LGBT Quests

Ariane

Ahnjil wrote: »

[
Back to the matter at hand: If there had been gays in previous TES games and there would have been lore on how they are tolerated in such a primitive world, I would accept them in TES.

Have you played Skyrim? You could marry people of the same gender, so there were gays in previous TES

Schurge

This just my opinion, and I know it will offend many of you, but I find the "progressive" attitude towards homosexuality in ESO to be kind of obnoxious. I personally don't care if there are openly gay characters in video games 99% of the time (making Shepherd bisexual three games into the Mass Effect trilogy really pissed me off though for lore reasons). However the obnoxious part is that there is no social stigma within the game world.

Elder Scrolls is dark fantasy (and that is how I like my fantasy) racism, sexism, religious persecution, and slavery exist. Racism and religious persecution play an especially large role in Elder Scrolls. It doesn't make sense to me that homosexuality would just be acceptable. I would rather the treatment of homosexuality vary by region within the game, in some areas it is accepted and in others it is persecuted.

I am not a big Elder Scrolls lore buff, I have the average knowledge a player accrues from playing Oblivion and Skyrim for hundreds of combined hours without reading any of the books.

So correct me if I am wrong, it would seem to me that for instance, homosexuality would be accepted by the Daggerfall Covenant as they seem to be more libertarian. The Aldmeri Dominion on the other hand is into racial supremacy and authoritarian government (people are two stupid to run their own lives) and history shows us those types of civilizations aren't very tolerant.

Even in ancient Rome homosexuality wasn't exactly accepted. What existed was institutionalized pederasty (man-boy relationships that the boy might not actually want to be in) and usually the boy was not an actual Roman citizen suggesting that the Romans weren't willing to put Roman boys through that trauma.

So, long story short, I am generally fine with homosexual characters in video games but I wish that it was portrayed more realistically in dark fantasy settings like this one. IE, intolerance should exist. Some quests involving homosexual characters should contain themes of intolerance.

Seabreeze

Aluluei wrote: »

(Note: I've had this post sitting in drafts for over a day, going back and forth over whether to post it, because it contains personal information. Given the number of views this thread has attracted, that may be risky -- and, more pertinently, one of the points I want to make is that this isn't all about me. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to make that point without explaining why that's the case.)

Seabreeze wrote: »

One person felt they were being excluded because they aren't LGBT

I find that attitude disappointing. Western popular culture is saturated with heterosexual romantic content.

I'm not saying s/he feels left out in the rest of society. I'm saying s/he felt left out HERE, on this forum, in this thread. I'm not saying s/he should or shouldn't, but that's just how I perceived it.

I am LGBT. I've been around both nice LGBT people and some really intolerant ones. There are, sadly, LGBT folks out there who insist on an "Us Vs. Them" mentality, and there is divisiveness even within the communities. For instance, it can be difficult for some bi or trans folks to fit in, since they can sometimes be met with hostility by those who say things like "pick a side" or "you aren't really one of us." It's something you'd only really understand if you've seen or experienced it, I guess.

My point is just that people can feel left out, sometimes. You might not understand why they do, but that doesn't change the situation, at least not for them. I know what it feels like, so I'm trying to be kind to him/her.

Ahnjil

seanolan wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

Tamriel is not Medieval Europe.

It is very much like it.

Oh, dear GODS, do you need a history lesson.

1) Well-fed people
2) Nobility and peasantry actually interacting
3) Money - people have it and use it to trade (MOST medieval transactions among peasantry and even middle class was barter, up until the late medieval period)
4) People walking around armed without being challenged
5) Complete lack of filth
6) Building sizes
7) Furniture, beds, books - BOOKS! A "library" in medieval times might have 20-100 books at most, and a household might own 2-3 books and consider themselves well-read!
8) No dominance of religion - religion exists, but has nowhere near the political power
9) Ease of access to guilds - guilds were hereditary or based solely on apprenticeship where not exclusively hereditary. You didn't JOIN a guild. You apprenticed for 7 YEARS under a master, and then tested, and maybe you were accepted, maybe not.

