Guild Heraldry for small guilds.

Malpherian · August 2014

Here is the reason a Guild should have no restrictions whatsoever regardless of it's size, and honestly.. It's pretty damn simple:

BECAUSE YOU ARE PAYING A SUBSCRIPTION FOR CONTENT YOU DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO!!!

As I said before, If the game was FREE TO PLAY, I would probably agree with the restrictions. BUT IT ISN'T.

Oh and um also because:

NO OTHER GAME (MMO) DOES THIS TO IT'S PAYING MEMBERS, NOT EVEN THE F2P ONES!!!

Canstaht · August 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

However, the tabard there is no similar argument for why a small guild Does not have the right to one.

Sure there is, i posted that earlier in this thread.

The very DEFINITION of a tabard is derived from the word "Army Commander".
You can't be an "Army Commander" without an army!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
"... from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander" ..."

Your splitting hairs for the sake of it. Tabard does not come from the germanic word for army commander. Heraldry, sure. But the concept in MMO does not denote the need to be an army commander. No one in game is an army commander, so no one should have a tabard then by your statement. Which is silly.

"A tabard (from the French tabarde) was originally a humble outer garment of tunic form, generally without sleeves, worn by peasants, monks and foot-soldiers "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabard

And, if you're going to call yourself an army commander, then so can I simply for the sake of it. But it's preposterous to assume that 10 people constitutes an army, but sub 10 does not. So your statement is pretty baseless honestly any way you slice it.

hiyde · August 2014

Canstaht wrote: »

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

No, you just want the rules changed for that thing YOU want.

One can apply the 'I pay a sub therefore I should have "_____" to pretty much anything.

Malpherian · August 2014

hiyde wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

No, you just want the rules changed for that thing YOU want.

One can apply the 'I pay a sub therefore I should have "_____" to pretty much anything.

If its content that does not actually effect game-play, then yes, if you pay a sub it should be available to you with out the need for other paying subscribers to help you.

Granted I know lots of people that simply pay 10 people or 50 people to join their guild to unlock the stuff. But hey.

Canstaht · August 2014

hiyde wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

No, you just want the rules changed for that thing YOU want.

One can apply the 'I pay a sub therefore I should have "_____" to pretty much anything.

Rules ? what rule ? it's not a rule in the ToS or by the very nature of the game that you must have 10 people, to have a tabard. The devs happened to decide on 10 people being a limit. And while it is a current limitation, opening up dialog to change things is how things usually get changed. Someone proposes a change, then it's discussed, sometimes change occurs. It's not a game breaking request, and it is a request.

By your statement, one could infer that nothing should ever be changed or could be changed for the better.

Again, why is it such a game breaking concept for a guild, large or small to be able to have a tabard?

KleanZlate · August 2014

ahvann wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

So individuals should have access to guild functions because they pay the sub? Where does it end though? Should you be able to solo group dungeons and trials because you pay the fee just like those coordinate together in groups? What about all the content that's "locked" behind Craglorn and Cyrodiil? Should that be made available to everyone just for paying the sub?

A guild is a guild. It's intended for larger groups. I'm not against lowering the requirements for tabards to 4-5 members but don't give me this bs about it being about getting what you deserve for the sub.

I don't see where asking for a social element of a game, has anything to do with a game play aspect. You are not the first to draw this conclusion but it honestly baffles me.

People should not be handed game content, or given any free gear or levels. I'm not asking to solo the game, magically be full legendaries and max vr/emperor because I pay a sub. I am asking for a basic social feature of a game that has nothing to do with the game play of it. Having a tabard doesn't increase my stats, or gift me godlike strength and invulnerability. Where is this all coming from ? It makes no logical sense whatever to associate the two aspects of the game. They are separate in every way.

I didn't say "Hey I want a guild tabard for my small group of friends and I, by the way we also want to /kill wipe all zones upon entering them for free loot and auto quest completion."

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

I was talking about paying sub guaranteeing every player every bit of content in the game. There are things in the game that you have play a certain style to get, ie. trials rewards. Some of the best looking armors are only available by doing the trials. You can't get that stuff just by paying sub.

