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Guild Heraldry for small guilds.
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Canstaht✭✭✭
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeraldryI would like an explanation for this, truly.
"... from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander" ..."
You can't be an "Army Commander" without an army ...
Heraldry is not restricted to an army, or an army commander. Coat of arms, Crest, Insignia, Heraldry, it's all the same concept. And it's a poor argument for restricting it to 10 players. 10 players is hardly an "army" either. I don't care to be a part of a large company, my focus in on small tactical squad dynamic. Are you saying a squad doesn't deserve to have a tabard because it's not an "army" ?
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeraldryI would like an explanation for this, truly.
"... from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander" ..."
You can't be an "Army Commander" without an army ...
Heraldry is not restricted to an army, or an army commander. Coat of arms, Crest, Insignia, Heraldry, it's all the same concept. And it's a poor argument for restricting it to 10 players. 10 players is hardly an "army" either. I don't care to be a part of a large company, my focus in on small tactical squad dynamic. Are you saying a squad doesn't deserve to have a tabard because it's not an "army" ?
I looked up squads and apparently they are 9 people in the military. You only have to front one more soldier.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.0 -
Canstaht✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeraldryI would like an explanation for this, truly.
"... from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander" ..."
You can't be an "Army Commander" without an army ...
Heraldry is not restricted to an army, or an army commander. Coat of arms, Crest, Insignia, Heraldry, it's all the same concept. And it's a poor argument for restricting it to 10 players. 10 players is hardly an "army" either. I don't care to be a part of a large company, my focus in on small tactical squad dynamic. Are you saying a squad doesn't deserve to have a tabard because it's not an "army" ?
I looked up squads and apparently they are 9 people in the military. You only have to front one more soldier.
Squads vary in size depending on specific aim and requirement. Also branch and country. A set number is not the aim of my argument though.
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Canstaht✭✭✭So what number of people do you think a guild should have to enable tabards?
I read someone suggesting 4, as that is the "small group" limit.
And if tabards are not available to a guild the size as yours, what other ways would you envision to distinguish yourself as a group?
I would think being able to dye your armour in the same colours as your group members would achieve a similar end result, and that is pretty much available to all players.
4+ members works for me, personally. Though I don't know if there are 2-3 person guilds that might want it too, I myself couldn't care less if a single individual wanted their own tabard, from a RP perspective, or to stand out as a solo PvP'er. It doesn't take anything away from anyone else. It doesn't hurt game play, in any way. So what's the gripe against it? Obviously you'll learn a group of 50+ people wearing the same tabard sooner than you'll recognize a group of 4-6 wearing the same tabard, but all the same why put a limit on it at all. It's unfair.1 -
Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You need to accomplish certain goals in games to unlock certain things. This is nothing new. Your $15 doesn't entitle you to anything.
Personally I think 10 people is low. I think it should be around 50 members for the privilege to be identified by a tabard. maybe at 200 members high ranking members can carry a guild flag.
I'd rather less people have access to things than everyone have access to everything. I want to see something rare and special and hard to achieve every once in a while, even if it's something I don't have. It's fun to me to be in awe of someone else's in-game accomplishments.Edited by Sallington on August 8, 2014 8:23PMDaggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||4 -
Canstaht✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »You need to accomplish certain goals in games to unlock certain things. This is nothing new. Your $15 doesn't entitle you to anything.
Personally I think 10 people is low. I think it should be around 50 members for the privilege to be identified by a tabard. maybe at 200 members high ranking members can carry a guild flag.
I'd rather less people have access to things than everyone have access to everything. I want to see something rare and special and hard to achieve every once in a while, even if it's something I don't have. It's fun to me to be in awe of someone else's in-game accomplishments.
Why do you feel a Tabard should be a rare and special? I'm sincerely asking. I can understand wanting effort and long term distinctions to be a factor for achievements, gear, titles, ranking. I respect that and support it whole heartedly. I personally don't see why Tabards need to fall into this category. It takes no effort, really to make one now. The only restriction is a number, not effort/achievement/level.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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I think you're confused about your own argument then. Because as i read it, you ARE asking for a set number. One that is significantly lower than the current set number.A set number is not the aim of my argument though.
Some of us simply disagree with your request and reasoning ...
