LGBT Quests

Srugzal

Ahnjil wrote: »

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

I don't doubt the sincerity of your comment, though I disagree. This isn't a medieval setting, though it has pre-industrial elements... but it also has a powerful, consistent magic system.

This is a fantasy setting. Alternative relationships have long been part of fantasy worlds. Read Anne McCaffery and Ursula K. Le Guin; I'm sure there even better examples. I'm pleased and delighted when I see something other than straight white male privilege echoed in a game world, because it allows us to explore the social and storytelling aspect in a more complex way.

The game is, after all, about more than spamming Crystal Shards at giant bats.

Srugzal

Ahnjil wrote: »

There is racism in TES, even though it's not accepted in real life. There is slavery in TES, even though it's not accepted in real life. There are wars in TES, even though they aren't accepted in real life. So, because of lore and realism, I don't like that there are gays in ESO.

There have been many lore changes over the evolution of the series, expansions and alterations to histories, playable races that were not always playable, and so on. The games have grown as well in their storytelling. I think that the presence of themes of inclusiveness and gender equality are not new to gaming in general, and they've now become a natural part of the storytelling toolkit that game designers have at their disposal. It would have been backward for the ESO designers to have made the decision to exclude all LGBTQ content. The lore remains relevant and vibrant because it continues to grow.

One of the quests that I found really touching was one that a lot of people have made fun of, and that was the Argonian woman who felt that her whole life she had been a Crocodile trapped in an Argonian's body. The quest gave you the choice of helping her find her true nature, or not. I found it quite moving. A crocodile makes an awesome tank, too.

The very notion of a quest like that goes far beyond whether a female ship captain calls her partner her "wife" or not... and it's stories like these that will keep me coming back.

Oh and by the way, my male Breton character in Skyrim married another male Nord in the Mara temple in Riften. So same sex marriage has been in the games at least since Skyrim.

WeeMadAggie

Ahnjil wrote: »

seanolan wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

Tamriel is not Medieval Europe.

It is very much like it.

Oh, dear GODS, do you need a history lesson.

1) Well-fed people
2) Nobility and peasantry actually interacting
3) Money - people have it and use it to trade (MOST medieval transactions among peasantry and even middle class was barter, up until the late medieval period)
4) People walking around armed without being challenged
5) Complete lack of filth
6) Building sizes
7) Furniture, beds, books - BOOKS! A "library" in medieval times might have 20-100 books at most, and a household might own 2-3 books and consider themselves well-read!
8) No dominance of religion - religion exists, but has nowhere near the political power
9) Ease of access to guilds - guilds were hereditary or based solely on apprenticeship where not exclusively hereditary. You didn't JOIN a guild. You apprenticed for 7 YEARS under a master, and then tested, and maybe you were accepted, maybe not.

This, of course, is ignoring the matters of races, magic, daedra, teleporting wayshrines, armor made of ebony, short distances between settlements, the few farms compared to the number of people, the fantastical creatures, the time frames for crafting, lack of sleeping and eating for players, etc. that are just part and parcel of an MMO. This is NOTHING like medieval times.

It is A LOT like medieval times. Kingdoms, Empires, castles, swords etc etc.
Of course there are and there have to be some differences. Lots of differences.

seanolan wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Hey, I tried, but that thread was 95% personal jabs and so doomed to die.

Back to TES, you're not entirely correct, Ahnjil. There's been more than one gay NPC in the previous games, there were couples; look up my post on the previous page. We don't know if they were married, the games didn't say, we don't know how they were perceived by other people. But there is no evidence that they weren't accepted, so we cannot assume this to be true just because we think it should be in a medievalesque fantasy setting. Tamriel has magic leaking through the sun and spaceships and time travel; why should its society be exactly like ours?

What we do know is that nobody has a problem with the player character's same-sex marriage in Skyrim; that at least some Khajiit are open-minded about it (Ahzirr Traajijazeri, "Life is short. If you have not made love recently, please, put down this book, and take care of that with all haste. Find a wanton lass or a frisky lad, or several, in whatever combination your wise loins direct, and do not under any circumstances play hard to get. Our struggle against the colossal forces of oppression can wait.") And now that it's completely normal in ESO.

So there really is no basis for saying that it's lore-breaking. This is not a political statement, it's been there for years.

This amount of gay marriages a thousand years before the other games is a little lore breaking. About Tamriel being a fantasy world: This is not about what there is, but what is accepted. If there had been magic in real life and in common use, it would have been accepted. But it's a primitive world, like ours was and the people are like our people were and are, with same sins and same virtues.

