Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

I refuse to move to a stamina build until the class Ultimates start to be effected by charging the stamina. Its all pretty cool, but this is a severe problem. I am currently flying all over the map with one of the Ultimates charged up on magic and it just destroys everything and charges super fast. If they could do this, I would be on board with switching my build back to stamina. As far as right now goes, I'm going to aim for 2 million gold before the next patch since magic is so OP atm. Its going super fast atm...

Eivar wrote: »

I just posted this in another thread and thought it would suit this thread as well:

Eivar wrote: »

The problem with stamina builds, IMO, seems to be this, weapon based(sta) skills aren't made to be dps filler, they are utility skills and DoT skills meant to be used when appropriate while you spam light/heavy attacks. This would be fine, except weapon damage is insignificant compared to the magicka based class skills you can spam. This becomes even more of a problem if you take into account animation canceling, where someone can output high amounts of damage by using more attacks in less time. If ZOS were to simply up weapon dmg it would change nothing, as magicka based animation cancelers would do increased dmg as well. The problem is made worse because melee class skills cost magicka, use spell dmg to scale their dmg, but use weapon crit. So people trying to use class skills and melee weapons get double screwed because they have to split resources and can't stack like pure light armor magicka users.

I think part of the fix is likely this, have staves basic attacks scale off your spell dmg, as the attack is magical anyway, increase weapon dmg and it's overcharge caps(softcap) and make all melee class skills still cost magicka, but have their dmg scale off of weapon dmg. This would allow for an increased weapon damage to bring melee up to par with magicka builds, without affecting the already good dps of magicka based builds, then melee builds would have the same ability to do animation canceling(if this going to be allowed to continue) using class skills and light/heavy attacks, and use weapon skills to fill the gap caused by the lack of resource/regen to spam magicka based skills as effectively.

Any thoughts?

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Id prefer to not see someone told to come back when theyre ready to put on leather hotpants if they want to do melee dps, and thats precisely whats going to happen if theres a dps discrepancy AND they keep up the idea that their versions of raids must be a timed affair.

Id also like to be one shot if Im hit in a dress, as it should be.

Of course, thats not happening.

My main is a heavy armor dk. I prefer 2h, but tried dw for giggles. I shelved him at VR 2 because I cant kill anything in a reasonable time frame.

The heavy armor thing ties in perfectly with the stamina weapon issue because theres a load of people here that demand all dps roll with leather because all heavy should be used for is tanking, when one of the reasons heavy armor sucks is directly related to a major problem with stamina weapons... weapon damage blows.

Its obvious to me that youre not supposed to aoe with cleave spam. Hit it and hravy attacks + splash damage while the dot ticks. Problem is, weapons dont hit for crap, mobs are immune to bleed half the time...

I wont need regen or reduction if crap dies in a timely manner, and fixing weapon damage will solve that.

Exactly, as to your point about heavy<light. there is literally no difference in damage mitigation between my DK VR 12 in heavy vs my Sorc VR5 in light. i Actually am more effective due to magica regen with my sorc. I can be at armor cap with a toggle and another click i am 1200 over cap and mitigating 50% damage at hard cap . My DK in heavy with spike armor being an orc actually has less armor. As for the melee problem i think they only way they are going to remotley fix this is by adding more bleeds and DOT's to the melee abilites. if they increase the hit there will be n uproar form the Cyrodil community and the burst damage Melee can attain. as for resources in Armor its clearly in favor of light armor. the heavy armor passives are worse then medium.

Lyall84 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Id prefer to not see someone told to come back when theyre ready to put on leather hotpants if they want to do melee dps, and thats precisely whats going to happen if theres a dps discrepancy AND they keep up the idea that their versions of raids must be a timed affair.

Id also like to be one shot if Im hit in a dress, as it should be.

Of course, thats not happening.

My main is a heavy armor dk. I prefer 2h, but tried dw for giggles. I shelved him at VR 2 because I cant kill anything in a reasonable time frame.

The heavy armor thing ties in perfectly with the stamina weapon issue because theres a load of people here that demand all dps roll with leather because all heavy should be used for is tanking, when one of the reasons heavy armor sucks is directly related to a major problem with stamina weapons... weapon damage blows.

