Tabbycat wrote: »

I think it all boils down to if they can push a button they can disagree anonymously, if they have to actually post, they have to defend their position or at least explain it... and everyone knows who they are.

Disagree, dislike or even LOL is easy to abuse because no one knows who did it.

Why should anyone have to defend their opinion to you, Nev, sfb, nox, or anyone on this forum?

Giving posters a way to see who down votes their post would promote more griefing and exclusion in game. As witnessed on these forums when your guildies come here to defend your post,would happen in game also.

As for defending my down vote, Zen has provided a one click way to do that too.
Just scroll down to a opinion that fits the way I feel and click, agree, awesome,insightful. With that one click I can state my opinion, without having to get into an endless debate with a troll.

I like the idea of removing forum points. Leave the up-down vote system. Disagree button? Don't care. I can use the LOL for that.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Burnemdown wrote: »

Why should anyone have to defend their opinion to you, Nev, sfb, nox, or anyone on this forum?

Um...everyone?

So you're saying you want to speak your mind and don't want to defend the things you say that may make others happy, sad, angry, disappointed, etc.?

Viewpoints are to foster discussion. If you simply don't care about the other people in a thread enough by defending your opinion, then you would be better off talking to a mirror.

If you don't care, why should we? It makes your opinion useless and simply forum noise.

Gotta love anti-social behavior in a social setting.

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think it all boils down to if they can push a button they can disagree anonymously, if they have to actually post, they have to defend their position or at least explain it... and everyone knows who they are.

Disagree, dislike or even LOL is easy to abuse because no one knows who did it.

Good point.

Instead of adding a dislike button, let's remove LOL since it's getting abused anyway.

If they take away the lol button, let's use the awesome button instead to give that I disagree feed back. Then if that goes away let's use the insightful button. Do not allow your voice to be silenced, everyone's opinion has value and adds to the community.

A "voice" that abuses the system isn't an opinion, it's a tactic.

Dissenting opinions are valuable and should not be ignored. Obviously you don't have to agree with them, well I guess that is the problem right now you can only agree with them.

I think the problem at the root of this is that people don't like to be disagreed with. This is because we view it in the wrong way, we see it as an attack on our self. I know that is how I use to see it, and I would just get defensive and hunkerdown no matter how far off base I was.

What is happening when someone disagrees with you is that they are showing you they care. They either care enough about you to show you a better way, or they care enough about the issue to go to bat for it. To remove this passion and this concern from our community, I believe, is dangerous and I want better for everyone who is reading.

Yes, dissenting opinions (which have to be backed up by an argument) shouldn't be quashed.

Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think it all boils down to if they can push a button they can disagree anonymously, if they have to actually post, they have to defend their position or at least explain it... and everyone knows who they are.

Disagree, dislike or even LOL is easy to abuse because no one knows who did it.

Good point.

Instead of adding a dislike button, let's remove LOL since it's getting abused anyway.

If they take away the lol button, let's use the awesome button instead to give that I disagree feed back. Then if that goes away let's use the insightful button. Do not allow your voice to be silenced, everyone's opinion has value and adds to the community.

A "voice" that abuses the system isn't an opinion, it's a tactic.

Dissenting opinions are valuable and should not be ignored. Obviously you don't have to agree with them, well I guess that is the problem right now you can only agree with them.

I think the problem at the root of this is that people don't like to be disagreed with. This is because we view it in the wrong way, we see it as an attack on our self. I know that is how I use to see it, and I would just get defensive and hunkerdown no matter how far off base I was.

What is happening when someone disagrees with you is that they are showing you they care. They either care enough about you to show you a better way, or they care enough about the issue to go to bat for it. To remove this passion and this concern from our community, I believe, is dangerous and I want better for everyone who is reading.

Yes, dissenting opinions (which have to be backed up by an argument) shouldn't be quashed.

Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.

Agreed.

Nobody has to agree with me, and I don't take offense at people disagreeing with me, but at least say why. They might have a view that's totally incongruous with mine, and we can both be right, or one of us might know something the other doesn't.

And people have even been known to change their minds due to a conversation in a thread. I know I have before.

I think a "Disagree" button without a negative impact would be great! I think we would see the number of agrees AND disagrees spike. It would help everyone viewing the post get a better feel for how their opinion of the post compares with what others think.

It could also help posters with radical ideas to get some perspective.

