Kicked from pug trial group for my playstyle...

Cody · July 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

"Do you think it, at all, reasonable that light armor and staff builds are the only viable dps for trials?"

It's called Mechanics. Is it normal that a fireball hurts more and longer than a sword? <= Yes.

Fleymark wrote: »

"Zenimax never said you would be successful with "play your way?" THAT'S your argument? That's like saying a car manufacturer never said you could drive the car they sold you...It will just be good driveway decoration."

Erm no, its like a car manufacturer lending you a car factory giving you all the materials that you want and freedom of design<= If you decide to place one wheel in the midle and make your car 20m high, don't blame the manufacturer for your stupid ideas.

Fleymark wrote: »

If this game had the balance issues that ESO currently does, only the wizards, sorcerers and magicians could do the end game content.

Except it's not the case in ESO, not only sorcs can do end game content Craglorn is end game content .

Fleymark wrote: »

It's not fine with everyone having to spec EXACTLY THE SAME WAY to be optimal. There's a huge difference. Because it's just like saying that only wizards, sorcerers and mages get to dps end game. And that's absurd in this game or any other.

You call it absurd, I call it mechanics (plus it's not true you have to spec EXACTLY the same way). Rocks are stronger than wood. They DPS more when you throw them at crybabies like you, you find this absurd? I call it Natural Mechanics. IRL you can fight with guns or arow & bow. Odly, wars are fought with guns because they do more DPS than bows. There is no balance in the world, why should there be in the game? Why should swords be as strong as spells? This is your point of view, your wish, maybe it's not ZOS's?

Bottom line: Less QQ more Pew Pew, if you don't like the game, just unsub or patiently wait for evolution to kick in and classes to be more balanced.

well, thing is, people don't play video games for realism, its a GAME. its supposed to be FUN. an ESCAPE from real life in a game, I really DO expect a sword to be at least very close to the power of a fire ball, because its not fun when one build is so much more power full than the other types of builds. Stop defending crap like this, it is a problem, call everyone here a whiner if you want.

Maulkin · July 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think i read the Tool tips right. the numbers speak for them selves. If i have problems with stam on some bosses i just swap to some medium pieces and change food. Sorry but i just dont see anything of value in heavy armor. the cap is the same . Seeing how every single ability that you would use to tank aside from immovable or Circle which are completely situational tools for certain bosses . I view heavy armor as worthless. really a 3.5 percent increase to healing and reduced blocking? you really swap a full set of gear for that? To each his own Enjoy your day and world cup.

Yep, I swap to to 5H/2L for boss tanking and swap back to 7/7 Light when the fight is over. It's not costly, I only have to press one button.

Why would you put Medium Armor to tank? You're losing out on both armor and spell res, on top of the block cost reduction which at 20% is huge. You'll also not be able to sustain Lightning Form because you lost the spell cost reduction.

There's a reason every high-end tank spec you see on theorycrafting threads has minimum 5H. Heavy armour could do with some improvements for sure, but it's neither broken nor useless. I would like to see the same perk that was added to Medium's Wind Walker (stamina cost reduction) added to Heavy's Consitution.

I'll enjoy the World Cup, so long as the Germans keep trolling everybody

Have a good day yourself

xMovingTarget · July 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Bobojones wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

That nightblade pulls out 850-1.1k dps while dualwielding lol. Its not so much about medium + dualwield. It´s more about the playstyle, build and Skillrotation.

@xMovingTarget‌
can you please pm me? have some questions about doing that dps

Just a flurry Build likely i doubt he is using more then that from dual wield

I think too. I would ask him, but havnt seen that guy online for days -.- But yeah, he was using Flurry and weaving.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think i read the Tool tips right. the numbers speak for them selves. If i have problems with stam on some bosses i just swap to some medium pieces and change food. Sorry but i just dont see anything of value in heavy armor. the cap is the same . Seeing how every single ability that you would use to tank aside from immovable or Circle which are completely situational tools for certain bosses . I view heavy armor as worthless. really a 3.5 percent increase to healing and reduced blocking? you really swap a full set of gear for that? To each his own Enjoy your day and world cup.

