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I erect the spine of disappointment.
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badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
By no means do I consider myself "leet" but I enjoy the difficulty. While I can't see a difficulty slider working great in this games setup, I support anything that lets us all be happy. If I can continue to face difficult content, while other people get their desires fulfilled, great!
I haven't seen many people arguing that there shouldn't be a middle ground, but this change they've described is no middle ground, we lose, you guys win.
The best thing I've heard was to add NPC companions which you can hire to bring with you. So people who felt the need could use that to lower the difficulty factor.
They could use npc companions as a difficulty slider. The more you higher the easier the content until you dismiss them that is. I think that's a great Idea.
Even better if you can personalize them with a name and give them armor and weapons to use. Then we don't have hundreds of Lydia's running around behind everyone, all looking the same.[DC/NA]1 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
Still, I do NOT think this is what will do it for them. When 2/3 of the game ends up being a boring face roll (which is WORSE than a grind) I think they will actually lose MORE customers in the long run.
But lets see if they really do nerf it to WoW status before overreacting prematurely.
You do not seem to understand business practice much.
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
Oh, I understand business a great deal better than you might think.
There are MANY factors that contribute to WoW's popularity, not the least of which being the diverse range of gaming gear it will run on. Heck, I can run WoW on my IMB Thinkpad from 2002!
Also, WoW has actually been hemorrhaging subscribers (down over 4 MILLION) since this last flop of an expansion.
#1 complaint:
"They made everything too easy."
You are missing my point, it is the same as the point you just made about wow...Clearly ZeniMax is getting their #1 complaint from lost subscribers is that it was too hard, hence the business decision to change. I never said I wanted it easier, I said that I dont blame them for making the what they think is the correct business decision for the company as a whole vs group of people that think, act and want to be treated as elite, and in the same breath are claiming to be the majority. By nature of the term elite, means you are the minority.
You are making a pretty big assumption there. In no way do I consider myself to be an "elite" player. I hardly ever did hard mode raids in other games, and I don't even do many of the veteran mode dungeons in this game. THOSE I can agree could stand to be re-tuned a little.
No, it really is that veteran content just isn't that freaking hard unless you want to play it as a sedative to unwind without putting out any effort at all to adapt or engage the content. I HATE that we have to constantly cater to this.
I understand what you are saying though, and that goes back to my theory about "panic mode." They are making a decision they THINK will be the right one, but it will backfire on them.
I have seen it before and ZOS should have done more research in psychology before they knee-jerked on this one, big time. Most of the complaints about difficulty are "mob think" related. They say that because they think that is what they are SUPPOSED to say.
People complain about what they think they are SUPPOSED to complain about whether they know what they are talking about or not. It is like how people assume that if you play a Sorcerer or a DK that you must be an exploiter with no skill, as if there were only one spec and way to play those classes or that it requires no skill to execute even whatever cookie cutter build they THINK they are exploiting.
ZOS is about to make a terrible, terrible business mistake with this one. About the WORST thing you can do in a business like this is start swinging the nerf bat around at the whim of mob think.
It is sort of like boxing your own shadow. There's really nothing there, and you just end up with bloody knuckles when you're dumb enough to punch the brick wall.Edited by Phinix1 on July 4, 2014 2:23AM5 -
brandon✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
Still, I do NOT think this is what will do it for them. When 2/3 of the game ends up being a boring face roll (which is WORSE than a grind) I think they will actually lose MORE customers in the long run.
But lets see if they really do nerf it to WoW status before overreacting prematurely.
You do not seem to understand business practice much.
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
Well the care bear customers may come back, but then they lose the real customers. The real customers are the majority here the ones they need to watch out for.
Is this indicative the "real" customers to which you refer? It's the image that comes to mind for those of us over 35, when we see posts like yours. Believe it or not, its quite likely that the "care bear" casual gamers of which you're so readily dismissive make up a significant portion of the player base.
Alienating them simply isn't good business practice for producers of an MMO advertising itself as "Play as you want."
IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
@Greysix
As surprising to you as it may be I wouldn't mind a difficulty slider. No that picture is not indicative at all. Me and a lot of "Leet" gamers as you put it don't want games nerfed because casuals choose not to put the time into it. Another surprising thing to you might be the fact that a lot of the "leet" gamers aren't fat basements dwellers most of us have a life outside of games.
