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Improvements for Stamina-Based Skills and Passives
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »And Heavy Armor????????????
Good luck, I dont think Zos can fix that one with out pissing off all the Dress wearing instant gratification community. If they change mitigation so Armor means something in this game the people who play tanks would love them.3 -
Blinks✭✭✭So what you're saying is the Hundings Rage set its worthless and taking Crit over it would be more beneficial?ESO, "play your way", As long as its light armor and staff
v14 DK (Re-rolled to NB, because DK is easy-mode)
v12 Duel Wield Khajiit NightBlade (Re-rolled again to play ranged DPS) Snipe spam
Main v9 Bosmer NB Archer (Can't hit v14 due to ZOS screwing with XP)0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »Going back to heavy armor, a few people say the reductions on armor should be light - magicka, medium - stamina, heavy - health, but that will in no way hold true because every armor has health loss reduction when being hit by something. Light armor has more health reduction vs spell damage while heavy has more health reduction vs physical damage, and medium is balanced and lower than both of them, but its focus is stealth and evasion for survival. They would have to remove all spell resist and armor from other armor types for this to become truth.
When I look at the armors and think about what they do or should do, I see
light = spell mitigation, spell damage.
Med = Stealth, evasion, crit
Heavy = physical mitigation, physical damage
Light armors increased spell damage currently comes from spell penetration. Heavys increased physical damage currently comes from the weak increase to weapon damage. Light armors penetration for spells is far better than heavy armors increase to weapon damage. Medium armors increased weapon crit is far better than heavy armors increased weapon damage. Crits do 50% more damage, more with the correct mundas stone. the 7% increased weapon damage you get from jugg doesn't even make weapon abilities do 7% more damage, becuse its only increasing your weapon damage. This is also what makes the hundings rage set horrible, and that one gets past 20% weapon damage when using weapon abilities.
I'll also repeat that heavy armor too needs an actual cost reduction, and health is not an answer.
Unfortuantely that is not how it works at all. what your saying makes sense but its not how it works in ESO. Armor means very little. The armor cap is the same whether you wear light or heavy. you can reach the armor cap in all three armors very very easy. you can have as much armor in light as a Plate wearer. Both will mitigate the same amount of damage as long as your at armor cap. the truth is people have posted videos of them doing content naked and in heavy the amount of damage mitigated was negligable, were talking like 12 points more mitigated in heavy as opposed to naked on a VR mobs white hit. it should have never gotten out of beta like that. Spell resistance will only resist spells damage, it will not do anything for Caster Fire,disease,lightning,or poison . those all have resistance so additional damage from elements on spells are not resisted.
Where most of damage mitigation comes from is blocking, I might add dual wield is completely busted in this reguard many mobs will ignore your block with dual wield for what ever reason. SNS performs better then most so its the only benefit of this weapon build.And staves actually work very well for blocking LOL imagine that, ZOS really like staves and Cloth.1 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »Going back to heavy armor, a few people say the reductions on armor should be light - magicka, medium - stamina, heavy - health, but that will in no way hold true because every armor has health loss reduction when being hit by something. Light armor has more health reduction vs spell damage while heavy has more health reduction vs physical damage, and medium is balanced and lower than both of them, but its focus is stealth and evasion for survival. They would have to remove all spell resist and armor from other armor types for this to become truth.
When I look at the armors and think about what they do or should do, I see
light = spell mitigation, spell damage.
Med = Stealth, evasion, crit
Heavy = physical mitigation, physical damage
Light armors increased spell damage currently comes from spell penetration. Heavys increased physical damage currently comes from the weak increase to weapon damage. Light armors penetration for spells is far better than heavy armors increase to weapon damage. Medium armors increased weapon crit is far better than heavy armors increased weapon damage. Crits do 50% more damage, more with the correct mundas stone. the 7% increased weapon damage you get from jugg doesn't even make weapon abilities do 7% more damage, becuse its only increasing your weapon damage. This is also what makes the hundings rage set horrible, and that one gets past 20% weapon damage when using weapon abilities.