This, of course, is ignoring the matters of races, magic, daedra, teleporting wayshrines, armor made of ebony, short distances between settlements, the few farms compared to the number of people, the fantastical creatures, the time frames for crafting, lack of sleeping and eating for players, etc. that are just part and parcel of an MMO. This is NOTHING like medieval times.

It is A LOT like medieval times. Kingdoms, Empires, castles, swords etc etc.
Of course there are and there have to be some differences. Lots of differences.

seanolan wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Hey, I tried, but that thread was 95% personal jabs and so doomed to die.

Back to TES, you're not entirely correct, Ahnjil. There's been more than one gay NPC in the previous games, there were couples; look up my post on the previous page. We don't know if they were married, the games didn't say, we don't know how they were perceived by other people. But there is no evidence that they weren't accepted, so we cannot assume this to be true just because we think it should be in a medievalesque fantasy setting. Tamriel has magic leaking through the sun and spaceships and time travel; why should its society be exactly like ours?

What we do know is that nobody has a problem with the player character's same-sex marriage in Skyrim; that at least some Khajiit are open-minded about it (Ahzirr Traajijazeri, "Life is short. If you have not made love recently, please, put down this book, and take care of that with all haste. Find a wanton lass or a frisky lad, or several, in whatever combination your wise loins direct, and do not under any circumstances play hard to get. Our struggle against the colossal forces of oppression can wait.") And now that it's completely normal in ESO.

So there really is no basis for saying that it's lore-breaking. This is not a political statement, it's been there for years.

This amount of gay marriages a thousand years before the other games is a little lore breaking. About Tamriel being a fantasy world: This is not about what there is, but what is accepted. If there had been magic in real life and in common use, it would have been accepted. But it's a primitive world, like ours was and the people are like our people were and are, with same sins and same virtues.

In real world, gays were rarely accepted. But in ESO, they are accepted everywhere. That amount of gay acceptance is just not realistic in a world full of intolerance like Tamriel is. As for player marriages - let players do what they want. Forbidding them would also be seen as taking part in the gay quarrel.

Actually, I was leaning more on the side that it wasn't lore-breaking until you said that. It's strange but I never even thought about why the "issue" of gay/lesbian marriage is shown more tolerance than other "issues" such as race. Guess I have more to think about.

A large amount of the bigotry towards homosexuality has a religious basis. While numerous religions in Tamriel mention racial superiority, none mention sexuality. Hence I have no trouble believing in a society that hates other races, yet has no bias against sexual orientation. Some of the most aggressive and war-like Native American tribes, xenophobic and hostile, still had no bias against the homosexuals, who took in children who had lost parents. The Spartans are another good example of xenophobia without homophobia. So I don't find intolerance that doesn't match our society's to be particularly implausible.

There are some examples of gay acceptance of course (although in these examples gays are accepted because women are not, which was a lot bigger problem [in TES there are lore reasons for women being so accepted]). But mostly, people have been too stubborn to accept them. Religion was just used as a tool in this.

Sephirajo wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

Tamriel is not Medieval Europe.

It is very much like it.

You do realize that even in Medieval Europe there were gay, lesbian, bisexual and pansexual people, right? And they often formed loving relationships with each other, even if it wasn't marriage, right? Sorry, your argument is totally invalid and besides, "LOL MEDIEVAL EUROPE" is a sorry reason NOT to include this stuff in a fantasy game. It doesn't break immersion to be reminded that people exist.

Of course there were (although not so much because it was thought to be bad).
Like I said earlier: This isn't about what there is, but what is accepted (and practiced).

Ariane

Schurge wrote: »

IE, intolerance should exist. Some quests involving homosexual characters should contain themes of intolerance.

I think they do, but it depends on the faction you've played. Actually, some people described a few missions where this is shown.

I find totally acceptable that some quests showing intolerance exist, but this is a tricky subject. We can have intolerance against different races marriage, but should we face different skin color racism? Sex discrimination? Misogyny?