Oh, I'm certain of it, but the arrogance dripping from the post to which I replied conjures such an image unbidden.
But to the topic, a slider would have answered the question for both the "elite" players and those just looking for amusement after a grinding day's work.
@Greysix
I didn't mean what I said in an arrogant way so I apologize for that. Yes a difficulty slider would solve this issue well, but that's not how ZOS is going about it. Look at it from the pov of the "leet" players they put in a lot of effort to get what they got, then the "casuals" who only play after work to relax show up and want the stuff weakened because they didn't put as much time into it. This is in no way meant as a jab at you in particular.4 -
brandon✭✭✭✭IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
By no means do I consider myself "leet" but I enjoy the difficulty. While I can't see a difficulty slider working great in this games setup, I support anything that lets us all be happy. If I can continue to face difficult content, while other people get their desires fulfilled, great!
I haven't seen many people arguing that there shouldn't be a middle ground, but this change they've described is no middle ground, we lose, you guys win.
The best thing I've heard was to add NPC companions which you can hire to bring with you. So people who felt the need could use that to lower the difficulty factor.
They could use npc companions as a difficulty slider. The more you higher the easier the content until you dismiss them that is. I think that's a great Idea.
Even better if you can personalize them with a name and give them armor and weapons to use. Then we don't have hundreds of Lydia's running around behind everyone, all looking the same.
That would be cool3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
well which is it? if its just a vocal minority as you stated earlier it can't simultaniously be the most popular complaint. most popular complaint would indicate the most numerous. If its the most numerous complaint which it has been for months now it can't be just a vocal minority can it....
Actually, you sort of made my point. Yes, it can be the vocal minority, and let me explain to you how this works.
Player A is having a great time. He's enjoying a balanced game, things are making him think, try new things, it isn't a boring faceroll like SO many other games that feel like Hello Kitty Island Adventure with swords...
Psychology 101 will show you this player will NOT take the time to make a forum post like "holy %$#* this game is great!" 9 times out of 10. Why? No time for that, enjoying the game! This is generally the majority of players.
Now, player B has some difficulty with a certain type of monster and immediately gives up without trying a different ability combination as the game intends. He feels he should be able to keep the same 5 abilities on his bar and use it against ALL content like every other MMO. Often he can't be bothered with mechanics like roll dodge or block or exploits, because he didn't have to do it in WoW.
Or maybe he just needs help with his build and isn't finding any relevant advise on the internet? Who knows.
Point is, pop psyche 101 will inform you again that this player will react emotionally and immediately rush to the forums or in-game support to make a negative post 9 times out of 10 as a FIRST resort. Why? HUMAN NATURE.
It is a simple psychological fact: More people complain than give praise.
So perhaps it is the most popular complaint, but that is a far cry from the most popular sentiment of the player base.
If I were a betting man, I would say this change will lose ZOS more subscribers than it gains them. Why? Because it will gut one of the things about this game that was truly unique and fun: the element of STRATEGY and ADAPTATION.
The majority of players that left, in every survey I have read and video I have watched, were due to bugs and bots. Quest breaking bugs, phasing bugs, progression blocking bugs, many of which have been fixed but sadly many didn't stick around past the trial sub to see.
This change is a desperation move plain and simple, and it WILL backfire, mark my words.
I hate most mmo players for this reason. Everything needs to die in 1 hit for them to have fun. Then they complain about something else which also gets nerfed over and over again. Finally they leave anyway leaving everyone else with a nerfed to hell game to play. They then go and do it to another game.
Ah. Not all mmo players. Those kind are a definitive breed carved from recent virtual worlds over the last few years.
Time was in other outstanding MMOs: figuring out stuff was expected and respected, going to look for a 'guide' may not have been thought of as 'cheating' but was looked down upon, and playing MMO's which had content that did not legally force you to group, but literally had some content that disallowed success via the very mechanics of said game and was revered for it.
As so many others have mused on gaming forums, if only I could win a lottery, I'd recruit the best tech and the most enthusiastic veteran MMO devs. We would take the best parts of those old school games and add unique features making a really fabulous 21st century MMO set in a world immersive, filled with fun and with risk.
Oh. Thats what the TESO which launched just over three months ago was. Back to hoping for a lottery win or even better: that Zeni continues to make small changes as they have thus far, and that the newly announced plans for Vet content will also be incremental and measured. Hoping.