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why do you feel a Tabard should be a rare and special? I'm sincerely asking. I can understand wanting effort and long term distinctions to be a factor for achievements, gear, titles, ranking. I respect that and support it whole heartedly. I personally don't see why Tabards need to fall into this category. It takes no effort, really to make one now. The only restriction is a number, not effort/achievement/level.
If you make everything available at such a low objective, then what is the incentive to have a 50/100/300 person guild? I've always liked when guild rewards came in tiers. Larger guilds should have more perks.
If everyone could run around in tabard, everyone would be so unrecognizable and they wouldn't mean anything. It would be nice to recognize a tabard and think, "Oh, that person is in such-and-such guild. Cool."
Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||0 -
Super_Sonico✭✭✭✭I pay the same monthly sub everyone else does. Why should content be access restricted to me, that doesn't otherwise effect game play.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's backwards, wrong-headed thinking right there.
Everyone has the exact same access in the game. Everyone has the ability to be in a guild with 10+ members however many members it takes and get a bank and tabard when they have 10 or more members the required amount of members. No one is restricting content for you.
Edited by Super_Sonico on August 8, 2014 8:46PM1 -
Canstaht✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »Why do you feel a Tabard should be a rare and special? I'm sincerely asking. I can understand wanting effort and long term distinctions to be a factor for achievements, gear, titles, ranking. I respect that and support it whole heartedly. I personally don't see why Tabards need to fall into this category. It takes no effort, really to make one now. The only restriction is a number, not effort/achievement/level.
If you make everything available at such a low objective, then what is the incentive to have a 50/100/300 person guild? I've always liked when guild rewards came in tiers. Larger guilds should have more perks.
If everyone could run around in tabard, everyone would be so unrecognizable and they wouldn't mean anything. It would be nice to recognize a tabard and think, "Oh, that person is in such-and-such guild. Cool."
I agree larger guilds should have more perks, and they do. Bank, Store, so far. I have no problem with them having more perks, or tiered and incremental achievements for guilds. I personally feel a Tabard itself, shouldn't be restricted though. I'm sure more could be done for the overall guild system on the whole, though.
I'm not asking for everything, just a Tabard.
I see more distinction as an added benefit, as opposed to less. If everyone looks the same then it gets a bit dull, no?
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If everyone looks the same then it gets a bit dull, no?
That's EXACTLY why I think tabards should be even more restrictive than they currently are
Agree to disagree haha
Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||2 -
Canstaht✭✭✭Super_Sonico wrote: »I pay the same monthly sub everyone else does. Why should content be access restricted to me, that doesn't otherwise effect game play.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's backwards, wrong-headed thinking right there.
Everyone has the exact same access in the game. Everyone has the ability to be in a guild with 10+ members however many members it takes and get a bank and tabard when they have 10 or more members the required amount of members. No one is restricting content for you.
The tabard is the only focus of my topic, for me. The bank is a separate issue, and I don't want to get sidetracked on that. I know I mentioned it previously, by way of example and it was a mistake to do so as it detracts from my argument.
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Canstaht✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »
Well said! but I think if there is enough variation, that would be alleviated, at least there would be far more combinations than there are currently by way of armor/sets. The dye system itself also helps with this.0 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭There aren't -that- many dyes for tabards. There's no metallic colors or too much variation. Although that is legit, tabards weren't exactly woven in gold if the field was tinctured Or.
The fields could be more complex, a whole lot more charges if they drew from actual heraldry, multiple charges in a field, pose or direction of a charge, etc etc. You could get thousands. This is probably time consuming but atm if every individual could get a different tabard, there'd still be a lot of the same tabards, and I think there will be any way.
I was disappointed by the lack of selection, personally. And not many of the charges were even based in actual heraldry.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.1 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »There aren't -that- many dyes for tabards. There's no metallic colors or too much variation. Although that is legit, tabards weren't exactly woven in gold if the field was tinctured Or.
The fields could be more complex, a whole lot more charges if they drew from actual heraldry, multiple charges in a field, pose or direction of a charge, etc etc. You could get thousands. This is probably time consuming but atm if every individual could get a different tabard, there'd still be a lot of the same tabards, and I think there will be any way.
I was disappointed by the lack of selection, personally. And not many of the charges were even based in actual heraldry.
[snip]
Thank you for the apology. It seems I am naturally abrasive, as other people have taken offense where no offense was intended on my part.
