Every major update reminds me why relying on 3rd party add-ons for basic features...

Cogo · August 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Choose one of the following:

1. Minimal UI. You can only get more information through add-ons.
2. Maximal UI. All UI elements can be turned of via user settings.

ESO's flaw (read: horrible designers, producers and development team) is that they chose 1 instead of 2.

Maximal UI games are those like SWTOR where you still have a LUA based interface but it's not moddable. So the game must provide everything by itself.
But ESO has it moddable so it does not (and should) not provide everything else there'd be no point letting 3rd party authors create mods to begin with.

On the other side, ESO's "choice" was bad in that. The default UI is abysmal and not because "TES games are meant to have a terse UI".
It's bad because the moment you resort having any "out of action" (ESC key or "modal" window) then immersion is already gone and we are looking at a menu / UI exactly as immersion breaking as it's looking at any MMO menu.
So, immersion broken for immersion broken... why not give the basics like a material type selector and similar. That's really something that should be in the basic game. Allow freedom to mod it but give a sensible default.
I would have considered a "visual timers expiration" add on, but did not even think one day I'd have needed to install a mod to manage something as basic as items filtering.

Also, moddable MMOs rely on reaching a critical mass of authors (they are a MMO marketing tool in itself) so that there's a turnover of them creating alternatives. One guy unsubs, you download one of the 3-4 alternatives. But ESO did not reach that critical mass so we have 1, sometimes 2 mod authors so when they unsub we easily lose an irreplaceable piece of software.

Finally, the ESO's flaw is not your points.
It's the changing API.

Like many other very questionable programming (mis)practices, ESO API is another of their weak points.

APIs exist to provide a set of programming interfaces one may rely on for a sustained amount of time.
When existing functionalities become obsolete, the function names and parameters HAVE to stay available for backwards compatibility.
Had ESO API been managed with a minimum of competence, day 1 mods would still work today. They would not take advantage of new features and maybe they could spew incorrect numbers or miss the newest abilities in their logs. But they would not break and show lots of LUA errors, except in rare cases where the 3rd party addon would be made bad and would not cover special cases like detecting and avoiding a division by zero.

To make an example: I have created a low level C++ 16 bit DLL in 1991. Today it runs in 64 bit software, not a single parameter name or type had to be adapted.
Sure the example is extreme and the DLL interface only got 150 or so functions but ESO ever-changing API with no backwards compatibility is way off the other side.

If the UI is so bad.....howcome so many play without addons or chech the RP community. They have add-ons. But not the kind anyone here would use.

You missed a TINY detail in your description. Even C++ code need to have a platform and how you can build on that depends whats built.

In short. Some things in the code cant simply work with an add-on if its to much.
A small, clean UI AS ZENIMAX DESCRIBED. (I dont get these whinings....you bought the game...did you not look what it was?), makes more add-ons possible.

Have you thought about that Zenimax knows about this, and MIGHT have chosen to code their game, another way in a reason we do not know?

Tubben · August 2014

It's funny.. Allways that "i like the game how it is, so everyone must do it also".

It's ok that people like that game without addons. I for myself wont play without some addons like advanced filters, minimap, lootdrop, research assistant.

Addons which should build into the game.

It's an disadvantage to not using this addons, they safe time, alot of it.

It's cool if people like cogo have the time to play every day since beta with 36 days played. I dont have that time. I want to use my time online playing and not managing my inventory or other useless stuff.

Thats work for me and not relaxion.

Thats my opinion, must not match with others. But I pay for this game and so the game need to match my needs. If it doesent anymore, i just leave.

theyancey · August 2014

I like the minimalist concept. It lets me jazz it up with just whatever add ons I want and I don't have to have ones that I do not want. Want your screen to look like a fighter jet's ***? Go for it. Want minimal with just a few tweaks like mine? That is fine too.

sotonin · August 2014

Cogo wrote: »

sotonin wrote: »

I agree. This is the first MMO I have played where you are actually at a disadvantage to play the game without addons. You just make your life harder and there's so many things that I myself would consider "basic" that ZOS left out.

UI is a huge huge huge pain point that they need to address on many fronts.

Please explain?

How is this a disadvantage? I am vet 4. Heavy armor tank. Tanked all the vet Dungeons, done some of the HARD undaunted achievements.

I have found enough skyshards to have skills enough but sure, I missed skyshards since I dont have the computer pointing out where they are. I had to find them on my own....and choose my skills carefully because of it. This might be why I have not needed to respec?

I have not respected ONCE.

I do alright in Cyro. I been in teams where we use tactics to stop the enemy from spawning in the keep etc.

I can solo in Vet areas. I have pretty good understanding how my weapons and skills works.