Its obvious to me that youre not supposed to aoe with cleave spam. Hit it and hravy attacks + splash damage while the dot ticks. Problem is, weapons dont hit for crap, mobs are immune to bleed half the time...

I wont need regen or reduction if crap dies in a timely manner, and fixing weapon damage will solve that.

Exactly, as to your point about heavy<light. there is literally no difference in damage mitigation between my DK VR 12 in heavy vs my Sorc VR5 in light. i Actually am more effective due to magica regen with my sorc. I can be at armor cap with a toggle and another click i am 1200 over cap and mitigating 50% damage at hard cap . My DK in heavy with spike armor being an orc actually has less armor. As for the melee problem i think they only way they are going to remotley fix this is by adding more bleeds and DOT's to the melee abilites. if they increase the hit there will be n uproar form the Cyrodil community and the burst damage Melee can attain. as for resources in Armor its clearly in favor of light armor. the heavy armor passives are worse then medium.

Heavy is only worse than medium in regards to damage. For survival they SHOULD be better. If they are not, then it is a problem with the way armor is calculated not the passives it has. heavy is set up to be the defensive option, not the offensive one.

Sakiri wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Id prefer to not see someone told to come back when theyre ready to put on leather hotpants if they want to do melee dps, and thats precisely whats going to happen if theres a dps discrepancy AND they keep up the idea that their versions of raids must be a timed affair.

Id also like to be one shot if Im hit in a dress, as it should be.

Of course, thats not happening.

My main is a heavy armor dk. I prefer 2h, but tried dw for giggles. I shelved him at VR 2 because I cant kill anything in a reasonable time frame.

The heavy armor thing ties in perfectly with the stamina weapon issue because theres a load of people here that demand all dps roll with leather because all heavy should be used for is tanking, when one of the reasons heavy armor sucks is directly related to a major problem with stamina weapons... weapon damage blows.

Its obvious to me that youre not supposed to aoe with cleave spam. Hit it and hravy attacks + splash damage while the dot ticks. Problem is, weapons dont hit for crap, mobs are immune to bleed half the time...

I wont need regen or reduction if crap dies in a timely manner, and fixing weapon damage will solve that.

Exactly, as to your point about heavy<light. there is literally no difference in damage mitigation between my DK VR 12 in heavy vs my Sorc VR5 in light. i Actually am more effective due to magica regen with my sorc. I can be at armor cap with a toggle and another click i am 1200 over cap and mitigating 50% damage at hard cap . My DK in heavy with spike armor being an orc actually has less armor. As for the melee problem i think they only way they are going to remotley fix this is by adding more bleeds and DOT's to the melee abilites. if they increase the hit there will be n uproar form the Cyrodil community and the burst damage Melee can attain. as for resources in Armor its clearly in favor of light armor. the heavy armor passives are worse then medium.

Adding more bleeds wont do shiz as long as there are mobs immune to bleeds.

@thejolly Im afraid you misunderstand where my concern comes from. Note, I dont run trials. I have *extensive * history in top endgame content. You see it now even you want to do trials, you run x spec and y class end of story. I was hoping they wouldnt have rhat crap here, but basically yeah, unless dps in all armor types are stupid close, its going to be leather or go home.

I dont want to see that either.

With how bleeds currently work though, there's no hope od adding more. They dont stack and they tickle. Cyrodiil community whines about everything anyway.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If you're referring mainly to me as you seem to be in this thread I'll address this post as such:

Your problems aesthetically with medium armor are your own. If you want to look better in your eyes because of heavy armor there are costumes for that. So I'd prefer if we leave that primarily out of a discussion about the effectiveness of said armor.

Anyway, with that in mind, I'll begin. No ones telling you to come back when you're ready to put on leather hot pants if you want to do melee dps. What I and many others are suggesting is that anyone should be able to dps in heavy armor with the right build, and there should be no more than one talent in the heavy armor tree, which there is, that improves upon that capability.

The problem is right now that talent isn't sufficient. Part of the goal should be gently improving that passive until it put's heavy armor dps'ers where they should be. Just barely behind medium armor and light armor wearers since they choose to give up defenses in favor of additional offenses. I wear medium armor and am significantly less defensive because of it, but I'm okay with this because of the extra offensive capability I have.