It's not that I am opposed to individual tabards (though perhaps they should be bound to a person and not to a guild under 10 members, but it could easily work either way, I do not know if there are problems for the system if there is an influx of single person guilds or not as I know nothing of the system.)
I would like to see more variety first though, a lot more. I realize that each charge requires the graphics for it to be put in. I think, for one, consulting an herald would have been wise, as they use the wrong terminology in the first place. They could actually just searched google and find all the relevant info.
I hope they will add more charges with each new big patch, but I have no idea if it is a priority for them. I think little things like this can make people very happy while they wait for unpleasant bugs to be ironed out so it is nice fluff to keep updating.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 8, 2023 6:00PMDear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.0 -
Canstaht✭✭✭I just want to say, that I did not mean to come off so defensive towards others and I am genuinely sorry if anyone has taken issue to my statements. My goal is not to come off self entitled or as merely deflecting others to get my way. I have become a bit frustrated with trying to voice my opinion and I just want to be heard. The tabard thing is something I miss from when I played DAoC, it's partly a nostalgia thing and also the distinction of standing out of course even if only a little. I don't want to have to join a large guild and I don't want to just recruit people to recruit people, either.0
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Canstaht✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »There aren't -that- many dyes for tabards. There's no metallic colors or too much variation. Although that is legit, tabards weren't exactly woven in gold if the field was tinctured Or.
The fields could be more complex, a whole lot more charges if they drew from actual heraldry, multiple charges in a field, pose or direction of a charge, etc etc. You could get thousands. This is probably time consuming but atm if every individual could get a different tabard, there'd still be a lot of the same tabards, and I think there will be any way.
I was disappointed by the lack of selection, personally. And not many of the charges were even based in actual heraldry.
[snip]
Thank you for the apology. It seems I am naturally abrasive, as other people have taken offense where no offense was intended on my part.
It's not that I am opposed to individual tabards (though perhaps they should be bound to a person and not to a guild under 10 members, but it could easily work either way, I do not know if there are problems for the system if there is an influx of single person guilds or not as I know nothing of the system.)
I would like to see more variety first though, a lot more. I realize that each charge requires the graphics for it to be put in. I think, for one, consulting an herald would have been wise, as they use the wrong terminology in the first place. They could actually just searched google and find all the relevant info.
I hope they will add more charges with each new big patch, but I have no idea if it is a priority for them. I think little things like this can make people very happy while they wait for unpleasant bugs to be ironed out so it is nice fluff to keep updating.
Well, it's always the little things that count. Expanding it, and other little aspects might help a lot. Someone previously said "Why of all things, this?" well, to many this might be an inconsequential want. But to me, it's a legitimate issue, one that would make me a lot happier in game to be sure. Being able to distinguish your character and feel a sense of pride over it, has something in and of itself to lend towards enjoyment.
Clearly not a main focus for many, or something I expect changed over night. But I'd be happy with a nod or something to say "We'll think about it" if nothing else.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 8, 2023 6:01PM0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If anybody's interested in the actual numbers, there's 6¾ million (6,785,856) unique combinations for guild heraldry.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp1 -
Canstaht✭✭✭If anybody's interested in the actual numbers, there's 6¾ million (6,785,856) unique combinations for guild heraldry.
That sounds to be a fair amount to be sure. Enough combinations, to allow smaller guilds the ability to have them. Though naturally there will be more popular and common trends among heraldry selections. It's nice to know there is a selection of combinations though.
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TomSamuel✭✭vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »Personally I agree with allowing smaller guilds their heraldry. Getting 10 members isn't even enough is it? The tabards are sold in the guild store and you need 50 members for that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Apart from that, we need more incentive for smaller groups in Cyrodiil. Right now it's all about the zerg. We need objectives that smaller groups can handle and have fun with. I applaud the OP for sticking to a smaller guild and not invite random people. Guilds should mean something instead of being a collection of random people who don't even play together.
I have 15 people and made my tabard . 10 people can still have access. The only thing >50 cant do is bid on those traders . I don't care . I don't have a guild store . etc.
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TomSamuel✭✭just so youre informed. 10 man guilds can still make and purchase their own guild tabards . [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 8, 2023 6:04PM0 -
Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭I see a lot for you giving the reason for such restrictions as to limit the number of 1 man guilds.
Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.
A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.
Any type of restriction concerning "Guilds" which locks a paying customer out of the ability to have as well is a horrible idea.
NO OTHER GAME DOES THIS WITH GUILDS.