Now, tabards as a social element. What are they for? I would think that guild tabards are for guilds so they can stand out from other guilds. A way to say "I belong to this group". If anyone and everyone could buy a tabard they would kinda loose their purpose imo. Two of the guilds I'm in have tabards and it's not like I have any say in how the tabard looks. That's up to the guild leader and officers. All I can do is pay 2k and then wear the colors and that's what it's all about. Wearing the guild colors when we raid.

We agree that smaller groups should be able to get tabards or at least something similar. Personally I'd like to be able to make like a family insignia for my character. Something he could wear proudly on his armor. But lets leave tabards out of it. They should be for dedicated, organized guilds and they should have purpose and meaning in the game.

I don't really care about distinguishing myself as a PvE raider, nor do I see PvE raiding in a large guild the only value of a tabard. A small war band should be able to stand out in Cyrodil just the same as any other guild. If they put in effort, fight well and earn a reputation for themselves. Numbers are not a requirement for distinction, skill or a precursor to effort.

Tabards, are not the same as high tier raid loot. Nor should they be treated as such. As a social element, they allow groups to distinguish themselves from others. Are you seriously implying this is something that should only apply to large scale guilds? It's a very closed minded stance to take. It doesn't take away anything from larger guilds, which may or may not have more notoriety or whatever. But to suggest that only those in large groups have a right to distinguish themselves is quite backwards. Stop comparing tabards to raid loot. They are not the same.

No, I'll try to make my points clearer:

1. Regarding tabards vs. raid loot. You forget the subscription part. Someone here talked about how he should be able to get a tabard because he pays subscription. I was just pointing out that paying sub doesn't mean you should have immediate access to everything in the game.
2. I agree with you that smaller groups should be able to distinguish themselves from others. In fact, I want more things for smaller groups but I won't get into that here. However, you talk about tabards as a social element but if everyone and anyone can make their own tabard a lot that social element is lost imo. So, instead of demanding getting something that is devised for 10+ guilds, how about putting the thinking cap on and think of other ways to distinguish smaller groups. That's being open minded.

In point 2, how is that social element lost? The social element that says hey, I wear this tabard, so I am representing my group? If so, denying the smaller guilds (for they ARE guilds no matter how anyone tries to spin it) a tabard is the only way that takes away that social element. *shrug*

-Vann

Tabards with heraldry for groups is ok. (and I'm more than open to them being available for smaller groups) Tabards with heraldry for everyone is pointless and diminishes the social element since it will become just another costume item.

KleanZlate · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

I see a lot for you giving the reason for such restrictions as to limit the number of 1 man guilds.

Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.

A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.

Any type of restriction concerning "Guilds" which locks a paying customer out of the ability to have as well is a horrible idea.

NO OTHER GAME DOES THIS WITH GUILDS.

2nd, Why does Zennimax care if there are a bunch of 1 man guilds? Is their server so *** it can't handle the load? Because if that's the case the game is a lot more *** up then we've been lead to believe.

Just answer me this: What is stopping you from joining a guild and buying a tabard?

Canstaht · August 2014

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

I see a lot for you giving the reason for such restrictions as to limit the number of 1 man guilds.

Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.

A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.

Any type of restriction concerning "Guilds" which locks a paying customer out of the ability to have as well is a horrible idea.

NO OTHER GAME DOES THIS WITH GUILDS.

2nd, Why does Zennimax care if there are a bunch of 1 man guilds? Is their server so *** it can't handle the load? Because if that's the case the game is a lot more *** up then we've been lead to believe.

Just answer me this: What is stopping you from joining a guild and buying a tabard?

I have expressly stated I don't wish to join a large guild. I also don't see any reason why I should be forced to join a large guild, when I am happy with the small guild I have, and the people I enjoy playing with.

Just answer me this: What is stopping you from accepting another playstyle from your own. Why do you insist that everyone needs to meet some preordained large guild demand to have a tabard. Admittedly, 10 is not a overly large number. But when you only have 4-6 friends who play actively, and don't want to just invite random people into a guild for the sake of a requirement. I don't understand the marked aggression towards smaller guilds. No one is taking anything away from you or anyone else. It's hardly a large scale achievement or objective in reaching 10 members, the argument is this - Why is it limited to 10 members at all. Why are people allowed to make guilds, and then not allowed to have any features of a guild unless they have 10 members. It's really simple.

