Veteran Dungeons are not fun and badly designed! (WAY TOO HARD)

Nina

Not that I am at any level to play veteran dungeons, but a game that does not have accessible "endgame" (though, is this endgame in ESO?) will notice that surprisingly few players end up experiencing and enjoying the content. Sure, challenges can be fun (I personally think pug-groups in the normal dungeons are challenging), but if the step from casual to elitist is to great will it be hard to recruit to that content.

Since people refer to WoW and I do not remember the exact numbers, but something like 5% or less, got to experience blackwing's lair and molten core pre TBC. Something like 2-3% did beat the content.

That creates a few things: Waste of resources that is limited to a very small part of the community and a big gap among the players.

So, even if some of the raids got more mechanics and challenges in TBC, was things more accessible and thus also more worthwhile use of developer-resources. WotLK probably did it even better, imo.

But can we ever get enough? I don't think so.

I must say for my own sake that I find the horrible LFG and locked group dungeon solutions with XP/quest once to be a bigger game-breaker, but perhaps that is just a matter of time.

LonePirate

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

I think everyone should have the opportunity to be Emperor and that is clearly not the case at all.

I stopped reading here.
The opportunity is there, for everyone.
You want everything handed without effort, and everyone disagreeing is, of course, an "elitist".

The opportunity is not there at all. Emperorship in some campaigns never changes factions, thus eliminating 2/3rds of players in that campaign from ever having the opportunity to become Emperor. You can be the best player imaginable and top the leaderboard by a mile; but if you do not belong to a campaign where Emperorship rotates between the factions, then you will never become Emperor. In what way is that having the opportunity to become Emperor? How is that anything but a punishment for someone's hard work?

Then there is the situation where guilds are rotating Emperors between their ranks to boost everyone's stats thus reducing the opportunities for people not in that guild to become Emperor. Again, where is the opportunity there?

If you have not recognized these problems with the current Emperor opportunities, then you have not been paying attention.

Gisgo

Dude emperorship is something you deserve.
By either being a super player or a super nerd, or both, but you have to deserve it.
We will never be the emperor, but if we REALLY wanted to, we could try.
Get over it, its not a big deal, in fact its not an issue, like at all.
If its a problem for you, its because you are making a problem of it; because some people LIKES to complain, but the DEVs shouldnt listen to them.

Pojunarf

GreatPlayer is a troll in my eyes, hence I won't consider his posts.

About the veteran access to dungeons: at first I was disappointed too. Of course only having 3 dungeons for 5 veteran ranks seems not enough, especially when they only loot VR5 items (and very rarely at that). But when you reach VR10 you'll be happy to have more dungeons of your level. VR1 dungeons wouldn't be appealing for a VR10 group: easy and with useless loot.

LonePirate

It is not an issue for me because I have no interest in becoming Emperor as I stated above. I spend less than an hour a week doing PVP activities. It is not my thing. My issue is that even with hard work, people can top the leaderboards and be the best player imaginable but they will never become Emperor no matter how hard they try due to the mechanics of campaigns and the concerted efforts of other players in other factions who are inferior individually. Everyone should be concerned by this.

Gisgo

LonePirate wrote: »

It is not an issue for me because I have no interest in becoming Emperor as I stated above.

This is like every emperorship whining thread starts: "i have no interest in becoming Emperor"; and then starts the whining.

If you didnt care, you wouldnt bother posting about it.

People wants to be Emperor, Veteran, Hero and Champion without actually doing anything, by just being online.
Am i the only one happy to be a slightly above average NB doing his thing? Thats all i care after a day of work. I will leave emperorship to no lifers. I suggest you to do the same and play happy.

martinhpb16_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

I'm currently VR1 with 99% of game time spent in solo gameplay without the benefit of questing or dungeon running with other people. Hard work has gotten me to where I am so don't talk to me about me about wanting this game to be easier when I have not made any such claim.

And there you have it, we see this time and time again, a solo orientated player wanting challenging group content to be dumbed down so that absolutely anyone can do it easily. Please accept there needs to be content for all
play styles not content that everyone can achieve, including players who don't group and therefore do not appreciate the niceties of group-play.

Its not about being elitist. Are you being elitist because you want to solo? No, its your playstyle. Imagine if all the solo content was taken from the game and made into group quests and vet dungeons.

LonePirate

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

martinhpb16_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

Again - exactly, in other words content for guilds that will strive, manipulate, fight and hustle for that position - Just like a real Emperor !

If you make everything accessible to everyone the game will become a bland sideshow of itself.

LonePirate

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

Again - exactly, in other words content for guilds that will strive, manipulate, fight and hustle for that position - Just like a real Emperor !

If you make everything accessible to everyone the game will become a bland sideshow of itself.

