Siluen wrote: »

I'm in one of these small friend-guilds, and we have exactly 9 members right now!

What I would like to know however: If we got a random person to join up and raise our number to 10, would we lose our guild heraldry when we thanked him for the effort and dropped back down to 9?

You will keep those you have, but you won't be able to change the heraldry or buy more tabards from the store.

Iorail wrote: »

People, it's not 10, you need 10 to create the tabard but you need 50 and the store open to buy/use the tabard... Besides, you want the tabard that bad? Spam chat and recruit 50+ and part to god they don't leave or drop below 50 as you will loose the store and tabard.

You can access the store at 10 solely to buy a tabard, you don't need 50 for that. (You can access the store anyway, at any time.) 50 is needed to buy and sell members' goods in the store.

To alleviate the problem by the OP, requirement for Heraldry should be dropped to 4 (standard "group" size).

So individuals should have access to guild functions because they pay the sub? Where does it end though? Should you be able to solo group dungeons and trials because you pay the fee just like those coordinate together in groups? What about all the content that's "locked" behind Craglorn and Cyrodiil? Should that be made available to everyone just for paying the sub?

A guild is a guild. It's intended for larger groups. I'm not against lowering the requirements for tabards to 4-5 members but don't give me this bs about it being about getting what you deserve for the sub.

It's typical that there's nobody from Zenimax replying in this topic.

Enodoc wrote: »

Navuri wrote: »

It's typical that there's nobody from Zenimax replying in this topic.

Only typical by the fact that, on average, they reply to less threads than they don't reply to. Nobody's even tagged a dev/mod in this thread yet.

That's a weird assumption you're making. So, in order to have them respond to things that are being asked by the community we as players have to 'know' them and ask them to come and reply instead of them (the developers) just browsing the forums and responding to the questions players are asking.

That's the world on it's head. I don't yell 'answer this please'. They have to yell: We've fixed it! It's their game, but I'm paying for it. So don't give me this tag nonsense. Let them read the forums, just as well as I do. It's their job for crying out loud. Do we need a carrot on a virtual stick to get them to pretty please with sugar on top to reply to us? Get real.

Again: Guild heraldry for everyone.

Heishi wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

I never asked for the game to be easy. I don't want easy content, game play should be difficult and rewarding. Social elements are a personal preference and have nothing to do with being spoon fed anything. I would rather be a part of a small band, achieving something with more effort and greater difficulty, than a large group zerging something to manage the same conclusion. I do not welcome hand holding in video games. It's an entirely different issue to the one I posed however. It seems anyone makes a suggestion or gives their opinion and it differs from the mainstream these days everybody just wants to squash it.

So I'll ask you that very question, why does everyone have to try and silence someone for having an opinion? The stance of dismissal, scoffing at the very idea that a small guild should be 'allowed' the same privileges as other Paying customers, mind you. I find highly unreasonable.

When it comes to game content, I agree game play mechanics should present the player with challenges, otherwise the experience is not rewarding. I do not see any correlation to that and the social element of the game at all.

MY point that comment was that YOU might want a challenge. But there exist people who want to godmode through everything.

Canstaht wrote: »

to deny a small guild the ability to make and have a heraldry and tabard, is pretty much against the core principle of freedom to play the way you want that Elder scrolls is known for. I petition for the member requirement for guild heraldry be removed.

"Play the way you want", you noted the no heraldry/tabard goes against it. The no godmode and unable to walk through walls and such goes against the way some people want to play. Some people want to be able to bash enemies over the head with lutes. There are limits to playing the way you want and it has to apply equally to all players from all walks of life and most parts of the world.

I am all for people posting any opinion they like, it's what makes the age of technology great. I just think it is silly to try to use the "play the way you want" as a defense of the opinion. I have a small guild with 3 people in it. I would love to have a herald, but I don't feel like recruiting additional people to get it. I don't feel I am being punished, I feel I'm being lazy

Small guilds are "allowed" the exact same privileges as other guilds, if they put in the effort to grow they are rewarded. It's like saying a level 5 character should be as strong as a level 10 character. Or if you prefer, it's like saying people who are new players are being "punished" because they can't afford a horse, and they definitely can't afford the good horse. Why should a "new" guild get the same benefits and a large well established guild that put many hours into developing it. I'm not saying your guild is new, but what applies to new guilds and small guilds is the same.

I do have a plausible solution though. Zeni would have to restructure the guilds a bit, but they're not terribly developed anyway. Rather than have the guild perks (bank, herald, store, hall one day maybe ) be based on number of members, they could have a leveling system, maybe throw in some guild quests that offer more points to advance the guild faster. Or maybe set up a "currency" like the alliance points that allows the guild perks to be bought.