Edited by Anastasia on July 4, 2014 2:23AM5 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh. Thats what the TESO which launched just over three months ago was. Back to hoping for a lottery win or even better: that Zeni continues to make small changes as they have thus far, and that the newly announced plans for Vet content will also be incremental and measured. Hoping.
*waves the hoodoo hands of quantum probability*
When you hit the lotto hire me, I have some great ideas!
Edited by Phinix1 on July 4, 2014 2:28AM2 -
Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
Still, I do NOT think this is what will do it for them. When 2/3 of the game ends up being a boring face roll (which is WORSE than a grind) I think they will actually lose MORE customers in the long run.
But lets see if they really do nerf it to WoW status before overreacting prematurely.
You do not seem to understand business practice much.
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
Well the care bear customers may come back, but then they lose the real customers. The real customers are the majority here the ones they need to watch out for.
Carebears are people that don't like PvP and just play the game to PvE. This discussion is all about changes to PvE. Just because someone wants PvE to be difficult doesn't mean they are a real player and the one that wants to get it over quickly so they can be max for PvP is a carebear. I think you've mixed up your attempt to be pejorative.
@Enkil
I play pvp and pve. I am tired of people wanting things to be easy because they want to get to pvp. Players who rush to endgame so they can pvp and want pve to be easy are a plague on mmos. They tend to forget that this is an mmoRPG. Players who only pvp are the true care bears.
Lol...
@Enkil
Is that supposed to be an insult? If so grow up.
Are you for real dude? You call people a plague on mmos, people that only PvP carebears, characterize yourself and some select group as "real players" and I need to grow up for laughing? Wtf7 -
brandon✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
Still, I do NOT think this is what will do it for them. When 2/3 of the game ends up being a boring face roll (which is WORSE than a grind) I think they will actually lose MORE customers in the long run.
But lets see if they really do nerf it to WoW status before overreacting prematurely.
You do not seem to understand business practice much.
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
Well the care bear customers may come back, but then they lose the real customers. The real customers are the majority here the ones they need to watch out for.
Carebears are people that don't like PvP and just play the game to PvE. This discussion is all about changes to PvE. Just because someone wants PvE to be difficult doesn't mean they are a real player and the one that wants to get it over quickly so they can be max for PvP is a carebear. I think you've mixed up your attempt to be pejorative.
@Enkil
I play pvp and pve. I am tired of people wanting things to be easy because they want to get to pvp. Players who rush to endgame so they can pvp and want pve to be easy are a plague on mmos. They tend to forget that this is an mmoRPG. Players who only pvp are the true care bears.
Lol...
@Enkil
Is that supposed to be an insult? If so grow up.
Are you for real dude? You call people a plague on mmos, people that only PvP carebears, characterize yourself and some select group as "real players" and I need to grow up for laughing? Wtf
@Enkil
Well considering most not all players who rush to endgame are pvp players. Then they complain about not having anything to do. I called pvp only players care bears because everything needs to be easy for them until they hit lvl cap so they can pvp. The real players I mentioned are the ones who put the time and effort into playing the game and didn't need everything handed to them.4 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
well which is it? if its just a vocal minority as you stated earlier it can't simultaniously be the most popular complaint. most popular complaint would indicate the most numerous. If its the most numerous complaint which it has been for months now it can't be just a vocal minority can it....
Actually, you sort of made my point. Yes, it can be the vocal minority, and let me explain to you how this works.
Player A is having a great time. He's enjoying a balanced game, things are making him think, try new things, it isn't a boring faceroll like SO many other games that feel like Hello Kitty Island Adventure with swords...
Psychology 101 will show you this player will NOT take the time to make a forum post like "holy %$#* this game is great!" 9 times out of 10. Why? No time for that, enjoying the game! This is generally the majority of players.
Now, player B has some difficulty with a certain type of monster and immediately gives up without trying a different ability combination as the game intends. He feels he should be able to keep the same 5 abilities on his bar and use it against ALL content like every other MMO. Often he can't be bothered with mechanics like roll dodge or block or exploits, because he didn't have to do it in WoW.
Or maybe he just needs help with his build and isn't finding any relevant advise on the internet? Who knows.