And you think that what you're advocating - which alienates and infuriates players so much that it drives them away from the game - is the preferred solution? What I support will help sustain this game's lifespan because of its broad appeal. What you support only hastens the game's demise by catering to a very small subset of the player base. Do you really prefer a dead game designed for a few or a living game that pleases a very wide swath of the population? That choice is easy for anyone capable of rational thought.

Laura

this is how I hear the OP as I read this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZXNMs8D-Ow

(by the way I'm a 48 year old woman with a full time job, two kids, severe arthritis, that heals these things just fine. It is not overly difficult you just need to change how you approach them THEY ARE NOT DIFFICULT you are just approaching them wrong Think about your pulls and think about the bosses just because you can't ignore mechanics and cheese through doesn't mean its hard.)

Kroin

GreatPlayer wrote: »

Kroin wrote: »

After reading that i decided to try that.
So yesterday with a random group VT2-3, we cleared Spindelclutch with 3 wipes, cant agree with you, and btw if you allready in VT lvls you play alot.

are you sure its not a normal dungeon? pls post video! also gettting whipped 100 times just to complete 1 dungeon is NOT FUN!

Woud have been quite hard for a normal dungeon, but i was lying a bit the tank was with me so we only had 2 random DD's that were also really good.
In VET Dungeons everybody need to play good, if one DD sucks you can quite right away, also every DD need to be able to be a meele or a range deal single or aoe damage.

As a healer i need to know when i need to dps with my stamia and when not, a tank needs to keep the aggro of the boss and still dodge his skills like a boss.

So every role has to play better than the did in other game standing in fire or some aoe is a nogo and will wipe the group really fast.

Nina

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

It is not an issue for me because I have no interest in becoming Emperor as I stated above.

This is like every emperorship whining thread starts: "i have no interest in becoming Emperor"; and then starts the whining.

If you didnt care, you wouldnt bother posting about it.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
-Martin Niemöller

martinhpb16_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

Again - exactly, in other words content for guilds that will strive, manipulate, fight and hustle for that position - Just like a real Emperor !

If you make everything accessible to everyone the game will become a bland sideshow of itself.

And you think that what you're advocating - which alienates and infuriates players so much that it drives them away from the game - is the preferred solution? What I support will help sustain this game's lifespan because of its broad appeal. What you support only hastens the game's demise by catering to a very small subset of the player base. Do you really prefer a dead game designed for a few or a living game that pleases a very wide swath of the population? That choice is easy for anyone capable of rational thought.

I just left a dying game because of comments like this, the creeping vanilla of making everything too easy and accessible is killing lotro, so that now it only appeals to a certain type of player. So I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

SuperScrubby

I agree. Usually hardcore players are the ones that keep playing, not the casuals. Also if a game doesn't find its niche then people are more willing to jump ship for another game.

Niche games are continuing to go strong. FFXI still has a player base even after being out for like 12 years. Eve is a great example. When developers find a niche and cater to them, they'll have a successful game. By creating a mish mash of "everything for everyone" the game fails at all points because it really doesn't cater to everyone. It just kinda turns into mush.

Imagine it like this. An all you can eat buffet. The food is never amazing but it offers a large selection. But because the food isn't very good everything starts to taste the same. So yes you can choose the mashed potatoes or the salisbury steak but you realize that it's not that good because they taste almost like the mac and cheese. Point is, while selection is good, there's a reason why restaurants that do a few things really well succeed and others that do everything mediocre don't. Same thing with games. While I understand the appeal to make content for everyone, you have to think about who your loyal fanbase is and whose willing to weather the storm. It's usually hardcore players with some casual's sprinkled in.

Sakiri

Phaistos wrote: »

I beat two of the three dungeons with a random group full of VR1. It is possible.
I agree it is a bit of a downer to get loot (if at all) that is only wearable at VR5, but I can live with that.

I disagree with the difficulty. The dungeons are hard and that is a good thing. Figure it out, play smart and enjoy the experience!

I'm sorry, "Play smart" doesn't match up well with "Pick up group", and I don't do random groups.

I won't be doing VR dungeons either. Much like how I'm not doing the normal ones now.

Gisgo wrote: »

Thats why they are called VETERAN dungeons.
No offense but maybe you arent enough of a veteran to clear them with ease.
Which is understandable the game is so new nobody is a real veteran (besides the titles we are all noobs wearing noob gear).

No, the "veteran" thing is used in the same way "heroic" is used for dungeons in WoW. It's to distinguish leveling content from endgame content. That's it.

GreatPlayer

Chryos wrote: »

LOL, dungeons too hard? Try real hardcore MMO's like EQ1, and UO back in the ways. This isn't WOW nor will we allow it to be easy like WOW. Veteran doesent mean you can do it at lvl 50 alone, you have to actually play the game. Sorry theres no mod or add-on that improves player skill! Keep it hard! Not everyone gets to play in the END GAME, and that's the way it should be, especially for a free end game exspansion.