I have to add. I play pretty much every day. Since 5 day early beta. My "played says 36days. Sure, making a guild takes time, but the rest was PLAYING.
I could spend WEEKS in a zone, exploring whatever......I have fun every time I play the game!

Please tell me sir, what is my disadvantage? Having more fun? Learning how things works without the computer telling me?

Ever try to search on the guild store by name? Oh wait you can't. Good luck finding a specific item in the sea of *** thats out there, and paging through page after page to find it.

THIS IS BASIC FUNCTIONALITY in basically ANY interface, not just games.

I'll stop right there because that alone is enough to *** me off.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

Minimalist UI is exactly what I use my Addons for. You think tabbing to veiw the map every 30 seconds is minimalist? Having to slog through an inventory with no filters to change a weapon minimalist? I'd be willing to bet I see and use less UI with my collection of addons than you folks playing without them see...

Just go get Loot Drop alone, turn auto-loot on in your game play options, and you'll only begin to notice just how much more UI bull *** you have to put up with than I do. That little UI pop up of stuff to loot? Yeah I only see a 5 second ticker until that *** is off the screen and I'm moving on with my life...scratch that, while I'm moving on with my life. Its a substandard UI and the Devs use Add-on functionality to cop out on making a quality customizable UI. Basic stuff! I'm not infringing on a minimalist UI when my compass turns red when I'm in combat...and stays that way to let me know I'm still in combat because there's literally no cue for that built into the core UI.

I use my addons to avoid dealing with menus and map screens and checking my weapons to see if the enchantments are drained. The UI I use is less fussing with bull *** than the core UI. You want immersion? Get addons. You want every effin metric the API can give you? Use addons. You want to make an argument from ignorance that addons despoil the "minimalist" UI? Don't confuse the terms minimalist with incomplete...

williamburr2001b14_ESO · August 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

There you have it:

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

For the MMO crowd, ESO's not MMO-like enough; i.e. they've been conditioned to expect a certain UI look and feature set, and find it hard to take a step back and question their expectations. Tell them that ESO's all about being an immersive, story-driven world where the journey is the destination, and they start growling at you.

On the other hand, the die-hard TES fans, and to some extend the folks that've only known Skyrim, find the rule limitations that a persistent, multi-player online world has to bring with it hard to accept.

So, it boils down to the basic optimist/pessimist lookout at things. Some see ESO as win-win, i.e. it strifes to be the best of both worlds, while others take the opposite stance. None is more right than the other. It's simply a matter of personal preference and acceptance.

What a load of horse puckey. Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Add-ons are used because they alleviate chores. You may enjoy chores, and may even have convinced yourself that repeating tedious tasks over and over because you haven't been provided a decent enough interface to do pointless busy-work for you is somehow fun, but if you do, that's more you having Stockholm Syndrome than other people doing it wrong.

Tandor · August 2014

sotonin wrote: »

Ever try to search on the guild store by name? Oh wait you can't. Good luck finding a specific item in the sea of *** thats out there, and paging through page after page to find it.

THIS IS BASIC FUNCTIONALITY in basically ANY interface, not just games.

I'll stop right there because that alone is enough to *** me off.

I couldn't agree more with you, but then that's more down to a broken trading system than a broken or deficient UI, not least because once you've completed your search of the guild store you have to wander off to another guild store and do it all again. And again.

MorHawk · August 2014

sotonin wrote: »

Ever try to search on the guild store by name? Oh wait you can't. Good luck finding a specific item in the sea of **** that's out there, and paging through page after page to find it.

THIS IS BASIC FUNCTIONALITY in basically ANY interface, not just games.

I'll stop right there because that alone is enough to *** me off.

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Agreed with these points. How is the omission of these features facilitating anyone's immersion or minimalism? I completely agree with those who argue that these should have been part of the vanilla UI rather than having to be modded in, but how anyone can defend the interface as it stands is beyond me.

KhajitFurTrader · August 2014

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Could the inventory system profit from a well thought out overhaul, improving ease-of-use, speed-of-use, more sortable categories etc.? Absolutely no question, mark that down as a resounding "yes!"

In order to achieve this, do I want to rely and be dependent on add-ons, written by unknown third party developers not related to ZOS, with unknown code, and absolutely no guarantees of not breaking in the future, or even continued development at that? Hell no!

So how about, instead of wasting your time attacking people ad hominem, you write down the improvements you want to see, and give them as a nicely formatted /feedback to ZOS? You might even point them to specific functionalities provided by a particular add-on and tell them: "that's what I want to see." This way, the whole community might profit form your endeavor, since we get reliable improvements instead of the crutches kludges that are add-ons. ^_^

sotonin · August 2014

MorHawk wrote: »

sotonin wrote: »

Ever try to search on the guild store by name? Oh wait you can't. Good luck finding a specific item in the sea of **** that's out there, and paging through page after page to find it.