I'll also repeat that heavy armor too needs an actual cost reduction, and health is not an answer.
Unfortuantely that is not how it works at all. what your saying makes sense but its not how it works in ESO. Armor means very little. The armor cap is the same whether you wear light or heavy. you can reach the armor cap in all three armors very very easy. you can have as much armor in light as a Plate wearer. Both will mitigate the same amount of damage as long as your at armor cap. the truth is people have posted videos of them doing content naked and in heavy the amount of damage mitigated was negligable, were talking like 12 points more mitigated in heavy as opposed to naked on a VR mobs white hit. it should have never gotten out of beta like that. Spell resistance will only resist spells damage, it will not do anything for Caster Fire,disease,lightning,or poison . those all have resistance so additional damage from elements on spells are not resisted.
Where most of damage mitigation comes from is blocking, I might add dual wield is completely busted in this reguard many mobs will ignore your block with dual wield for what ever reason. SNS performs better then most so its the only benefit of this weapon build.And staves actually work very well for blocking LOL imagine that, ZOS really like staves and Cloth.
These are just things they need to fix in order for thing to fall in line. Spell resist should be resisting spells damage no matter the element, and specific elemental resist add onto it for specific element. This is why specific elemental resist increase values are always higher than general spell resist values. I too already know how crap armor mitigation is since I too easily run through dungeons with my heavy armor all below 30% to completely broken. Makes it a waste of money worrying about repairing it since I can do the dungeon either way.
I believe its been mentioned that VR NPC's have spell and armor pen as well. There might be more difference if you test damage vs another player naked and armored.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on June 23, 2014 2:43PM0 -
Armann✭✭✭Why Poison Arrow and not Volley buff? People are just gonna spam Poison Arrow anyway so the DoT won't make a huge impact.
Volley is terrible, My Sorcerer Archer uses both Volley and Lighting Splash and looking at each of those abilites cost and damage it's clear Volley should recieve at least a 50% damage increase including the lingering damage from the Scorched Earth morph, adding +1 radius to base and both morphs wouldn't hurt either.
At least do something to improve Volley, please.EU megaserver | XboxNord Nightblade | Ebonheart PactImperial Dragonknight | Ebonheart PactDunmer Sorcerer | Ebonheart PactDunmer Warden | Ebonheart PactOrc Necromancer | Daggerfall CovenantAltmer Templar | Aldmeri Dominion4 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭The problem I have with that thing on the Ultimates is that they should make Class Specific Stamina Based Ultimates if they are not going to make stamina help them. It would be very pointless to make Ultimates for stamina based moves if everyone has a general ultimate they can use. It would be awesome to see class specific Stamina based ultimates to fuel UNIQUENESS in the builds.
The issue at the moment is that I am exploiting the crap out of magic because of how OP they have made it in the game. People want magic to be OP, then I will farm the crap out of the game until my wallet explodes with cash.Edited by Paladin_echo1 on June 23, 2014 4:40PM0 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭Why Poison Arrow and not Volley buff? People are just gonna spam Poison Arrow anyway so the DoT won't make a huge impact.
Volley is terrible, My Sorcerer Archer uses both Volley and Lighting Splash and looking at each of those abilites cost and damage it's clear Volley should recieve at least a 50% damage increase including the lingering damage from the Scorched Earth morph, adding +1 radius to base and both morphs wouldn't hurt either.
At least do something to improve Volley, please.
I am in full support of this. Volley and almost ALL bow skills need to be upgraded. And also if you aren't stamina based, they need to penalize the crap out of all the skills so you don't have people being the best of both worlds unless they put something into it.1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭I was thinking maybe so Stamina based builds can be slightly different they can cause Ultimates to happen more often while being weaker.Edited by Shaun98ca2 on June 23, 2014 4:53PM0
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Lyall84✭✭✭✭Quickest and most logical sense to me is to make Ultimate abilities scale off either highest of stamina/magicka, or average of stamina/magicka. The only issue I have with the average route though would be that everyone would have more or less equal ultimate damage unless you stacked pure health, then your ultimate would be weaker. So my vote would be have it scale off the higher of the two.