SuperScrubby wrote: »

I agree. Usually hardcore players are the ones that keep playing, not the casuals. Also if a game doesn't find its niche then people are more willing to jump ship for another game.

Niche games are continuing to go strong. FFXI still has a player base even after being out for like 12 years. Eve is a great example. When developers find a niche and cater to them, they'll have a successful game. By creating a mish mash of "everything for everyone" the game fails at all points because it really doesn't cater to everyone. It just kinda turns into mush.

Imagine it like this. An all you can eat buffet. The food is never amazing but it offers a large selection. But because the food isn't very good everything starts to taste the same. So yes you can choose the mashed potatoes or the salisbury steak but you realize that it's not that good because they taste almost like the mac and cheese. Point is, while selection is good, there's a reason why restaurants that do a few things really well succeed and others that do everything mediocre don't. Same thing with games. While I understand the appeal to make content for everyone, you have to think about who your loyal fanbase is and whose willing to weather the storm. It's usually hardcore players with some casual's sprinkled in.

I dont agree, the majority of the people that play Guild War 2 and WoW do not play on there computer 12hrs a day, and they have other things to do. A game does not have to just cater to the few elitist player and if they do the game is dead!

GreatPlayer

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

Again - exactly, in other words content for guilds that will strive, manipulate, fight and hustle for that position - Just like a real Emperor !

If you make everything accessible to everyone the game will become a bland sideshow of itself.

And you think that what you're advocating - which alienates and infuriates players so much that it drives them away from the game - is the preferred solution? What I support will help sustain this game's lifespan because of its broad appeal. What you support only hastens the game's demise by catering to a very small subset of the player base. Do you really prefer a dead game designed for a few or a living game that pleases a very wide swath of the population? That choice is easy for anyone capable of rational thought.

I just left a dying game because of comments like this, the creeping vanilla of making everything too easy and accessible is killing lotro, so that now it only appeals to a certain type of player. So I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

No the game is not dying! It will die if it just cater to the hardcore players!

GreatPlayer

LonePirate wrote: »

My concerns with Emperorship are due to poor parameters implemented by ZOS and the manipulation of the status by factions and guilds. Player ability has very little to do with it. These structural and mechanical problems should be a concern to everyone because they weaken the game's credibility, reputation and senses of fairness and rewards for hard work. Wait until Craglorn arrives and the same structural problems arise for that system. People will take notice of it then.

I love playing this game but it has some very troubling problems besides broken quests that ZOS seems to care nothing about addressing.

I dont play PVP so I dont know!

GreatPlayer

Pojunarf wrote: »

GreatPlayer is a troll in my eyes, hence I won't consider his posts.

About the veteran access to dungeons: at first I was disappointed too. Of course only having 3 dungeons for 5 veteran ranks seems not enough, especially when they only loot VR5 items (and very rarely at that). But when you reach VR10 you'll be happy to have more dungeons of your level. VR1 dungeons wouldn't be appealing for a VR10 group: easy and with useless loot.

If you think I am a troll why are you posting in my thread, this just shows me you dont know what you are talking about! See what you are suggesting is not good dungeons design! And if you are so good pls show me a video of youself beating veteran dungeon!

GreatPlayer

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

tuntuns wrote: »

At last a game where end game is designed for elite.. Im sick of all those mmo where skilless pug group is able to own everything with ease. So OP stop crying on forums, change your build, maybe even try to find ingame mentor who will provide you with some useful tips. Get a solid group and struggle for loot.
You have to understand that casual content is for casuals. Vet is for vets. Go get some skill. Beat troubling dungeon and be proud of it.

I could understand and tolerate this viewpoint if this was a free to play game. This is a subscription game and one subscriber's monthly fee is no better or no worse than another subscriber's monthly fee.

I don't mind progressive level entry requirements; but all of this game's content should be enjoyable and accessible by all players. No portion of it except for meaningless titles or a slot on a leaderboard should be the exclusive domain of so-called elite players. It is bad enough that the Emperor skill line is out of reach for 99% of the player base. This game does not need more of this restrictive and I obtainable content:

TL;DR you want the game to be 100% easy mode.
Hence boring.

No thanks.

While my 15 bucks arent worth more than yours, yours arent worth more than mine, and the game shouldnt cater to YOUR playstyle exclusively.

There is content for everyone, veterans and newbies, and thats how i like it.

On a side note do you really think everyone should have access to the emperor skill line? I mean... seriously... just think about it.

Wrong we are not advocating easy mode! We are ado vacating two different mode for two different set of people. Also the reward should be better!

Thevenin

Hi,

I think if you lack the commitment/skill to finish optional group content, it's only natural you shouldn't complete it.
Your character is fighting some pretty frightening stuff, not picking up mushrooms in the forest. It should be hard and risky. Also, rewards are just fine.

