fact.
He says this proves their incompetence(and is trying to support that by proclaiming himself expert on the field, because he, loose quote, "knows many game developers". Ugh.).
I (and some others) on the other hand say this is simply a matter of a compromise between delivering a patch as bugless as possible, and delivering it as fast as possible.
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I (and some others) on the other hand say this is simply a matter of a compromise between delivering a patch as bugless as possible, and delivering it as fast as possible.
If every single large patch hadn't been released with a game breaking bug you'd be on stronger ground, to the point where health bars no longer move and guilds have to be disabled is past the point of a common or garden bug.
The issue that is annoying a number of players is not simply bugs. It's game breaking bugs that should have been spotted before it went live and even sometimes are reported on the test server.("knows many game developers". Ugh.)
More strawmen.
Edited by CapuchinSeven on August 18, 2014 12:32PM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
I (and some others) on the other hand say this is simply a matter of a compromise between delivering a patch as bugless as possible, and delivering it as fast as possible.
If every single large patch hadn't been released with a game breaking bug you'd be on stronger ground, to the point where health bars no longer move and guilds have to be disabled is past the point of a common or garden bug.
The issue that is annoying a number of players is not simply bugs. It's game breaking bugs that should have been spotted before it went live and even sometimes are reported on the test server.
If those bugs were game breaking then people would not be able to play the game.
I don't know about you, but none of the listed bugs made it impossible for me to play. They were annoying, sure, sometimes even infuriating (nothing like going from full health to dead because bow damage didnt update my health bar).
Yet, i was still playing. I suspect we simply have a different definition of what is 'game breaking'.CapuchinSeven wrote: »More strawmen.
It's not a straw man. When you make claims of expertise, don't be surprised when people call you out on that.Edited by Sharee on August 18, 2014 12:38PM2 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yet, i was still playing. I suspect we simply have a different definition of what is 'game breaking'.
I was going to say the same thing, so I respect your point, but I don't think it's too far out of field to that they are huge bugs that greatly hinder game play and are beyond simple bugs that slip into software, the FPS issue being another.
I'm sorry, I just don't agree with the critical bugs getting into every single large patch. While it happens, every single patch (even after being reported on the TS) is not acceptable.
It's not a straw man. When you make claims of expertise, don't be surprised when people call you out on that.
I wasn't referring to being called out.Edited by CapuchinSeven on August 18, 2014 12:48PM0