In real world, gays were rarely accepted. But in ESO, they are accepted everywhere. That amount of gay acceptance is just not realistic in a world full of intolerance like Tamriel is. As for player marriages - let players do what they want. Forbidding them would also be seen as taking part in the gay quarrel.

Actually, I was leaning more on the side that it wasn't lore-breaking until you said that. It's strange but I never even thought about why the "issue" of gay/lesbian marriage is shown more tolerance than other "issues" such as race. Guess I have more to think about.

A large amount of the bigotry towards homosexuality has a religious basis. While numerous religions in Tamriel mention racial superiority, none mention sexuality. Hence I have no trouble believing in a society that hates other races, yet has no bias against sexual orientation. Some of the most aggressive and war-like Native American tribes, xenophobic and hostile, still had no bias against the homosexuals, who took in children who had lost parents. The Spartans are another good example of xenophobia without homophobia. So I don't find intolerance that doesn't match our society's to be particularly implausible.

There are some examples of gay acceptance of course (although in these examples gays are accepted because women are not, which was a lot bigger problem [in TES there are lore reasons for women being so accepted]). But mostly, people have been too stubborn to accept them. Religion was just used as a tool in this.

Sephirajo wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

Tamriel is not Medieval Europe.

It is very much like it.

You do realize that even in Medieval Europe there were gay, lesbian, bisexual and pansexual people, right? And they often formed loving relationships with each other, even if it wasn't marriage, right? Sorry, your argument is totally invalid and besides, "LOL MEDIEVAL EUROPE" is a sorry reason NOT to include this stuff in a fantasy game. It doesn't break immersion to be reminded that people exist.

Of course there were (although not so much because it was thought to be bad).
Like I said earlier: This isn't about what there is, but what is accepted (and practiced).

I don't think it's really fair to complain about a setting's cherry-picked medieval issues that its writers used to enhance a fantasy(!) setting. Not when your reasoning for complaining is your preference for these other issues you would personally prefer to have been cherry picked instead. It is a fantasy setting with a pinch of realism for flavor. The realism argument itself went out the window with the inclusion of magic in the story.

Seanolan gave you an excellent list of some of the top issues of medieval Europe that could have been touched upon and he provided you with a great lore explanation between the lack of a singular, oppressive and bigoted religion and the multitude of competing species on the planet + external competing universes, giving you a setting where homosexuality isn't a big deal because there's too much else to be worrying about than who is getting their freak on with whom.

Ahnjil

cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Back to the matter at hand: If there had been gays in previous TES games and there would have been lore on how they are tolerated in such a primitive world, I would accept them in TES.

By your flawed in-accurate argument, there is absolutely no lore that says it isn't tolerated.

have only one gay and he isn't married or anything.

Any NPC you can marry in Skyrim is potentially gay or bi-sexually since they will marry either sex. So that is a lot of gay/bi NPCS by direct inclusion of the mechanic.

There are quite a few implied ones in not only skyrim but morrowind also, and one directly bi Crassius Curio – The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind


Balimund (smith in riften)
Clavicus Vile
mage in the palace in solitude
Conj teacher at the college from comments unequiping gear
Housecarl in markath
Nazeem in whiterun rom comments unequiping gear

Dragonborn DLC has 2 in a relationship in Solstheim.

And many more.

There are many left "open" to interpretation on purpose.


{quote]realism,[/quote}

Realism? What planet are you living on? Vast majority of the civilized world has no problem with them. Even in the U.S. 70% of those in poll after poll (not just one) are fine with same sex marriage.

Your intolerance and bigotry is the stuff of the stone age.

I'm not intolerant, Tamriel is.
Vast majority of the civilised world has no problem? Yes.
Tamriel is not civilised world in the modern sense.

I wonder what's wrong with you people trying to turn this into a fight and insulting...
You're trying to prove you're so tolerant yet you don't tolerate people's opinions on a game feature.

Laura

Wow this thread is still going on? I'm guessing it hasn't been closed so that they can prove they are tolerant.

I wouldn't mind the quests at all except that they feel like "hey look at me were tolerant! see! yes praise us!"

not all of them are like this but do the gay guys really need to refer to there husband as "husband" 10+ times during a quest? OK we get it. It just makes it feel artificial and shoved down your throat which isn't doing ANYONE any favors.

The heterosexual couples do not refer to the other as "wife" or "husband" over and over again. It is obvious it was done this way to prove they are tolerant which in my opinion is almost as bad as being intolerant. Saying asians are good at math is still racist, for example.

