I Heard Doshia was Nerfed

dpayne83_ESO

My only question, if this is true, is why? I mean, if she was so hard how am I at my level and current point in the Fighters Guild quest line? Or other people for that matter? Are players not aware there are actual mechanics for that fight? Doshia is a breathe of fresh air for low level encounters because she required more than just "Go in and punch her a bunch of times without fear of dying" to beat her. I died once to her, told myself I wasn't going to whine or quit, and went and beat her on the second try.

Hodorius

Exactly!
Sadly there is a lot of people who expect everything to be easy and boring.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

She was my favorite test. I have 6 chars and I like taking my various builds to her to test em' out. Oh well.

Aett_Thorn

While many of us may find her easy enough once we figured her out, the Devs might have access to more data than we do. There really may have been a bottleneck at her for people of the level the quest was designed for. There may be a decent reason for the nerf.

I also don't know how much of a nerf she got. 5%? 10%? Was it enough to really even notice for most of us?

dpayne83_ESO

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

While many of us may find her easy enough once we figured her out, the Devs might have access to more data than we do. There really may have been a bottleneck at her for people of the level the quest was designed for. There may be a decent reason for the nerf.

I also don't know how much of a nerf she got. 5%? 10%? Was it enough to really even notice for most of us?

It didn't say. It just said she had her powers reduced. But even then if someone was having an issue; how hard is it to just ask in zone for some advice? I mean, that's what the community is for. I have no problems offering advice for encounters I have completed. Heck I would help them fight her if it wasn't for the fact it's a solo instance. And to be honest, she's not even the hardest encounter for the Fighters Guild. I won't mention any names :P.

k9mouse

I am not really happy about that nerf now. This is the 2nd or 3rd time that she got nerfed! Once one figures her out, she is super easy even before the nerf. We want a fun challenge not some hand holding! -.-

Neutronium_Dragon

Asking in zone chat is liable to produce more troll responses than useful ones (if it produces any useful ones at all), and a lot of people avoid zone chat generally (for good reason).

As for the difficulty of Doshia, it seems to be very swingy depending on the character build (and to some extent the luck of the drops to that point), and it isn't particularly reasonable to expect people to go respec just to deal with that one bottleneck encounter (especially since the respec shrine is out of reach for most people at that level).

Seraseth

From what I've heard it was also a far more difficult fight in EP because of the room layout and the clutter in the room. The same fight should never be more difficult for 1 faction because of environment, but they should have fixed the room, not nerfed her.

mutharex

dpayne83_ESO wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

While many of us may find her easy enough once we figured her out, the Devs might have access to more data than we do. There really may have been a bottleneck at her for people of the level the quest was designed for. There may be a decent reason for the nerf.

I also don't know how much of a nerf she got. 5%? 10%? Was it enough to really even notice for most of us?

It didn't say. It just said she had her powers reduced. But even then if someone was having an issue; how hard is it to just ask in zone for some advice? I mean, that's what the community is for. I have no problems offering advice for encounters I have completed. Heck I would help them fight her if it wasn't for the fact it's a solo instance. And to be honest, she's not even the hardest encounter for the Fighters Guild. I won't mention any names :P.

Wait till they get to that part and shortly after it will be nerfed as well

soulclaw

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Applemoth

I was a little sad to hear about the nerf because I spent a good 20 minutes or more fighting her last night without either of us dying (though we both came painfully close at times) before finally giving up. I was looking forward to trying again.

I kind of disagree that all it takes is to figure out the mechanics - I had them figured out pretty quickly but still had difficulty getting all the orbs before they healed her. (But maybe I just suck.)

Today it was quite a bit easier. Her mechanics haven't changed, but she seems to move around a lot less, and the healing orbs spawn less frequently. I would say they nerfed her too far for my liking, but I do understand why they did it.

Hodorius

Doshia is a great encounter!

The second boss you need a brain for.
Charging at her and beating her up... won´t work.
And now... because of people who are too fancy to ask for help she got nerfed.

Everyone should lvl as fast as possible because this happens in every MMO.

rager82b14_ESO

Because some people had trouble with it and just went back when they are over leveled for the content. So *shrugs* not like it matters one way or another. A silly thing for people to get so worked up on.

Lazrael

As an EP player that has killed her a fair share of time, I do think that, at least from the EP side, her mechanics are a little broken. While I could easily figure out HOW to beat her strategically with many different builds, I found myself still being punished more often than I was learning new approaches. That's an indicator of poor design, at least on some level. Whether it be the room layout or the Doshia herself I can't say, as I have pretty strictly played EP. But either way, something needed to change.

soulclaw

Hodorius wrote: »

Doshia is a great encounter!

The second boss you need a brain for.
Charging at her and beating her up... won´t work.
And now... because of people who are too fancy to ask for help she got nerfed.

