I Heard Doshia was Nerfed

Mosti

Seraseth wrote: »

From what I've heard it was also a far more difficult fight in EP because of the room layout and the clutter in the room. The same fight should never be more difficult for 1 faction because of environment, but they should have fixed the room, not nerfed her.

I am EP and did this fight, I can say this is not true, plenty of room, just need to understand the mechanics

rager82b14_ESO

Sarenia wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sarenia wrote: »

Next nerf will be that boss that insta-kills you if you don't run to the guardians.

Because people are too stupid to listen to the quest dialogue that tells you to seek their aid, beforehand.

Childish remarks like that just makes the community look worse.

You say childish. I say cynical.

I'm tired of being right about games becoming too easy over time. I want to be wrong.

But I won't be. Feel free to quote this in a year.

Games tend to get easier once you play them. Game does not have to be super tough to be fun for many players. Even if elder scrolls added content that was super tough for players, over time players will master the game and get it done. Things become easier and easier. Mind you a low level mob should not be subject to this stuff. Like many said.

Seraseth

Sarenia wrote: »

Next nerf will be that boss that insta-kills you if you don't run to the guardians.

Is that the one they call out in german for you to come over to them? Because when they give you quest instructions in a different language, not exactly the user's fault.

Korusus

KariTR wrote: »

Korusus wrote: »

The problem with Doshia is that kind of fight being introduced at such a low level. Level 8 is infancy in MMO terms. Those of us that are familiar with typical MMO trick boss fights had an upper-hand because after you die once or twice you figure out the "trick" , but for people who are not used to those kinds of fights or don't have a lot of MMO experience...nothing really prepares you for it in the game before her. I agree that its a good check on your build and equipment...but not at that level when you haven't really had a chance to even play around with your build and figure out what works and what doesn't. Better to do it in the ~ level 20 range when at least you have an opportunity to change your build or find decent equipment.

I don't agree. I hate games that make you level significantly before you meet any challenge. 8 or 80 makes no difference and if the player is completely new to games and mechanics (it isn't just MMOs that have challenging encounters), then they can come back at a higher level.

Besides, at level 8 you already have points to spare if you need to pick up a new skill or two to help combat Doshia.

I died a little when I read the patch notes, but I am not surprised. I bought the game so I could play at launch, knowing if I wait a month or two a lot of things will be made less challenging and so the game would be less fun for me. I am disappointed it is happening so soon though. And believe me, I am below average skill when it comes to game combat.

You're undermining the argument for why Doshia should be a challenge. If the idea is she's a build-check, then saying it doesn't matter because you should already have skill points to spare weakens that argument. Try to imagine you're brand new to MMOs -- maybe you spent your skill points on crafting too early? Maybe you put points into the armor lines too early? Maybe you failed to realize that you level up skill lines by having a skill from each line on your bar or by wearing a piece of each armor too late and you've locked yourself into one skill line? It's unreasonable to expect a fresh level 8 to know all of these things.

Most MMOs require you hit level cap before you are challenged, be glad ESO is different. Just don't hate the devs for nerfing a level 8...did I mention she's level 8?...boss.

Applemoth

Seraseth wrote: »

Is that the one they call out in german for you to come over to them? Because when they give you quest instructions in a different language, not exactly the user's fault.

I found that whole chain quite funny, because the guardians make out that you really need their help, and I walked it without having a clue what they were telling me during the fights. I guess I must have been doing something right.

Inversus

I didn't like the part where she traps you and does her healing at the same time, but as long as the trap doesn't happen during the healing, it's a good boss.

dpayne83_ESO

It's not the fact that they nerfed Doshia, it's more the fact they nerfed an encounter that opens peoples eyes to the mechanics of a boss fight early on. Every main quest and faction quest has a boss fight that usually involves a mechanic of some sort. It's all about learning the fight, even if it means dying in the process. I raided in WoW. The only way we knew about a boss fight when a new raid launched was to read up on the public test realm experiences if we didn't do it ourselves.