I'd honestly play a heavy armor melee character if it was the best dps but that would be balanced. That's because they'd be the most defensive (when heavy armor is fixed) and the most offensive (if heavy armors damage capability is improved too much). Then there'd be no reason to play anything else. We can both deal in extremes, good sir.

When looking closely at the structure of the game with an unbiased eye, one can see that heavy armor clearly isn't supposed to be the tanking only armor tree, but it's supposed to be the armor tree that has increased defenses and therefore should fit with the tank archetype best. However...

One can not ignore that heavy armor is to intended increase defenses and therefore shouldn't in all fairness have the same offensive capability of someone in a less defensive armor style who does so to increase their offenses at a cost to their defensiveness.

Even if it disappoints a lot players that they cant do the exactly the same dps in heavy armor, they SHOULD be able achieve close to the same(definition of close will have to be up for debate). Be happy with that. As a stamina dps I can't do the same dps as a magicka user but with these changes I may be close. Or at least start to close the gap. And I'm happy with that. Your time will come, and is starting with these changes as well.

So with that, I hope we can start to put this heavy armor discussion off for another day when the devs actually address it, since both of our points have been made painfully apparent.

You know, I've been thinking about the point in your spoiler and I consider aesthetics to be one of the most important factors in an mmo. This being the case, there could be room to add morphs to some of the heavy armor skill points that reduce the mitigation in exchange for more dps friendly stats.

This way it would be optional, tanks could still take the heavy mitigation promised by heavy plate while the classic "knight" toons who want to be able to cleave with a 2h weapon in heavy armor could do so. The only thing holding people to an armor = role is preconception and to my mind there is no reason why we can't break that mold. If different options are (more or less equal) in effectiveness the game will become more focused on skill than build which makes more sense really.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If you're referring mainly to me as you seem to be in this thread I'll address this post as such:

Your problems aesthetically with medium armor are your own. If you want to look better in your eyes because of heavy armor there are costumes for that. So I'd prefer if we leave that primarily out of a discussion about the effectiveness of said armor.

Anyway, with that in mind, I'll begin. No ones telling you to come back when you're ready to put on leather hot pants if you want to do melee dps. What I and many others are suggesting is that anyone should be able to dps in heavy armor with the right build, and there should be no more than one talent in the heavy armor tree, which there is, that improves upon that capability.

The problem is right now that talent isn't sufficient. Part of the goal should be gently improving that passive until it put's heavy armor dps'ers where they should be. Just barely behind medium armor and light armor wearers since they choose to give up defenses in favor of additional offenses. I wear medium armor and am significantly less defensive because of it, but I'm okay with this because of the extra offensive capability I have.

I'd honestly play a heavy armor melee character if it was the best dps but that would be balanced. That's because they'd be the most defensive (when heavy armor is fixed) and the most offensive (if heavy armors damage capability is improved too much). Then there'd be no reason to play anything else. We can both deal in extremes, good sir.

When looking closely at the structure of the game with an unbiased eye, one can see that heavy armor clearly isn't supposed to be the tanking only armor tree, but it's supposed to be the armor tree that has increased defenses and therefore should fit with the tank archetype best. However...

One can not ignore that heavy armor is to intended increase defenses and therefore shouldn't in all fairness have the same offensive capability of someone in a less defensive armor style who does so to increase their offenses at a cost to their defensiveness.

Even if it disappoints a lot players that they cant do the exactly the same dps in heavy armor, they SHOULD be able achieve close to the same(definition of close will have to be up for debate). Be happy with that. As a stamina dps I can't do the same dps as a magicka user but with these changes I may be close. Or at least start to close the gap. And I'm happy with that. Your time will come, and is starting with these changes as well.

So with that, I hope we can start to put this heavy armor discussion off for another day when the devs actually address it, since both of our points have been made painfully apparent.

You know, I've been thinking about the point in your spoiler and I consider aesthetics to be one of the most important factors in an mmo. This being the case, there could be room to add morphs to some of the heavy armor skill points that reduce the mitigation in exchange for more dps friendly stats.