Point is, pop psyche 101 will inform you again that this player will react emotionally and immediately rush to the forums or in-game support to make a negative post 9 times out of 10 as a FIRST resort. Why? HUMAN NATURE.
It is a simple psychological fact: More people complain than give praise.
So perhaps it is the most popular complaint, but that is a far cry from the most popular sentiment of the player base.
If I were a betting man, I would say this change will lose ZOS more subscribers than it gains them. Why? Because it will gut one of the things about this game that was truly unique and fun: the element of STRATEGY and ADAPTATION.
The majority of players that left, in every survey I have read and video I have watched, were due to bugs and bots. Quest breaking bugs, phasing bugs, progression blocking bugs, many of which have been fixed but sadly many didn't stick around past the trial sub to see.
This change is a desperation move plain and simple, and it WILL backfire, mark my words.
I hate most mmo players for this reason. Everything needs to die in 1 hit for them to have fun. Then they complain about something else which also gets nerfed over and over again. Finally they leave anyway leaving everyone else with a nerfed to hell game to play. They then go and do it to another game.
Ah. Not all mmo players. Those kind are a definitive breed carved from recent virtual worlds over the last few years.
Time was in other outstanding MMOs: figuring out stuff was expected and respected, going to look for a 'guide' may not have been thought of as 'cheating' but was looked down upon, and playing MMO's which had content that did not legally force you to group, but literally had some content that disallowed success via the very mechanics of said game and was revered for it.
As so many others have mused on gaming forums, if only I could win a lottery, I'd recruit the best tech and the most enthusiastic veteran MMO devs. We would take the best parts of those old school games and add unique features making a really fabulous 21st century MMO set in a world immersive, filled with fun and with risk.
Oh. Thats what the TESO which launched just over three months ago was. Back to hoping for a lottery win or even better: that Zeni continues to make small changes as they have thus far, and that the newly announced plans for Vet content will also be incremental and measured. Hoping.
yeah, everyone is afraid to make that game. It is all FTP cartoons now.
I wish pre-SOE buyout Vanguard hadn't run out of money. That was the last time anyone tried to make anything even remotely old school. Even the crafting took skill.
The funny part is... if they made a new subscription based "hard" game with western art. I know tons of people that would play it (mostly over 35). Every publisher wants to have WoW and won't give money to devs to make that game for the ~ 500-750k (probably not more than a mil and a 1/2) people they would get.
It is fun to watch the EQ Next videos... with all the younger devs touting the fluffy... and the few older guys are like "kill them all and set fire to their bodies so they need new gear... because we put a raid boss in the middle of player housing!" The fluffy is going to win with funny cartoon hats in the F2P store for $3 each. Which is a shame because a lot of the backend tech of EQ Next looks great.3 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Everything must be easy mode."
WoW and ESO aren't the only ones making this mistake.
From a business standpoint they are probably trying to cater to the most possible people, however the bean counters should really do their homework before signing off on broad sweeping changes to the core mechanics of a game.
Most games that are in decline list the top reason as "they made things too easy."
2 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
By no means do I consider myself "leet" but I enjoy the difficulty. While I can't see a difficulty slider working great in this games setup, I support anything that lets us all be happy. If I can continue to face difficult content, while other people get their desires fulfilled, great!
I haven't seen many people arguing that there shouldn't be a middle ground, but this change they've described is no middle ground, we lose, you guys win.
The best thing I've heard was to add NPC companions which you can hire to bring with you. So people who felt the need could use that to lower the difficulty factor.
They could use npc companions as a difficulty slider. The more you higher the easier the content until you dismiss them that is. I think that's a great Idea.
Even better if you can personalize them with a name and give them armor and weapons to use. Then we don't have hundreds of Lydia's running around behind everyone, all looking the same.
So now we are talking npc mercenaries for hire/accompanying us? Wouldn't that almost *gasp* be like GROUPING UP????
Anyhow, theres another (*one or two or more) franchises that already do that; nothing particularly fresh about the idea of mercs and seriously plenty of negatives based on the last game I played with those implemented.
1 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »yeah, everyone is afraid to make that game. It is all FTP cartoons now.
Want to be thoroughly challenged and severely punished for failure in a game.