In summary, I prefer to live the game with a simpler environment, with their own intolerances (like some altmers believing they're best than the other races) instead of having to deal with every intolerance already existing in the real world.

liquid_wolf

My favorite quest in the game so far involved a fiance returning back to find his family/farm/love under attack by daedric forces.

You help him out, save his love, and the servants. He asks you if he should leave to become stronger so he too can protect his family.

I said yes.

Turns out the love and one of the female servants had been engaging in a kind of affair while the male was away on business, and the servant was wondering if she was interfering. She asked if she should leave.

I told the servant to stay.

Whoops. Ah well.

Never did talk to the love until after this was all played out, so didn't get to see her side of things before I made those decision.

Very memorable though.

Thanks, Zenimax.

Sephirajo

Look, Ahnjil, it's a freakin' fantasy game. You can dress up what is coming across as homophobia anyway you like but the long and short of it is you're still barking up the wrong tree here. This setting isn't medieval Europe. The game is nothing like it. The religion is nothing like the religions on earth. So just knock it off already. For serious. You're just making yourself look worse and worse with you're "I'm not ____ but...." posts.

Ahnjil

Sephirajo wrote: »

Look, Ahnjil, it's a freakin' fantasy game. You can dress up what is coming across as homophobia anyway you like but the long and short of it is you're still barking up the wrong tree here. This setting isn't medieval Europe. The game is nothing like it. The religion is nothing like the religions on earth. So just knock it off already. For serious. You're just making yourself look worse and worse with you're "I'm not ____ but...." posts.

As far as I remember, I made only one of those posts.
You're, however, starting to make this personal and assuming too much.
Let's end the discussion here, before you make yourself look "worse and worse".

liquid_wolf

Oh!

and the werewolf village quest in Bangkorai.

Decided to help the couple out and screw the village. They need to learn how to handle this infection instead of cowering in some secretive location away from the rest of the world.

ZOS_AlanG

Hey guys, this discussion is getting a bit contentious, and we don't want to see it escalate further. It is perfectly acceptable for people to disagree, but debate needs to be kept civil and constructive.

Thechemicals

I am not sure if LBGT quests add any substance or intrigue for me because of the shock/laugh factor, like the guy who wants to work out in the hot sun shirtless with Jakarn then tells me i wouldnt understand. I think the most interesting quests are the asexual ones like undead quests. The Dingroth quest still leaves me scratching my head as to what the hell was going on.

Xaei

In the AD, there's that quest about a pirate captain who's first mate took her wife captive.

Nathair

Schurge wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion on the other hand is into racial supremacy and authoritarian government (people are two stupid to run their own lives) and history shows us those types of civilizations aren't very tolerant.

You're begging the question here. "Tolerance" immediately implies that something is contentious or disagreeable and that being willing to put up with it is therefore special or noteworthy. You are just implicitly asserting that sexual diversity is contentious and that a society either "tolerates" it or it does not. This is simply projection, a reflection of underlying assumptions. As has been illustrated in previous comments there is absolutely nothing inherently contentious in sexual diversity. "Tolerance" only appears once someone decides that it is unwelcome, inferior, problematic or (most likely in this case) "sinful".

Nobody talks about how a culture is "tolerant" of people with "outie" belly-buttons or how liberal it is to be "accepting" of people with attached earlobes.

Ohioastro

If I find a particular quest line not to my taste I can....drop it. It's not as if there is a lack of things to do.

Allyah

@Ohioastro‌
I don't think anyone here was arguing that you couldn't drop. Although some have mentioned it being obnoxiously prevalent to come across. I don't agree that it is obnoxious but sometimes you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

Ohioastro

The great thing about ESO is that virtually nothing is actually required for you to progress; the only "required" progression quests that I can think of are the main faction line quests and, eventually, the overall main quest. You might even be able to get around those to open up the more advanced zones - I don't know about that. But you can certainly role-play any approach that suits your fancy - my whimsical and mercenary Khajiit nightblade certainly doesn't pick the same choices as his fanatical Dark Elf sorceror doppleganger does!

