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Kicked from pug trial group for my playstyle...
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why is are Stamina abilities so borken?
(just asking)
#ElderSorcsOnline
@ZOS PLEASE FIX STAM BUILDS!!!
^^THIS should be the^^
#1PRIORITYNOW!
It's because you use the same resource pool to Dps and do dodging and blocking. Magic builds use the magic pool for damage and the stamina pool to block and dodge.
There are a few more synergies that work a bit better for magic too, but that's the main problem.
Give players an option to use magic for dodging and blocking and it's mostly fixed. Just In The options screen use magic to dodge/block yes/no toggle. The rest is easy to fix with some number tweaks.
I'm really getting tired of hearing this.
First of all, as a stamina build nightblade wood elf with all passives relevant to stamina pool and regeneration and in a set of hundings (stamina regeneration) I can dodge and block all day. With siphoning strikes and the right weaving I can dps all day.
Second, dodging and blocking has nothing to do with light armor magicka users just straight up putting up higher numbers than their medium stamina counterparts. So while we are both dodging and blocking all day and DPSing all day, they are putting up higher numbers because their dmg is better plain and simple. When we all do the same shiz, their shiz is just better. HERE is our starting point....
Forget about dodging and blocking. It's a distraction.
What this boils down to is light armor is OP. Just go look at the numbers.
Light Armor is allowed to mitigate dmg enough to be viable for tanks and puts up better dps numbers for dps than any other armor type. And, still, we all collectively scratch our heads as to why only only one basic build works in hard content like a bunch of idiots.
The answer is right in front of everyone but no one wants to acknowledge the big fat pink elephant in the room....
Light Armor needs a whack or three with the nerf bat.
THERE. I said it.
Light Armor should be able to take A hit from melee. But that's all. Maybe. Let it mitigate spell dmg but a good styled melee hit and it's lights out for Irene. And you shouldn't be able to use the active ability from an armor line if you aren't wearing 5 pieces or more of that type of armor. In NORMAL and intelligently designed games, robed casters are glass cannons. Make it so here. Duh.
Absolute stupidity has been allowed to reign with this for so long nobody can see the illogic of it all and how freaking SIMPLE it is to, at least, start to fix it.
Sorry to be the one to say it but it's true. I swear, somebody's favorite niece at zenimax likes casters or something. All we all ever do is quibble over every freaking thing under the sun BESIDES the fact that light armor builds might, just MIGHT, be OP.
It's ridiculous.
Staves are probably OP too, but one thing at a time.
Blocking and dodging may just be a distraction to you, I'm not sure your healers would agree with your logic there. But to many of us, it's a legitimate concern and it's the only part of the problem that is not just numbers.
I agree the light can give too much mitigation, but that us just numbers. Heavy does not give enough mitigation, that should sort cap at 50% or so, but again that's just numbers.
It should be
Light 10%
Medium 25%
Heavy 50%
Spells max 10% extra.
That side if things is just numbers.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Nah, I'm still playing the game. And I'll feedback on the forums what I care to when I care to. If that's a problem for you that's your problem.
I plan to be here when your light armor gets nerfed.
2 -
Valn✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Sometimes you have to just be aware and intelligent. An informed ESO player knows that using stamina is not optimal for DPS, nor is heavy armor. If you don't like it then complain, quit, don't do trails, or whatever, but don't try to force someone to carry you because you are protesting the terrible state of stamina builds by running one. If you are going to try to do trials, do some research and come up with an at least half way viable build for it.
That's not my problem. I want to play the way I want, unfortunately with trials i'm forced to play a certain way with certain equipment and if i dont i get removed from the PUG group.
Its zenimax's fault that magicka staff users are the only viable way to do trials2 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭rudimentxb14_ESO wrote: »This completely defeats the whole premise of the game that you can build any character you want ..............................and be effective. (*at EVERYTHING?????) This game is 3 months in and in shambles. Sad
0-o
1 -
Rolling a Templar Heavy armor Sword and shield guy was a big mistake, but I'll keep playing because I simple love this game. Plus I have too much time invested in my guy to just quit.
One does occasionally ask the question though, how difficult can it really be to balance and tweak an MMO? Light armor is so OP while Heavy armor is laughably bad still after 3 months after release that I wonder if there are too many amateurs or simply people with low intelligence involved in developing Elder Scrolls Online?
I hope future patches will make heavy armor and sword builds shine some day.2 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Why is are Stamina abilities so borken?
(just asking)
#ElderSorcsOnline
@ZOS PLEASE FIX STAM BUILDS!!!
^^THIS should be the^^
#1PRIORITYNOW!
It's because you use the same resource pool to Dps and do dodging and blocking. Magic builds use the magic pool for damage and the stamina pool to block and dodge.
There are a few more synergies that work a bit better for magic too, but that's the main problem.
Give players an option to use magic for dodging and blocking and it's mostly fixed. Just In The options screen use magic to dodge/block yes/no toggle. The rest is easy to fix with some number tweaks.
I'm really getting tired of hearing this.
First of all, as a stamina build nightblade wood elf with all passives relevant to stamina pool and regeneration and in a set of hundings (stamina regeneration) I can dodge and block all day. With siphoning strikes and the right weaving I can dps all day.
Second, dodging and blocking has nothing to do with light armor magicka users just straight up putting up higher numbers than their medium stamina counterparts. So while we are both dodging and blocking all day and DPSing all day, they are putting up higher numbers because their dmg is better plain and simple. When we all do the same shiz, their shiz is just better. HERE is our starting point....
Forget about dodging and blocking. It's a distraction.
What this boils down to is light armor is OP. Just go look at the numbers.
Light Armor is allowed to mitigate dmg enough to be viable for tanks and puts up better dps numbers for dps than any other armor type. And, still, we all collectively scratch our heads as to why only only one basic build works in hard content like a bunch of idiots.
The answer is right in front of everyone but no one wants to acknowledge the big fat pink elephant in the room....
Light Armor needs a whack or three with the nerf bat.
THERE. I said it.