It's not asking for any game breaking changes, or detracting from anyone else. It doesn't ruin the game, to let small guilds have a tabard. So why not? really why not? some have stated they feel it makes the distinction less special. But how is it so special currently? As so many people have said it's easy to join a large guild or recruit random people. Why should we have to. Certain features of a game should be default that is my contention. I believe a tabard falls into that default category.

PBpsy · August 2014

Canstaht wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Zenimax should not impose any restrictions on players/guilds.

So much for them saying all players will have access to 100% of the game !

Does ZOS have you on a black list with people that are not allowed to get in or form a guild with 50 members? If not then you have access to that content. If you just ''REFUSE" to join that is your problem.

Why should a guild have to have 50 members before it is considered valid and a guild. "Play the game the way I play it, or too bad". There is a great hostility towards people discussing any form of suggestion to changes in the game and I cannot for one understand what all the white knight championing is about. Not every group has 50 members, nor wishes to have 50 members. Which should be respected, valid and not penalized.

It's not a refusal to join a large guild it's a choice not to be a part of one. Which you refuse to acknowledge.

Yes it is your choice and there is a consequence for that choice. Does ZOS " impose any restrictions" on you making that choice? No it does not, therefore you most definitely have access to that content.

Canstaht · August 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Zenimax should not impose any restrictions on players/guilds.

So much for them saying all players will have access to 100% of the game !

Does ZOS have you on a black list with people that are not allowed to get in or form a guild with 50 members? If not then you have access to that content. If you just ''REFUSE" to join that is your problem.

Why should a guild have to have 50 members before it is considered valid and a guild. "Play the game the way I play it, or too bad". There is a great hostility towards people discussing any form of suggestion to changes in the game and I cannot for one understand what all the white knight championing is about. Not every group has 50 members, nor wishes to have 50 members. Which should be respected, valid and not penalized.

It's not a refusal to join a large guild it's a choice not to be a part of one. Which you refuse to acknowledge.

Yes it is your choice and there is a consequence for that choice. Does ZOS " impose any restrictions" on you making that choice? No it does not, therefore you most definitely have access to that content.

While it is my choice not to join a guild. To suggest "Join a big guild or [snip]" is short sighted. That's the basic argument from people that detract from the idea of small guilds having a tabard. "join a big guild, too bad" "we don't approve of your kind around here". Very few detracting statements have been made that were even remotely open minded or expressing a reasonable contention as for why it's such a bad idea.

[edited to for profanity bypass]

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

I can see the point here for smaller hit squads in pvp. You want people to learn to fear the tabard but might not have ten people.

I still maintain that if they give us more options, this should be feasible. And yes I realize there are many permutations, but much of that is color variation. Charge wise it's very limited imo. Especially considering the very vast amount of charges in heraldry.

Canstaht · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

I can see the point here for smaller hit squads in pvp. You want people to learn to fear the tabard but might not have ten people.

I still maintain that if they give us more options, this should be feasible. And yes I realize there are many permutations, but much of that is color variation. Charge wise it's very limited imo. Especially considering the very vast amount of charges in heraldry.

This ^ exactly this. As for more variation I'm all for that.

Malpherian · August 2014

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

I see a lot for you giving the reason for such restrictions as to limit the number of 1 man guilds.

Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.

A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.

Any type of restriction concerning "Guilds" which locks a paying customer out of the ability to have as well is a horrible idea.

NO OTHER GAME DOES THIS WITH GUILDS.

2nd, Why does Zennimax care if there are a bunch of 1 man guilds? Is their server so *** it can't handle the load? Because if that's the case the game is a lot more *** up then we've been lead to believe.

Just answer me this: What is stopping you from joining a guild and buying a tabard?

Nothing, But that's not the point, that tabard would not be "My Guilds" tabard. it would be the "Other Guild 's Tabard". Which is the point.

Malpherian · August 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Zenimax should not impose any restrictions on players/guilds.

So much for them saying all players will have access to 100% of the game !

Does ZOS have you on a black list with people that are not allowed to get in or form a guild with 50 members? If not then you have access to that content. If you just ''REFUSE" to join that is your problem.