Surinen

quest with Captain Linwen reeks of lore inaccuracy. Altmer are known for keeping their bloodlines pure thanks to noble and just long practised eugenics infanticide. one would think that Altmer are beyond such persuasions as the ones mentioned in this thread [preservation of the Aldmeri heritage through selective breeding definately puts a strong accent on the male and female roles in the matrimony] - - or maybe Linwen has been tainted with daedric powers? if yes then I rest my case.

Rosveen

Schurge wrote: »

(making Shepherd bisexual three games into the Mass Effect trilogy really pissed me off though for lore reasons).

When did Mass Effect make Shepard bi? I'm genuinely curious. I don't remember it ever being anything but my own choice.

Schurge wrote: »

Elder Scrolls is dark fantasy (and that is how I like my fantasy) racism, sexism, religious persecution, and slavery exist. Racism and religious persecution play an especially large role in Elder Scrolls. It doesn't make sense to me that homosexuality would just be acceptable. I would rather the treatment of homosexuality vary by region within the game, in some areas it is accepted and in others it is persecuted.

I am not a big Elder Scrolls lore buff, I have the average knowledge a player accrues from playing Oblivion and Skyrim for hundreds of combined hours without reading any of the books.

So correct me if I am wrong, it would seem to me that for instance, homosexuality would be accepted by the Daggerfall Covenant as they seem to be more libertarian. The Aldmeri Dominion on the other hand is into racial supremacy and authoritarian government (people are two stupid to run their own lives) and history shows us those types of civilizations aren't very tolerant.

Even in ancient Rome homosexuality wasn't exactly accepted. What existed was institutionalized pederasty (man-boy relationships that the boy might not actually want to be in) and usually the boy was not an actual Roman citizen suggesting that the Romans weren't willing to put Roman boys through that trauma.

So, long story short, I am generally fine with homosexual characters in video games but I wish that it was portrayed more realistically in dark fantasy settings like this one. IE, intolerance should exist. Some quests involving homosexual characters should contain themes of intolerance.

I agree to a point. Tamrielic societies aren't homogenous and I'm sure some have an easier time accepting certain things than others. Even looking at interracial marriages, it isn't always so simple: as a melting pot of races and cultures, the Imperial City should be more accepting of them than some backwater Breton village, but even there you could find people making fun of a Nord with a Bosmer wife. The problem is that when this kind of relationships isn't overly common in the game to begin with - in video games in general, in fact - it's a risky move. I'm sure I don't have to explain why. Even in this thread we have a bit of a problem with disentangling these quests from current real life issues.

As for the alliances, it's an interesting point. I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough about all of them... But anyway, Khajiit seem to be open-minded. Bosmer are weird, and I say it in the kindest possible way, they'd probably be more angry if you picked a flower than if you slept with a person of the same sex... Altmer are interesting. I think you could make a case both ways. If they're still into racial purity, they might put more weight on arranged marriages, and this could mean that when you don't intend to reproduce, it doesn't matter who you sleep with. Childless marriages could actually be a way of getting rid of undesirables and/or creating a tier of caretakers of Altmeri youths. Or they're just sophisticated enough to not care, they're the supreme culture after all. But I could see it going the other way.

Dunmer are most likely split, but I'm not sure what it looks like in the Second Era. Telvanni don't care either way, as usual. Hlaalu follow the imperial way, whatever it is. Others go with the Temple viewpoint - there was something about second aperture, I recall they outlawed ***, but I really can't bring myself to wade throught the sermons again, so someone pick it up if you can. I don't know what their view is. But I'm curious how a hermaphroditic living god influences the society with his teachings.

In general, as someone mentioned before, there aren't any widely followed religious taboos on homosexuality, so all real world similarities from this angle go out the window. On the contrary, one of the main goddesses is a patron of beauty and physical pleasures. I doubt Dibella cares about your gender. :P I don't even want to go into daedric cults.