Diaboli

Ulvich wrote: »

I ran into a lesbian in the Hollow City. I think she was selling glyphs. I can't remember, though.

The Khajiit, I think

Diaboli

Hey, I just thought about it. I would like to see a hermaphrodite Argonian build from CG. It's totally feasible, I would play one. I enjoy playing an Argonian because I could never be one in real life, it would be nice to be able to explore the perspective of something different in a fantasy setting.

Additionally, while sure there is a normal amount of same sex relationships, it doesn't seem like there is a transgender representation. I mean, come on, we have a costume slot, right?

Surinen

Corithna wrote: »

One such chain of quests is in AD at the college of Aldmeri propriety. By the resolution of the chain you hear denouncements of such behavior for what it is, villainous. As should all such behavior the exhibits bigotry, racism, homophobia, etc. I genuinely like the fact that such negative attitudes are handled in the manner that I've seen so far. Recognized as existing, denounced as what it is, but also shown as the rare exception and not the general rule of society.

public denunciation made by the Thalmor just to calm idiot named ayrenn (a puppet who got her crown thanks to the Thalmor). more of show than anything else. you do not expect that lesser races will be treated with the same care as infinite in their wisdom Altmer

chairenn

Not taking part in the debate, I'm just here to say how happy I am that there's LGBT representation in this game. I'm LGBT and female, and it makes me glad to play in an environment where (strong) women and sexual minorities are not excluded.

Rosveen

Srugzal wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

There is racism in TES, even though it's not accepted in real life. There is slavery in TES, even though it's not accepted in real life. There are wars in TES, even though they aren't accepted in real life. So, because of lore and realism, I don't like that there are gays in ESO.

One of the quests that I found really touching was one that a lot of people have made fun of, and that was the Argonian woman who felt that her whole life she had been a Crocodile trapped in an Argonian's body. The quest gave you the choice of helping her find her true nature, or not. I found it quite moving. A crocodile makes an awesome tank, too.

This is awesome. It's in EP, right? I need to go play more EP.

Laura wrote: »

Wow this thread is still going on? I'm guessing it hasn't been closed so that they can prove they are tolerant.

I wouldn't mind the quests at all except that they feel like "hey look at me were tolerant! see! yes praise us!"

not all of them are like this but do the gay guys really need to refer to there husband as "husband" 10+ times during a quest? OK we get it. It just makes it feel artificial and shoved down your throat which isn't doing ANYONE any favors.

The heterosexual couples do not refer to the other as "wife" or "husband" over and over again. It is obvious it was done this way to prove they are tolerant which in my opinion is almost as bad as being intolerant. Saying asians are good at math is still racist, for example.

I don't share your point of view, but you know, it makes me happy that some LGBT people and friends feel so secure that they think there's too much attention paid to gay issues. We've come a long way.

Milanna

Laura wrote: »

Wow this thread is still going on? I'm guessing it hasn't been closed so that they can prove they are tolerant.

I wouldn't mind the quests at all except that they feel like "hey look at me were tolerant! see! yes praise us!"

not all of them are like this but do the gay guys really need to refer to there husband as "husband" 10+ times during a quest? OK we get it. It just makes it feel artificial and shoved down your throat which isn't doing ANYONE any favors.

The heterosexual couples do not refer to the other as "wife" or "husband" over and over again. It is obvious it was done this way to prove they are tolerant which in my opinion is almost as bad as being intolerant. Saying asians are good at math is still racist, for example.

@Laura, it is Artificial.

All of it.

The heterosexual content as well.
That is probably why it feels artificial.

It doesn´t mean they shouldn´t be inclusive.
The alternative (as a few seem to prefer) would be to completly ignore diversity. No cross-race relationships, no cross-sex relationships, no cross-faction experiences.

THAT I would call artificial. Artificial and empty.

Allyah

Laura wrote: »

Wow this thread is still going on? I'm guessing it hasn't been closed so that they can prove they are tolerant. [...]

I reported it but so far nothing. Oh, well.

In case anyone wants an all-inclusive couple quest thread...I've re-posted a slightly different thread. Hoping this one survives. I'll be interested to know what excuse could be used to close it down.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/93682/quests-about-couples?new=1

Anyone is welcome. ^^

Laura

Milanna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Wow this thread is still going on? I'm guessing it hasn't been closed so that they can prove they are tolerant.

I wouldn't mind the quests at all except that they feel like "hey look at me were tolerant! see! yes praise us!"

not all of them are like this but do the gay guys really need to refer to there husband as "husband" 10+ times during a quest? OK we get it. It just makes it feel artificial and shoved down your throat which isn't doing ANYONE any favors.