THIS IS BASIC FUNCTIONALITY in basically ANY interface, not just games.

I'll stop right there because that alone is enough to *** me off.

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Agreed with these points. How is the omission of these features facilitating anyone's immersion or minimalism? I completely agree with those who argue that these should have been part of the vanilla UI rather than having to be modded in, but how anyone can defend the interface as it stands is beyond me.

Yep. agree 100% yet fan boys STILL flood the forums with the garbage excuses. There are so many improvements that could be done to the game (interface or otherwise) that would improve the user experience. I firmly believe they don't have a UX designer working for them or a very very terrible one.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · August 2014

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Oh lord. It's a minute or two to disable those that broke, a few more to check esoui for updates, and we are back. A pile of em' work just fine out of date and the few that fail are no big deal.

A rage quit over addons is a new one for me. I do love em' though, rage quits, that is.

williamburr2001b14_ESO · August 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Could the inventory system profit from a well thought out overhaul, improving ease-of-use, speed-of-use, more sortable categories etc.? Absolutely no question, mark that down as a resounding "yes!"

In order to achieve this, do I want to rely and be dependent on add-ons, written by unknown third party developers not related to ZOS, with unknown code, and absolutely no guarantees of not breaking in the future, or even continued development at that? Hell no!

So how about, instead of wasting your time attacking people ad hominem, you write down the improvements you want to see, and give them as a nicely formatted /feedback to ZOS? You might even point them to specific functionalities provided by a particular add-on and tell them: "that's what I want to see." This way, the whole community might profit form your endeavor, since we get reliable improvements instead of the crutches kludges that are add-ons. ^_^

You have an incredibly weighted view of this for some reason, and it's causing you to fall into "false dichotomy." People aren't reliant on add-ons, they utilize them to put some spackle into the cracks in this chimeric, limited user interface. This is not an all-or-nothing situation, in which you either have to completely accept the UI as given and defend it to your dying breath (which is the approach you have mysteriously decided to endorse) or becoming some kind of slave to...what...exactly? Tiny user-created programs that just make life better and gameplay more fun?

What is your problem with those? Do you seriously think that add-on developers, and users, have not berated the devs at length, begged, argued, pleaded, cajoled, them to add more functionality and ease-of-use into the stock UI? They absolutely have. As it applies to the UI, there hasn't been any movement on the dev side. That's the entire reason people keep making add-ons. The makers are players. They look at really basic stuff, stupid chores they have to do over and over, and think to themselves "You know, I could write a simple little program that would do this for me."

And they do. Then they share it with others, because they're nice like that.

So it'd be great, just peachy keen neato fantastic #1, if you would stop insulting add-ons, their creators, and their users, by saying that they're slaves to these programs. People use them because they're good. Your attitude is sanctimonious, condescending, and completely misguided. You want to talk ad-hominem? You started with it, and you've kept it running, by lobbing insults. You want ad-hominem to stop, then stop doing it.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

Cogo wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

I do however expect basic features in an MMO to be in the actual game.

But... unlike any MMO I've ever played, the designers have inexplicably left the responsibility for them to 3rd party scripters. (While requiring us players to find them, install them, set them up and update them.) Seriously, no game has it all--but I've never seen anything like what this one lacks in terms of standard MMO tools.

Here's a few off the top of my head:

Want to see what you just looted without opening you're bag or turning OFF auto-loot? You need an addon.

Want to hear a chime when someone sends you a tell, rather than it get lost in the text of your chat window so you never even see it? You need an addon.

Want to have the ability to do a basic search in the Guild Store? You need an addon.

Want to get a basic combat log in a chat window so you can see damage/heals/crits? You need an addon.

Want to silence the annoying, repetitious NPC banker's dialog that triggers every freaking time you jump out/in to the bank interface to go between Bank, Guild Bank, Guild Store? You need an addon.

This isn't about cheats, or having things handed to us. It's not even about filling in features that were consciously left out--like a minimap, which I can understand as conscious design decisions. It's about very basic stuff that there's just no excuse not to have in game in a modern MMO.

Basic? You know what an MMORPG is right? There are no "basic" features in any MMORPG other then its an online, nonestop multiuser roleplaying game.

What the game is, has different types. Just like other games. "basic" I think is what you are used too. ESO is a new type of MMO and sets its own "basics"

All your suggestion above I really enjoy being without. Zenimax allows addons. Be happy with that. Even in WoW you need addons to raid.

By your suggestions, I wonder if you read what ESO is. Its about immersion, story, almost to be in it. I dont want a minimap that ruins that. They even said that the UI will be clean and let addons work since thats always been the TES way.

What they can do is extend on their own "basic" systems. And they are.
Thing they can do is better logs, saving text emails, store searches, yes

Modern MMO? Without innovation and go with your own Vision, we would still be playing Muds....or UO.