2nd, Why does Zennimax care if there are a bunch of 1 man guilds? Is their server so *** it can't handle the load? Because if that's the case the game is a lot more *** up then we've been lead to believe.Edited by Malpherian on August 9, 2014 12:05AM3 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.
A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.
That is absurd.
Following through with your "logic", it would mean everyone would leave the wailing prison at VR12 level with all legendary gear, all skills maxed out and 5,000,000 gold.
Because other paying customers can get all that ...
Edited by SirAndy on August 9, 2014 12:16AM2 -
Canstaht✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.
A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.
That is absurd.
Following through with your "logic", it would mean everyone would leave the wailing prison at VR12 level with all legendary gear, all skills maxed out and 5,000,000 gold.
Because other paying customers can get all that ...
This is missing the point SirAndy. A guild tabard cannot be compared to VR12, Legendary gear and skills maxed and a mass quantity of gold. It's not at all the same conversation.
Having a tabard, is a feature to a guild. If a player can establish a guild, they should have the ability to have a tabard for that guild. That, and only that is the discussion topic. The continued mention of free levels/gear/other game play earned achievements is absolutely not the same in any way shape or form.
No one asked for easy content, free gear, levels or anything of that nature. Just a tabard.1 -
Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »Let me remind you that every single player "PAYS" a monthly sub for this game. If it was free to play, I might agree with the restrictions. But it isn't.
A paying customer should have access and the right to do anything anyone else can do. So if a 1 man guild wants a bank, or just a tabard, they are paying for the right to have it.
That is absurd.
Following through with your "logic", it would mean everyone would leave the wailing prison at VR12 level with all legendary gear, all skills maxed out and 5,000,000 gold.
Because other paying customers can get all that ...
That's not even remotely the same.
A Guild gives more storage, and an Aesthetic tabard. And technically a single player can get all the legendary gear he or she wants anyway, so your example is not even remotely valid or even similar.
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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But is that really true?Having a tabard, is a feature to a guild. If a player can establish a guild, they should have the ability to have a tabard for that guild. That, and only that is the discussion topic.
Why should a guild *not* have different options depending on the number of members?
So far, nothing i have read in this thread has me convinced that a guild of 1 is somehow entitled to a tabard.
We already have member count based restrictions. 10 for a bank, 50 for a store.
The tabard is just another carrot in front of the guild leaders to encourage them to grow their guild and invite more members.
Isn't that part of an MMO? Remind me again what that middle M in MMO stands for ...
Edited by SirAndy on August 9, 2014 12:28AM0 -
Canstaht✭✭✭
But is that really true?Having a tabard, is a feature to a guild. If a player can establish a guild, they should have the ability to have a tabard for that guild. That, and only that is the discussion topic.
Why should a guild *not* have different options depending on the number of members?
So far, nothing i have read in this thread has me convinced that a guild of 1 is somehow entitled to a tabard.
We already have member count based restrictions. 10 for a bank, 50 for a store.
The tabard is just another carrot in front of the guild leaders to encourage them to grow their guild and invite more members.
Isn't that part of an MMO? Remind me again what that middle M in MMO stands for ...
Larger guilds already have an incentive and perks that small guilds cannot have, a bank and store. I don't care about either, but the tabard now that is unfair beyond any reasonable doubt and you have not given me a compelling reason why. You keep bringing up the free stuff argument. Which is irrelevant to the topic. So a guild already has different options depending on the number of members. Bigger guilds get their bank space, and their stores. But the tabard has no effect on gameplay mechanics or the economy. So with the bank space, you have an argument why a one man guild can't have it, the store, likewise. However, the tabard there is no similar argument for why a small guild Does not have the right to one.
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Canstaht✭✭✭coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »Under 10 people isn't a guild. It's more like a small raid group.
A guild is literally defined as a group of individuals who share a similar interest and pursuit. That is the exact definition of a guild. It only takes two people to be a guild. So a guild is not quantified as a set number, just a collection of people who share the same interest. Could be two, could be two thousand, anywhere between or in excess of.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Sure there is, i posted that earlier in this thread.However, the tabard there is no similar argument for why a small guild Does not have the right to one.
The very DEFINITION of a tabard is derived from the word "Army Commander".
You can't be an "Army Commander" without an army!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
"... from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander" ..."
Edited by SirAndy on August 9, 2014 12:37AM1