There was a boss fight later on in another quest line that I died to 5 times before I beat him. Every time I dead I would gauge how I went into the fight and my skill line up. I would watch to see if anything spawned at certain health percentages or was it random. I watched to see if there was a rotation or if the skills were summoned in random order. In the end what saved me was the fact he didn't really move from his spot. So when I went low on health I would break line of sight and stay low until my health got up to a point where I would go in and hit him some more. He eventually succumbed to my repeated stabbings and my victory felt all the more sweeter for it.

I've played MMO's for years, my first being EQ. I walked into EQ dumbfounded by the difficulty because I didn't have any experience with MMO's before and nothing was there to hold your hand back in the day. It was all about exploring and talking to NPC's then trying to use the right word in conversation to start a quest. All I'm saying is there's always a way to overcome a challenge, though it can be irritating. I apologize for the people who respond to "L2P" or "noob" in chat because it's not a very good representation of the community and there are many friendly people that are willing to help.

rangerluna375

All Ill say is this:

My char is level 26, and Doshia is, by far, the hardest boss I have encountered to this point in playing the game. Not even a contest.

I have ran everything at level or below level. I have only missed two quests that I can think, that had to be abandoned due to bugs, and I haven't ran the sewers yet.

Considering the content Im running through at the moment, a level 8 boss shouldn't be THAT tough in comparison, especially that early in the game.

I am not saying that a nerf is warranted either way.

Najarati

Funny (to me, I suppose) story about my trials with Doshia in the beta:

POTENTIAL SPOILERS

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When I first encountered Doshia I was running a two-hand Templar build. Given the level range of the quest, I figured she'd be a pretty easy fight so when the moment came to face her I charged straight in, swinging wildly.

Between regular swings (I had the AoE passive on two-hand), a heal or two, and cleave, I trounced her. I didn't even notice the bubbles the first time because my swings were hitting them while I was hitting her. "No big deal," I thought; until I tried again with my next character...

When I encountered Doshia a second time, I was running a one-hand and shield Nightblade build. Remembering how it went the first time, I charged right in... and she destroyed me! I didn't know why at first.

"Why is she healing up? She didn't heal up before! Did they change the encounter?" Eventually, I realized it was the bubbles. The difference? I had only single-target attacks this time so I wasn't inadvertently hitting those bubbles. This made the fight much harder. Also, I was playing a different faction and her lair was much more cramped than before so I had to be quick about stopping and targeting the bubbles individually before they reached her.

Long story short, your build really can determine the difficulty of this fight--from trivial to genuinely difficult.

Greydog

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

First time I saw an orb heal her I knew what had to be done. After finding that they actually healed me too I built a strategy.

It's a tough fight if you can't think on your feet. It's very enjoyable if you can.

koldmiser

My Templar died the first time I tried. The 2nd time I beat her, but it was tough. At the same time my son tried on his Nightblade and she wiped the floor with him 5 times in a row (hate MMO's that force solo play like this quest as a side note). We asked in chat for suggestions and got the typical "learn to play", "roll a diff class", etc.
Finally I looked on line and saw a video with tips that helped him after 3 more tries.
If you are going for force players to solo a boss it shouldn't take that much work. You shouldn't have to stop playing and look online or wait until you out level it.

Korah_Eaglecry

dpayne83_ESO wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

While many of us may find her easy enough once we figured her out, the Devs might have access to more data than we do. There really may have been a bottleneck at her for people of the level the quest was designed for. There may be a decent reason for the nerf.

I also don't know how much of a nerf she got. 5%? 10%? Was it enough to really even notice for most of us?

It didn't say. It just said she had her powers reduced. But even then if someone was having an issue; how hard is it to just ask in zone for some advice? I mean, that's what the community is for. I have no problems offering advice for encounters I have completed. Heck I would help them fight her if it wasn't for the fact it's a solo instance. And to be honest, she's not even the hardest encounter for the Fighters Guild. I won't mention any names :P.