Light Armor should be able to take A hit from melee. But that's all. Maybe. Let it mitigate spell dmg but a good styled melee hit and it's lights out for Irene. And you shouldn't be able to use the active ability from an armor line if you aren't wearing 5 pieces or more of that type of armor. In NORMAL and intelligently designed games, robed casters are glass cannons. Make it so here. Duh.
Absolute stupidity has been allowed to reign with this for so long nobody can see the illogic of it all and how freaking SIMPLE it is to, at least, start to fix it.
Sorry to be the one to say it but it's true. I swear, somebody's favorite niece at zenimax likes casters or something. All we all ever do is quibble over every freaking thing under the sun BESIDES the fact that light armor builds might, just MIGHT, be OP.
It's ridiculous.
Staves are probably OP too, but one thing at a time.
Blocking and dodging may just be a distraction to you, I'm not sure your healers would agree with your logic there. But to many of us, it's a legitimate concern and it's the only part of the problem that is not just numbers.
I agree the light can give too much mitigation, but that us just numbers. Heavy does not give enough mitigation, that should sort cap at 50% or so, but again that's just numbers.
It should be
Light 10%
Medium 25%
Heavy 50%
Spells max 10% extra.
That side if things is just numbers.
My point was not that blocking and dodging were a distraction, but that their use of stamina is a distraction in discussions about balance in this game.
It only affects stamina pool. The real problem lies in magicka staff light builds just straight up being OP. Yes it's a factor, but people go off on that and take their eye off the ball of the real issue.
Anyway, I actually did decide to take the turd's advice and I cancelled my billing. I dig this game but it's just not in a state worth paying for. The game is wildly out of balance and I have zero confidence that these people zenimax have any clue as to what they are doing. Maybe at some point the game will be playable. I do plan to check out the console release so maybe then.
Still have a couple weeks of active time so I'll sleep on it a bit, of course, but despite enjoying parts of the game this has got to be the worst MMO experience I've had in 15 years of this genre and there are just too many other better things to do than waste time and money while the Junior Achievement dev team gets their act together.
Edited by Fleymark on July 9, 2014 11:01AM1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭EinionYrthb16_ESO wrote: »sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
On the other hand having groups fail a trial time and time again with no idea why is probably not the best consequence of a "clean game design".
Just sayin'
EinionYrthb: The Trials are a choice. They are there for the players who enjoy and want to do that kind of fun content. EXACTLY like now the V+ 1 - 10 areas are nerfed presumably because there are some players who enjoy being able to solo primarily through all content up to endgame.
EinionYrthb said: "ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
Crazy talk for an MMO. With the already minimalist UI that TESO has, players here have been shielded somewhat from the risk of their effectiveness coming into question for the mid to lower levels of the game.
*Please remember that ZOS made the decision to not only allow but to court indie Mod creators for TESO. Doing that was also advertising to the potential players that absolutely love mod-enabled gaming and ergo drawing them in.
You know, sort of like how they wanted to draw in vet MMO players who love grouping and learning/preparing in the upper levels in order to be prepared for the endgame content. That's changed though, I digress. Or sort of like including PvP for those gamers who absolutely love that content. Core MMO features done the TESO way, but still core MMO features.
Once you decide that you want to dip your little toe into the pools of endgame content, you are making a decision to find out what is needed, research, work toward obtaining the minimum required gear and weapons, and practice the role you want to obtain in the groups/raids.
Others knowing or wanting to know your effectiveness in content 1 - 50 is just idle curiosity or chit-chat. Others in a group or raid at endgame wanting to know your effectiveness is necessary to even take that group or raid forward into the trials.
There is no reason for you to go into Trials if its not your interest. If you decide to though, you need to get with the program and do what is necessary.
If the next boss around the bend has an enrage timer which sets him up to have 6 times more his already gazillion dmg points that is initiated WHEN/IF/AT THE POINT every time of your particular group or raid dropping below a DPS threshold, then the goal would be for the group or raid NOT TO DO THAT.
Perhaps in a more perfect TESO public relations banquet - a round table with all of the developers who designed this mmo would shed some light on this since they created, approved and set in place the Trials as a viable part of endgame.
Yes, there is a bar to be met if you want to participate and compete in Trials or a lot of upcoming endgame content. And guess what? Working ones way through the former somewhat more challenging V+ 1 - 10 content provided the means to learn the best of how to group, what is effective, and to arrive at endgame PREPARED if they did happen to want to go into endgame and compete.
*Too bad ZOS didn't increase the rewards for grouping, correct the base-class inequality stam/magic ratio crap, adjust the group exp bonus further or find other ways to encourage grouping so folks who DO have an interest in enjoying endgame would have plenty of opportunity to learn; but alas, they adjusted the difficulty lower to facilitate a more enjoyable soloing experience for the players who want that. They could have worked on providing ADDITIONAL soloing quests and activities instead of deleting difficulty.
Edited by Anastasia on July 9, 2014 11:17AM4 -
Mordhar✭✭Sorry for my poor English.
Well, I think group leader was right. Even more, he took his time and explained why he made his decision. So calling him “elitist jerk” is inappropriate.
In every other MMO there is a distinction between PvP builds, solo-PvE builds and group/raid-PvE builds. For example if you want to rule in PvP content, you need to sacrifice you ability to effectively play in PvE and vice versa. You can be an excellent and almost immortal tank (if healed by dedicated healer) but killing single opponent in PvP will be almost impossible. And if you cannot meet certain requirements (DPS/HPS/agro generation) no one take you into group/raid.
In ESO, you can actually maintain two or three different builds on single character. All you need are different sets of equipment and enough skillpoints. Some morphs will be less effective in certain situations, but you still able to play in solo-PvE/group-PvE and even PvP with one character without respec.
There should be some reward for abandoning 2/3 of game content in exchange for maximum effectiveness in one area of specialization. Therefore, if you play all-around hybrid you can do anything, but someone who has specialization for it will do it better.
So, if you want to play 2H+heavy (I do so myself) you definitely have the right to do so. But level up your light armor and staff and spend some skillpoints on them. Just in case you will want to play in group-oriented content.