Having a guild tabard, is hardly the same as wanting to be handed a level ten character, when you are level five. The comparison is flawed. You pay money, to play this game. You have a right as an individual, with a subscription to certain elements of a game. If a game is advertised in a way that lends to you being able to have an open playstyle, and choice in how you enjoy the game. I say that it is a valid point to use in an argument. I didn't tell them to advertise it that way. However, if you're going to make a claim, and have people pay money for something then, Yes, it becomes a valid point for something of this nature. You need 50 people in a guild to even purchase a tabard apparently? I find that hardly fair. Needing 10 to make the tabard in the first place, is also unfair. And why? It's easy, attach an in game monetary value for having a tabard, for acquiring a guild bank, and increasing it's slots. Place a monetary value on creation of a tabard. It might make more time to get one as a smaller guild, but you have the option for it. The simple restriction of access is my point of contention. And the blanket "oh you need 10 members" to get it, it's such a careless solution in my opinion. I get people not wanting a function abused, ie one man guild bank. But to be honest if they just handled the guild bank the same way as an individual bank, what's the problem? That small guild has to work together, and earn the gold to expand it, seems reasonable enough to me. But the tabard issue really sticks with me, because it has no effect on game play, it doesn't afford any advantages and I shouldn't have to work at the game, to be able to have fun playing it. The "Oh just go out and work hard to recruit 50 people and get a tabard" I don't want to 'work' hard, for something I already work For, and Pay for, to be something to enjoy as down time with friends. This is a game, to be played and have Fun with. I'm lazy ? because I want a tabard? seriously? How does that make sense. And this arbitrary comment about being spoon fed content, has nothing to do with anything. I don't want to join a guild full of 50 people, It's not what I care to do. Now, if I met other players in game that wanted to join our small guild, yes I would be open to it. But the principle of recruiting people simply to get content, is not what I am looking to do. The whole purpose of a small guild is the atmosphere, as pointed out by Audigy.

One of the best things about an MMO, or any experience really in a broad general sense - is the people you share it with. I don't care for drama or nonsense infighting, and not all large guilds are bad. I'm not taking a swipe at large guilds that run well and are a close knit group. But my experience with large guilds in the main has been far from pleasant. If it's your cup of tea, go for it. I don't feel you should be barred from content simply because you are in a larger guild or whatnot, but to think that smaller guilds don't deserve the same access of content in a Subscription game, where we are All paying the same fee. People who have been here since launch and pre-ordered and stuck around and supported the game even. A game is not supposed to be work, do not read this statement as a game is not meant to be challenging, because these are separate concepts. You can be challenged, and enjoy it. Even have fun doing it. I do not see where wanting a guild tabard, has anything to do with wanting to be handed a max level character with legendary gear. It is not even remotely the same.

I don't understand the staunch opposition to a small guild being able to acquire a tabard. It doesn't effect you, if you are not in a small guild and it's easy to dismiss and brush off with "just go recruit and work hard and put effort" but that is what you want to do, which is great. But I don't want to work and recruit people, recruiting people outside of a hardcore PvP/raiding guild is really somewhat pointless and to manage a large guild well is a great deal of work, it's a second job and a labor of passion for some. I've lead serious end game guilds before, I got my t-shirt. I just want to be able to enjoy a game with my friends and that honestly should not be too much to ask. Considering I am already paying for it in the first place.

I do appreciate all the supportive posts though, thank you all for chipping in. Even if it doesn't change anything, I think it should be brought to the attention of Zenimax as food for thought if nothing else.

Phantax wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

eh, I don't think a ten person limit is asking much

That's not always the case though.
A little while ago there was a thread made by some guy who just wanted to make a small guild for himself and his family. There were four of them, himself, the wife and two kids. But because there were not 10 members of this guild they were unable to get certain guild functions !
Now to be fair, this guy had obviously brought 4 copies of the game and was paying 4 subs and yet they still couldn't get access to stuff they were paying for ! That's hardly right, or fair now is it ?

Even if a single player wants to start their own guild they should be allowed to AND have access to the stuff bigger guilds do ! These players have paid their subs just like the rest of us. They still have to pay the same amount of gold for upgrades and other guild stuff (in fact its actually harder for them as just one person has to pay the cost for everything)
It's possibly going to be a very empty/lonely guild, but if that's what people want to do it should be their choice, not Zenimax's

^ Basically, this. Phantax put it very well.

I want a tabard as well, but my guild is only 6 friends I know outside the game. We tried opening our guild up to the public and I was posting recruitment invites in zone for four days straight and not one single person joined. I tried switching up the message to no avail. I tried everything. Nobody wanted to join. For new guilds, recruiting is tough. Everyone just wants to join these 400+ guilds.

Phantax wrote: »

Zenimax should not impose any restrictions on players/guilds.

So much for them saying all players will have access to 100% of the game !