I'll enjoy the World Cup, so long as the Germans keep trolling everybody

Have a good day yourself

Man that hurt just listening to it on the radio. Yeah i still have a radio, shut up!

Durham · July 2014

Stratti wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

jambam817_ESO wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

I would have kicked you too... Some things just don't work well in this game atm, unfortunately. You really should respec... and it would be wise to listen to people who offer advice.

Jerk.

He's not being a jerk, he's being realistic. Most of the people in this thread talking about elitest players, jerks, and idiots have never done a single trial.

The simple fact of the matter is that the trials are designed a certain way and it comes down to a dps check. The OP might be different, but most people wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h weapon simply aren't effective in trials.

You need a certain amount of sustained dps to beat a trial with a good group, not to mention a pug with little coordination.

If you're using a melee weapon, than you are having to run in and out of range because of boss AoE and other mechanics, which lowers your DPS. If you are wearing heavy armor, than you most likely don't have the resources or the regen to spam skills for 3 straight minutes, which will kill your dps.

Not enough dps=wipe. If you refuse to adjust your build simply because you don't want to, then you can't blame other players for not wanting you in their group.

There are only 2 types of players for trials... those that can help and those that can hurt. Try to be one of the types that can help and you'll be fine.

This is really no different than asking in zone chat for a healer and getting a tank just because he wants to be part of a group.

I think the OP understand this. It is not about the players, it is how the trials were designed.

I haven't started trials yet but have been hardcore raider for a decade and a few things concern me.

1. Nobody knows any real theorycrafting around these encounters yet.

2. We cannot at this time judge someone dps. There is no way of knowing OP dps not like wow where we can see the metre

3. The ONLY way 1 player can be impacting a group on a dps check boss is if the group is bad - that is say there 8 dps and u need 4800 dps . If you only pull 300 and your group fails that means your group was bad not just you. Again if the group was geared they could have carried the drop on a particular encounter - perhaps the next requires melee.

These points led to the conclusion that OP was scapegoated by a pseudo elitist who organised a pug and downed two bosses the all of a sudden it's - THAT ONE'S fault we died.

Sad methinks

Yes you have not done it

Taiminator · July 2014

Why anyone would choose heavy armor to DPS and then complain why that setup isn't wanted in a competetive environment, is beyond me. Do you really expect to deal equal damage to a light or medium armor user while having all that extra armor and health regen or whatever heavy armor passives are. Heavy Armor is meant of tanking in every game. Expecting to deal equal damage with more mitigation is not reasonable.

Durham · July 2014

Phantax wrote: »

@Durham

Durham wrote: »

I have wiped on that so many times in pickups , we have a hard time getting past the first boss...

Ahh.. so it was ok for those groups to carry you then ?

Why me? Was I weakest maybe? Why go there ?

But my point was I was in a pick up group nothing wrong with that

But we are not optimal at all !! All of us knew it

I was also DPS VET12 DK in light armer or I tanked in a combo of medium and heavy as long as I was on just the boss

By the way If I was in all heavy and carrying a two hander they probally would have asked me to chang up ..just saying

KariTR · July 2014

Mordhar wrote: »

Sorry for my poor English.

Well, I think group leader was right. Even more, he took his time and explained why he made his decision. So calling him “elitist jerk” is inappropriate.

In every other MMO there is a distinction between PvP builds, solo-PvE builds and group/raid-PvE builds. For example if you want to rule in PvP content, you need to sacrifice you ability to effectively play in PvE and vice versa. You can be an excellent and almost immortal tank (if healed by dedicated healer) but killing single opponent in PvP will be almost impossible. And if you cannot meet certain requirements (DPS/HPS/agro generation) no one take you into group/raid.