Try Eve Online, where you can lose thousands of real dollars in defeat.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"4 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
By no means do I consider myself "leet" but I enjoy the difficulty. While I can't see a difficulty slider working great in this games setup, I support anything that lets us all be happy. If I can continue to face difficult content, while other people get their desires fulfilled, great!
I haven't seen many people arguing that there shouldn't be a middle ground, but this change they've described is no middle ground, we lose, you guys win.
The best thing I've heard was to add NPC companions which you can hire to bring with you. So people who felt the need could use that to lower the difficulty factor.
They could use npc companions as a difficulty slider. The more you higher the easier the content until you dismiss them that is. I think that's a great Idea.
Even better if you can personalize them with a name and give them armor and weapons to use. Then we don't have hundreds of Lydia's running around behind everyone, all looking the same.
So now we are talking npc mercenaries for hire/accompanying us? Wouldn't that almost *gasp* be like GROUPING UP????
I think you may have just had an epiphany. Lightning flashes, your eyes open, and suddenly, EVERYTHING makes sense!
The psychological implications of why people refuse to group for anything strikes at the core of some deeply troubling trends in our society.
But that is a discussion for another forum!Edited by Phinix1 on July 4, 2014 2:56AM5 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »yeah, everyone is afraid to make that game. It is all FTP cartoons now.
Want to be thoroughly challenged and severely punished for failure in a game.
Try Eve Online, where you can lose thousands of real dollars in defeat.
I've tried it on and off.. not twitchy enough for me.. Feels like I'm playing Excel 2003. Always feels more like a business sim than character based MMO3 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am feeling very betrayed by this announcement. This honestly has ruined my entire weekend.
I finally have a game that breaks the mold of grindy cartoon digital sedatives and now I come to find they want to ruin it for what? Because some overpaid suit thinks it will win them more subscribers?
This is the worst ESO news I have heard since I was passed over for the first half-dozen betas.
I'm going to put the forums down now before I get myself too depressed. I will just wait until monday and like others have said, hope for the best.Edited by Phinix1 on July 4, 2014 3:04AM9 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The interesting thing is that on other forums I visit I see posts from players saying that with these new changes to VR zones, they want to return to the game and re-sub.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
0.016%4 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Man I wish I could sincerely repeat all the stuff you same people were spouting whenever someone raised a concern or unsubbed because of the difficulty.
Things like:
"L2p."
"Adapt or leave."
"Buh bye."
"Can I have your stuff?"
"ZoS has the numbers and the numbers say vet content is fine, so deal with it."
"I don't care if 40% dislike VR content, forum polls mean nothing."
"Oh the tears are delicious!"
"QQ more noob"
Hmm... my my how the times have changed.
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Catches_the_Sun✭✭✭✭✭While your opinion is important, I'm glad they took in a wide array of opinions and got a feel for what the majority of players want. It's too bad there isn't a difficulty slider like in single player games to allow the tailoring of difficulty to each player.
To be fair, how do you know that they understand what the majority of the players want? Did you participate in a poll where your voice was heard on this issue? I know that I did not.
Catches-the-Sun - Argonian Templar - Master Smith, Provisioner, Chemist & Tailor
Valaren Arobone - Dunmer Flamewalker - Master Woodworker, Provisioner, Assassin
Kazahad - Khajiiti Arcane Archer - Master Thief
V'orkten - Redguard Swordmaster
Finnvardr the Frenzied - Werewolf Berzerker4 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭I completely agree with everything said in this post. Plus it is made by an argonian + 500 awesomes.
what can only give one? one then.
The stick was fine the carrot sucked - now nobody will know how to play.6 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭I completely agree with everything said in this post. Plus it is made by an argonian + 500 awesomes.
what can only give one? one then.
The stick was fine the carrot sucked - now nobody will know how to play.
They don't know how to play now. They Volcanic runed resto/destroed in their robes and bunny slippers in craiglorn grind groups anyway. The number of people currently bothering to VR doesn't seem to be eve close to the grinders.
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Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭jelliedsoup wrote: »The slider is what class you pick. Dk with standard, dragon blood and talons is easy as you don't need to move and only need to press 3 buttons.
yes and i,m willing to bet all the heroes who are now moaning it,ll be too easy for them picked easy mode for themselves right out the bag. by playing Dk/sorc and using the most OP builds...