Pulling her into a larger area was a useful and smart tactic. But it shouldnt of been the only tactic that worked....Considering the space shes in when you first encounter her. And the healing cycle. Its odd that she was even up on the platform in the first place. Its not hard to figure out the orbs are healing her. But in such a small space you didnt have much time to react to them. Pulling her out in the open worked, but it was a work around and clearly not something the Devs intended to be how it worked.

Hakoke

Sarenia wrote: »

Next nerf will be that boss that insta-kills you if you don't run to the guardians.

Because people are too stupid to listen to the quest dialogue that tells you to seek their aid, beforehand.

I beat that boss. It was a pain, the voice overs where in german and I was to occupied with trying to kill the guy to read the text of what they were saying. But I beat him after about 2 tries, didn't realize what I was supposed to do to survive until a few days after the fact.

Still felt really rewarding to have stomped him though.

Edit: Beating Doshia was an awesome moment. I died to her once, but after that I figured out what need to be done. Beat her with my 2h nightblade. She was one of the first bosses in a video game that it actually felt good to have beaten her, it actually took effort.

I can't really comment on the change, as I don't really care to repeat content once I've beaten it.

Melian

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

God no. I don't want to kill bosses on the first attempt. It's anticlimactic.

Sarenia

Seraseth wrote: »

Pulling her into a larger area was a useful and smart tactic. But it shouldnt of been the only tactic that worked

It wasn't.

Did it with a light armored, staff-wielding sorceress at level 8 or 9. Didn't pull her anywhere. Didn't even use any potions or food, and my gear was like level 6. No optimal build either, I just picked whatever skills looked appealing.

I got in melee range of her, killed her orbs, killed her, finished with almost full health.

Not bragging. I'm not even that good at games. This just really wasn't a hard fight at all. It was slightly challenging, enjoyable, but not hard. And there certainly was more than one tactical approach to it.

Melian

MysticAura wrote: »

It's rather funny that before the nerf, the only threads I could ever see on her, said how she was too strong. So they fix her, and now all you see is people complaining and trying to say that only crappy players would've had an issue with her.

Yeah, because people are always posting about stuff they like.

Actually, I sent /feedback in game the first time I did it saying I liked the fight and "please don't nerf!", but I doubt many people who liked the fight did so.

rawne1980b16_ESO

soulclaw wrote: »

Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

Demons Souls, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 just called .... they said you lie.

circilion

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Loxy37 wrote: »

Wrong on all counts. What you have just said is what is wrong with 90% of current mmo players and what caused wow to morph into carebares online!

Clueless as ever. Content for all players is how a MMO wins. Wow knows what it is doing when it comes to MMOs. So if this game learns from wow that is a good thing.

Um no..

The last thing the world needs is another theme park hand holding meat grinder WoW copy.

WoW did a fantastic job of creating a fun limited game that appealed to the masses. but I'm sick of WoW, I quit playing almost 6 years ago and almost every game since has been like it. Eve being pretty well the only exception.

For the love of God, do not try to make this into a brain-dead limited option adolescent WoW lookalike. because rankly there are already 8 other MMO's out there that are already doing it.

Greydog

But then one could always draw upon what WoW did right and leave all the useless leftovers behind.

You learn from all your experiences, not just the ones you like.

carfob16_ESO

Doshia was an amazing fight, I didn't expect dying 7 times in a row at that level before making it. I had to go review my approach, try out different tactics, different skills before finally getting her down. It felt like 1-man raiding and I absolutely loved it.
Unfortunately that's one of the high points so far, none of the encounters since then except for one has been a challenge really and that was only because it was so hard to see heavy attack telegraphs in whirling snow.

soulclaw

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

soulclaw wrote: »

Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

Demons Souls, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 just called .... they said you lie.

Sorry, using a players death as a method of discovery is just lazy and inept game design. This doesn't mean the encounter has to be easy, but the player should be able to find clues in advance in order to understand what they are getting into.