Everyone should lvl as fast as possible because this happens in every MMO.

When I asked for advice what I got was, after "newb" and "L2P", was "just go in there and hit her harder".

I ended up back here in this forum and found a thread where I learned what I needed to know. Of course, there was an idiot there too who said he just beat her up to win the encounter.

Dahlia_Bristow

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

I don't see that dying and learning from it is a problem. I died twice, too, before the lightbulb went on over my head and realized the orbs were the key to the encounter. Dying a couple of times is not an issue. I see it as part of learning how to deal with a new situation or encounter. If dying twice is your yardstick for a poor design, I'd humbly suggest you get yourself a longer yardstick.

driosketch

The problem with Doshia may have been that she forced you into a certain build at a low level when skill points are limited. I.E. melee plus solar barrage = win in short order; range bow attacks without AoE skill = endless stalemate. I never died on her, but I can see the issue others who made different skill choices by that point might have had.

Loxy37

soulclaw wrote: »

Doshia is a good example of a badly designed encounter. I went in there blind and got killed twice in quick succession because I had no idea what was going on. Any encounter that relies on the player failing multiple times in order to learn the encounter is one where the designer has failed utterly in their goal.

If the designer actually had a clue and knew what to do with it they would have put in a clue or two to let you know what to expect, a journal page or something would have sufficed.

Wrong on all counts. What you have just said is what is wrong with 90% of current mmo players and what caused wow to morph into carebares online!

rager82b14_ESO

Loxy37 wrote: »

Wrong on all counts. What you have just said is what is wrong with 90% of current mmo players and what caused wow to morph into carebares online!

Clueless as ever. Content for all players is how a MMO wins. Wow knows what it is doing when it comes to MMOs. So if this game learns from wow that is a good thing.

Dahlia_Bristow

driosketch wrote: »

The problem with Doshia may have been that she forced you into a certain build at a low level when skill points are limited. I.E. melee plus solar barrage = win in short order; range bow attacks without AoE skill = endless stalemate. I never died on her, but I can see the issue others who made different skill choices by that point might have had.

My character is ranged with no significant AOE. I won by kiting and killing the orbs while chipping away at Doshia. No "endless stalemate" necessary.

Korusus

The problem with Doshia is that kind of fight being introduced at such a low level. Level 8 is infancy in MMO terms. Those of us that are familiar with typical MMO trick boss fights had an upper-hand because after you die once or twice you figure out the "trick" , but for people who are not used to those kinds of fights or don't have a lot of MMO experience...nothing really prepares you for it in the game before her. I agree that its a good check on your build and equipment...but not at that level when you haven't really had a chance to even play around with your build and figure out what works and what doesn't. Better to do it in the ~ level 20 range when at least you have an opportunity to change your build or find decent equipment.

driosketch

Dahlia_Bristow wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

The problem with Doshia may have been that she forced you into a certain build at a low level when skill points are limited. I.E. melee plus solar barrage = win in short order; range bow attacks without AoE skill = endless stalemate. I never died on her, but I can see the issue others who made different skill choices by that point might have had.

My character is ranged with no significant AOE. I won by kiting and killing the orbs while chipping away at Doshia. No "endless stalemate" necessary.

That was a beta encounter. I found I couldn't split attention between her and about three orbs fast enough before they healed her, hence the stalemate. Also couldn't kite her very far as once she got to end of the tunnel to the room, she would reset. I haven't done the fighter guild quest on live yet, so she may have been different since I last fought her

Applemoth

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Content for all players is how a MMO wins. Wow knows what it is doing when it comes to MMOs. So if this game learns from wow that is a good thing.

I agree with you that a low level boss being nerfed is a silly thing for people to get upset about, but have you actually played WoW recently? I played a lot in the BC days, and out of curiosity I recently went back for a month. It is laughable how easy it has become, and for a lot of people easy means boring.

I hope ESO doesn't go down that road. I'm fairly optimistic that it won't, in fact.

EramTheLiar

From what I understand, depending on what Alliance you're in, the fight is either harder or easier due to the terrain. I know my Breton kept getting destroyed, even after figuring out "the thing," because the room she was in was so small it was impossible to keep the one thing away from the other thing in any significant amount of time, and attempting to draw her out into a bigger room usually caused her to reset and run back to her starting position, fully healed.

If I could have got her out of that !@#$% room it would have been a lot easier fight, but there were whirlybits spinning all over the place and I couldn't get to them in time...

So basically it was nerfed for guys like me. You can blame me if you like. I can handle it. :-)

Giraffon

I got her through Ebonheart Pact. She was very difficult and I was 5 or 6 levels higher than she was. The room was tight and the orbs were spawning very quickly, but the worst thing was that she wouldn't follow me out into an open space! The best tip I got (before she got nerfed) was to use an area attack after you hear the gong sound. My area attack destroyed the orbs and that leveled things out a little bit.