SFBryan18 wrote: »

It's not a matter of necessity. It's a matter of accountability. If someone is going to put my statements down, I want to know who they are and why. Like I said before, this is a preference, not some fact about what is correct or not.

Who says they are putting your statements down? If it's a disagree button, they're just disagreeing. It's no big deal.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That just may be true in some circumstances. But a disagree without feedback just leaves the mechanic open for griefing. If the history of the Internet has proven anything, it's just that. There's a reason the massive majority of forums don't incorporate a similar mechanism, because it's been repeatedly abused.

If a disagree response adds to your "disagree" total, and gives points just like any other button response, there is no opportunity for griefing. Simply replying "disagree" to a post (which you can currently do) would be more griefy.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If people are too lazy to formulate an argument, then I'll gladly think that they found something funny in my post. Let them be lazy, and their vote can stand as a testament to their inability to put forward any kind of coherent argument in favor of their position.

I'm pretty sure your LOL's fall into the disagree category.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

It doesn't have to be "dislike." It could be "disagree." How is that different than many of the poll threads we see? I would at like to see a "Disagree" option to the choices.

No.

If you disagree with someone, explain yourself. If you don't care enough to explain yourself or if you don't have a decent argument, then clearly there's no need for anyone to know about your disagreement.

That makes no sense. The assumption on your part is that all folks would do is click disagree and move on without offering their opinion.

Actually, more often than not, that's exactly what happens.

Who cares? If you get one dislike and 100 likes then clearly it's a good post. If you get nothing but 200 dislikes don't get mad that people disliked it and didn't feel the need to tell you why. At that point it's pretty obvious. People are way too sensitive on these forums that's one of the main problems. So often people will offer arguments but they are terrible. Why should I suffer through some ill thought out argument when the person could simply say they disliked it? Who really wants to hear what the ZOS apologists think when we have a valid complaint anyway or someone who likes to comment about a post when they clearly don't understand what the post was about? I would rather they just dislike it instead of giving some half-baked argument.

Burnemdown wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think it all boils down to if they can push a button they can disagree anonymously, if they have to actually post, they have to defend their position or at least explain it... and everyone knows who they are.

Disagree, dislike or even LOL is easy to abuse because no one knows who did it.

Why should anyone have to defend their opinion to you, Nev, sfb, nox, or anyone on this forum?

Giving posters a way to see who down votes their post would promote more griefing and exclusion in game. As witnessed on these forums when your guildies come here to defend your post,would happen in game also.

As for defending my down vote, Zen has provided a one click way to do that too.
Just scroll down to a opinion that fits the way I feel and click, agree, awesome,insightful. With that one click I can state my opinion, without having to get into an endless debate with a troll.

I like the idea of removing forum points. Leave the up-down vote system. Disagree button? Don't care. I can use the LOL for that.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. For a game that is rated M and require you to put your age in just to visit the site it's full of a lot of sensitive people. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out the obvious. It's ridiculous the things they censor.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If people are too lazy to formulate an argument, then I'll gladly think that they found something funny in my post. Let them be lazy, and their vote can stand as a testament to their inability to put forward any kind of coherent argument in favor of their position.

I'm pretty sure your LOL's fall into the disagree category.

If you're referring to how I use my LOL votes (which you have no way of actually knowing), I only use them to indicate that I find a post genuinely funny. If I don't agree with your point and consider it worth debating, I'll respond in a post.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Jankstar wrote: »

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think it all boils down to if they can push a button they can disagree anonymously, if they have to actually post, they have to defend their position or at least explain it... and everyone knows who they are.

Disagree, dislike or even LOL is easy to abuse because no one knows who did it.

Good point.

Instead of adding a dislike button, let's remove LOL since it's getting abused anyway.

If they take away the lol button, let's use the awesome button instead to give that I disagree feed back. Then if that goes away let's use the insightful button. Do not allow your voice to be silenced, everyone's opinion has value and adds to the community.

A "voice" that abuses the system isn't an opinion, it's a tactic.

Dissenting opinions are valuable and should not be ignored. Obviously you don't have to agree with them, well I guess that is the problem right now you can only agree with them.

I think the problem at the root of this is that people don't like to be disagreed with. This is because we view it in the wrong way, we see it as an attack on our self. I know that is how I use to see it, and I would just get defensive and hunkerdown no matter how far off base I was.

What is happening when someone disagrees with you is that they are showing you they care. They either care enough about you to show you a better way, or they care enough about the issue to go to bat for it. To remove this passion and this concern from our community, I believe, is dangerous and I want better for everyone who is reading.