Why should a guild have to have 50 members before it is considered valid and a guild. "Play the game the way I play it, or too bad". There is a great hostility towards people discussing any form of suggestion to changes in the game and I cannot for one understand what all the white knight championing is about. Not every group has 50 members, nor wishes to have 50 members. Which should be respected, valid and not penalized.

It's not a refusal to join a large guild it's a choice not to be a part of one. Which you refuse to acknowledge.

Yes it is your choice and there is a consequence for that choice. Does ZOS " impose any restrictions" on you making that choice? No it does not, therefore you most definitely have access to that content.

Actually they do, the restriction is that if you Own your own guild and want a tabard you must have 10 people for it and a bank, and 50 for a store. Spin it however you want those are very definite and definitive restrictions on smaller groups of people. Who may just want to play with their RL friends.

Which detracts fromt he whole "Play the way you want with who you want" selling point of the game, and can be pointed out as a distinct contradiction to it. As smaller groups are "forced to recruit and play with people they do not want to" simply to have a tabard and bank/store.

Also those Guild features are pretty much a requirement to be any type of "real" guild in ESO. Considering with the new content just released and which will be released for guilds, these restrictions make it impossible for small groups of RL friends to access said content for themselves and their guilds even though they are paying for said services.

Which legally speaking can be seen as a direct violation of several consumer laws. (Technically). As the Consumer is paying for a service which is included with the product, and yet is not receiving it. (I am referring to the Guild content such as stores which is required for trading since ESO does not have an Auction house. Therby negating and restricting an Individual guild leaders ability to access said content for his or her guild, thereby ensuring said consumer does not have access to the Economy of the game itself (For their Guild), which is considered major content and/or said feature which he or she is paying for.)

The above and Guild housing when it is added are major content, and a subscriber paying for ESO should have "access" to said content regardless of their guild's size. because they are "paying for said content".

xaraan · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

eh, I don't think a ten person limit is asking much

That's not always the case though.
A little while ago there was a thread made by some guy who just wanted to make a small guild for himself and his family. There were four of them, himself, the wife and two kids. But because there were not 10 members of this guild they were unable to get certain guild functions !
Now to be fair, this guy had obviously brought 4 copies of the game and was paying 4 subs and yet they still couldn't get access to stuff they were paying for ! That's hardly right, or fair now is it ?

Even if a single player wants to start their own guild they should be allowed to AND have access to the stuff bigger guilds do ! These players have paid their subs just like the rest of us. They still have to pay the same amount of gold for upgrades and other guild stuff (in fact its actually harder for them as just one person has to pay the cost for everything)
It's possibly going to be a very empty/lonely guild, but if that's what people want to do it should be their choice, not Zenimax's

I see what you are saying, I did before, I just disagree. You are getting the same features - the feature is that you can have tabbards and guild banks at ten members, you can have guild store at more. That's the feature - not a guild store just b/c you want it, that isn't the feature the game offers (and opening it up that much would be ridiculous IMO for things like banks, then every player would just start their own guild to have a bigger bank - though I do think the tabbard is a slightly lesser issue I like that it's a "team" thing and not an individual thing). Really, you (and the example you posted) are asking for features in the game to be changed to suit your needs, not that there is anything wrong with that - as a customer it's your right to request what you want, but it's not the same as something needing 'fixing' or not getting what you paid for. Which is why my first post was so short, I didn't see the need to address all this since I was simply stating that I liked the way it worked now, which was obviously a different opinion than yours.

Canstaht · August 2014

xaraan wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

eh, I don't think a ten person limit is asking much

That's not always the case though.
A little while ago there was a thread made by some guy who just wanted to make a small guild for himself and his family. There were four of them, himself, the wife and two kids. But because there were not 10 members of this guild they were unable to get certain guild functions !
Now to be fair, this guy had obviously brought 4 copies of the game and was paying 4 subs and yet they still couldn't get access to stuff they were paying for ! That's hardly right, or fair now is it ?