Nathair

Allyah wrote: »

sometimes you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

I'm having enormous difficulty in following this line of "argument". It appears that you are saying that if any of the NPCs involved in a quest are apparently involved in a same sex relationship this makes it "a LGBT quest". Is that correct? Does this mean that quests in which NPCs are apparently in heterosexual relationships should be considered "straight quests"? What about the quests in which nobody mentions it? Should we call those "asexual quests" or maybe "quests of uncertain gender orientation"? Does the involvement of any LGBT NPC in a quest make it "a LGBT quest"? ('Cause you know that, statistically speaking, a reasonable percentage of those legions of NPC bad guys you're killing are LGB.) Is this starting to sound ridiculous to you?

The real problem, however, comes with this notion of agreeing with "the subject matter". People are gay, lots of them. That's just a fact. Agreement doesn't really enter into it. If the game reflects that reality then it reflects that reality and, again, agreement doesn't enter into it. It's not like every time you complete a quest featuring a same sex marriage reference Bethesda donates $1 to GLAD. It seems like, and please correct me if I am wrong, it seems like you are saying that if someone is personally opposed to something then all the rest of us should engineer things so that such people should be able to do what they like and yet never have to be reminded that this thing they oppose exists. That's a strange stance to take over a game that is absolutely packed to gunwales with drugs, war, torture and murder all fuelled by the constant themes of racism, imperialism, colonialism and demon worship.

Surinen

Rosveen wrote: »

Altmer are interesting. I think you could make a case both ways. If they're still into racial purity, they might put more weight on arranged marriages, and this could mean that when you don't intend to reproduce, it doesn't matter who you sleep with. Childless marriages could actually be a way of getting rid of undesirables and/or creating a tier of caretakers of Altmeri youths. Or they're just sophisticated enough to not care, they're the supreme culture after all. But I could see it going the other way.

I doubt that you could make a case both ways. There is no 'if', they are into racial purity, especially showed in the letter from parents to a son who has decided to go with a khajiit simpleton (interactive map if I remember correctly). I highly doubt that an infertile couple would be tolerated considering mentioned purity; wouldn't such person be marked as broken cog ( a 'filthmer' as I prefer to call mermade impurities)? Also, we know what happens with undesirables, they are exiled. Do you expect of Altmer to put their youth in the hands of mer whos mythic integrity has been compromised? I do not see even a slight bit of sophistication in 'not caring', only inaction that may lead to catastrophy. There is only one, point of view, a pure one.

Sephirajo

The sheer amount of "I'm not ____ but ____" posts in this is getting disheartening. It's almost like some people take issue with the fact that an entire group of people exist. I think Zenimax did the right thing by including characters of every sexual orientation because these people exist and it's high time we stopped denying it and treating it like an aberration. LGBT people have been around since the dawn of time, and homosexual behavior is even documented in non-human species so it's not something that's just us. It's everywhere. It's natural.

Honestly it's said about 10% of the population is LGBT, and some of you are complaining that a gaming company remembered they existed instead of covering it up for the comfort of straight-white male gamers, who statistically are not the majority, sorry guys. What was done was wonderful, and praising it, I assume, was the purpose of this post. Not coming in here and crying about how it's objectionable. Somehow, I don't feel much pity for those of you who think a person existing and that being reflected in art, games and literature is objectionable.

Allyah

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

sometimes you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

I'm having enormous difficulty in following this line of "argument". It appears that you are saying that if any of the NPCs involved in a quest are apparently involved in a same sex relationship this makes it "a LGBT quest". Is that correct? Does this mean that quests in which NPCs are apparently in heterosexual relationships should be considered "straight quests"? What about the quests in which nobody mentions it? Should we call those "asexual quests" or maybe "quests of uncertain gender orientation"? Does the involvement of any LGBT NPC in a quest make it "a LGBT quest"? ('Cause you know that, statistically speaking, a reasonable percentage of those legions of NPC bad guys you're killing are LGB.) Is this starting to sound ridiculous to you?