I have to note that quite a lot want combat log of damage. Why? For once, you get to see for yourself what works and not......instead of calculating numbers.

And for autoloot. I never understood that. But its a feature they give you.

What?

I Didn't say I wanted a mini-map in the core game. Far from it in fact. Read better.

And... what do any of the things I mentioned have to do with "immersion"???

The things I listed don't affect the graphical UI at all. And sure, auto-loot is there, yes. But to SEE what you loot isn't without opening your bags every time you click to loot something.

Sorry, that kind of oversight is not "minimalist" or "immersive". That's just half-baked MMO design.

Obscure · August 2014

MercyKilling wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

...sucks.

Two of 'em crash right away. Now get to log out, then go spend 20 minutes updating them all. Assuming they have updates yet.

Joy.

This kind of crap is what I always think of when some doofus chimes in with: "Duh, what are you complaining about--there's an add-on for that" when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

Then learn to play without them. I don't have a single one installed, and I do just fine, thankew.

Gillysan wrote: »

People who aren't using addons in this game have no idea what they are missing.

Sure I do. This kind of heartache. Whenever a game update/patch comes down the pipe, having to redownload and install this stuff all over again.

No, I took the time to learn how to play without all these "basic features" most people are griping about.

It most certainly is not Zenimax's fault some players got so used to having their hands held while playing or rely too much on "playing the add ons" than playing the game.

Giant clunky "made for console" designed quick slot UI system. Not minimalist. My add-on to make it a bar at the bottom of my screen that I can show or hide with a key stroke and also scroll through it with a key stroke is minimalist.

Edges of the screen glow red when in combat but only when you invade the UI with a menu. Not minimalist. My add-on that makes the border of my compass turn red when in combat is minimalist.

Looting a container pulls up a UI menu of the contents, can be turned off by the core UI, but then doesn't indicate anything you looted forcing you to open the inventory menu to look. Not minimalist. My add-on that displays what I just picked up for 5 seconds is minimalist.

Switching out a couple skills on my skill bar depending on what I'm doing to a few known configurations I always use requires digging through the skill menu and slotting them one by one. Not minimalist. My add-on that allows me to save each of those configurations and swap to them with a single click is minimalist.

And that's just four examples of addons that improve my minimalist experience of the UI, expanding the "quality of life" far beyond ZOS's sub standard UI. What people like you fail to realize is people like me aren't playing the addons, were filling in annoying, invasive, and simply incomplete UI functionality. I don't want giant numbers screaming at my face and every second I spend staring at the UI instead of playing the game I'm not having fun. My addons reflect that, and in my opinion should not be addons at all. They should be part of the core UI that anyone could toggle on or off at their leisure. It's lazy design, and quite simply a load of bull *** ZOS didn't design them into the game.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

MercyKilling wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Want to see what you just looted without opening you're bag or turning OFF auto-loot? You need an addon.

You're going to have to turn off auto loot once the justice system hits or rack up a large bounty for just going to the bank. Not to mention just how HARD is it to turn off auto loot or open you bag? Jebus, as if a couple more mouse clicks is waaaaay too much effort for some people.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Want to hear a chime when someone sends you a tell, rather than it get lost in the text of your chat window so you never even see it? You need an addon.

No you don't. Put tells in their own tab, change their color...and when I get one? The TELLS tab lights up. There's an option for this if you just bother to look for it.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Want to have the ability to do a basic search in the Guild Store? You need an addon.

I will agree that search options are highly basic and somewhat difficult, but I've still been able to find what I'm looking for...it just takes *SHOCK AND HORROR* a bit more time and effort to find them.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Want to get a basic combat log in a chat window so you can see damage/heals/crits? You need an addon.

Perhaps the only truth here.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Want to silence the annoying, repetitious NPC banker's dialog that triggers every freaking time you jump out/in to the bank interface to go between Bank, Guild Bank, Guild Store? You need an addon.

Or you could just go into the options and mute dialogue. Or mute the game entirely, like I do and play with my own music. No add on necessary.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This isn't about cheats, or having things handed to us. It's not even about filling in features that were consciously left out--like a minimap, which I can understand as conscious design decisions. It's about very basic stuff that there's just no excuse not to have in game in a modern MMO.

Which is exactly why it should be left out. To break the dependency on these things.
However, most everything you listed as "basic stuff" -IS- in the game, you just have to find the workaround or go looking for it...so yes. It really IS about wanting stuff just handed to you rather than learn how THIS game does things.
Which is perfectly fine, just don't ruin it for those of us that don't mind putting forth a bit of effort and time, please.

Wow.

You seem amazingly willing to apologize for bad design, and seem to have an unhealthy willingness to compensate for said bad design with your own efforts and time instead of pointing it out for the bad design that it is. (Have you ever been to Stockholm?)