Remember: in solo PvE you can do anything, no one suffer from your mistakes except you. In PvP you can do almost anything, because if you have poor effectiveness it have little impact on other players of your alliance. But in group-PvE no one cares for your personal pleasure/fun, only thing that matters is your usefulness for a group.
3 -
RedMiniStapler✭✭✭"LFM SoO flex, ilvl 570+, no achieve no invite, no spriest"
I don't have much experience with eso end game, but from my brief raid moment in wow taught me that people want "smooth run" and sometimes those who ask for ridiculous requirements don't even meet them either and just want to be carried.
I'm stubborn as a cranky donkey, and was a bm hunter, of course survivor Hunter did more damage but I refuse to respec to surv. My dps fell behind the other 2 surv hunters in the guild, but I tried my best, and I fully expected to be replaced at any given moment if raid leader didn't think my dps wasn't good enough.
Pug groups will always include at least one jackass who always *** and moan about others performance. To avoid it, find a guild who will put up wit you and help you out, or just simply stay away from group contents.1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nah, I'm still playing the game. And I'll feedback on the forums what I care to when I care to. If that's a problem for you that's your problem.
I plan to be here when your light armor gets nerfed.
Difference is that when light armor gets nerfed, instead of crying and wasting time on forum asking ZOS to buf it because they broke it, I'll just adapt my playstile to the next op stuff 2 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Nah, I'm still playing the game. And I'll feedback on the forums what I care to when I care to. If that's a problem for you that's your problem.
I plan to be here when your light armor gets nerfed.
Difference is that when light armor gets nerfed, instead of crying and wasting time on forum asking ZOS to buf it because they broke it, I'll just adapt my playstile to the next op stuff
First of all, ***, nobody is "crying" about anything. Every dps build in this game besides light armor and staff is under balanced with it and discussing that is entirely legitimate. Nobody buys and subscribes to a game to just play whatever happens to not be broken. Especially when it's everything except pretty much one build.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]Edited by ZOS_SilviaS on July 9, 2014 11:59PM5 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭EinionYrthb16_ESO wrote: »sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
On the other hand having groups fail a trial time and time again with no idea why is probably not the best consequence of a "clean game design".
Just sayin'
EinionYrthb: The Trials are a choice. They are there for the players who enjoy and want to do that kind of fun content. EXACTLY like now the V+ 1 - 10 areas are nerfed presumably because there are some players who enjoy being able to solo primarily through all content up to endgame.
EinionYrthb said: "ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
Crazy talk for an MMO. With the already minimalist UI that TESO has, players here have been shielded somewhat from the risk of their effectiveness coming into question for the mid to lower levels of the game.
*Please remember that ZOS made the decision to not only allow but to court indie Mod creators for TESO. Doing that was also advertising to the potential players that absolutely love mod-enabled gaming and ergo drawing them in.
You know, sort of like how they wanted to draw in vet MMO players who love grouping and learning/preparing in the upper levels in order to be prepared for the endgame content. That's changed though, I digress. Or sort of like including PvP for those gamers who absolutely love that content. Core MMO features done the TESO way, but still core MMO features.
Once you decide that you want to dip your little toe into the pools of endgame content, you are making a decision to find out what is needed, research, work toward obtaining the minimum required gear and weapons, and practice the role you want to obtain in the groups/raids.
Others knowing or wanting to know your effectiveness in content 1 - 50 is just idle curiosity or chit-chat. Others in a group or raid at endgame wanting to know your effectiveness is necessary to even take that group or raid forward into the trials.
There is no reason for you to go into Trials if its not your interest. If you decide to though, you need to get with the program and do what is necessary.
If the next boss around the bend has an enrage timer which sets him up to have 6 times more his already gazillion dmg points that is initiated WHEN/IF/AT THE POINT every time of your particular group or raid dropping below a DPS threshold, then the goal would be for the group or raid NOT TO DO THAT.
Perhaps in a more perfect TESO public relations banquet - a round table with all of the developers who designed this mmo would shed some light on this since they created, approved and set in place the Trials as a viable part of endgame.
Yes, there is a bar to be met if you want to participate and compete in Trials or a lot of upcoming endgame content. And guess what? Working ones way through the former somewhat more challenging V+ 1 - 10 content provided the means to learn the best of how to group, what is effective, and to arrive at endgame PREPARED if they did happen to want to go into endgame and compete.
*Too bad ZOS didn't increase the rewards for grouping, correct the base-class inequality stam/magic ratio crap, adjust the group exp bonus further or find other ways to encourage grouping so folks who DO have an interest in enjoying endgame would have plenty of opportunity to learn; but alas, they adjusted the difficulty lower to facilitate a more enjoyable soloing experience for the players who want that. They could have worked on providing ADDITIONAL soloing quests and activities instead of deleting difficulty.
Could not have said that better myself.
Essentially before level cap (VR cap), this game is Elder Scrolls, with some optional grouping, everyone should be able to do that, with pretty much any build they want.
At the cap, that's when the MMO takes hold, from that point onwards, if it isn't solo, its going to require more thought.
There is a hierarchy in MMO game design
Solo, is easy, everyone should be able to do this (hence the nerfs)
Small group dungeons, can still be done by anyone, but you need to actually attempt to learn how things work, or you will be harming those you play with.
Large group events (trials) require even more effort from the player, by this point you should have progressed from the other 2 and take the game and its mechanics reasonably seriously.
Thinking you can do effective DPS in heavy armour is great in solo and dungeons, but by the time you hit trials, you should know that its not suited to that role and you should not expect others that don't know you to carry you.
Now if you do all that with friends or guildies than those rules/guidelines don't really apply.
This game has attracted a lot of Elder Scrolls fans that know about the first part, but are only now learning about the MMO part.
Maybe they need to add an end game tutorial, like the beginner tutorial.2 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭There is a hierarchy in MMO game design
Solo, is easy, everyone should be able to do this (hence the nerfs)
Why? who wrote that law?