In ESO, you can actually maintain two or three different builds on single character. All you need are different sets of equipment and enough skillpoints. Some morphs will be less effective in certain situations, but you still able to play in solo-PvE/group-PvE and even PvP with one character without respec.
There should be some reward for abandoning 2/3 of game content in exchange for maximum effectiveness in one area of specialization. Therefore, if you play all-around hybrid you can do anything, but someone who has specialization for it will do it better.

So, if you want to play 2H+heavy (I do so myself) you definitely have the right to do so. But level up your light armor and staff and spend some skillpoints on them. Just in case you will want to play in group-oriented content.
Remember: in solo PvE you can do anything, no one suffer from your mistakes except you. In PvP you can do almost anything, because if you have poor effectiveness it have little impact on other players of your alliance. But in group-PvE no one cares for your personal pleasure/fun, only thing that matters is your usefulness for a group.

Considering you think your English to be poor, you explained that perfectly.

And every point you make is true.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think i read the Tool tips right. the numbers speak for them selves. If i have problems with stam on some bosses i just swap to some medium pieces and change food. Sorry but i just dont see anything of value in heavy armor. the cap is the same . Seeing how every single ability that you would use to tank aside from immovable or Circle which are completely situational tools for certain bosses . I view heavy armor as worthless. really a 3.5 percent increase to healing and reduced blocking? you really swap a full set of gear for that? To each his own Enjoy your day and world cup.

Yep, I swap to to 5H/2L for boss tanking and swap back to 7/7 Light when the fight is over. It's not costly, I only have to press one button.

Why would you put Medium Armor to tank? You're losing out on both armor and spell res, on top of the block cost reduction which at 20% is huge. You'll also not be able to sustain Lightning Form because you lost the spell cost reduction.

There's a reason every high-end tank spec you see on theorycrafting threads has minimum 5H. Heavy armour could do with some improvements for sure, but it's neither broken nor useless. I would like to see the same perk that was added to Medium's Wind Walker (stamina cost reduction) added to Heavy's Consitution.

I'll enjoy the World Cup, so long as the Germans keep trolling everybody

Have a good day yourself

Unfortunately all the high end guilds completeing trials all use Full light at least form vids i have seen. I never have to I tank all bosses in light armor with zero issues. I have swapped in my DK when hundings was worthy of using or so we thought with the 20% but ended up being broken, and i was using some Situational Stam abilities.And truthfuly ive been using light as of recently with my DK and experimenting with martial knowledge and willows combo. ive had no issues tanking at all like this did some AA 2 boss farming with it as well. And it will almost make a single target Flurry build worth it on some fights it being all light works for Destro build as well

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think i read the Tool tips right. the numbers speak for them selves. If i have problems with stam on some bosses i just swap to some medium pieces and change food. Sorry but i just dont see anything of value in heavy armor. the cap is the same . Seeing how every single ability that you would use to tank aside from immovable or Circle which are completely situational tools for certain bosses . I view heavy armor as worthless. really a 3.5 percent increase to healing and reduced blocking? you really swap a full set of gear for that? To each his own Enjoy your day and world cup.

Yep, I swap to to 5H/2L for boss tanking and swap back to 7/7 Light when the fight is over. It's not costly, I only have to press one button.

Why would you put Medium Armor to tank? You're losing out on both armor and spell res, on top of the block cost reduction which at 20% is huge. You'll also not be able to sustain Lightning Form because you lost the spell cost reduction.

There's a reason every high-end tank spec you see on theorycrafting threads has minimum 5H. Heavy armour could do with some improvements for sure, but it's neither broken nor useless. I would like to see the same perk that was added to Medium's Wind Walker (stamina cost reduction) added to Heavy's Consitution.

