I Heard Doshia was Nerfed

AVCN

The problems with Doshia?
First, you don't get a single clear in-game clue about it being a solo dungeon. So, people will try to group and conclude its bugged. Happened to me in the beta and in the early access. Yes, Google-fu showed its solo, but hey, why not a clear in-game clue? This is a design issue, I think.

Getting some help at the zone chat? Usually most of its content is just babble. Actually its not a big surprise. Its a gaming community issue. You may even be lucky, but the odds are low. Sad but true.

She's hard and you must figure out how to hit her. Standing in front of her hitting over and over won't work and having certain skills is quite likely mandatory. My dragonknight had no AoE, so... Not a problem, IMHO. Just retreat, level up, become more skilled and come back. I fail to see a problem with that. That's what I did. Died a couple of times before beating her, but once she was defeated, it felt rewarding. Yep, gotta repeat the recipe with that damn alchemist...

Dungeon. Now, if you are, as I am, from Ebonheart pact, dungeon design is an issue. Its cramped, you can't evade and duck, you can get cornered easilly. Orbs will spawn some times too close to her, making your life harder. So, yes, this may be a design issue. She will tend to not chase you too far from her altar. No problem with that. If you were playing as Doshia in that dungeon, would you chase your oponent to an open area, where your regeneration orbs will spawn far from you?

This put, changing dungeon layout design for Ebonheart Pact would have been my option. It seems the most obvious and logical thing to do. I have no clue, however, about what else could have afected the decision. Easier to change her stats? Too many complaints about her strenght?

rager82b14_ESO

Elvent wrote: »

Meh they can keep nerfing and dumbing down the game till people start to leave for all I care, I wanted an elder scrolls experience with friends but I'm not getting that experience because of these forced solo instances/quests.

They wouldn't have to nerf anything if they would allow you to get a person to join your group to help you, it is an MMO after all, these forced solo stuff should be optional.

That way the people that want easy mode can invite a friend.

And the people that want the challenge can just go in solo = no need for nerfs.

THIS right here is what I can agree with. This is a great point, not some one crying about game turning into wow. They are looking at the problem in another way.

I agree with you, grouping is such a pain that they need to tone some things down for people who are learning. It is just how this game is.

Catches_the_Sun

The funny thing is, you hardly ever see anybody on Forums admit that they couldn't complete the encounter. My Guild chat, however, was a much different story. Multiple times a day, somebody would ask "can somebody help me kill Doshia", followed by my explanation that it is a solo instanced encounter, and the questioning player being disappointed. It seemed to me like a large number of people were asking this. As others have stated, Zenimax would have numbers that we don't have access to, and I'm sure they adjusted accordingly.

My complaint with this whole issue is the forced solo instance content. I guess I'm a little surprised to be forced into solo instances in an MMO. Doshia is an early level challenge, and might prove to be a HUGE challenge for somebody that has designed their character to be a support class, such as a light armor resto staff healer that has yet to pick up offensive abilities. Having played beta as a duo, I made this mistake then, but was able to learn from it after launch.

Of course, I beat her with my chef spoon @ level 6, so I don't know what the problem was with the rest of you noobs.

ZOS_AlanG

We're happy to have debates over content changes like this, but as always these discussions need to be kept civil and constructive. There are a lot of insults being tossed about in here, either directed at other people or general groups, and this is not acceptable for the forums.

Let's try and get this thread back on topic. If the negative behavior continues, we will lock this thread.

crush83

I can't count how many times I've heard of this Doshia referenced in chat, but I can't even remember the encounter - that's how easy it must've been.

Someone refresh my memory. When is Doshia encountered?

Enteum

crush83 wrote: »

I can't count how many times I've heard of this Doshia referenced in chat, but I can't even remember the encounter - that's how easy it must've been.

Someone refresh my memory. When is Doshia encountered?

First main boss in Fighters Guild. She captured Merric. Or was that a rhetorical question o.O I'm not sure,

crush83

Enteum wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

I can't count how many times I've heard of this Doshia referenced in chat, but I can't even remember the encounter - that's how easy it must've been.

Someone refresh my memory. When is Doshia encountered?

First main boss in Fighters Guild. She captured Merric. Or was that a rhetorical question o.O I'm not sure,

No, I really can't remember the fight, and I'm pretty far into the Fighter's Guild quest line. I just watched a YouTube video on the fight, and I still don't remember it. The fight looks incredibly simple if you just move around a little bit.

I think that's the main problem though. As another person said, people want to just rush in and mash buttons without paying attention to the AoE indicators.