Yes, dissenting opinions (which have to be backed up by an argument) shouldn't be quashed.

Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.

I don't need to explain why murder is bad. It's universally understood. So are many things. Sometimes there is no need to explain a dissenting opinion. You have this misguided idea that we need to give up our valuable time to you so we can explain why you are wrong about an issue. Would you like me to keep doing this or will my comment become censored? This is what you wanted don't forget.

Well, you've now taken 6 different posts to explain yourself. Paradoxical, isn't it? For the record, you can quote multiple posts in one of your own, so... yeah. Try that next time.

And since you're being sophistic, let's go back to Philosophy 101. If there were no need to explain an argument, then there would be no argument to make in the first place. I can say, "murder is bad," but that's an extremely complex statement that I've tried to make simple. There are plenty of people who would amend that to, "Murder is bad in certain circumstances." Or even, "Certain people deserve death." If I'm not prepared to back up my statement with some kind of reasoned argument, then I don't have any right to participate in the discussion.

Lolhttps://youtube.com/watch?v=ECbgzgvfG4Y

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

You want a disagree...

I want all the buttons to show who clicked them and also a limit on how many ratings a person can spam in a day.

If there was some accountability for the ratings it wouldn't be a problem. I just hate when a small percentage of trolls spam buttons all day.

Well you can only "spam" a single button per post. So you can't really have that much of an effect on people, especially since LOL points don't count for anything.

You missed the point.

What was the point, then?

You can't spam someone with ratings that would negatively impact them in any way. So why do you care who's rating your posts?

You can not spam a single post, but you can click on every post you see. Get just a few of these people (there are always more than enough) and the 'disagree' trolling begins. Remember this thread is in favor of a dislike button, so we are not talking about what people can currently do. We're talking about what happens when votes have no accountability or limits. Like I said, you can have your dislike button, if you remove the anonymity and add a limit to how many a person can give in a day.

You have yet to make a coherent case why your proposed system does anything at all, other than arbitrarily limit other peoples' actions.

If the worst-case scenario happens, and there is "disagree trolling," the consequences are as follows:

There are no consequences, because this is all just people talking.

I don't understand this weird nannying of air, of thoughts and opinions. "Accountability" and "limits" are only necessary to prevent harm. There is no harm here, there's just you wanting to police what people are allowed to say, and how they are able to express their opinions, for its own sake, for no tangible explicable reason whatsoever.

I know from experience. I've been to forums with a down vote option and it's always used for some petty popularity contest.

I prefer they do not have a down vote button. No one is stopping you from posting. This is my opinion so I don't have to prove anything. Some decisions are not made on fact, they are made on preference, and I prefer a forum without the insulting down votes. If you disagree, then write it.

And if it is used for a petty popularity contest, who cares? This is all talk, it's wind and air. We are already engrossed in a petty popularity contest through the use of Insightful, Awesome, and Agrees. Facebook is the same with Likes and Shares. Just about every forum and comment section has an uptick and a downtick. If you're seeing something petty only in the use of negative and not seeing it in the positive, that is your personal baggage, and nobody else's.

The bottom line is, we're already in it, waist deep. All a button would do is put a name on something people are already doing. Argue until you're blue in the face, it won't change what other people do.

because that kind of negativeness leads to added toxicity in the forums which is bad for everyone.

Yes it's all just talk and we should get thicker skins and so forth and so on, but facilitating that kind of behavior just leads to unhappiness overall.

IDGAF about suppressing or not suppressing someone's cherished opinion.

No, it doesn't. The so-called "negativity" or "toxicity" or whatever you want to call it is already there. Limiting peoples' ability to express it doesn't make it not there.

Also, that's a total cop out. Most other avenues of forum communication are able to adultly deal with the concept of a down-tick. Disqus and Facebook, two of the most widely used forum architectures, both have down-ticks, and somehow people manage to use them without devolving into the dystopian wasteland of unhappiness that you predict.

What you're saying is that this community does not have the maturity to handle what nearly every other avenue of human communication can handle just fine, the ability to give a simple thumbs-down.

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Also, that's a total cop out. Most other avenues of forum communication are able to adultly deal with the concept of a down-tick. Disqus and Facebook, two of the most widely used forum architectures, both have down-ticks, and somehow people manage to use them without devolving into the dystopian wasteland of unhappiness that you predict.

How Upvote/Downvote Sites like Reddit Breed Irrational Herd Behavior