The real problem, however, comes with this notion of agreeing with "the subject matter". People are gay, lots of them. That's just a fact. Agreement doesn't really enter into it. If the game reflects that reality then it reflects that reality and, again, agreement doesn't enter into it. It's not like every time you complete a quest featuring a same sex marriage reference Bethesda donates $1 to GLAD. It seems like, and please correct me if I am wrong, it seems like you are saying that if someone is personally opposed to something then all the rest of us should engineer things so that such people should be able to do what they like and yet never have to be reminded that this thing they oppose exists. That's a strange stance to take over a game that is absolutely packed to gunwales with drugs, war, torture and murder all fuelled by the constant themes of racism, imperialism, colonialism and demon worship.

Hey, look! The usual response that has nothing to do with what I said or meant. This is new.

Ohioastro wrote: »

If I find a particular quest line not to my taste I can....drop it. It's not as if there is a lack of things to do.

Allyah wrote: »

@Ohioastro‌
I don't think anyone here was arguing that you couldn't drop. Although some have mentioned it being obnoxiously prevalent to come across. I don't agree that it is obnoxious but sometimes you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

What I was saying was that it is not a matter of simply dropping it for some people. Nothing more or less. But thanks for reading into what I actually said and rearranging it so you get the chance to feel indignant about something. I'm sure you appreciate it when people do that to you.

Milanna

Do not feed the ....

Rosveen

Surinen wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Altmer are interesting. I think you could make a case both ways. If they're still into racial purity, they might put more weight on arranged marriages, and this could mean that when you don't intend to reproduce, it doesn't matter who you sleep with. Childless marriages could actually be a way of getting rid of undesirables and/or creating a tier of caretakers of Altmeri youths. Or they're just sophisticated enough to not care, they're the supreme culture after all. But I could see it going the other way.

I doubt that you could make a case both ways. There is no 'if', they are into racial purity, especially showed in the letter from parents to a son who has decided to go with a khajiit simpleton (interactive map if I remember correctly). I highly doubt that an infertile couple would be tolerated considering mentioned purity; wouldn't such person be marked as broken cog? Also, we know what happens with undesirables, they are exiled. Do you expect of Altmer to put their youth in the hands of mer whos mythic integrity has been compromised? I do not see even a slight bit of sophistication in 'not caring', only inaction that may lead to catastrophy. There is only one, point of view, a pure one.

Oh gods, you are here too. We're doomed.
Ahem.
Not all Altmer are so extreme in their views, but I agree that they're one of the least likely to fully accept gay marriages. Not gay relationships in general, mind you, only the definitive decision to not prolong the racial line.
About sophistication, what I meant was that it would be unwise to discard a person who can still contribute in a meaningful way, unconnected to reproduction. Science, art, war etc. They don't even have to be accepted, but they can be used.

It does not make a very good argument, I admit. I'm too tired to think of one, or maybe there just isn't one to make. I'm so bad with Altmer lore. I'll have to think about it tomorrow...

Surinen

Rosveen wrote: »

Oh gods, you are here too. We're doomed.
Ahem.
Not all Altmer are so extreme in their views, but I agree that they're one of the least likely to fully accept gay marriages. Not gay relationships in general, mind you, only the definitive decision to not prolong the racial line.
About sophistication, what I meant was that it would be unwise to discard a person who can still contribute in a meaningful way, unconnected to reproduction. Science, art, war etc. They don't even have to be accepted, but they can be used.

It does not make a very good argument, I admit. I'm too tired to think of one, or maybe there just isn't one to make. I'm so bad with Altmer lore. I'll have to think about it tomorrow...

yes, we meet again. it has been 2 years, but you remember me. heartwarming.
Mhm.
Naturally, and that is why I have mentioned exile as non extreme way. Those who exercise their will accordingly with the highest value of the Aldmer purity, would definately put them to death - such a vile non-reproductors do not only pose a threat to Altmer divine awareness but also rise a high risk for their bloodlines: what if parents of mentioned homosexual has decided that because their son/daughter passed newborn child exam is a reason for them to pass on the second child? One spoiled lilmer may bring doom, although one may argue that the whole line was tainted from the beginning and such a cataclysm was inevitable. We know from the scriptures that Altmer apply the same gentle care to breeding of their cattle as they do to themselves (everything is genetically regulated, from nobility, through peasants to farm animals). Would it be trully unwise? Risk calculation is required: what if more rotten matter lays within them and awaits a good moment to spread onto Alinor's finest? I say, do not trust those Mer who cannot make more Mer, especially if they do it willingly! (but yes, paint them in brown, pose as bosmer and throw in the first lines) But to be honest I honestly doubt that there are homosexual Altmer, that is I have doubted it before Linwen appeared. Now I'm disgusted with the ESO lore. I understand every other race but Altmer? ungodly

Nathair

Allyah wrote: »

Hey, look! The usual response that has nothing to do with what I said or meant. This is new.