The other thing that I didn't realize until I got to this boss monster was that the Fighters Guild quests are primarily solo missions. I wasted a lot of time trying to group with other players after getting beat up. It would have been nice if one of the NPCs would have given us a heads up before joining the guild. For example, maybe someone in the mages guild makes a comment "We're not like those boneheads in the fighters guild. They are always charging into a fight alone!"

For me, when I think "Fighters Guild", I think work together as a group, not solo proving ground. Maybe the should have called it something else?

rager82b14_ESO

Applemoth wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Content for all players is how a MMO wins. Wow knows what it is doing when it comes to MMOs. So if this game learns from wow that is a good thing.

I agree with you that a low level boss being nerfed is a silly thing for people to get upset about, but have you actually played WoW recently? I played a lot in the BC days, and out of curiosity I recently went back for a month. It is laughable how easy it has become, and for a lot of people easy means boring.

I hope ESO doesn't go down that road. I'm fairly optimistic that it won't, in fact.

I have, from what I saw is that leveling, and a lot of end game content was easy, but they had things that was tougher for rewards. Like for looks rewards and such.

If i recall during BC time, it was very tedious. All you had to do was dailies, farm mats for raiding, and pretty much that is it. Wow has tons more content, and all players can enjoy with a push of a button. That is pretty easy, I agree...but there is

challenge mode dungeons
and non LFR content that is not quite as easy.


For me, wow was never really that hard, the hardest part of raiding was getting people to listen, and to manage peoples time. Sure they had content that would kick our butt, but most of the time it was a gear check. Some of the new raid stuff now wow has can be tough, but people have master the game. It is hard to design tough game content, when people are pretty much pros at it.


The true mistake wow has made was. For me

Item scaling.
Arena pvp balance
30+ buttons.

That is for me, I'm the type of guy who feels a class should not be able to almost every thing. In pvp, healers should depend on being protected just as much as the warrior depends on them. Wow classes all of them feel like they can do pretty much any thing and i find that boring.

ethedead

I have to admit knowing now to beat here and beating her was two different things for me. The orbs were obviously the key, this was not hard to figure out (like the second they appeared) my old man ass getting the orbs in that room with x build? Different story. If they've increased the the timer on the orb spell by 5 or 10 % they've done the right thing.

Sarenia

Next nerf will be that boss that insta-kills you if you don't run to the guardians.

MysticAura

It's rather funny that before the nerf, the only threads I could ever see on her, said how she was too strong. So they fix her, and now all you see is people complaining and trying to say that only crappy players would've had an issue with her.

I used a bow and died over and over.. each time trying to get rid of her bubbles and keep my distance. Each time I'd kill the bubbles, they'd be back again. I ended up going back ages later to save my sanity. I love challenges, but in my situation at the time, it didn't feel like a challenge, it felt like futility in action.

I apologize for not being as super l33t as you all say you are. I didn't complain about it though. The second one of her kind I did at level and had next to no issues with. It felt like doshia just wasn't made at level.

Sarenia

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sarenia wrote: »

Next nerf will be that boss that insta-kills you if you don't run to the guardians.

Because people are too stupid to listen to the quest dialogue that tells you to seek their aid, beforehand.

Childish remarks like that just makes the community look worse.

You say childish. I say cynical.

I'm tired of being right about games becoming too easy over time. I want to be wrong.

But I won't be. Feel free to quote this in a year.

And if you think using the word "stupid" in a sentence is bad, you can't have used the internet for very long. You need to thicken your skin up a great deal before you spend much more time in this series of tubes.

KariTR

Korusus wrote: »

The problem with Doshia is that kind of fight being introduced at such a low level. Level 8 is infancy in MMO terms. Those of us that are familiar with typical MMO trick boss fights had an upper-hand because after you die once or twice you figure out the "trick" , but for people who are not used to those kinds of fights or don't have a lot of MMO experience...nothing really prepares you for it in the game before her. I agree that its a good check on your build and equipment...but not at that level when you haven't really had a chance to even play around with your build and figure out what works and what doesn't. Better to do it in the ~ level 20 range when at least you have an opportunity to change your build or find decent equipment.

I don't agree. I hate games that make you level significantly before you meet any challenge. 8 or 80 makes no difference and if the player is completely new to games and mechanics (it isn't just MMOs that have challenging encounters), then they can come back at a higher level.

Besides, at level 8 you already have points to spare if you need to pick up a new skill or two to help combat Doshia.

I died a little when I read the patch notes, but I am not surprised. I bought the game so I could play at launch, knowing if I wait a month or two a lot of things will be made less challenging and so the game would be less fun for me. I am disappointed it is happening so soon though. And believe me, I am below average skill when it comes to game combat.