Edit, or add weapon skill ultimate abilities.Edited by Lyall84 on June 23, 2014 4:57PM1 -
david.haypreub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fixing a few skills and passives won't fix the underlying reasons why magicka builds are better than stamina builds. You need a fix that addresses the following problems:
--Magicka is easier to replenish than Stamina (e.g. resto staff).
--Magicka charges most ultimates, but there are no weapon line ultimates.
--There are far more magicka-based skills than there are Stamina-based skills.
--There are weapons that key off Magicka but no class skills that key off Stamina.
The inferiority of Stamina builds has been seen by a lot of people since beta: in designing the game, the developers simply put too much emphasis on magicka over stamina, and hence the playing board has been slanted from the start in favour of magicka builds. It is a systemic problem that is not going to be solved by tweaking some individual skills and passives. There needs to be a more fundamental solution/solutions. I think the one poster's suggestion of making ultimates charge off of stamina as well as magicka is the sort of thing which might move the ball in the right direction. But it is going to be a difficult task.Edited by david.haypreub18_ESO on June 23, 2014 5:05PMTemplars are 'just slower... by design'
Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
VR 16 Templar (retired until Templars get fixed)
VR 16 Sorcerer
38 Nightblade
24 DK4 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.0 -
kewl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nothing about nerfing stick and skirts? No fixes to why heavy armor is absolutely useless? You guys are useless, zenimax
First note, "Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives." So what's listed is a sample of the overall changes.
Second, They've pointed out, on many occasions, that balancing will be done done at a deliberately slow pace. In order to avoid big swings to either end of the spectrum. We should all support this philosophy.
Third, calling for nerfs is really shortsighted. The other skills should be brought up to the level of Light Armor and Staves, not the other way around. Or, as others have suggested, stamina should be a resource for skills only, just like magicka.1 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nothing about nerfing stick and skirts? No fixes to why heavy armor is absolutely useless? You guys are useless, zenimax
First note, "Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives." So what's listed is a sample of the overall changes.
Second, They've pointed out, on many occasions, that balancing will be done done at a deliberately slow pace. In order to avoid big swings to either end of the spectrum. We should all support this philosophy.
Third, calling for nerfs is really shortsighted. The other skills should be brought up to the level of Light Armor and Staves, not the other way around. Or, as others have suggested, stamina should be a resource for skills only, just like magicka.
They didnt nerf dks and tanks at a slow pace, we got nuked hard and often2 -
kewl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nothing about nerfing stick and skirts? No fixes to why heavy armor is absolutely useless? You guys are useless, zenimax
First note, "Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives." So what's listed is a sample of the overall changes.
Second, They've pointed out, on many occasions, that balancing will be done done at a deliberately slow pace. In order to avoid big swings to either end of the spectrum. We should all support this philosophy.
Third, calling for nerfs is really shortsighted. The other skills should be brought up to the level of Light Armor and Staves, not the other way around. Or, as others have suggested, stamina should be a resource for skills only, just like magicka.
They didnt nerf dks and tanks at a slow pace, we got nuked hard and often
My main is a stamina focused, DK, Tank. I feel the tweaking they did to our class was fair and fully justified. So we have to agree to disagree.Edited by kewl on June 23, 2014 5:20PM2 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Nothing about nerfing stick and skirts? No fixes to why heavy armor is absolutely useless? You guys are useless, zenimax
First note, "Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives." So what's listed is a sample of the overall changes.
Second, They've pointed out, on many occasions, that balancing will be done done at a deliberately slow pace. In order to avoid big swings to either end of the spectrum. We should all support this philosophy.