Even if a single player wants to start their own guild they should be allowed to AND have access to the stuff bigger guilds do ! These players have paid their subs just like the rest of us. They still have to pay the same amount of gold for upgrades and other guild stuff (in fact its actually harder for them as just one person has to pay the cost for everything)
It's possibly going to be a very empty/lonely guild, but if that's what people want to do it should be their choice, not Zenimax's

I see what you are saying, I did before, I just disagree. You are getting the same features - the feature is that you can have tabbards and guild banks at ten members, you can have guild store at more. That's the feature - not a guild store just b/c you want it, that isn't the feature the game offers (and opening it up that much would be ridiculous IMO for things like banks, then every player would just start their own guild to have a bigger bank - though I do think the tabbard is a slightly lesser issue I like that it's a "team" thing and not an individual thing). Really, you (and the example you posted) are asking for features in the game to be changed to suit your needs, not that there is anything wrong with that - as a customer it's your right to request what you want, but it's not the same as something needing 'fixing' or not getting what you paid for. Which is why my first post was so short, I didn't see the need to address all this since I was simply stating that I liked the way it worked now, which was obviously a different opinion than yours.

I appreciate your comment and thank your for posing a level counter point. I am not asking for a bank, or a store - personally. If 10 people are needed for a bank, and 50 are needed for a store, why not 5 needed for a tabard ? since incremental incentives seem to be appreciated by a larger majority.

The issue, is a small squad in AvA, should, in my opinion be able to have a tabard. To stand out and distinguish themselves. It is no less valid a style of play, than a raid guild that wants to form up large numbers for raid content, or even the big AvA guilds. It's all a matter of preference. And while I respect other peoples preferences, I would like to get the same consideration. They don't want small guilds to have a bank, or store. I've made peace with that myself. But this tabard issue, I really can't quite see how it's such a big deal to allow a smaller guild the ability to have one. But you like the way it is now, and that's fine. I only ask you not begrudge me for trying to change something, in a way I see to be positive. Something that does, directly effect me in game and my enjoyment of it. I'd point out, something that doesn't effect other players in a negative way, for that matter.

It also doesn't grant me any benefit or advantage over other players, either. (As extra bank space for a one man guild has been argued to be unfair) not the same with tabards.

Malpherian · August 2014

xaraan wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

eh, I don't think a ten person limit is asking much

That's not always the case though.
A little while ago there was a thread made by some guy who just wanted to make a small guild for himself and his family. There were four of them, himself, the wife and two kids. But because there were not 10 members of this guild they were unable to get certain guild functions !
Now to be fair, this guy had obviously brought 4 copies of the game and was paying 4 subs and yet they still couldn't get access to stuff they were paying for ! That's hardly right, or fair now is it ?

Even if a single player wants to start their own guild they should be allowed to AND have access to the stuff bigger guilds do ! These players have paid their subs just like the rest of us. They still have to pay the same amount of gold for upgrades and other guild stuff (in fact its actually harder for them as just one person has to pay the cost for everything)
It's possibly going to be a very empty/lonely guild, but if that's what people want to do it should be their choice, not Zenimax's

I see what you are saying, I did before, I just disagree. You are getting the same features - the feature is that you can have tabbards and guild banks at ten members, you can have guild store at more. That's the feature - not a guild store just b/c you want it, that isn't the feature the game offers (and opening it up that much would be ridiculous IMO for things like banks, then every player would just start their own guild to have a bigger bank - though I do think the tabbard is a slightly lesser issue I like that it's a "team" thing and not an individual thing). Really, you (and the example you posted) are asking for features in the game to be changed to suit your needs, not that there is anything wrong with that - as a customer it's your right to request what you want, but it's not the same as something needing 'fixing' or not getting what you paid for. Which is why my first post was so short, I didn't see the need to address all this since I was simply stating that I liked the way it worked now, which was obviously a different opinion than yours.

Not having access to the game economy for your guild is in fact a violation of consumer laws since a Game economy is considered major content and is covered under what is included with the game itself and it's services.

Putting the economy itself behind a Member limit wall, is basically saying Hey, unless you ahve 10 members you do not get to access the ability to buy trade or sell anything you own. And since ESO has no other form of economy beyond guild stores this permits relevance for violation of said consumer agreements and laws.