Really? Then I would be interested to hear exactly what you actually did mean by

you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

Allyah

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Hey, look! The usual response that has nothing to do with what I said or meant. This is new.

Really? Then I would be interested to hear exactly what you actually did mean by

you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

Allyah wrote: »

What I was saying was that it is not a matter of simply dropping it for some people. Nothing more or less.[...]

Allyah wrote: »

@Ohioastro‌
I don't think anyone here was arguing that you couldn't drop. Although some have mentioned it being obnoxiously prevalent to come across. I don't agree that it is obnoxious but sometimes you don't even know if it is a LGBT quest until you finish it and the ending does take the choice away from you whether you agree with the subject matter or not.

Context is important.

Corithna

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

They are only really noticeable if you yourself take notice of them and make a big deal out of it. These NPC's are not living people, they literally have no life, much less a sex life. For that matter neither do the apparently heterosexual NPC's in the game. The only thing you have is a few excepts of text or sound bites that in any way illustrate that this exists in the game. Although there are some area's where there's quite a bit of suggestion going on.

In the Roman empire every conceivable form of coupling was common place and perfectly acceptable by all accounts. Ancient Grecian civilization in many ways encouraged such expressions. It is from a historic view point a very recent issue that segments of society cast a disapproving eye on such activity. And so in a very real sense if you are being taken out of your immersion I would suggest that you are only being taken out of your own preconceptions by being exposed to a bit of reality in this fantasy setting.

Corithna

Schurge wrote: »

So, long story short, I am generally fine with homosexual characters in video games but I wish that it was portrayed more realistically in dark fantasy settings like this one. IE, intolerance should exist. Some quests involving homosexual characters should contain themes of intolerance.

While yes there are some threads of intolerance and racism in this game it is also generally shown in a very negative light and not something to aspire towards. The writers in this title have taken a very careful stance on how such subjects are broached and what message they send to the consumer. The intent is for this title to have broad reaching appeal across all segments of the markets it services.

One such chain of quests is in AD at the college of Aldmeri propriety. By the resolution of the chain you hear denouncements of such behavior for what it is, villainous. As should all such behavior the exhibits bigotry, racism, homophobia, etc. I genuinely like the fact that such negative attitudes are handled in the manner that I've seen so far. Recognized as existing, denounced as what it is, but also shown as the rare exception and not the general rule of society.

cliveklgb14_ESO

Ahnjil wrote: »

Back to the matter at hand: If there had been gays in previous TES games and there would have been lore on how they are tolerated in such a primitive world, I would accept them in TES.

By your flawed in-accurate argument, there is absolutely no lore that says it isn't tolerated.

have only one gay and he isn't married or anything.

Any NPC you can marry in Skyrim is potentially gay or bi-sexually since they will marry either sex. So that is a lot of gay/bi NPCS by direct inclusion of the mechanic.

There are quite a few implied ones in not only skyrim but morrowind also, and one directly bi Crassius Curio – The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind


Balimund (smith in riften)
Clavicus Vile
mage in the palace in solitude
Conj teacher at the college from comments unequiping gear
Housecarl in markath
Nazeem in whiterun rom comments unequiping gear

Dragonborn DLC has 2 in a relationship in Solstheim.

And many more.

There are many left "open" to interpretation on purpose.


{quote]realism,[/quote}

Realism? What planet are you living on? Vast majority of the civilized world has no problem with them. Even in the U.S. 70% of those in poll after poll (not just one) are fine with same sex marriage.

Your intolerance and bigotry is the stuff of the stone age.