The heterosexual couples do not refer to the other as "wife" or "husband" over and over again. It is obvious it was done this way to prove they are tolerant which in my opinion is almost as bad as being intolerant. Saying asians are good at math is still racist, for example.

@Laura, it is Artificial.

All of it.

The heterosexual content as well.
That is probably why it feels artificial.

It doesn´t mean they shouldn´t be inclusive.
The alternative (as a few seem to prefer) would be to completly ignore diversity. No cross-race relationships, no cross-sex relationships, no cross-faction experiences.

THAT I would call artificial. Artificial and empty.

d... did you even read? i'm not saying they shouldn't be there. what is your problem?

The problem that I brought up is that they do everything they can to show you HEY this is a gay quest! check it out! and the characters will continuously do whatever they can to get your attention that they are gay. it isn't necessary. (hey husband/wife this is my husband/wife hello husband/wife husband/wfe did you know thats my husband/wife?) This only happens on THESE quests.

My son is gay I have no issue with it being there you missed my point -COMPLETELY

nudel

Rosveen wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

One of the quests that I found really touching was one that a lot of people have made fun of, and that was the Argonian woman who felt that her whole life she had been a Crocodile trapped in an Argonian's body. The quest gave you the choice of helping her find her true nature, or not. I found it quite moving. A crocodile makes an awesome tank, too.

This is awesome. It's in EP, right? I need to go play more EP.

DC quest in Stormhaven to be exact.

Rosveen

nudel wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

One of the quests that I found really touching was one that a lot of people have made fun of, and that was the Argonian woman who felt that her whole life she had been a Crocodile trapped in an Argonian's body. The quest gave you the choice of helping her find her true nature, or not. I found it quite moving. A crocodile makes an awesome tank, too.

This is awesome. It's in EP, right? I need to go play more EP.

DC quest in Stormhaven to be exact.

Oh. Thanks, that will be easier to find. I'll send my crafting alt on an adventure.

Nathair

Laura wrote: »

The problem that I brought up is that they do everything they can to show you HEY this is a gay quest! check it out! and the characters will continuously do whatever they can to get your attention that they are gay. it isn't necessary. (hey husband/wife this is my husband/wife hello husband/wife husband/wfe did you know thats my husband/wife?) This only happens on THESE quests.

I assume you have done word counts and statistical analyses to show that, right? I ask because I have seen a lot of quests which attempt to personalize the plight of the NPC by making the relationship between the quest-giver and the quest target very prominent. "They've taken my daughter!" and "Oh my poor father, what will I do now?" and similar quests are very common. I would suggest that if LGBT relationship references seem more prominent than all the other relationship references the game uses to try to "bring to life" its quests and NPCs then that seeming originates between the monitor and the chair, not in the actual dialogue.

Thechemicals

Someone is tracking this stuff to an obsessive level. Trying to put myself in a mindframe where i would track hetero quests in the same manner...nope i cant.

silent88b14_ESO

I like that LGBT quests are matter-of-fact. The quality of the tale is significant, the gender of the characters of the tale is not. I dislike the tendency of the thread, however, to extol the romantic orientation of the characters of the tale as so significant that the quality of story-telling is overshadowed. Spotlighting romantic orientation, positive or negative, is discriminatory. Positive or negative are equally antithetical to the objective of equality between individuals. Castigating or lauding a 'type' of person are equally prejudicial.

What is important should, IMV, be the quality of the tale.

sdunn0417b14_ESO

BAHAHA THIS IS A GAME!!!! Why is there so much hurt feelings and debate. Who cares if there are LBGT quests? Seriously, get it together. This thread is entertaining to the point of seeing what the world really cares about lmao! Do yourselves a favor peeps. Play the game and quit giving it so much thought on how it "impacts" your real lives. Jeebus.....

Lovely

luizterra23 wrote: »

I totally support the LGBT quests, but I feel that something is lacking: Where are the poligamic NPCs?

Aren't Orcs poligamic? With their multiple wives? I seem to see them all over the place.

Milanna

Laura wrote: »

d... did you even read? i'm not saying they shouldn't be there. what is your problem?

The problem that I brought up is that they do everything they can to show you HEY this is a gay quest! check it out! and the characters will continuously do whatever they can to get your attention that they are gay. it isn't necessary. (hey husband/wife this is my husband/wife hello husband/wife husband/wfe did you know thats my husband/wife?) This only happens on THESE quests.