This way it would be optional, tanks could still take the heavy mitigation promised by heavy plate while the classic "knight" toons who want to be able to cleave with a 2h weapon in heavy armor could do so. The only thing holding people to an armor = role is preconception and to my mind there is no reason why we can't break that mold. If different options are (more or less equal) in effectiveness the game will become more focused on skill than build which makes more sense really.

I like where your thoughts are going. The only thing stopping this plan from actually working right now is the fact that passives have never been morph-able, and there's only one active in each armor tree. If there were a full 5 actives like there are in other skill trees then this might be a grand idea.

But again, I like where your heads at.

On a personal side note though possibly unrelated to this comment, I'd really hate to end up playing another game where there were tank builds for every armor and weapon and class combo, and dps builds for every armor and weapon and class combo, and healing builds for every armor and weapon and class combo, for every class.

I hate that stuff, played too many mmos that ended up with this dynamic and got bored REALLY quick. There needs to be a reason behind choosing any given armor/weapon type that ties with the logical purpose of the armor/weapon. At least in my OCD little mind there does...

So part of my anxiety in this heavy armor discussion might stem from my failed attempts to ingratiate myself into other mmos because of the dynamic that EVERYONE CAN DO ANYTHING WITH ANY WEAPON/ARMOR, which really pushes my buttons for some reason.

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Many of you have asked what we’re doing to make skills, passives, and builds based on stamina more viable and as attractive as the magicka-based options. Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives. As with all our balance efforts, this is an ongoing process and there will be more to come. We look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Bow: Poison Arrow

• Poison Arrow’s damage-over-time has been increased by 50% overall.

Bow: Snipe

• Snipe’s cast time will be reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds.
• Snipe’s maximum range will be reduced from 40 meters to 35 meters.
• Snipe’s minimum range will be reduced from 20 meters to 10 meters.

Dual Wield: Flurry

• The damage for Flurry’s final hit will be increased by 10%.

Medium Armor

• With the Wind Walker passive, medium armor will reduce stamina costs by 2% per piece equipped.

Two Handed: Cleave

• Cleave’s damage-over-time will be increased by 25% overall, and scale as the ability ranks up.

Two Handed: Uppercut

• Uppercut’s damage will be increased by 10%.
• Uppercut’s global cooldown after use will be reduced by 50%.

Nothing about fixing 1h & s? Nothing about nerfing stick and skirts? No fixes to why heavy armor is absolutely useless? You guys are useless, zenimax

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

I refuse to move to a stamina build until the class Ultimates start to be effected by charging the stamina. Its all pretty cool, but this is a severe problem. I am currently flying all over the map with one of the Ultimates charged up on magic and it just destroys everything and charges super fast. If they could do this, I would be on board with switching my build back to stamina. As far as right now goes, I'm going to aim for 2 million gold before the next patch since magic is so OP atm. Its going super fast atm...

I'm sorry to inform you, I don't think any class ultimates will become stamina based in damage any time soon, if ever. The reason is simple, that it doesn't fit the structure of the game.

A damaging abilities damage is based of the resource taken for the ability and other abilities in the same skill tree, as well as weapon or spell power based more on the effect and type of the damage, and further weapon or spell crit based on similar criteria although that doesn't directly influence the damage of course.

As it is, all class abilities take magicka to cost, so even class ultimates that seem to fit in stamina builds, they wont take stamina unless any class abilities also become stamina based.

An alternate option would be for some ultimates like Dragon Leap, Death Stroke, and Radial sweep that I personally would like to fit into this category to be based in weapon power instead of spell power.

Unfortunately this also sort of breaks the structure of the game for all abilities but dragon leap, since dragon leap is the only one that deals physical damage, so this couldn't apply to really any other ultimate out there.

Indeed, this is a tricky subject, this idea about ultimates regarding stamina dps. I think ultimately ( no pun intended ) we're going to need to add in weapon based ultimates, as well as having thieves and dark brotherhood ultimates be based off of stamina and/or weapon power. Unfortunately that could take a bit longer than we'd all hope but it's at least something to look forward to if nothing else.