This is all just part of the overall trivializing of in game death, if you were playing old EQ1 or UO you would not be so casual about having to get killed a few times to learn the fight.

The first time I did this one I was dodging the bubbles as I thought they would hurt me, and Doshia wiped the floor with me quickly. I had no idea what to do.

Oh, and I just ran this fight in EP earlier this evening, and it is still challenging, just to reassure those of you who base your manhood and self image on how you play a video game.

Artemiisia

I dont understand either, why nerf a boss that can perfectly be killed with the right leveled char, just because she is actually the only boss I felt I had to think for myself how to kill, she is so far in 30 levels been the only boss that aint just about move around and cast spells to kill boss.

Gotta say, if they make this game to easy it gets real boring real fast, I come from aoc (ageofconana) and having bosses with actually need for using tactics to kill is fun, and challenging, if they take that out of this game it would be sad.

rager82b14_ESO

soulclaw wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

soulclaw wrote: »

Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

Demons Souls, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 just called .... they said you lie.

Sorry, using a players death as a method of discovery is just lazy and inept game design. This doesn't mean the encounter has to be easy, but the player should be able to find clues in advance in order to understand what they are getting into.

This is all just part of the overall trivializing of in game death, if you were playing old EQ1 or UO you would not be so casual about having to get killed a few times to learn the fight.

The first time I did this one I was dodging the bubbles as I thought they would hurt me, and Doshia wiped the floor with me quickly. I had no idea what to do.

Oh, and I just ran this fight in EP earlier this evening, and it is still challenging, just to reassure those of you who base your manhood and self image on how you play a video game.

BINGO well put.

Neutronium_Dragon

soulclaw wrote: »

Sorry, using a players death as a method of discovery is just lazy and inept game design. This doesn't mean the encounter has to be easy, but the player should be able to find clues in advance in order to understand what they are getting into.

This is all just part of the overall trivializing of in game death, if you were playing old EQ1 or UO you would not be so casual about having to get killed a few times to learn the fight.

The first time I did this one I was dodging the bubbles as I thought they would hurt me, and Doshia wiped the floor with me quickly. I had no idea what to do.

Oh, and I just ran this fight in EP earlier this evening, and it is still challenging, just to reassure those of you who base your manhood and self image on how you play a video game.

I'll second this. "Boss battle" mechanics in MMOs have developed into a demented form of Mastermind; try over and over until you work out the correct ability/timing peg-sequence. Now, that might not be so bad if everyone is looking for a sword-and-spell themed game of Mastermind, but the game is promoted as having a strong storytelling element and fantasy-genre storytelling doesn't involve the protagonist repeatedly dashing themselves against trick-gimmick enemies and dying over and over until they happen to get things just right (except perhaps in certain farcical comedies).

I don't think there's an easy way to resolve that clash of expectations and thematic/gameplay mismatch, but providing some means for the player to work out what a battle will involve ahead of time by in-game methods would help a great deal.

brandon

I'm just glad I beat her before she was nerfed I mean sure I died a few times but at least I didn't need her weaker to beat her.

MercyKilling

Don't think so. Tried to beat her last night in Deshaan with a Redguard Templar sword & board build and had silver bolts in the hotbar.
I could kill all four orbs easily, but every time I turned around...Doshia was fully healed, despite my killing all four orbs. Got sick of fighting her to a standstill, so I left the instance and dropped the mission. To date, I've only been able to beat her with two builds. A siphoning dual weilding nightblade and a two-handed dragonknight build. (No chain pull. Molten weapons and earthen fist and silver bolts.)

It's not nerfed, it just requires a DPS build. If you're not DPS, then you won't be able to do her.

Hodorius

soulclaw wrote: »

Sorry, using a players death as a method of discovery is just lazy and inept game design.
This doesn't mean the encounter has to be easy, but the player should be able to find clues in advance in order to understand what they are getting into.