NB Medium Armor DW/Bow
Sorry to burst your little bubble.4 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭jelliedsoup wrote: »The slider is what class you pick. Dk with standard, dragon blood and talons is easy as you don't need to move and only need to press 3 buttons.
yes and i,m willing to bet all the heroes who are now moaning it,ll be too easy for them picked easy mode for themselves right out the bag. by playing Dk/sorc and using the most OP builds...
NB Medium Armor DW/Bow
Sorry to burst your little bubble.
Likewise. In fact, atm, I'm running around levelling skills because I can't be bothered loading in a levelling bar at quest time. So I have a nerfed layout and I'm doing fine. It makes it more interesting having blur (don't ask me why I'm levelling that POS) and elude on the same bar. Dodgy McDodgepants (works a bit).
And I'm crap. The only thing I do that the people who give up don't: block and dodge. If they have to make it easy enough that block and dodge are never required they may as well remove VR zones all together and have a flower-picking zone, with no hostile NPCs, where you level from VR1-12 based on how many flowers you pick each hour. Bonus XP for wearing them in your hair.
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭phunkeymonkehb16_ESO wrote: »With the risk of sounding like a L2P'er, which honestly isn't my intent, I have to agree.
I found the balance just right. Quests, solo dungeons etc were easily do-able solo.
With the exception of a few dungeons (the ones with gargoyles/Trolls in them were a challenge in Vet areas)
Dolmens and world bosses required me to either ask for help in the chat, or wait around until someone showed up..which is how they should be.
That said, me and one friend have duo'd the entire veteran content , dolmens and world bosses on 2nd characters.
I understand maybe I am the minority. My main concern is people not learning mechanics for later on in the game.
The amount of time we have picked up random players to run a dungeon who are v10-v12 rank but don't even know how to interrupt because they boosted in Craglorn worries me.
Veteran content forced me to learn and utilise these mechanics, with the challenge removed I wonder what will happen.
At least the changes may get them back from craglorn to vet zone, vet zone still has more variable bosses, which had better chance to get players to learn blocks, interrupts, dodges and others than craglorn farming.
I never felt the vet zone "difficult", I went through all 9 zones main quest at v5, I'm now v7, all dolmen, wb farming. I left v10 zone untouched, since I don't want to run out of things to do.
I'm on the fence of the change over all, since craglorn already cheapened the vr, I don't see the harm of making at least v1 to 5 easier.Edited by crislevin on July 4, 2014 11:58AM2 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I should have made this a poll. More people that I have talked to are upset by this lazy man's solution to jeopardize the quality of veteran content to suit some anonymous "vocal minority" than are actually defending it.
Who ARE these vocal minority anyway, and will they really make up the subscriber numbers combined with those they will lose if they over-nerf?
O.o
I suppose only time will tell, but this will be a very easy change to over-do being that so many seem to agree that doing it at all was too far.
I really hope this is done as a BALANCING step now a "nerf it all" hamfisted content nerf. Like take on specific mobs (storm atronach, gargoyle, etc.) or make certain abilities hit for a LITTLE less...
if it was a vocal minority you can bet they wouldnt be changing anything... I think the jury is in and it is YOU who is the vocal minority. cos if you wern't they would change nothing. The fact they are is pretty much conclusive that ZOS have done the math and decided this will please many more than it will annoy.
Actually, I think this may be something completely different.
I think the company is in "panic mode" for losing so many subscribers before they recouped enough of their investment, and they are scrambling to latch onto the most popular complaints to try and win back some numbers. That is just a theory.
Still, I do NOT think this is what will do it for them. When 2/3 of the game ends up being a boring face roll (which is WORSE than a grind) I think they will actually lose MORE customers in the long run.
But lets see if they really do nerf it to WoW status before overreacting prematurely.
You do not seem to understand business practice much.
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
Well the care bear customers may come back, but then they lose the real customers. The real customers are the majority here the ones they need to watch out for.
Is this indicative the "real" customers to which you refer? It's the image that comes to mind for those of us over 35, when we see posts like yours. Believe it or not, its quite likely that the "care bear" casual gamers of which you're so readily dismissive make up a significant portion of the player base.
Alienating them simply isn't good business practice for producers of an MMO advertising itself as "Play as you want."
IMO, the developers would have been better off making a difficulty slider, as we saw in the last few TES releases. But I know, I know - the epeens of the "leet" gamers would then be threatened to see "care bears" in their neck of the woods.