Bloodsip

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Wow, just wow...

Melian

Gwarok wrote: »

All I have to say is if people are thinking Doshia is a difficult fight they are in for a surprise when they have to "Enter the Alchemist's Layer" for the Plague Bringer quest line when they hit 18.

That was a fun fight. Oh, and I died many times while I was figuring out my strategy, and I'm fine with that.

What worries me is that they said somewhere before that they base these decisions in part on how many times people are dying - which means I'm part of the problem, for being bad enough to die. I enjoy fighting bosses that can kill me, but maybe I should just stop playing altogether.

crush83

People shouldn't expect to run in and one-shot a boss. That's dumb. If people aren't dying on average 2-3 times, then that means the encounter isn't hard enough.

Melian

crush83 wrote: »

People shouldn't expect to run in and one-shot a boss. That's dumb. If people aren't dying on average 2-3 times, then that means the encounter isn't hard enough.

That's how I feel about it too, but I guess the devs don't. Even if they think 2-3 is good, well, it took me 7 attempts to kill Norion the first time and thought the thrill of finally beating him was totally worth it.

Baratan

If you don't fail a few times, there's no meaning to succeeding.

Thomas Edison would be strongly against the nerf, for sure.

Applemoth

On reflection, I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of people, particularly fans of the single-player TES games, are going to want to do the Fighter's Guild questline. For those who are not used to MMO-style boss mechanics a fight like this could seem like a frustrating block to progression, particularly as you're forced to solo it. If you really can't do it, the only option is to outlevel it, which is a very unsatisfying solution. Also, as many have said, she is early enough in the game for 'bad' skill choices to have an impact.

Now if she had been in a solo dungeon with a standalone side quest (or even just an achievement and some nice loot), there would have been no reason to nerf her because she would have been put there specifically as a challenge, and wouldn't have been getting in the way of anything much.

It's sad, because the pre-nerf encounter was well-designed in my opinion - just not very well-placed.

dpayne83_ESO

I've learned how to play my character more from failing than by succeeding. So far every encounter I've come across that I died in I chock it up to my ability, not the encounter. The encounter may be frustrating but I always tell myself there's a way to overcome this. I play a NB and when I started all I did was just tele-strike, stab, stab, stab. Because of difficult encounters I assess the room, check my skill bars, utilize weapon swapping mid-fight, dodge, etc.

I had guildies complain about groups of mobs destroying them. Because of my failures against groups of mobs I learned that if I start off with the bow skill scorched earth, swap to my dual-wield (preferred weapons of choice) go in with ambush, utilize various put-hole-in-body techniques,disappear, get back, swap to bow, lay down another scorched earth, rinse and repeat the process.

What's even better is it's amazingly fun to use in pvp. Because most people when they see an archer they think if they close the gap then the archer dies. Not many expect the archer to pop off some arrows then close the gap themselves while surrounded by an inferno on the ground.

Cogo

Zenimax, please keep adding quests just like Doshia, or simular, where simply not everyone can do it! And put some sort of level restriction on entering the encounter so highlevels can not go there and one shot it. (I had to go there at level 12 to make it!)

Its exactly this kind of challenge us players wants and needs.

And please, please, do not nerf anything just because people whine that its to hard. Nerf things that's needed or was incorrectly introduced. But NOT things that are perfectly doable if you are good/lucky/experience/natural skilled!

I also think that if the questline comes from a certain guild, it should be that "type" of class/build that would handle it best.

I am aware that this quest with Doshia is near impossible for a pure healer with no damage abilities to speak of. This is FINE. The tradeoff is for that healer to become extremely wanted in dungeons/pvp/raids etc.

Do NOT make a WoW where everyone can do everything, please!

Applemoth

Cogo wrote: »

I also think that if the questline comes from a certain guild, it should be that "type" of class/build that would handle it best.

This is a great idea, but unfortunately I don't see it happening because a lot of people (including myself, sometimes) are 'completionists' in MMOs.

I hesitated before joining the Fighter's Guild with my sorcerer, but with all the talk of people being underlevelled I thought it might be best to pick up as many quests as I could. (As it turns out I was wrong, and am always slightly overlevelled). It would be great if the NPC guilds were a bit more differentiated from each other, and there were real consequences to the choice of which to join.

nudel

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Doshia is NOT a poorly designed encounter. Dying is not equal to failure. Failure is giving up on the encounter completely, not stumbling a few times while learning. How many times did you fall off your bike when learning to ride? Lots right. Did you eventually learn? If you still can't ride your bike....then and only then have you failed.