I understand your point here...
So what about people stop "demanding" a nerf and ask for hints...

KariTR

Korusus wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Korusus wrote: »

The problem with Doshia is that kind of fight being introduced at such a low level. Level 8 is infancy in MMO terms. Those of us that are familiar with typical MMO trick boss fights had an upper-hand because after you die once or twice you figure out the "trick" , but for people who are not used to those kinds of fights or don't have a lot of MMO experience...nothing really prepares you for it in the game before her. I agree that its a good check on your build and equipment...but not at that level when you haven't really had a chance to even play around with your build and figure out what works and what doesn't. Better to do it in the ~ level 20 range when at least you have an opportunity to change your build or find decent equipment.

I don't agree. I hate games that make you level significantly before you meet any challenge. 8 or 80 makes no difference and if the player is completely new to games and mechanics (it isn't just MMOs that have challenging encounters), then they can come back at a higher level.

Besides, at level 8 you already have points to spare if you need to pick up a new skill or two to help combat Doshia.

I died a little when I read the patch notes, but I am not surprised. I bought the game so I could play at launch, knowing if I wait a month or two a lot of things will be made less challenging and so the game would be less fun for me. I am disappointed it is happening so soon though. And believe me, I am below average skill when it comes to game combat.

You're undermining the argument for why Doshia should be a challenge. If the idea is she's a build-check, then saying it doesn't matter because you should already have skill points to spare weakens that argument. Try to imagine you're brand new to MMOs -- maybe you spent your skill points on crafting too early? Maybe you put points into the armor lines too early? Maybe you failed to realize that you level up skill lines by having a skill from each line on your bar or by wearing a piece of each armor too late and you've locked yourself into one skill line? It's unreasonable to expect a fresh level 8 to know all of these things.

Most MMOs require you hit level cap before you are challenged, be glad ESO is different. Just don't hate the devs for nerfing a level 8...did I mention she's level 8?...boss.

Assuming you've fought her, you will know that Doshia is in no way a skill-check. I brought up points merely to highlight the fact that a player who fights Doshia for the first time, should be looking to change something about how they fought, if they died... skills, tactics, keybinds, more dodging, anything ...not calling for the fight to be nerfed because they didn't understand it straight off the bat. Doshia was actually pretty forgiving; she didn't hit so hard that the player doesn't have time to see what the orbs are doing.

Character levels do NOT reflect a player's ability to think on their feet or assess a situation after the fact, yet you seem to be suggesting that it does. You then go on to suggest that 20 levels of an easy ride (OK not your exact words, but same sentiment) before introducing the player to tactical opponents would be the better way. I really don't understand this way of thinking. I am still the same player, with the same cognisance, regardless of whether my character is L8 or L20. Except that by forcing average players through twenty levels of combat that require no thought, I would have been playing a totally different game to the one I am now. Assuming I even made it to level 20 character in the game with no challenge that you appear to envision as the better one.

Any player who is frustrated with a fight, should walk away and come back to fight another day. Not all players are equal (in experience, perception etc.) and people should realise that. The journal suggests the lowest level at which you can take on this fight is L8. Consider that the equivalent of 'hard' in a game that gives you easy, normal. hard options.

KerinKor

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

Asking in zone chat is liable to produce more troll responses than useful ones (if it produces any useful ones at all), and a lot of people avoid zone chat generally (for good reason).

This.

Aside from the fact it's full of RMT spam it's also a good place to get called a 'noob' for asking 'simple' questions. It was pointed out by several people in the first thread on this subject that MANY people had to over-level it which clearly means it was TOO HARD.

Sure, it may be easy for the 'pro' gamers like those in here spouting how easy it is, by the 'pros' are the minority, they forget that.

KerinKor

Hodorius wrote: »

And now... because of people who are too fancy to ask for help she got nerfed.

Actually many would, but don't any more because of the derisive 'noob' comments people who think this is easy throw in their direction .. not unlike in this thread in fact.