@Greysix
As surprising to you as it may be I wouldn't mind a difficulty slider. No that picture is not indicative at all. Me and a lot of "Leet" gamers as you put it don't want games nerfed because casuals choose not to put the time into it. Another surprising thing to you might be the fact that a lot of the "leet" gamers aren't fat basements dwellers most of us have a life outside of games.
Oh, I'm certain of it, but the arrogance dripping from the post to which I replied conjures such an image unbidden.
But to the topic, a slider would have answered the question for both the "elite" players and those just looking for amusement after a grinding day's work.
@Greysix
I didn't mean what I said in an arrogant way so I apologize for that. Yes a difficulty slider would solve this issue well, but that's not how ZOS is going about it. Look at it from the pov of the "leet" players they put in a lot of effort to get what they got, then the "casuals" who only play after work to relax show up and want the stuff weakened because they didn't put as much time into it. This is in no way meant as a jab at you in particular.
what you describe is an emotion called jealousy. it makes no diffrence to you if you already done it. even if it was tougher. what is upsetting you is that others might now have to do it but not as hard. That is you being jealous..
its a horrible emotion and never something to endulge or use as justification for anything
Edited by hamon on July 4, 2014 12:01PM6 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »
When it goes live and you hate it, great, that's cool. At least you (or they) are hating something they've actually tried. Preemptive hate is a little ridiculous, though.
Yeah like a few I could mention that were waving the "vet is too difficult" flag on here BEFORE your even reached vet content.1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
perhaps if your old and mature like you say you would consider that before calling folk braindead and whiney simply cos they didnt roll ez-mode classes
This is old news. Sorcs are no longer easy mode. At least not in comparison to the other classes. My NB is at least on a par with the sorc now. The Sorc took some very subtle nerfs that had a very big effect.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
As much as I want this game to remain unique and not become a wow clone...if ZeniMax had a shot at even being 20% as successful as wow still is, they would take that in a heart beat, even if that means they shift to make the game more like a wow clone. And I wouldn't blame them. Wow still has what? 6 to 8 million subscribers? That is like 90 million or more at 15 a month. Even at 20%, that is around 15 million reasons a month to cater to what you call "care bears". In the business world we refer to them as the customer.
This is only true while the market for easy content is not already saturated, which it is.
Games Like Dark Souls managed to calve a niche by offering something rarely found.
ZOS could have done the same by not competing with the likes of WoW but by offering something a little less common. An MMO with a challenge.
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
perhaps if your old and mature like you say you would consider that before calling folk braindead and whiney simply cos they didnt roll ez-mode classes
This is old news. Sorcs are no longer easy mode. At least not in comparison to the other classes. My NB is at least on a par with the sorc now. The Sorc took some very subtle nerfs that had a very big effect.
if there is some subtle nerf, its another example of the patch note failure.1 -
Swampster✭✭✭I'd just like to point out that those ranting about these changes being enacted because of the "vocal minority of whingers and whiners" etc etc are frankly talking out their rear crevices!
Do you really think ZoS has no other metrics on which to base their decisions other than you lot all spouting opposing [snip] at each other on these forums?
Do you think they can't see the number of abandoned characters vs the number who plough through the content?
Do you really think they haven't correlatted the numbers getting to VRx and quitting, unsubbing, rerolling etc?
Do you really think they haven't looked at the numbers of people in various builds and seen how the difficulty spikes affect them?
Do you really think they haven't noticed how many people are circumventing the VR content by running Craglorn over and over?
Do you really think they actually don't take note of the feeback given to them by their former customers who HAVE already unsubbed, crunched the numbers and seen patterns emerging?
Get real people! Whatever crap is spouted on here by the 'casuals' vs 'elites' has a miniscule if any impact at all on their decision making.
They've looked at their data.. and said 'oh [snip]' something is wrong here, and we need to do something about it.. simple as.
OK.. I'll concede they might have also said.. 'oh look there's one or two people ranting about those same issues on the forum too'...
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]
Edited by ZOS_LeroyW on July 4, 2014 7:46PMSwampriel - Nightblade (Archer Build) - Ebonheart Pact - Veteran
Swampess - DragonKnight - Eboheart Pact - Lowbie Faceroller4