Anyone who tells you that dying means you failed is either trolling (l2p n00b and the like) or really doesn't like to be challenged in anything.

AlchemyDevil

I wonder if it's possible for solo quests to implement a difficulty slider? For those players that are unwilling to take the time to learn the fight or learn game mechanics they could turn the difficulty down to easy and the penalty would be no loot or exp for the encounter. That way all the people that actually enjoy a challenge and want to become better players would not be affected by all this nerfing.

soulclaw

nudel wrote: »

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Doshia is NOT a poorly designed encounter. Dying is not equal to failure. Failure is giving up on the encounter completely, not stumbling a few times while learning. How many times did you fall off your bike when learning to ride? Lots right. Did you eventually learn? If you still can't ride your bike....then and only then have you failed.

Anyone who tells you that dying means you failed is either trolling (l2p n00b and the like) or really doesn't like to be challenged in anything.

Sorry, requiring someone to die multiple times is just inept and lazy, it trivializes death. Death is failure in a role playing game, it should not be just another game mechanic to be used. In addition, if you read the post you quoted, my point is that sending someone in clueless and requiring them to die to learn the special rules is what I object to, not the difficulty. I beat Doshia pre-nerf once I understood what was happening. I don't object to being killed in a difficult fight and having to try it again.

rwelshmub17_ESO

I finally took her out at lvl 10 as a redguard NB. It took me to add silver bolts as an ability and it was that difference that made it possible. Also I started using a razor orbweaver which made an old guy more flexible lol. I just kept stunning her with silver bolts rolling past her hit her with siphoning abilities to keep me healed better. As she was stunned I found it was enough to hit the globes with arrows. Even ten it was a 15-20 minute fight. That was a couple weeks ago gotta saw I was singing "Doshia's Dead, Doshia is dead" and my wife was laughing at me, middle aged man celebrating because he finally killed a virtual monster. It's funny I feel good that I was able to finish that fight before she was nerfed.

I said this in other forums I still think the player should have the option to group or solo in all aspects of the game though.

YourNameHere

dpayne83_ESO wrote: »

My only question, if this is true, is why? I mean, if she was so hard how am I at my level and current point in the Fighters Guild quest line? Or other people for that matter? Are players not aware there are actual mechanics for that fight? Doshia is a breathe of fresh air for low level encounters because she required more than just "Go in and punch her a bunch of times without fear of dying" to beat her. I died once to her, told myself I wasn't going to whine or quit, and went and beat her on the second try.

I can tell you for one of the factions it is not easy.

The room is cramped to fight her in, boxes and environment to get stuck on. You can't pull her out far enough as she leashes back, her healing orbs spawn on TOP of her, so no way to hit them, her abilities stun locked you so guess what .. all healed.

Now this was when I fought her under the Ebonheart faction. Fighting her in the Daggerfall was a larger area, more moving room, enough time to aim and get the orbs .... I killed her easy.

So yes, there was difficulties in the fight NOT player related.

nudel

soulclaw wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Doshia is NOT a poorly designed encounter. Dying is not equal to failure. Failure is giving up on the encounter completely, not stumbling a few times while learning. How many times did you fall off your bike when learning to ride? Lots right. Did you eventually learn? If you still can't ride your bike....then and only then have you failed.

Anyone who tells you that dying means you failed is either trolling (l2p n00b and the like) or really doesn't like to be challenged in anything.

Sorry, requiring someone to die multiple times is just inept and lazy, it trivializes death. Death is failure in a role playing game, it should not be just another game mechanic to be used. In addition, if you read the post you quoted, my point is that sending someone in clueless and requiring them to die to learn the special rules is what I object to, not the difficulty. I beat Doshia pre-nerf once I understood what was happening. I don't object to being killed in a difficult fight and having to try it again.

Unless you're playing a game with permadeath, death is not failure in an RPG or any other game. Multiple deaths does not trivialize death. Respawns trivialize death. But I don't see you here asking ZOS to ban respawns. Since this game chooses to use respawns (not something I'm asking to be changed), death and even frequent death is part of the game. It's something they even designed for. That's why there are wayshrines all over the place. That's why there are soul gems for resurrecting. That's why there are Forward Camps in Cyrodiil. Because death happens and it is expected to happen.

TheGrandAlliance

dpayne83_ESO wrote: »

My only question, if this is true, is why?

Because she is a evil ******* b itch that deserved to get /bitchslapped.

'nough said.