Your a paying customer, you are paying for a service, and are not receiving it. Other players should have 0 determination on what features you receive as an individual paying consumer. Other people are not responsible for paying your game time, so neither are they responsible for ensuring YOU as an individual receive access to said services.

That is ZOS's job.

Let me give you a Real World example. Comcast sells you internet for 14.99 per month but tells you you can only access your bank online if their are 10 people in your home. Or you can only purchase things from Amazon if you ahve 50 in your home.

Comcast would be put out of business because of consumer rights violations within a week.

And yes, it is the exact same thing. Just because a company states that you need (this and this) to do stuff on a service you are already paying for. Does not absolve them of their legal responsibility to provide said content to their paying customer anyway, when it is a service which is included with the original price of the Product.

Now if zennimax wanted to microtransacton it and say, Hey for guild activity you need to pay another 10$ one time Fee to include the bank, the store, and tabard. They could in fact get away with it. But it it's current form the system is 100% illegal.

The reason no one gets bent about it is because not very many people care, and not very many people realize it. And even less actually have the money to sue for it.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Alphashado · August 2014

In order to qualify as a guild you need 10 people. Otherwise you are just a small collection of friends. What you are asking is like walking into a nice supper club with a sign on the door that says "group discount for parties 10 or more", and demanding the group discount even though you only have 7.

Malpherian · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

In order to qualify as a guild you need 10 people. Otherwise you are just a small collection of friends. What you are asking is like walking into a nice supper club with a sign on the door that says "group discount for parties 10 or more", and demanding the group discount even though you only have 7.

Actually that example is entirely irrelevant. ZOS isn't offering a discount for subs based on Guild membership, they are restricting a service which you are paying for based on how many people you have in a guild.

The correct example would be as I stated above, Comcast saying you can use the internet for 14.99 a month but you can't access your bank online, or buy anything or sell anything over the internet unless you have 10-50 people living at your house.

Which is highly illegal. And violates any number of consumer laws.

ZOS isn't the first game to "try" and restrict things like that based on guild membership. They are just the first to last 6 months without being sued for it.

Why do you think NO OTHER MMO has any kind of restrictions like that? Especially when the guild has a store that ties into the Games economy?

Because it is a Violation of consumer laws due to the fact that it is restricting an individuals access to "major" game content based solely on other unrelated parties actions.

If no one wants to join your guild, you WIll effectively NEVER have access to said content. meaning you are most definitely paying for a service you are not receiving.

Canstaht · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

In order to qualify as a guild you need 10 people. Otherwise you are just a small collection of friends. What you are asking is like walking into a nice supper club with a sign on the door that says "group discount for parties 10 or more", and demanding the group discount even though you only have 7.

It's actually nothing like that. Considering we pay for a subscription to the game. It's also not a demand, it's a request. Which is marked distinct difference, by virtue the purchase is already made. I'm not asking for a special discount. I'm asking for a revision to a current system that is in place, in favor for something that does not bar and prohibit small guilds from having access to a simple, basic feature.

Alphashado · August 2014

You aren't paying for a tabard. You are paying to play the game. Nowhere in any description for the game does it say that paying a subscription grants you access to every single thing in the game. The tabard is a guild perk.

Definition of perk:

3perk
noun

: something extra that someone receives in addition to regular pay for doing a job

: a good thing that you have or get because of your situation

The guild tabard is something extra that you get for being in a guild. A guild is defined by 10 or more people. I just can't understand why people feel so entitled. If you want a tabard than join a guild like the rest of us did.

Malpherian · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

You aren't paying for a tabard. You are paying to play the game. Nowhere in any description for the game does it say that paying a subscription grants you access to every single thing in the game. The tabard is a guild perk.

Definition of perk:

3perk
noun

: something extra that someone receives in addition to regular pay for doing a job

: a good thing that you have or get because of your situation

The guild tabard is something extra that you get for being in a guild. A guild is defined by 10 or more people. I just can't understand why people feel so entitled. If you want a tabard than join a guild like the rest of us did.

Actually your paying to access the content in the game. Guilds, Tabards, Banks, Stores and the Economy are all Inherent required features you need access to in order to even "play the game" "TO IT'S FULL EXTENT".

People do not pay to "play" a game. They pay for the content in the game which they will be "playing".