OK, let's take your responses one by one--

You're going to have to turn off auto loot once the justice system hits or rack up a large bounty for just going to the bank. Not to mention just how HARD is it to turn off auto loot or open you bag? Jebus, as if a couple more mouse clicks is waaaaay too much effort for some people.

Since you, nor I, have no idea how the justice system will be implemented in regards to auto-loot, I will just ignore that part.

For the 2nd part--so, a couple of mouse clicks you say?? What--you only loot once per session? You must not play much.

For me--it's HUNDREDS--heck, I'd say some nights even THOUSANDS-- of extra, immersion-shattering, annoying, PITA mouse clicks to see what each loot-click got me?

That, or turning off auto-loot and being forced to deal with a loot window in your face EVERY. SINGLE. TIME you click a bag or a body or a box or a crate....?

As opposed to the developers simply LISTING what you looted in a text channel???? Like every other game does????

Again--a basic, common, TRIVIAL TO IMPLEMENT, no-reason-not-to-have feature-other-than-half-baked-design.

Period. No excuses.

This should not require an addon

No you don't. Put tells in their own tab, change their color...and when I get one? The TELLS tab lights up. There's an option for this if you just bother to look for it.

"Just bother to look for it?" Nice. Where did you get that I didn't know about that. I'm talking about a SOUND. Watching for a temporary color change in a separate tab you set up, then having to click on it to see if you care, is ridiculous functionality.

I DID have it set that way and often missed tells when people needed help, or wanted to ask me something--and I also often stop and click on it (then click back) only to see some spammer. I've never played an MMO that didn't give you an AUDIBLE option for tells coming in.

Until this one.

Tell me how NOT having it is anyway "innovative" or "immersive".

It's not. It's just a lack of a basic, easy to implement feature for no good reason.

A. Tell. Sound. Notification. Should. Not. Require. An. Addon.

I will agree that search options are highly basic and somewhat difficult, but I've still been able to find what I'm looking for...it just takes *SHOCK AND HORROR* a bit more time and effort to find them.

Wait.

So that's your argument? "Yeah--it's not good, but by putting in completely unnecessary effort on my part I can get around the bad design???? "

SHOCK AND HORROR is right!

I'm SHOCKED at your willingness to be an apologist for this HORROR show of an MMO interface.

Again. Basic bank searching Should Not Require An Addon.

Or you could just go into the options and mute dialogue. Or mute the game entirely, like I do and play with my own music. No add on necessary.

OK, this is my absolute favorite of your responses. In order to get around the problem, your workaround is to TURN OFF ALL DIALOG????? OR GAME SOUND ALL TOGETHER????

Did you really just suggest that???

OK, all together now:
Stopping a lengthy repeated dialog between Bank, Guild Bank, and Guild Store windows--windows users typically go in and out of over and over and over within several minutes, several times a day--

SHOULD NOT REQUIRE AN ADDON!
(NOR TURNING OFF YOUR SOUND!!!!!

It amazes me...just amazes me... the lengths people will go to to forgive and explain away the obvious shortcomings of this game's interface.

Rescorla_ESO · August 2014

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Give me a break. Within a day of the patch Minion (from ESOUI.com) had 20+ updates to all the popular addons, to include all of Wykkyd's suite. It took me less than a minute to update all of them.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Give me a break. Within a day of the patch Minion (from ESOUI.com) had 20+ updates to all the popular addons, to include all of Wykkyd's suite. It took me less than a minute to update all of them.

Updating didn't take as long, for me, as dealing with the fact that 2 went to default settings, and one, even after the update, is showing an error every time I go to my guild bank.

Rescorla_ESO · August 2014

jrgray93 wrote: »

There is no reason us people who want these UI features shouldn't be able to have them. Those who don't can just disable them. That's the beauty of an optional UI element. ESO is missing some very basic UI features that us MMO veterans need to fully enjoy the game how we want to.

I need numerical feedback on my damage and healing statistics. I don't want some vague health bar that provides me with no clue as to what is going on. But hey, if that's the experience you want, I see no reason why you can't just disable those numbers that I rely upon.

Relying on addons has been a major pain. I am very grateful for the people developing them, however.

I'm an avid user of addons, both in MMOs and Skyrim/Oblivion so I fully agree with everything you said.

I was in the closed beta and the API was significantly more robust then compared to now. There was a very vocal segment of the PTS community who were adamant in support of the minimalist UI and very anti-addon. ZOS caved in to their complaints and a couple of weeks before release gutted a significant amount of API functionality.