Does ZOS have you on a black list with people that are not allowed to get in or form a guild with 50 members? If not then you have access to that content. If you just ''REFUSE" to join that is your problem.

Canstaht wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

So individuals should have access to guild functions because they pay the sub? Where does it end though? Should you be able to solo group dungeons and trials because you pay the fee just like those coordinate together in groups? What about all the content that's "locked" behind Craglorn and Cyrodiil? Should that be made available to everyone just for paying the sub?

A guild is a guild. It's intended for larger groups. I'm not against lowering the requirements for tabards to 4-5 members but don't give me this bs about it being about getting what you deserve for the sub.

I don't see where asking for a social element of a game, has anything to do with a game play aspect. You are not the first to draw this conclusion but it honestly baffles me.

People should not be handed game content, or given any free gear or levels. I'm not asking to solo the game, magically be full legendaries and max vr/emperor because I pay a sub. I am asking for a basic social feature of a game that has nothing to do with the game play of it. Having a tabard doesn't increase my stats, or gift me godlike strength and invulnerability. Where is this all coming from ? It makes no logical sense whatever to associate the two aspects of the game. They are separate in every way.

I didn't say "Hey I want a guild tabard for my small group of friends and I, by the way we also want to /kill wipe all zones upon entering them for free loot and auto quest completion."

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

I was talking about paying sub guaranteeing every player every bit of content in the game. There are things in the game that you have play a certain style to get, ie. trials rewards. Some of the best looking armors are only available by doing the trials. You can't get that stuff just by paying sub.

Now, tabards as a social element. What are they for? I would think that guild tabards are for guilds so they can stand out from other guilds. A way to say "I belong to this group". If anyone and everyone could buy a tabard they would kinda loose their purpose imo. Two of the guilds I'm in have tabards and it's not like I have any say in how the tabard looks. That's up to the guild leader and officers. All I can do is pay 2k and then wear the colors and that's what it's all about. Wearing the guild colors when we raid.

We agree that smaller groups should be able to get tabards or at least something similar. Personally I'd like to be able to make like a family insignia for my character. Something he could wear proudly on his armor. But lets leave tabards out of it. They should be for dedicated, organized guilds and they should have purpose and meaning in the game.

So what number of people do you think a guild should have to enable tabards?

I read someone suggesting 4, as that is the "small group" limit.

And if tabards are not available to a guild the size as yours, what other ways would you envision to distinguish yourself as a group?

I would think being able to dye your armour in the same colours as your group members would achieve a similar end result, and that is pretty much available to all players.

Canstaht wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »

So individuals should have access to guild functions because they pay the sub? Where does it end though? Should you be able to solo group dungeons and trials because you pay the fee just like those coordinate together in groups? What about all the content that's "locked" behind Craglorn and Cyrodiil? Should that be made available to everyone just for paying the sub?

A guild is a guild. It's intended for larger groups. I'm not against lowering the requirements for tabards to 4-5 members but don't give me this bs about it being about getting what you deserve for the sub.

I don't see where asking for a social element of a game, has anything to do with a game play aspect. You are not the first to draw this conclusion but it honestly baffles me.

People should not be handed game content, or given any free gear or levels. I'm not asking to solo the game, magically be full legendaries and max vr/emperor because I pay a sub. I am asking for a basic social feature of a game that has nothing to do with the game play of it. Having a tabard doesn't increase my stats, or gift me godlike strength and invulnerability. Where is this all coming from ? It makes no logical sense whatever to associate the two aspects of the game. They are separate in every way.

I didn't say "Hey I want a guild tabard for my small group of friends and I, by the way we also want to /kill wipe all zones upon entering them for free loot and auto quest completion."

I just want a tabard, it's a simple enough request, it doesn't effect game play. So all these comments of "oh you just want to be spoon fed absolute victory in the game" are not at all on topic.

I was talking about paying sub guaranteeing every player every bit of content in the game. There are things in the game that you have play a certain style to get, ie. trials rewards. Some of the best looking armors are only available by doing the trials. You can't get that stuff just by paying sub.

Now, tabards as a social element. What are they for? I would think that guild tabards are for guilds so they can stand out from other guilds. A way to say "I belong to this group". If anyone and everyone could buy a tabard they would kinda loose their purpose imo. Two of the guilds I'm in have tabards and it's not like I have any say in how the tabard looks. That's up to the guild leader and officers. All I can do is pay 2k and then wear the colors and that's what it's all about. Wearing the guild colors when we raid.

We agree that smaller groups should be able to get tabards or at least something similar. Personally I'd like to be able to make like a family insignia for my character. Something he could wear proudly on his armor. But lets leave tabards out of it. They should be for dedicated, organized guilds and they should have purpose and meaning in the game.