Third, calling for nerfs is really shortsighted. The other skills should be brought up to the level of Light Armor and Staves, not the other way around. Or, as others have suggested, stamina should be a resource for skills only, just like magicka.
They didnt nerf dks and tanks at a slow pace, we got nuked hard and often
My main is a stamina focused, DK, Tank. I feel the tweaking they did to our class was fair and fully justified. So we have to agree to disagree.
I fully agree you are wrong.3 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.2 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭And its broken because it increases weapon damage when you use a weapon ability, NOT the actual ability damage. Weapon damage is a very small modification to weapon ability damage. For instance, without hundings rage, my uppercut hits for 529, With hundings rage, my uppercut hits for 553. Somewhere around those numbers. That is not 21%, that is garbage, and the up to 7% weapon damage from heavy armor and immobile brute are even garbagier garbage.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on June 23, 2014 6:42PM3
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Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
All Ive been hearing out of you since the bash nerf is kvetching that your dps is trash.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
People who dont tank have no idea . Playing dps on my sorc while nothing is cc or blocked makes me cringe i spend more tme bubbling and rune then dpsing0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o
WoW had a class designed entirely around dodge for tanking.
Bear druids.
They ended up adding a debuff to a raid that reduced dodge chance because upping the hits wasnt enough. Bosses were hitting almost hard enough to one shot.
Bears cant block and Im unsure if they can parry(warrior/dk tank... warrior is a block tank and dk a parry/absorb tank), so they redesigned it to be a literal meat shield. Savage Defense now absorbs damage and they have high armor/hp so they can just eat the damage instead.
Dodge tanking is also annoying because if rng hates you and you dont dodge anytbing but really need to, youre getting flattened. And its always your fault. Remember that.
I like the active blocking here, but armor... might as well not be wearing any.1 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
All Ive been hearing out of you since the bash nerf is kvetching that your dps is trash.
You need to go through my posts again, ya bitching about talons being broken has everything to do with dps. Or the nerf magma armor, ya thats over dps as well. Or that when they nerfed bash, shield and hvy armor dont seem to block mitigate anything. Yes all about dps. Im glad you are happy with your stick and skirt fotm dk, but news flash many dont play fotm.Edited by Ragnar_Lodbrok on June 23, 2014 7:01PM1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
People who dont tank have no idea . Playing dps on my sorc while nothing is cc or blocked makes me cringe i spend more tme bubbling and rune then dpsing
Except that Ive probably been tanking longer than quite a few in here.0 -
kewl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.Edited by kewl on June 23, 2014 7:12PM3 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
All Ive been hearing out of you since the bash nerf is kvetching that your dps is trash.
You need to go through my posts again, ya bitching about talons being broken has everything to do with dps. Or the nerf magma armor, ya thats over dps as well. Or that when they nerfed bash, shield and hvy armor dont seem to block mitigate anything. Yes all about dps. Im glad you are happy with your stick and skirt fotm dk, but news flash many dont play fotm.
Scuse me?
My dks's 1h/s and dw heavy armor, thank you very much.
In fact, Im pretty sure I mentioned that in this thread. The one you keep meglecting to read properly.1 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
All Ive been hearing out of you since the bash nerf is kvetching that your dps is trash.
You need to go through my posts again, ya bitching about talons being broken has everything to do with dps. Or the nerf magma armor, ya thats over dps as well. Or that when they nerfed bash, shield and hvy armor dont seem to block mitigate anything. Yes all about dps. Im glad you are happy with your stick and skirt fotm dk, but news flash many dont play fotm.
Scuse me?
My dks's 1h/s and dw heavy armor, thank you very much.
In fact, Im pretty sure I mentioned that in this thread. The one you keep meglecting to read properly.
Yes yes you think dk tanks are op, you are one of a handful of fools. But keep blindly defending it, as we all can see how empty the server is now.1