I'll enjoy the World Cup, so long as the Germans keep trolling everybody

Have a good day yourself

Wifeaggro13 · July 2014

[delete

Durham · July 2014

Taiminator wrote: »

Why anyone would choose heavy armor to DPS and then complain why that setup isn't wanted in a competetive environment, is beyond me. Do you really expect to deal equal damage to a light or medium armor user while having all that extra armor and health regen or whatever heavy armor passives are. Heavy Armor is meant of tanking in every game. Expecting to deal equal damage with more mitigation is not reasonable.

Yes I just love the extra 10 health regen every 2 secs lol... I think Heavy needs more mitigation in this game

It needs more help ... I prefer heavy in MMO's I would love to wear it .... I just cant wear it in this game, unless Im the tank holding agro on one boss...... In PVP im constantly out of endo because I need endo to sprint/break CC/keep from being CCed/ stealth/block ....

I have suggested before what would really help heavy armor.. It would be a endo set in heavy like the warlock set in light... Maybe a Endo Furnace set

Also a set that is not broke that adds critical is nice to... The current sets totally favor magicka over endo

BugCollector · July 2014

I honestly feel for you guys who are stamina/medium armor/heavy armor users.
Zenimax should make those builds more viable, because atm light armor/magicka builds are king.

Valn · July 2014

BugCollector wrote: »

I honestly feel for you guys who are stamina/medium armor/heavy armor users.
Zenimax should make those builds more viable, because atm light armor/magicka builds are king.

Yep

cracker81 · July 2014

I am sorry you was kicked. If you are looking end game raiding you will need things. First you would want a damage per second addon(sucks this how you see how much you put out) after you know how much try other builds. Then compare your build with others. Now I would not kick you from group due to two handed/ heavy. First I would look at your dps if it is ok I am ok. Ok meaning the best build puts out 3k and you put out 2.5k it is ok. Then I would look if you keep standing in stuff. You will most likely need team speak/ventrillio or someway to speak to others. I have not started raiding in ESO at the moment. Mostly trying use what you picked and reading/ learning more about your toon. As long as you are paying attention to the surroundings and learning you will be fine for raids. Not saying be the best, just the best you can be. Would you want to raid with someone that is putting out 500 dps or he/she dies in the first few seconds of a fight, your group wipes due to said person?

Fleymark · July 2014

Durham wrote: »

Taiminator wrote: »

Why anyone would choose heavy armor to DPS and then complain why that setup isn't wanted in a competetive environment, is beyond me. Do you really expect to deal equal damage to a light or medium armor user while having all that extra armor and health regen or whatever heavy armor passives are. Heavy Armor is meant of tanking in every game. Expecting to deal equal damage with more mitigation is not reasonable.

Yes I just love the extra 10 health regen every 2 secs lol... I think Heavy needs more mitigation in this game It needs more help ... I prefer heavy in MMO's I would love to wear it .... I just cant wear it in this game, unless Im the tank holding agro on one boss...... In PVP im constantly out of endo because I need endo to sprint/break CC/keep from being CCed/ stealth/block ....

I have suggested before what would really help heavy armor.. It would be a endo set in heavy like the warlock set in light... Maybe a Endo Furnace set Also a set that is not broke that adds critical is nice to... The current sets totally favor magicka over endo

They said a couple of weeks ago in a thread that they are looking at putting more and or better sets for stamina builds.

Which will be nice, because hundings is about it from the crafted sets and, as you mention, it either broken or not working the way we thought.

Fleymark · July 2014

Actually...Just read the latest Road Ahead...There was mention of new armor sets and a new way to find complete sets. If I read that correctly.

ckf12b14_ESO · July 2014

Welcome to end-game MMO.

This is an MMO first, Elder Scrolls second.

When it comes to end-game raids, people want to win and they want to do it fast so they can get their end-tier loot. That means they want the best builds and the best characters. And yes, that means "ew cookie cutter builds". They're cookie cutter because they work and they work well. You can play as unorthodoxy as you want, no one will stop you. But that means you handicap yourself compared to these cookie cutter builds, so you can't blame people for wanting the statistically superior build for their time trial run.