I suggest you run back to WoW if you expect to steamroll all group content, apparently nowadays it's the game that caters to your crowd.

GreatPlayer

Sakiri wrote: »

Phaistos wrote: »

I beat two of the three dungeons with a random group full of VR1. It is possible.
I agree it is a bit of a downer to get loot (if at all) that is only wearable at VR5, but I can live with that.

I disagree with the difficulty. The dungeons are hard and that is a good thing. Figure it out, play smart and enjoy the experience!

I'm sorry, "Play smart" doesn't match up well with "Pick up group", and I don't do random groups.

I won't be doing VR dungeons either. Much like how I'm not doing the normal ones now.

Gisgo wrote: »

Thats why they are called VETERAN dungeons.
No offense but maybe you arent enough of a veteran to clear them with ease.
Which is understandable the game is so new nobody is a real veteran (besides the titles we are all noobs wearing noob gear).

No, the "veteran" thing is used in the same way "heroic" is used for dungeons in WoW. It's to distinguish leveling content from endgame content. That's it.

No! in wow all end game content have two mode! heroic and normal! pls get your fact stright!

SuperScrubby

Nobody said anything about elitist or spending 12 hours a day on the computer, I said niche.

Not to mention there is content for people that don't want to do dungeons. It's called quests. What you want is everything easy enough for you to do but then nothing challenging enough for other people. How is that a good option?

What all of these threads have in common is that they want more content for themselves when the majority of the content is already dedicated to them. It's like the solo players that want more solo content when there are tons of solo quests in this game.

Why can't the more skilled players or the pvper's get what they want even if it's not what you want? Aren't you being selfish? At this rate Zenimax is going to nerf everything into the ground since they have obviously shown that they'd rather kneejerk patch than make any meaningful changes. If this keeps up I'll probably quit before hitting vr10 or end up hitting vr10 in a week and be bored out of my mind.

GreatPlayer

SuperScrubby wrote: »

Nobody said anything about elitist or spending 12 hours a day on the computer, I said niche.

Not to mention there is content for people that don't want to do dungeons. It's called quests. What you want is everything easy enough for you to do but then nothing challenging enough for other people. How is that a good option?

What all of these threads have in common is that they want more content for themselves when the majority of the content is already dedicated to them. It's like the solo players that want more solo content when there are tons of solo quests in this game.

Why can't the more skilled players or the pvper's get what they want even if it's not what you want? Aren't you being selfish?

if you had read my post, which from your response I dont think you did, I am not asking for nerfs! AND pls read my post before commenting! THANK YOU!

SuperScrubby

GreatPlayer wrote: »

I dont agree, the majority of the people that play Guild War 2 and WoW do not play on there computer 12hrs a day, and they have other things to do. A game does not have to just cater to the few elitist player and if they do the game is dead!

Is this not your post? Oh and WoW did have plenty of players that played 12 hours a day. I don't know how it is now, but given the population size of the game I can't imagine that those people are all gone.

Krohm

All I can say is the Gatekeeper from TSW, loved it and every game should have one haha

Btw please don't nerf dungeons, let things play out for a few months, I think xp and loot needs to be looked at from what I hear from people I know doing them, to much travel to Hawaii, London and Tampa for work the past month has cut into my leveling time, I want a challenge when I get there.

Wifeaggro13

Laura wrote: »

this is how I hear the OP as I read this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZXNMs8D-Ow

(by the way I'm a 48 year old woman with a full time job, two kids, severe arthritis, that heals these things just fine. It is not overly difficult you just need to change how you approach them THEY ARE NOT DIFFICULT you are just approaching them wrong Think about your pulls and think about the bosses just because you can't ignore mechanics and cheese through doesn't mean its hard.)

agreed laura the only thing wrong is the loot scaling at this point. i am willing to fight VR 5 bosses as long as the moot is usable. also the chests and urns are spawning the orignal loot table not anything usable for veteran. they are easy and at VR 5 when the loot is usable will be ridiculously easy. the team needs to get this sorted out or the end game is in a serious condition. it will likely bore many MMo players forcing them to grind VR 5 before they can use anything they find in the dungeons

Gisgo

Nina wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

It is not an issue for me because I have no interest in becoming Emperor as I stated above.

This is like every emperorship whining thread starts: "i have no interest in becoming Emperor"; and then starts the whining.

If you didnt care, you wouldnt bother posting about it.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
-Martin Niemöller

Omg why did you have to waste such a quote on this *** argument... oh boys...

Gisgo

SuperScrubby wrote: »

Niche games are continuing to go strong. FFXI still has a player base even after being out for like 12 years. Eve is a great example. When developers find a niche and cater to them, they'll have a successful game. By creating a mish mash of "everything for everyone" the game fails at all points because it really doesn't cater to everyone. It just kinda turns into mush.

QFT. Absolute truth.