Convention breeds mediocrity. People change and lately there has been a much greater number of people playing MMO's as single players. They don't raid, rarely do dungeons, prefer to take on the content alone. By your unwritten hierarchy they should all be consigned to mind numbing easy content.
You know what I would like to see. Infinite difficulty. Where the last level is mathematically possible to achieve but impossible in practice. Then levelling would mean something. Most games are filled with maxed level players in no time. But if you see a player close to max in my scenario you know where they are on the ability scale. Apply that to ESO and everyone levels as usual in 1 to 50 content. After that the difficulty starts ramping steadily to the point at the end of V10 where beating the content is effectively impossible . All the content is repeatable and gives good rewards so you keep levelling even if you get stuck at a point on that ramp. But it would create a real challenge that everyone could test themselves against.
One day.....maybe someone will make something like that in an MMO1 -
EinionYrth✭✭✭✭EinionYrthb16_ESO wrote: »sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
On the other hand having groups fail a trial time and time again with no idea why is probably not the best consequence of a "clean game design".
Just sayin'
EinionYrthb: The Trials are a choice. They are there for the players who enjoy and want to do that kind of fun content. EXACTLY like now the V+ 1 - 10 areas are nerfed presumably because there are some players who enjoy being able to solo primarily through all content up to endgame.
EinionYrthb said: "ADD ONs thank you for inviting elitist id*ots to the game.
Clean game design without dps prevents this sh*t from happening, because you will never identify the weakest chain.
Crazy talk for an MMO. With the already minimalist UI that TESO has, players here have been shielded somewhat from the risk of their effectiveness coming into question for the mid to lower levels of the game.
*Please remember that ZOS made the decision to not only allow but to court indie Mod creators for TESO. Doing that was also advertising to the potential players that absolutely love mod-enabled gaming and ergo drawing them in.
You know, sort of like how they wanted to draw in vet MMO players who love grouping and learning/preparing in the upper levels in order to be prepared for the endgame content. That's changed though, I digress. Or sort of like including PvP for those gamers who absolutely love that content. Core MMO features done the TESO way, but still core MMO features.
Once you decide that you want to dip your little toe into the pools of endgame content, you are making a decision to find out what is needed, research, work toward obtaining the minimum required gear and weapons, and practice the role you want to obtain in the groups/raids.
Others knowing or wanting to know your effectiveness in content 1 - 50 is just idle curiosity or chit-chat. Others in a group or raid at endgame wanting to know your effectiveness is necessary to even take that group or raid forward into the trials.
There is no reason for you to go into Trials if its not your interest. If you decide to though, you need to get with the program and do what is necessary.
If the next boss around the bend has an enrage timer which sets him up to have 6 times more his already gazillion dmg points that is initiated WHEN/IF/AT THE POINT every time of your particular group or raid dropping below a DPS threshold, then the goal would be for the group or raid NOT TO DO THAT.
Perhaps in a more perfect TESO public relations banquet - a round table with all of the developers who designed this mmo would shed some light on this since they created, approved and set in place the Trials as a viable part of endgame.
Yes, there is a bar to be met if you want to participate and compete in Trials or a lot of upcoming endgame content. And guess what? Working ones way through the former somewhat more challenging V+ 1 - 10 content provided the means to learn the best of how to group, what is effective, and to arrive at endgame PREPARED if they did happen to want to go into endgame and compete.
*Too bad ZOS didn't increase the rewards for grouping, correct the base-class inequality stam/magic ratio crap, adjust the group exp bonus further or find other ways to encourage grouping so folks who DO have an interest in enjoying endgame would have plenty of opportunity to learn; but alas, they adjusted the difficulty lower to facilitate a more enjoyable soloing experience for the players who want that. They could have worked on providing ADDITIONAL soloing quests and activities instead of deleting difficulty.
Some of your attributions are wrong. i.e. I'm quoted as saying stuff that I didn't. Oh and it's "EinionYrth" by the way the "b16_ESO" stuff was added by Zenimax to tell someone that I was in the 16th wave of beta invites.0 -
Synex✭✭✭Well, the actual problem of OP is that the only viable build is still light armor/staff - after more than 3 patches and more than 1 month where this problem was mentioned.
Yes, there were a few changes, but if thats all they are better give up all the unviable spells and make the same old story like the other mmo's.
And this is what I hated in all other MMO's. I thought ESO would go another way.. but I was proofed wrong.
To all who said "this is because the vr nerf" - well, that nerf is out like 2 days... sure, that problem doesn't exist since more than a month and its because of the patch, you are all right *sarcasm*
"In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep"0 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭Well, the actual problem of OP is that the only viable build is still light armor/staff - after more than 3 patches and more than 1 month where this problem was mentioned.
Yes, there were a few changes, but if thats all they are better give up all the unviable spells and make the same old story like the other mmo's.
And this is what I hated in all other MMO's. I thought ESO would go another way.. but I was proofed wrong.
To all who said "this is because the vr nerf" - well, that nerf is out like 2 days... sure, that problem doesn't exist since more than a month and its because of the patch, you are all right *sarcasm*
Rubbish! if you are looking for a sub 10 mins speed run maybe but they can be done with a mixed group of classes and builds if everyone knows the mechanics. Thers a couple of rage timers but you don't need everyone on 1200 dps to beat them.
Pugs tend to be selective because they aren't going to p1ss anyone off they care about. A good guild wont mind taking a sub optimal group if it means everyone has fun.Edited by Hilgara on July 9, 2014 1:00PM1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nah, I'm still playing the game. And I'll feedback on the forums what I care to when I care to. If that's a problem for you that's your problem.
I plan to be here when your light armor gets nerfed.
Difference is that when light armor gets nerfed, instead of crying and wasting time on forum asking ZOS to buf it because they broke it, I'll just adapt my playstile to the next op stuff
First of all, ***, nobody is "crying" about anything. Every dps build in this game besides light armor and staff is under balanced with it and discussing that is entirely legitimate. Nobody buys and subscribes to a game to just play whatever happens to not be broken. Especially when it's everything except pretty much one build.