You can have your cake, but you can't eat it too.

Ish_Fingers · July 2014

I have unfortunately been witness to similar treatment OP, though it was another member of the group who received the hostilities. A member if the guild asked if someone could come help out in some dungeons and I'm always happy to oblige.

The victim was Lv.20 DK tank and we were running the three 20-23 dungeons. We started in Elden Hollow and, despite a few deaths (no wipes) we made it through. Though it was tarnished by constant whining from our group leader about the tank taking too much damage.

Long story short, the leader kicked the tank as we were about to enter the 2nd dungeon and said he is looking for another. There was no communication or attempt to help the tank, just passive-aggressive remarks. I promptly left the group, befriended the tank and helped him find (and finish) the remaining dungeons.

I understand that for a lot of people, this may be their first MMO experience and they're probably not 'hardcore' players. I don't consider myself 'hardcore' either but fortunately played enough MMOs to understand what's what. And by being lenient towards these players, they're more likely going to stay and play for longer thus making all our game time more enjoyable.

Say NO to elitism.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · July 2014

The whole debate made up about elitest jerks is so stupid, it's unbelievable, again.

The situation in this case is, that 1 group wanted to complete the trials, and they wiped. It's only logical, to search for errors then, and running with Heavy Armor + 2H as a DPS in endgame-content is one.

Blame Zenimax for promising things to the players that they couldn't keep, but don't blame a Raid-leader or even a whole crowd of players for trying to be successful.

If he had thrown him out because "friend A just came online and wants the kill on the endboss after a flawless raid 'til then" , then blame him, but not for what happened.

Maulkin · July 2014

Ish_Fingers wrote: »

I have unfortunately been witness to similar treatment OP, though it was another member of the group who received the hostilities. A member if the guild asked if someone could come help out in some dungeons and I'm always happy to oblige.

The victim was Lv.20 DK tank and we were running the three 20-23 dungeons. We started in Elden Hollow and, despite a few deaths (no wipes) we made it through. Though it was tarnished by constant whining from our group leader about the tank taking too much damage.

Long story short, the leader kicked the tank as we were about to enter the 2nd dungeon and said he is looking for another. There was no communication or attempt to help the tank, just passive-aggressive remarks. I promptly left the group, befriended the tank and helped him find (and finish) the remaining dungeons.

I understand that for a lot of people, this may be their first MMO experience and they're probably not 'hardcore' players. I don't consider myself 'hardcore' either but fortunately played enough MMOs to understand what's what. And by being lenient towards these players, they're more likely going to stay and play for longer thus making all our game time more enjoyable.

Say NO to elitism.

Your actions are commendable but how is that any similar to the situation described by the OP?

The OPs raid wiped 3 times, unlike your example. Usually if it wipes 3-4 times the first couple of people will leave and the team of 12 will quickly fall apart and disband. The raid leader has only a few attempts at identifying and remedying the problem by changing something (or someone).

Whether the OP was the only problem of the raid we don't know, but his setup was clearly sub-optimal for the task at hand and the raid leader explained so, in what seems a polite manner. He didn't just kick him without a word or worse insults like "l2p noob!"

This is not an issue of elitism.

federico.pietropollib16_ESO · July 2014

Hi!
I am Rayssa, the raid leader and, after several insults that I'm getting every day, due to this post, I feel compelled to respond.

First of all I would like to apologize to Valn for inviting him to leave the raid (I've never kicked anyone in my life). The player with whom you spoke was a friend of mine, because of my bad English and his better knowledge of your class.

On the average, in two hours we complete the trial 6/7 times, with a nice timing for a pickup group (around 21 minutes atm).

Failing to complete a systematic trials with other guilds, I wanted to try a method already experienced in other games.
I started to create a group inviting pickup players, and every time I selected players who had certain characteristics of hps / dps and that had been particularly responsive to the dynamics of the trial.

The result is a pool of players I can trust that grows daily with which systematically I complete the Trial.