One major benefit of addons that the anti-addon crowd fails to understand is that they help improve the quality of the game by identifying bugs, broken abilities, etc. The addons have access to actual game data so if your Fireball is supposed to be doing 200 points of damage and the combat log is showing it only doing 100 points of damage, you know something is not right. If you use a minimalist UI and never know what the actual results of your abilities are, you are blissfully ignorant of the fact you are getting negatively affected by a bug.

BTW I agree with the OP as well. The default UI should provide more useful information but apparently that violates ZOS core design philosophy.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · August 2014

If you use addons then you have to update them. If don't want to have to update them, then don't use addons. If you use a large number of addons, hard luck.

Gillysan · August 2014

Growing pains, this game is still new. Addons customize the experience more or less how you want it. If you don't want the addons that's just as fine as me who uses 30 addons.

ZOS needs to find a balance between what they have and what people want. In general because there are going to be a lot of different wants here. More importantly I think they need to interface with the addon community better.

I stand by my gif. I have no idea why anyone would want to suffer with the vanilla UI. They must be honoring their Medieval ancestors who wore hair shirts and such.

Vahrokh · August 2014

Cogo wrote: »

If the UI is so bad.....howcome so many play without addons or chech the RP community. They have add-ons. But not the kind anyone here would use.

Unlike you and other "puritsts" I don't flame anyone for using or not using add ons, I was just talking about how bad is to create an API that does not preserve backwards compatibility.

AND

Since you do like to criticise instead, I'll tell you this.

Some in this thread mentioned "EvE Online veterans".

Well I am playing EvE since 8 years. EvE teaches to be ruthless and exploit any tiny advantage over the next guy. And to use a lot of spreadsheets.

I have a cooldowns add on which I use with great profit in PvP and PvE.
I have some guild store related add ons that track price and let me setup profitable and competitive trades.
I have created a spreadsheet that tracks items components prices and crosses them so that I know which crafted items yield the biggest profit and even which ones yield the overall highest profits per volume produced.

I get competitive advantages that let me sell Aether gear for 60-80k a pop, create yellow items and make big profits on the markets.

Said that, if people prefer NOT to have those advantages, unlike you, I won't stand up as Holy Judge. Let them have their fun. And me have mine.

Cogo wrote: »

You missed a TINY detail in your description. Even C++ code need to have a platform and how you can build on that depends whats built.

This has nothing to do with an API. My programs just call a certain set of functions with typedefs and #defines and classes that are invariant across the years. Once I switch say from 16 to 32 and then to 64 bit, all I need to do is to recompile and voilà everything keeps working.

Cogo wrote: »

In short. Some things in the code cant simply work with an add-on if its to much.
A small, clean UI AS ZENIMAX DESCRIBED. (I dont get these whinings....you bought the game...did you not look what it was?), makes more add-ons possible.

In fact I played closed beta, did not like ESO's UI and expecially ESO's controls so I did NOT buy it.

Then my bro decided to gift the box to me so I ended up playing ESO. It's storyline made up for the non-standard and fairly poor controls (expecially poor for pro-active high end PvP) so I stuck with it.

Rescorla_ESO · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Give me a break. Within a day of the patch Minion (from ESOUI.com) had 20+ updates to all the popular addons, to include all of Wykkyd's suite. It took me less than a minute to update all of them.

Updating didn't take as long, for me, as dealing with the fact that 2 went to default settings, and one, even after the update, is showing an error every time I go to my guild bank.

You are correct. Some of the addon updates caused the addon to revert back to their default setting. Like you, it took me longer to reconfigure the addon than it took to update it.

The person who I responded to was just resorting to silly hyperbole and exaggeration. If someone would really unsubscribe to an MMO because a patch broke their addons AND it only takes less than a minute to correct the situation, then good riddance.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Give me a break. Within a day of the patch Minion (from ESOUI.com) had 20+ updates to all the popular addons, to include all of Wykkyd's suite. It took me less than a minute to update all of them.

Updating didn't take as long, for me, as dealing with the fact that 2 went to default settings, and one, even after the update, is showing an error every time I go to my guild bank.

You are correct. Some of the addon updates caused the addon to revert back to their default setting. Like you, it took me longer to reconfigure the addon than it took to update it.

The person who I responded to was just resorting to silly hyperbole and exaggeration. If someone would really unsubscribe to an MMO because a patch broke their addons AND it only takes less than a minute to correct the situation, then good riddance.

In that, we are in agreement.

Personally, I wouldn't even use add-ons at all---in fact, like a lot of people who have posted, I hate the ones that feel like cheating or are there just to take shortcuts.

What's galling is I feel I need to use them just to "fill in" what I consider very basic features to provide trivial, non-immersion-breaking, non-cheating functionality that has no reason NOT to be in the game. Bank search. Dumping your loot info into chat. Combat logging.

Would never quit though, just because of addon issues.

Cogo · August 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

Snip, lots of text that's dreamed up

In fact I played closed beta, did not like ESO's UI and expecially ESO's controls so I did NOT buy it.