What is the point of discussing something that doesn't need to be?
Ima repeat myself for like the 10th time: Zenimax is aware of problems with stamina builds and is fixing them. Once the issue is taken into consideration, once ZOS has began fixing it, everything else on the matter (except constructive for feedback on what is implemented and what has to be implemented), is BABYCRY. Take a chillpill and patiently wait like a big boy for the changes to be implemented.
Sure, you have all the right in the world to keep complaining about it, just as much as I have to right to tell you to shut the (snip) up.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]
Regarding builds, "mage caster" is not the best build for PVP so there isn't a "balance problem". The only issue for trials is that you have several DPS runs that can only be won by having Nightblades (who have more DPS than DKs now) and DKs who do insane damage on the boss. Healers and Templars are still needed and as far as I'm aware of they don't need "Caster builds" to be 100% efficient in PVE.
So the real issue here, is that you prolly have a Stamina Nightblade or a Stamina DK that just doesn't do enough DPS and you're frustrated because ZOS is not fixing YOUR build quickly enough?
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]Edited by ZOS_SilviaS on July 10, 2014 12:21AM2 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a hierarchy in MMO game design
Solo, is easy, everyone should be able to do this (hence the nerfs)
Why? who wrote that law?
Convention breeds mediocrity. People change and lately there has been a much greater number of people playing MMO's as single players. They don't raid, rarely do dungeons, prefer to take on the content alone. By your unwritten hierarchy they should all be consigned to mind numbing easy content.
You know what I would like to see. Infinite difficulty. Where the last level is mathematically possible to achieve but impossible in practice. Then levelling would mean something. Most games are filled with maxed level players in no time. But if you see a player close to max in my scenario you know where they are on the ability scale. Apply that to ESO and everyone levels as usual in 1 to 50 content. After that the difficulty starts ramping steadily to the point at the end of V10 where beating the content is effectively impossible . All the content is repeatable and gives good rewards so you keep levelling even if you get stuck at a point on that ramp. But it would create a real challenge that everyone could test themselves against.
One day.....maybe someone will make something like that in an MMO
They wont make a game like that, because it is not possible. If you can come up with a way to make that work, it could be the basis of a nice game.
It would not be an mmo though, as you would people spread throughout the levels from 1 to whatever. There would be no endgame. People would be completely solo till they hit their own individual wall, what then? As the wall is different for each person, they cant do content together.
Looks like you came up with a nice premise for a single player game though.1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
Resolve = 7% damage reduction is nothing in VR PVE dungeons 7% of a 3k hit is nothing Healers don't even notice the difference honestlymike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »LOL im offended , but not really i have a static though most quit due to the imbalances. We dont do trials anymore as there is no real reward for them the gear is aesthetic .
But i have a heavy wearing DK . and out of curiousity what acheivements do you have as a trial leader. Ive a couple, and all the working achievements in the VR dungeons as tank and heals including speed runs. Anyhow i am more then willing to put a group together and decimate every single VR dungeon on both chrs and you can see there is literally no difference in amount of damage i take as a heavy wearing DK or light armor sorc tank. The armor mitigates nothing its the armor number and i can be 1200 past armor and spell resist cap with two buffs. actually the sorc handles spell damage way better.
Let's see, well for one you said armour is useless outside of stat pools. That's completely ignoring all the passives and especially the ones useful to the tank which are to a) receive more healing and b) to reduce the cost of blocking c) faster health regen. The resource pools that suffers most when tanking is not magicka, or in fact health, it's stamina.
Secondly, as a DK you have only Razor Armor and naked with Razor Armor you only move past the soft cap for 3.5 secs. You cannot keep casting Razor Armor every 4 secs in a fight so that's pretty much wrong. Heavy Armour plus Razor Armour puts you near the hard cap where you have to be for boss fights like Hel Ra.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that tanking in Light Armour is far superior to tank in Heavy Armour as you so confidently said. What you are doing is DPSing between bosses which is not tanking. I prefer to press one pre-programmed button to go full light when DPSing and another button to go 5H/2L for boss fights.
You can say you like being a versatile tank, or a lazy tank who can't be bothered to make/swap gear. But you can't say that tanking in Light Armour is better than Heavy. That's the ignorant part
Compared to
Evocation 21% reduction cost of magica abilities.
Constitution = increased recovery 28% only works out of combat just minimizes down time .
compared to
light Recovery 28 % recovery just reduces down time not relevant in combat .
Juggernagut = Increased weapon damage of 3.5 %. no one is using melee weapons as DPs anyhow if you want to complete VR dungeons or trials. SNS is good for tanking and mitigation.
compared toLight armor Spell warding 8% spell resistance per piece 56% resistance lol . Id say juggernaught is completely useless passive honestly
Bracing = 10 % reduced cost of blocking with 5 pieces the only time this is relevant is bosses that one shot with a heavy hit most spell projectiles ignore blocking very few VR bosses does this come into play and honestly it is pretty worthless with Pots anyhow.
compared to
Prodigy = 10% chance increased critical damage. well id say in a sustained fight this here makes the difference in a huge way.
LOL now this one makes me laugh real hard
Rapid mending = 3.5% additional healing for a full 7 pieces of heavy. Seriously every single healer i've had on both my light armor tank and my heavy tank prefer the 50% spell resistance of light armor over a additional 3.5 % healing i'm over healed anyhow.
Nothing in heavy is even remotely equal to light armor. if you think 3.5 % healing is making hel ra doable i dont know what to say. Spike armor will keep you easily 300 to 400 above cap for 20 seconds. if you cant manage that in a rotation as a tank oh well . you dont mitigate anything past that anyhow go look at the parse videos of people posting the incoming damage. the amount of damage mitigated at cap and beyond is minimal very minimal.