You can certainly object me that the system is not morally appropriate and that maybe unpleasant, but I obtain the result I set.

Valn, if you can correct a bit your build (if you need someone to skill new weapons, I’m going to questing in PVP zone), I‘d be happy if you joined us again. The problem wasn’t you but the Pve-weaken skills that I hope they will improve.

Sorry for my English :P
Rayssa

Valn · July 2014

yup

timidobserver · July 2014

Valn wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Sometimes you have to just be aware and intelligent. An informed ESO player knows that using stamina is not optimal for DPS, nor is heavy armor. If you don't like it then complain, quit, don't do trails, or whatever, but don't try to force someone to carry you because you are protesting the terrible state of stamina builds by running one. If you are going to try to do trials, do some research and come up with an at least half way viable build for it.

That's not my problem. I want to play the way I want, unfortunately with trials i'm forced to play a certain way with certain equipment and if i dont i get removed from the PUG group.

Its zenimax's fault that magicka staff users are the only viable way to do trials

I put a little cross through all of the issues with your post(it barely shows up lol.) It is the amount of times you typed "I." The reality of the situation is that you are the only person that cares what you want. Other players shouldn't be expected to care what you want. Other players are only concerned with getting through the run, not carrying you because you are running a bad build because you want to.

Trials runs are about the group not about you. Your ultimate goal should be to help your group, not make them bow to what you want. Protest the state of stamina builds on the forums, but when you do trials runs bring a viable build. If running a viable build is that painful to you, just don't do trials until stamina is viable.

Muizer · September 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

I understand that. You can't just build ANY way and expect to be as optimal or even as viable as other builds.

My point is, going heavy armor and 2 hand in a game like this is supposed to be is hardly some weird unreasonable build to be viable. It's not like the guy, in DAoC terms, is a crossbow specced tank, or something. It's freaking 2 hand and heavy armor. Fantasy game archetypical, for Pete's sake.

Is there anything more to say, I wonder. This seems to be the key to a lot of discussions here. On the one hand you have people who argue: "given the game as it is, if you pick a poor build, then you need to learn to play and not blame Zenimax for your own poor choices". On the other hand you have people who argue: "To be a good game, archetypical builds should be viable, and Zenimax should fix that".

What is worrying is that by creating a very unbalanced game, Zenimax, by "natural selection" are allowing their players to drift towards a certain "optimal" build, roughly summarized as "stick and skirt". The longer that goes on, the more vocal the opposition from die hard veterans will become to anyone request for Zenimax to move the game towards something more in line with the archetypical Fantasy genre.

omfgitsbatman · February 2016

1. That leader is a baddie. You can do more than adequate dps using a 2h.
2. Play however you want solo... but if you're going to play in a group there are things you should do in order to not hinder the group. See below.
3. It is not zenimax's fault that you were kicked from the group. There are an insane amount of ways to do enough damage for AA/Hel Ra. If you did it in an intelligent way, you could even make heavy armor and a 2h work.

Things to do for group pve play:
1. Do your role and trust others to do theirs- If you are going to dps, then do damage. Trust the tank and healer to do their job until it's proven they can't. No need for spamming heals or wearing sword and board as a dps.
2. Don't skip steps- work your way up the ladder in difficulty. Do normal dungeons, then vet dungeons, then trials. If you have trouble in one step, repeat until you improve... speaking of:
3. Improve- Always get better. Learn more about the game mechanics. Ask for advice. Research on forums.
4. Play in a way that you have fun. If you want to run heavy armor and 2h, there are plenty of ways to make it work decent. But you can't afford to not research how you could be most effective while doing this.
5. Know your limitations- In heavy armor, you aren't going to be able to compete in sheer numbers with someone in light or medium with equal skill. That being said, if a fight is a dps race, that's not going to be something where your build is desired. If you run with 15k health and a boss does an unavoidable aoe that hits for 16k, you won't be desired.