Then my bro decided to gift the box to me so I ended up playing ESO. It's storyline made up for the non-standard and fairly poor controls (expecially poor for pro-active high end PvP) so I stuck with it.

So....you play a game you didnt want to play....because you got it for free? And you are now "stuck" with it?

Does ESO have some mind control power over you?

Regarding Eve, you can only be good if you use add-on?
I feel sorry for you since that game actually is hard. If your add-on didn't work.....cant you play?

I had NO problem killing and looting in Eve. Can check my name there if you like. No add-ons are needed to stop a pray to escape, attack, and kill. Sometimes I killed the pilot as well.

The only thing in your whole post you was right on, is that Eve is Ruthless. It supposed to be.

Just like ESO supposed to be.....ESO.

Obscure · August 2014

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

I was in the closed beta and the API was significantly more robust then compared to now. There was a very vocal segment of the PTS community who were adamant in support of the minimalist UI and very anti-addon. ZOS caved in to their complaints and a couple of weeks before release gutted a significant amount of API functionality.

ZOS did more than cave to add-on haters in the PTS, they went off the deep end. Not even being able to track your own buffs or removing the ability to see the debuffs on the target was just plain excessive. Sure, being able to see enemy stamina and magicka was a problem, giving the add-on user a huge advantage in information over a non user, but buff tracking? Hell I wouldn't use it, visual cues are enough for me, but what the ***?! At one point they even shut off damage tracking. ZOS knee jerked and just went DEFCON *** on the API, and continue to cut it down with the removal of things like "distance to target". It was nice to have my reticle change color when a target was in bow attack range, not a huge deal, but why the hell was that removed? It was cool, and without it the UI just feels less cool.

ZOS lacks the ability to make a solid customizable UI so they lean on addons. OK, that sucks, *** you ZOS for being lazy, but its not the end of the world. ZOS then continues to screw with the API which makes some addons completely useless (Range Finder for instance since I brought it up) thereby discouraging the add-on developers from making addons for a game that might just render all their hard work unusable. In the end we have terrible development decisions in an incomplete core UI, and a self defeating API restrictions that they change on a whim without even giving the add-on creators a heads up; one day hundreds if not thousands of players are using your add-on and the next it's useless. No reason, no warning, just cut the *** off without a word.

There's quite a few words I could use to describe that, but it's just stupid... literally in the truest sense of the definition: STUPID.

Vahrokh · August 2014

Cogo wrote: »

So....you play a game you didnt want to play....because you got it for free? And you are now "stuck" with it?

Does ESO have some mind control power over you?

No, I just found out that the terrible and broken content I did not enjoy in closed beta had been improved enough to make me "condone" the controls.

As for the "got it for free", I have about a dozen of MMOs subscriptions, 1 more or less makes no difference. The difference came from having got it as a gift that my bro wanted to see. So I had to reinstall it and show him around and at that point I understood many irksome points had been fixed. The controls still suck imo but ATM I am in PvE mode so I don't care. Scripted content can be completed even with one hand.

Cogo wrote: »

Regarding Eve, you can only be good if you use add-on?
I feel sorry for you since that game actually is hard. If your add-on didn't work.....cant you play?

I had NO problem killing and looting in Eve. Can check my name there if you like. No add-ons are needed to stop a pray to escape, attack, and kill. Sometimes I killed the pilot as well.

The only thing in your whole post you was right on, is that Eve is Ruthless. It supposed to be.

Just like ESO supposed to be.....ESO.

EvE has no add ons at all.

Also, feel free to check my name as well. I have about half a trillion on my name despite I log in once a week for 10 minutes and I have been showcased at Fanfest 2011 and I act as third party service along with Chribba and Grendell.

twev · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

I was in the closed beta and the API was significantly more robust then compared to now. There was a very vocal segment of the PTS community who were adamant in support of the minimalist UI and very anti-addon. ZOS caved in to their complaints and a couple of weeks before release gutted a significant amount of API functionality.

ZOS did more than cave to add-on haters in the PTS, they went off the deep end. Not even being able to track your own buffs or removing the ability to see the debuffs on the target was just plain excessive. Sure, being able to see enemy stamina and magicka was a problem, giving the add-on user a huge advantage in information over a non user, but buff tracking? Hell I wouldn't use it, visual cues are enough for me, but what the ***?! At one point they even shut off damage tracking. ZOS knee jerked and just went DEFCON *** on the API, and continue to cut it down with the removal of things like "distance to target". It was nice to have my reticle change color when a target was in bow attack range, not a huge deal, but why the hell was that removed? It was cool, and without it the UI just feels less cool.