As i said my sorc mitigates way better then my DK because of spell resistance physical damage is the same my sorc is 1200 past armor cap in light . i dont think you could Trail naked but quite a bit of the Vr dungeons are doable if your skilled. As i stated the down fall would be your stat pools. If you require proof ill gladly take yoou through any of the VR dungeons of your choice with both Tanks and you can see for yourself. if your past has had experience with bad light armor tanks it comes down to skill and knowledge i suspect they would be bad in heavy as well. Facts are facts Armor type does nothing for mitigation its the armor value and you can easily exceed armor cap with any class in light. Go take a look at that Alacrity Video the whole damn raid even tank was in light with a staff. 13 minute complete time. jesus man are you gonna just ignore facts numbers and proof and call me ignorant? im offering to help you and prove to you so you know the truth and can make informed decisions on how to improve your chr,Passives affect DPS and stat poolsfar more then survivability.
I just find so many flaws in your logic it's mind boggling. This is not the thread for it so I won't argue much further but I'll point out only 2 obvious points you keep missing.
1) A tank's main mitigation comes from blocking. My DK has 40% spell res mitigation. Your Sorc could be soft-capped 50% with Lightning Form. Do you realise how small a difference that is on a player holding block? My block mitigation stands at 78%. So from a 3K hit, only 660 get's through. If that's a spell hit I will mitigate 40% further of that (or 264), you will mitigate 50% (or 330), a difference of 66hp on a 3k hit. My survival is increased by my ability to block for longer not by 10% extra spell res. A heavy armour tank can block for longer and is by definition a better tank.
2) The reason Sorc Tanks are worst tanks is because of the lack of self-heals. Dark Exchange cannot be used in combat and it trades your precious stamina anyway. Crit Surge is for DPSing not tanking, you cannot hope to outheal the dmg of a boss by DPSing him. If the Healer runs out of magicka or dies by standing in red, DKs and Templars can heal themselves until the healer is backup. A Sorc-Tank can't do that. If the healer dies, the Tank then dies and group wipes.
You can keep talking about how light armour is great for tanking because of 21% spell crit, when none of the tank abilities (Razor Armor, GDB, Bound Armour, Lightning Form etc.) crit. Yeah real useful
Ive already offered to show you . Look im pissed about the situation you think i like it this way i would much rather use heavy! do you like being magica starved?DO you like not making DPS checks on some of the bosses? Also is that what you do is stand there and hold your block 100% of the time? Im starting to think you dont tank end game dungeons at all or trials ?. Ive already stated i SNS and i already previously explained several damn times that most mitigation comes from blocking . And if you have to use Green dragon blood as part of your rotation you need to talk to your healer he is not doing his job. I Have both a DK V12 tank and a Sorc tank and by far i prefer the Sorc. Why? Ranged AOE A huge radius AOE Mez ultimate. The rest of the tanking stuff comes from Guilds or weapons anyhow.
Please just take the offer to come sit in on a group i will prove to you there is no difference on mitigation .take your pick of any VR dungeon we will alternate pulls you tank ill dps ill tank then you DPS. I WANT HEAVY ARMOR TO BE VIABLE but it is simply under powered compared to light. As for blocking longer if your standing in a 12 mob trash pulll holding block and just taunting the chargers your group should throw you out for being a lazy jerk while they try to CC archers casters and burn healers. Your job is not to sit there and take damage Your a DPS CC with a taunt.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on July 9, 2014 1:45PM1 -
xMovingTarget wrote: »That nightblade pulls out 850-1.1k dps while dualwielding lol. Its not so much about medium + dualwield. It´s more about the playstyle, build and Skillrotation.
@xMovingTarget
can you please pm me? have some questions about doing that dps
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »That nightblade pulls out 850-1.1k dps while dualwielding lol. Its not so much about medium + dualwield. It´s more about the playstyle, build and Skillrotation.
@xMovingTarget
can you please pm me? have some questions about doing that dps
Just a flurry Build likely i doubt he is using more then that from dual wield2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ive already offered to show you . Look im pissed about the situation you think i like it this way i would much rather use heavy! do you like being magica starved?DO you like not making DPS checks on some of the bosses? Also is that what you do is stand there and hold your block 100% of the time? Im starting to think you dont tank end game dungeons at all or trials ?. Ive already stated i SNS and i already previously explained several damn times that most mitigation comes from blocking . And if you have to use Green dragon blood as part of your rotation you need to talk to your healer he is not doing his job. I Have both a DK V12 tank and a Sorc tank and by far i prefer the Sorc. Why? Ranged AOE A huge radius AOE Mez ultimate. The rest of the tanking stuff comes from Guilds or weapons anyhow.
Please just take the offer to come sit in on a group i will prove to you there is no difference on mitigation .take your pick of any VR dungeon we will alternate pulls you tank ill dps ill tank then you DPS. I WANT HEAVY ARMOR TO BE VIABLE but it is simply under powered compared to light. As for blocking longer if your standing in a 12 mob trash pulll holding block and just taunting the chargers your group should throw you out for being a lazy jerk while they try to CC archers casters and burn healers. Your job is not to sit there and take damage Your a DPS CC with a taunt.
Regarding the bolded text, and for the 100th time:
In trash pulls, I'm not tanking at all. I don't need to tank trash pulls. Tanking in this game is only relevant and necessary in certain boss fights. Between bosses, I press one button and switch from Heavy to 7/7 Light for maximum DPS. Which by the way is far superior on the DK than the Sorc. While your lazy bum, is sitting there with bound armour on, doing sub-par DPS on the mobs. I'd have thrown you out. The same applies to some bosses that can't really be turtle tanked, like Shada.
Regarding the sentence after it:
This may come as a surprise to you, but sitting there and taking damage is precisely what the job of a turtle tank is on boss fights. A turtle tank is not a DPS CC. I try to keep the boss and adds aggro on me as much as possible, so that DDs and healers do their job of clearing them.
Green Dragon Blood is not part of my "rotation", it's my emergency button in case the healer skips a beat (or dies). If you can't see why self-heals are important for a tank than I don't know what else to say. Also yes I absolutely do hold block all the time in boss fights, because I animation cancel all my skills (usually buffs, debuffs or taunts) with block. Which means I get far less damage and make my healers life a lot easier.