I own an Ebay store, I have had to study consumer laws intimately. If I charged 600$ for "gaming" computer but said the graphics card was only included if you could get 10 people to sign saying you actually played games with it. I would get my ass sued to hell and back.

ZOS does the exact same thing with Guilds. They advertise them and all their great features and content and say this is what you get when you pay to access our game. Then you get into the game and realize that unless you have 10-50 other people you can NEVER access those features.

Which were advertised as "included" with your purchase, which you purchased convinced by ZOS that you would have access to which you now realize you don't have access to and wont because your guild is only 4 people made up of your RL friends.

Do you sue for it? of course not, you don't have the money to take on ZOS and Beth the richest Gaming Company in the US. No instead you cancel your sub and do a charge back on paypal, because if you can't play with your friends, why would you play the game?

Malpherian · August 2014

Either way you slice it, whether it's not legal and a violation of consumer laws, or just that you can't access the content and just play with your friends, whether you sue ZOS for it, or unsubscribe,.

ITS A HORRIBLE BUSINESS DECISION ON Zos's part. As it makes players have to choose between playing with their friends and not having access to content, or playing another game with their friends and having access to ALL guild content.

Either way the current system costs ZOS money and subscribers. Therefore it is a horrible idea and business decision.

A gaming company should never make a player choose between their game, and their real life friends and family. The company will lose almost every single time.

Iorail · August 2014

Canstaht wrote: »

I just want to say, that I did not mean to come off so defensive towards others and I am genuinely sorry if anyone has taken issue to my statements. My goal is not to come off self entitled or as merely deflecting others to get my way. I have become a bit frustrated with trying to voice my opinion and I just want to be heard. The tabard thing is something I miss from when I played DAoC, it's partly a nostalgia thing and also the distinction of standing out of course even if only a little. I don't want to have to join a large guild and I don't want to just recruit people to recruit people, either.

Then it's YOUR choice to have no tabard as you don't want to do nothing to get it by the game means.....So this entire thread is null and void in all sense, as you said it yourself, you want to do nothing to get it at all but still want it. By this, along, this thread should be close and done with.

Iorail · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

You aren't paying for a tabard. You are paying to play the game. Nowhere in any description for the game does it say that paying a subscription grants you access to every single thing in the game. The tabard is a guild perk.

Definition of perk:

3perk
noun

: something extra that someone receives in addition to regular pay for doing a job

: a good thing that you have or get because of your situation

The guild tabard is something extra that you get for being in a guild. A guild is defined by 10 or more people. I just can't understand why people feel so entitled. If you want a tabard than join a guild like the rest of us did.

Actually your paying to access the content in the game. Guilds, Tabards, Banks, Stores and the Economy are all Inherent required features you need access to in order to even "play the game" "TO IT'S FULL EXTENT".

People do not pay to "play" a game. They pay for the content in the game which they will be "playing".

I own an Ebay store, I have had to study consumer laws intimately. If I charged 600$ for "gaming" computer but said the graphics card was only included if you could get 10 people to sign saying you actually played games with it. I would get my ass sued to hell and back.

ZOS does the exact same thing with Guilds. They advertise them and all their great features and content and say this is what you get when you pay to access our game. Then you get into the game and realize that unless you have 10-50 other people you can NEVER access those features.

Which were advertised as "included" with your purchase, which you purchased convinced by ZOS that you would have access to which you now realize you don't have access to and wont because your guild is only 4 people made up of your RL friends.

Do you sue for it? of course not, you don't have the money to take on ZOS and Beth the richest Gaming Company in the US. No instead you cancel your sub and do a charge back on paypal, because if you can't play with your friends, why would you play the game?

There are so many ways this is all wrong but it'll just point out the main reason why. You pay to play the game, nothing else. Everything else that is perks and extra, including the tabard, have requirements that you must fulfill, and that is the way it is, don't matter how you want to spin it off and Bold the entire text.