I don't really care about distinguishing myself as a PvE raider, nor do I see PvE raiding in a large guild the only value of a tabard. A small war band should be able to stand out in Cyrodil just the same as any other guild. If they put in effort, fight well and earn a reputation for themselves. Numbers are not a requirement for distinction, skill or a precursor to effort.

Tabards, are not the same as high tier raid loot. Nor should they be treated as such. As a social element, they allow groups to distinguish themselves from others. Are you seriously implying this is something that should only apply to large scale guilds? It's a very closed minded stance to take. It doesn't take away anything from larger guilds, which may or may not have more notoriety or whatever. But to suggest that only those in large groups have a right to distinguish themselves is quite backwards. Stop comparing tabards to raid loot. They are not the same.

No, I'll try to make my points clearer:

1. Regarding tabards vs. raid loot. You forget the subscription part. Someone here talked about how he should be able to get a tabard because he pays subscription. I was just pointing out that paying sub doesn't mean you should have immediate access to everything in the game.
2. I agree with you that smaller groups should be able to distinguish themselves from others. In fact, I want more things for smaller groups but I won't get into that here. However, you talk about tabards as a social element but if everyone and anyone can make their own tabard a lot that social element is lost imo. So, instead of demanding getting something that is devised for 10+ guilds, how about putting the thinking cap on and think of other ways to distinguish smaller groups. That's being open minded.

Heishi wrote: »

Really the "Play the way you want" advertising has to be one of the worst things I've seen. A good portion, if not most arguments for why we are "entitled" to have something end up with someone bringing it up. You can play the way you want in that you get a lot of customization options (viable or not).

This. It's been brought up so much it's lost all meaning.

In regards to the minimum requirements, maybe ZOS could look into lowering the line, but there should probably still be a minimum. Without it, at best you would see a lot of one person guilds just to add some fashion to a character. At worst, it would be effortless to copy the only thing that displays guild membership for the purpose of causing trouble.

Canstaht wrote: »

The problem is, there should not be an enforced requirement in a game that is supposed to allow freedom to play and enjoy it how you want. If a small guild wants to have a tabard, what does it hurt ? It harms no one, it doesn't change game play or award any advantage.

Basically by all responses so far, either join a large guild, recruit more people. Or too bad? That's ridiculous. I pay the same monthly sub everyone else does. Why should content be access restricted to me, that doesn't otherwise effect game play. Banks and stores are different and I have no interest in having a guild store. And I don't care about the bank space, I find it petty, but the tabard there is no excuse for it. No reason why a small guild should be denied a tabard.

Oh fgs, join a guild with a tabard, uncheck all the chat commands for that guild, forget you ever joined but still have your tabard.

Problem solved.

Edit: Inphantax, he has the same content as we all do. NONE of us can make a guild of 4 and have banks and stores and tabards. That argument is null and void.

Of course, if you think a sub should give you all that, then the guy just needs to buy 6 more copies of the game and then he can have the LAN party he wanted all along.

KariTR wrote: »

Canstaht wrote: »

The problem is, there should not be an enforced requirement in a game that is supposed to allow freedom to play and enjoy it how you want. If a small guild wants to have a tabard, what does it hurt ? It harms no one, it doesn't change game play or award any advantage.

Basically by all responses so far, either join a large guild, recruit more people. Or too bad? That's ridiculous. I pay the same monthly sub everyone else does. Why should content be access restricted to me, that doesn't otherwise effect game play. Banks and stores are different and I have no interest in having a guild store. And I don't care about the bank space, I find it petty, but the tabard there is no excuse for it. No reason why a small guild should be denied a tabard.

Oh fgs, join a guild with a tabard, uncheck all the chat commands for that guild, forget you ever joined but still have your tabard.

Problem solved.

Edit: Inphantax, he has the same content as we all do. NONE of us can make a guild of 4 and have banks and stores and tabards. That argument is null and void.

Of course, if you think a sub should give you all that, then the guy just needs to buy 6 more copies of the game and then he can have the LAN party he wanted all along.

To propose that I buy five copies of the game, just to be able to get a tabard is a bit much. Joining a guild just to get Their tabard, is hardly a solution at all.

Navuri wrote: »

We need a few more views in this topic before anyone from Zenimax will reply here. Or we could start whining about Whiterun vanity pets. That always makes the employees run as fast as possible and fix things right away. Now I'll go back to my 'guild' of 6 (real life) friends ingame, which isn't considered a real guild by Zenimax. Seriously, I am sick of this dumb restriction. Fix it a.s.a.p.

I could care less about the vanity pet, that's a whole other debate entirely. One I know some are up in arms about. It was a special promotional deal, I get that. Separate issue, as heraldry is a part of the core game itself, and a part of the guild system. Discrimination towards small guilds is unfair, I saw the argument for the bank space. But heraldry affords no special bonus or advantage and the decision to put a restriction on it, is something I am extremely disappointed with.