If you're in EU, I'll happily take your offer. Not playing much atm due to the World Cup, but I can pm you my in-game id and we can go tank anything you want Edited by Maulkin on July 9, 2014 2:46PMEU | PC | AD1 -
Delte✭✭✭It happens in all MMO's find a new group and play with them. Its one of the many reason I like to play with role players in mmo's. They often don't care on the build just as long as you stay in character. Also very few elitists as well in these types of group.2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Boy did your story change but im on NA . heavy is broken sorry enjoy your daymike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ive already offered to show you . Look im pissed about the situation you think i like it this way i would much rather use heavy! do you like being magica starved?DO you like not making DPS checks on some of the bosses? Also is that what you do is stand there and hold your block 100% of the time? Im starting to think you dont tank end game dungeons at all or trials ?. Ive already stated i SNS and i already previously explained several damn times that most mitigation comes from blocking . And if you have to use Green dragon blood as part of your rotation you need to talk to your healer he is not doing his job. I Have both a DK V12 tank and a Sorc tank and by far i prefer the Sorc. Why? Ranged AOE A huge radius AOE Mez ultimate. The rest of the tanking stuff comes from Guilds or weapons anyhow.
Please just take the offer to come sit in on a group i will prove to you there is no difference on mitigation .take your pick of any VR dungeon we will alternate pulls you tank ill dps ill tank then you DPS. I WANT HEAVY ARMOR TO BE VIABLE but it is simply under powered compared to light. As for blocking longer if your standing in a 12 mob trash pulll holding block and just taunting the chargers your group should throw you out for being a lazy jerk while they try to CC archers casters and burn healers. Your job is not to sit there and take damage Your a DPS CC with a taunt.
Regarding the bolded text, and for the 100th time:
In trash pulls, I'm not tanking at all. I don't need to tank trash pulls. Tanking in this game is only relevant and necessary in certain boss fights. Between bosses, I press one button and switch from Heavy to 7/7 Light for maximum DPS. Which by the way is far superior on the DK than the Sorc. While your lazy bum, is sitting there with bound armour on, doing sub-par DPS on the mobs. I'd have thrown you out. The same applies to some bosses that can't really be turtle tanked, like Shada.
Regarding the sentence after it:
This may come as a surprise to you, but sitting there and taking damage is precisely what the job of a turtle tank is on boss fights. A turtle tank is not a DPS CC. I try to keep the boss and adds aggro on me as much as possible, so that DDs and healers do their job of clearing them.
Green Dragon Blood is not part of my "rotation", it's my emergency button in case the healer skips a beat (or dies). If you can't see why self-heals are important for a tank than I don't know what else to say. Also yes I absolutely do hold block all the time in boss fights, because I animation cancel all my skills (usually buffs, debuffs or taunts) with block. Which means I get far less damage and make my healers life a lot easier.
If you're in EU, I'll happily take your offer. Not playing much atm due to the World Cup, but I can pm you my in-game id and we can go tank anything you want
Also FYI all those gear swap mods are broken now.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on July 9, 2014 3:10PM2 -
Exarch✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Sometimes you have to just be aware and intelligent. An informed ESO player knows that using stamina is not optimal for DPS, nor is heavy armor. If you don't like it then complain, quit, don't do trails, or whatever, but don't try to force someone to carry you because you are protesting the terrible state of stamina builds by running one. If you are going to try to do trials, do some research and come up with an at least half way viable build for it.
The fundamental disagreement I have always had with min-maxers is that "optimal" and "viable" do not mean the same thing; if you acknowledge that builds come in varying degrees of viable, that there is a range, then you cannot state that anyone who has deviated from the optimal is "force[ing] someone to carry" them.3 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Boy did your story change but im on NA . heavy is broken sorry enjoy your day
Did it?mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »LOL im offended , but not really i have a static though most quit due to the imbalances. We dont do trials anymore as there is no real reward for them the gear is aesthetic .
But i have a heavy wearing DK . and out of curiousity what acheivements do you have as a trial leader. Ive a couple, and all the working achievements in the VR dungeons as tank and heals including speed runs. Anyhow i am more then willing to put a group together and decimate every single VR dungeon on both chrs and you can see there is literally no difference in amount of damage i take as a heavy wearing DK or light armor sorc tank. The armor mitigates nothing its the armor number and i can be 1200 past armor and spell resist cap with two buffs. actually the sorc handles spell damage way better.
Let's see, well for one you said armour is useless outside of stat pools. That's completely ignoring all the passives and especially the ones useful to the tank which are to a) receive more healing and b) to reduce the cost of blocking c) faster health regen. The resource pools that suffers most when tanking is not magicka, or in fact health, it's stamina.
Secondly, as a DK you have only Razor Armor and naked with Razor Armor you only move past the soft cap for 3.5 secs. You cannot keep casting Razor Armor every 4 secs in a fight so that's pretty much wrong. Heavy Armour plus Razor Armour puts you near the hard cap where you have to be for boss fights like Hel Ra.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that tanking in Light Armour is far superior to tank in Heavy Armour as you so confidently said. What you are doing is DPSing between bosses which is not tanking. I prefer to press one pre-programmed button to go full light when DPSing and another button to go 5H/2L for boss fights.
You can say you like being a versatile tank, or a lazy tank who can't be bothered to make/swap gear. But you can't say that tanking in Light Armour is better than Heavy. That's the ignorant part
Or is it that you can't read?
Edited by Maulkin on July 9, 2014 3:11PMEU | PC | AD1 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »So the OP is at fault because he chose a Tank setup for his DPS character. That's fair...ish. But kicking him is pretty bad group dynamics. This is all just sad.
Any of you guys want to join me in a melancholy remembrance of the days when we thought ESO was going to make traditional group roles obsolete? The days when hybrid playstyles were going to be totally viable? Ah, those heady early days when the forums had threads like "Tanks are Irrelevant in ESO" and "4 DPS Best for Group Dungeons?"