On your logic, just because you pay the sub, you should have at no extra cost/effort access to: All vanity pets, all horses, all legendary gear, max level the second you log in, millions in gold, thousands of boosters, etc, etc. Get a grip and once again, typing in bold it's not going to make your null point any more as you have no argument.

bosmern_ESO · August 2014

Canstaht wrote: »

Dear Zenimax, why do you punish small guilds? No guild bank for guilds under 10 members, alright. I don't agree with it, but I'm over it. However, to deny a small guild the ability to make and have a heraldry and tabard, is pretty much against the core principle of freedom to play the way you want that Elder scrolls is known for. I petition for the member requirement for guild heraldry be removed. I see no possible reason to prevent smaller guilds from having it, it doesn't effect game play mechanics or abuse anything.

I would like an explanation for this, truly.

Guilds are for a large group of people who seek the same play style/endgame goal, that is why you must be a large guild for heraldry. ESO can't be exactly like the ES games because its a MMO and its near impossible for a MMO to follow the same recipe as a single RPG. Not only that, It's pretty clear that Zenimax wants and encourages people to group up and form these communities, that is one of the reasons why ESO exists, to allow people who love the franchise to team up and play the game together.

Malpherian · August 2014

Iorail wrote: »

stuff

Actually your paying to access the content in the game. Guilds, Tabards, Banks, Stores and the Economy are all Inherent required features you need access to in order to even "play the game" "TO IT'S FULL EXTENT".

People do not "Pay to Play" a game, they pay for the content in the game because the content is what sells the game and makes or breaks it. Last I checked, guild banks and stores were part of the economy, and tabards a guild feature. ZOS doesn't advertise the details of acquiring these or the game breaking restrictions to small RL Friends groups, you don't find out about these until you buy the game and realize you can't access them.

Even though ZOS advertsies them like anybody can, like every other MMO where in fact Everyone "Can" access these features.

It's a bit shady honestly.

Canstaht · August 2014

Iorail wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

I just want to say, that I did not mean to come off so defensive towards others and I am genuinely sorry if anyone has taken issue to my statements. My goal is not to come off self entitled or as merely deflecting others to get my way. I have become a bit frustrated with trying to voice my opinion and I just want to be heard. The tabard thing is something I miss from when I played DAoC, it's partly a nostalgia thing and also the distinction of standing out of course even if only a little. I don't want to have to join a large guild and I don't want to just recruit people to recruit people, either.

Then it's YOUR choice to have no tabard as you don't want to do nothing to get it by the game means.....So this entire thread is null and void in all sense, as you said it yourself, you want to do nothing to get it at all but still want it. By this, along, this thread should be close and done with.

Actually, by making this thread I am doing something to try and change it. This thread is not null and void, nor is it lacking all sense. I don't want to get something for doing nothing. I have a guild, and you can say that it's defined as having 10+ members, that's arbitrary. Because I have a guild, already. So clearly, a guild is not defined as having 10+ members, or a small guild wouldn't exist, and this whole post wouldn't have happened. So either, ZOS should go on record with an official statement that "10+ members is a guild, anything less, is not" or, consider a possible change. I'm giving feedback, whether you like my opinion or not, I am allowed to post on this public forum my feedback, suggestions and requests. So, what's with all the beef? How dare anyone else have an opinion, ever.

Canstaht · August 2014

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

Dear Zenimax, why do you punish small guilds? No guild bank for guilds under 10 members, alright. I don't agree with it, but I'm over it. However, to deny a small guild the ability to make and have a heraldry and tabard, is pretty much against the core principle of freedom to play the way you want that Elder scrolls is known for. I petition for the member requirement for guild heraldry be removed. I see no possible reason to prevent smaller guilds from having it, it doesn't effect game play mechanics or abuse anything.

I would like an explanation for this, truly.

Guilds are for a large group of people who seek the same play style/endgame goal, that is why you must be a large guild for heraldry. ESO can't be exactly like the ES games because its a MMO and its near impossible for a MMO to follow the same recipe as a single RPG. Not only that, It's pretty clear that Zenimax wants and encourages people to group up and form these communities, that is one of the reasons why ESO exists, to allow people who love the franchise to team up and play the game together.

*Guilds are for groups of people who seek the same play style/endgame goal.

ZOS_AlexD · August 2014

Hello everyone. Just a friendly reminder to remain constructive when discussing the thread topic. You do not have to agree with everyone else, but please present your opinion without resorting to personal comments. Thank you.