My son is gay I have no issue with it being there you missed my point -COMPLETELY

@Laura
I did not mean to imply you were one of those who didn´t want those quests. That was not my intention. I was only giving you my opinion on your notion of it being artificial. Because I DID read your post. .

To an extent I agree, that the in-your-face this is a homosexual quest is too obvious, but on the other hand, maybe it does serve a purpose. It has certainly upset a few narrow-minded individuals who would rather have a gay-free existence. That makes me smile.

I understand that I could have explained it better. I did not miss your point however, and please, if you disagree with this, I think you will, try to remain calm.

Silestia

I quite liked the quest in reapers march where the Khajiit almost got sold into slavery at a gambling den because he was trying to make money to impress his boyfriend enough so that they could get married.

yodased

Rosveen wrote: »

Actually, I've seen more lesbians than gays.

Isn't that the same thing??

Nathair

sdunn0417b14_ESO wrote: »

BAHAHA THIS IS A GAME!!!! Why is there so much hurt feelings and debate. Who cares if there are LBGT quests?

I do. I care because back when I was born being gay was still a felony in every single state in the US. In Canada gay men were, according to the law, dangerous criminal psychopaths risking permanent incarceration if discovered. Now same sex marriages are casually included in our entertainment media and the vast majority of people who encounter it just roll right on by without even noticing. That is worth noting and celebrating.

sdunn0417b14_ESO wrote: »

Play the game and quit giving it so much thought on how it "impacts" your real lives. Jeebus.....

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the games we play (books we read, movies we watch, etc.) don't impact our lives and our culture or that we just shouldn't pay attention to the fact. Either way I could not possibly disagree more.

Allyah

Milanna wrote: »

[...]It has certainly upset a few narrow-minded individuals who would rather have a gay-free existence. That makes me smile.
[...]

The irony of you calling others narrow-minded while you are being narrow-minded makes me smile.

Aluluei

Rosveen wrote: »

A 'nightflower' who said that the men's talk of swords bores her and she'd rather see a beautifully filigreed sheath *ahem*

Ooh, I found the lady in question! That's quite an... interesting... establishment she works at. Several of the other employees and customers have amusing dialog too. My favorite was the pair who say (customer, outraged tone) "Do you mind?!?!" and (employee, sultry) "You'll have to wait your turn, my lovely."

silent88b14_ESO

In time cultures change. In cases, a culture will change faster than some of the people in that culture. Your culture says one thing is right... but that doesn't mean it is right in another culture. It is a kind of ethnocentrism, a bias, even a bigotry and my friend it always works BOTH ways. If you desire tolerance, be tolerant.

Nathair

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

If you desire tolerance, be tolerant.

Be tolerant of intolerance? Er, no. As Rawls pointed out (echoing Popper before him) our tolerance of intolerance must end when the security of others or of our "institutions of liberty" is infringed upon or threatened.

zaria

Aluluei wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Actually, I've seen more lesbians than gays.

Why am I not noticing these things? Hmm... I think if I were an Argonian my name would be Skips-Quest-Dialog... could be something to do with that.

LoL, had they been smart they would put in a few traps like an quest marker at a world boss at top of map. However you could also resolve the quest with talking to the npc next to quest giver.
Both ways would work but one would be easier.

Singular

Ahnjil wrote: »

Jadakin wrote: »

What I think is awesome is that while the thread brings light to the quests, ZoS nor many at large felt the need to. We are FINALLY getting to the point where it's like - oh it's a same sex relationship - <shrug> on to the next quest. I think that's fantastic. So I agree with the OP, but partly because ZoS didn't make a big deal about doing it and even more that the community seems (for the most part) accepting of it as well.

I don't. Not because I fear gays, but I don't think they fit into a medieval setting.
Players should be allowed gay-marriage of course, but seeing npcs in gay-marriage
is immersion-breaking and takes me from the gaming experience. I don't want Tamriel to be part of the real-life quarrel (right word?)of gays being accepted or not.

Same sex sexual behavior is found in every culture and existed throughout human history. It most certainly was regularly present in medieval Europe.

Greenberg (1988) provides an interesting history of same sex sexual behavior in the Catholic church throughout the middle ages. Basically, it was so common that at the funeral of one rather zealous anti-homosexual bishop, a different bishop remarked "oh, good, now we can safely go back to buggery."

The acceptance of SSSB also varies throughout history and cross culturally. It was fully normal in medieval Japan - most of the romantic novels from this time period involve men with teenage boys.

I could go on and on but suffice it to say, you are simply incorrect. Same sex sexual behavior predates humanity and has existed in humanity since humans first evolved.

@Jadakin - well said!