ZOS lacks the ability to make a solid customizable UI so they lean on addons. OK, that sucks, *** you ZOS for being lazy, but its not the end of the world. ZOS then continues to screw with the API which makes some addons completely useless (Range Finder for instance since I brought it up) thereby discouraging the add-on developers from making addons for a game that might just render all their hard work unusable. In the end we have terrible development decisions in an incomplete core UI, and a self defeating API restrictions that they change on a whim without even giving the add-on creators a heads up; one day hundreds if not thousands of players are using your add-on and the next it's useless. No reason, no warning, just cut the *** off without a word.

There's quite a few words I could use to describe that, but it's just stupid... literally in the truest sense of the definition: STUPID.

Careful, please.
Fanbois are hyperventilating as we speak, grabbing for paper bags to breathe into.....

Like you, I don't want add-ons to read other players secret info.
I want add-ons to read my info.
Range finding reticule was cool to let me know when I could sneak between Spriggens or tigers, and a cliff, though.

Respects to you.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO · August 2014

"CapuchinSeven wrote: »

OH please, there is very little to ESO that breaks the mold. It's a great game and if they could just get it fixed and keep it fixed (to the extent that it doesn't feel like they are breaking it every patch) it will be even better, but if you think having a crap UI with zero way to just simply search for the item you're looking to buy is "breaking the mold" then you must have had a very strange mold.

There certainly are ways to search for what you're looking to buy, or did you not notice the selections on the left?

And yes, this is "breaking the mold" of a trade system that instantly and miraculously gives you access to merchandise all over the world, and then e-mails it to you conveniently! Even modern technology can't duplicate this amazing feat!

Searching for items to buy should be hard. You're in a medieval setting. Really, you should have to hawk your wares manually in zone chat, and nothing else.

KariTR · August 2014

Vuron wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

I vote that if an addon shows it's useful and popular by the community, that ESO give the authors a free year subscription.

How about if an addon shows it's useful and popular by the community then it is added into the core functionality of the game?

Because some of us like the minimalist core as it is and you already have the option to add to it via addons.

At the moment there are no losers here. Stop being so selfish by trying to remove choice from players because occasionally your 'must have' addons stop working for you.

Oh my gosh and @Cyberdown, you think a Skyshard map should be a basic addition? How horribly out of sync you are with the design of this game. No [bleep] way should something like that ever be added by default.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

...an argument from ignorance stating its not one is all the more certain to be one...

"Argument from Ignorance" means an argument where the lack of evidence to the contrary of a proposition is used as evidence in its favor. It is a type of informal logical fallacy, and it bears no resemblance to.. whatever it is you are trying to use it to mean here.

You don't use addons, you don't know what using them is like, and you make an argument against them lacking information, experience, or expertise. I.E. you make an argument from ignorance. Please enlighten me in how this is not the case.

I have used addons in several games in the past, and found them totally worthless at best and counterproductive at worst.

Even if I hadn't, that wouldn't be "argument from ignorance" because I would not be using a lack of evidence as an argument for the counter to a proposition.

Like I said. Try just Loot Drop. It doesn't loot anything for you, it just tells you what you looted since if you choose the built in UI option to auto loot it gives you no indication of what you just picked up. Are you so biased you can't even consider the notion that the ESO UI is substandard and thus you can't bring yourself to use any even for the sake of making an informed argument? Because if so it precludes your perspective from making any valid objective argument.

Wrong. That's not how valid, objective arguments work. You shouldn't use terms like "valid, objective argument" when you don't understand the basics of constructing a logical argument.

Furthermore, not agreeing with your position that ESO is "substandard" does not somehow establish bias on my part. You need to first establish that A) there is a standard (impossible, since there is no standard except the subjective beliefs of individual players) and that ESO fails to meet it (equally impossible, since no such standard exists).

By claiming that I'm "biased" because I haven't used any add-ons and therefore my argument is precluded from being valid, all you have done is engage in Begging the Question. (That's another logical error you should familiarize yourself with before you can tell people they are "precluded from making valid, objective arguments") This is like claiming that someone who has never tried alcohol has no "valid, objective" reasons for not wanting to do so. They can readily observe the effects on others, and form their conclusions based on that.

I don't need to try Loot Drop to know that I don't want any of that. I understand it doesn't loot for me; the setting in the base UI clearly does that. I don't want that setting on, so there's no reason for me to ever use Loot Drop, and by "controlling what I loot" I meant being involved in the process at all. Even if I did want that setting on, I don't want the computer telling me what I looted; I want it to shut up and not help me. I can tell just from your description of it that it would be an annoyance. My previous experience with add-ons in WoW informed me that they were either annoying, destructive to the community, or both (GearScore being the worst example).

The problem you are having is that you are trying to come up with reasons to dismiss the other position out of hand, rather than understand it. You are doing precisely what you are accusing me of doing.