*Whistful sigh*
Honestly, I would take everything people are saying about heavy armor not being 'good' with a grain of salt. What they mean to say, is that heavy armor is not optimal. And once number crunchers figure out what is optimal, most tend to stop testing anything else. It may take a more difficult rotation or build or playstyle, but I'm willing to bet it is viable in most if not all situations if done properly.
Or you can all take their word for gospel and play restro/destro light armor until Zenimax makes it easier to use heavy armor and melee weapons effectively.
If you don't want your raid leader to notice your armor, wear a disguise...they cannot inspect you like in other games.
2 -
Tremulous✭✭✭Well as I have not reach vet yet I wouldn't know but I'm a nightblade dual wield and my only stam ability is rapid strikes (upgrade flurry) is that still bad?
(3 light 4 med) Edited by Tremulous on July 9, 2014 3:39PM1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Boy did your story change but im on NA . heavy is broken sorry enjoy your day
Did it?mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »LOL im offended , but not really i have a static though most quit due to the imbalances. We dont do trials anymore as there is no real reward for them the gear is aesthetic .
But i have a heavy wearing DK . and out of curiousity what acheivements do you have as a trial leader. Ive a couple, and all the working achievements in the VR dungeons as tank and heals including speed runs. Anyhow i am more then willing to put a group together and decimate every single VR dungeon on both chrs and you can see there is literally no difference in amount of damage i take as a heavy wearing DK or light armor sorc tank. The armor mitigates nothing its the armor number and i can be 1200 past armor and spell resist cap with two buffs. actually the sorc handles spell damage way better.
Let's see, well for one you said armour is useless outside of stat pools. That's completely ignoring all the passives and especially the ones useful to the tank which are to a) receive more healing and b) to reduce the cost of blocking c) faster health regen. The resource pools that suffers most when tanking is not magicka, or in fact health, it's stamina.
Secondly, as a DK you have only Razor Armor and naked with Razor Armor you only move past the soft cap for 3.5 secs. You cannot keep casting Razor Armor every 4 secs in a fight so that's pretty much wrong. Heavy Armour plus Razor Armour puts you near the hard cap where you have to be for boss fights like Hel Ra.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that tanking in Light Armour is far superior to tank in Heavy Armour as you so confidently said. What you are doing is DPSing between bosses which is not tanking. I prefer to press one pre-programmed button to go full light when DPSing and another button to go 5H/2L for boss fights.
You can say you like being a versatile tank, or a lazy tank who can't be bothered to make/swap gear. But you can't say that tanking in Light Armour is better than Heavy. That's the ignorant part
Or is it that you can't read?
Resolve = 7% damage reduction is nothing in VR PVE dungeons 7% of a 3k hit is nothing Healers don't even notice the difference honestly
Compared to
Evocation 21% reduction cost of magica abilities.
Constitution = increased recovery 28% only works out of combat just minimizes down time .
compared to
light Recovery 28 % recovery just reduces down time not relevant in combat .
Juggernagut = Increased weapon damage of 3.5 %. no one is using melee weapons as DPs anyhow if you want to complete VR dungeons or trials. SNS is good for tanking and mitigation.
compared toLight armor Spell warding 8% spell resistance per piece 56% resistance lol . Id say juggernaught is completely useless passive honestly
Bracing = 10 % reduced cost of blocking with 5 pieces the only time this is relevant is bosses that one shot with a heavy hit most spell projectiles ignore blocking very few VR bosses does this come into play and honestly it is pretty worthless with Pots anyhow.
compared to
Prodigy = 10% chance increased critical damage. well id say in a sustained fight this here makes the difference in a huge way.
LOL now this one makes me laugh real hard
Rapid mending = 3.5% additional healing for a full 7 pieces of heavy. Seriously every single healer i've had on both my light armor tank and my heavy tank prefer the 50% spell resistance of light armor over a additional 3.5 % healing i'm over healed anyhow.
If heavy Armor actually offered extra mitigation it would be worth at least something. Currently it does not Light mitgates just as much as heavy does its just the armor value that does which can be reach cap very very easy.
I think i read the Tool tips right. the numbers speak for them selves. If i have problems with stam on some bosses i just swap to some medium pieces and change food. Sorry but i just dont see anything of value in heavy armor. the cap is the same . Seeing how every single ability that you would use to tank aside from immovable or Circle which are completely situational tools for certain bosses . I view heavy armor as worthless. really a 3.5 percent increase to healing and reduced blocking? you really swap a full set of gear for that? To each his own Enjoy your day and world cup.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on July 9, 2014 3:44PM1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭MasterSpatula wrote: »So the OP is at fault because he chose a Tank setup for his DPS character. That's fair...ish. But kicking him is pretty bad group dynamics. This is all just sad.
Any of you guys want to join me in a melancholy remembrance of the days when we thought ESO was going to make traditional group roles obsolete? The days when hybrid playstyles were going to be totally viable? Ah, those heady early days when the forums had threads like "Tanks are Irrelevant in ESO" and "4 DPS Best for Group Dungeons?"
*Whistful sigh*
Honestly, I would take everything people are saying about heavy armor not being 'good' with a grain of salt. What they mean to say, is that heavy armor is not optimal. And once number crunchers figure out what is optimal, most tend to stop testing anything else. It may take a more difficult rotation or build or playstyle, but I'm willing to bet it is viable in most if not all situations if done properly.
Or you can all take their word for gospel and play restro/destro light armor until Zenimax makes it easier to use heavy armor and melee weapons effectively.
If you don't want your raid leader to notice your armor, wear a disguise...they cannot inspect you like in other games.
The thing is there is optimal, viable and non viable. For DPS, light is optimal, medium is viable and heavy is non viable. Heavy has nothing that helps dps at all.
You would get the best time with a team of light armour wearers.
If the players really know their stuff, you could pass the trial with everyone in medium, it may be close though.
If everyone was in heavy, there is not a chance on this earth they could pass them, even the best players around would fail them with all dps in Heavy.
You don't need everyone in light, but if your failing repeatedly, its logical to remove the person who can contribute the least.
Basically if you want to DPS, wear the armour that gives better dps, not the armour that only has tanking passives. Its not rocket science.1