GAMEBREAKING: Please nerf hirelings ASAP, or get rid of them altogether.

feartheswansb14_ESO

Laura wrote: »

i agree with this. zos is going to find that people will have little to no reason to do there end game content if the best gear is from crafters.

best solution is that some mats HAVE to be found in raids/dungeons

Along with Recipes. Don't forget the recipes!

fantom

It's not pay to win to own multiple accounts, the quality ingredients do not bind. You can just buy them with gold.

Allowing the legendary drops from level 3 just means that there will be no market for these items after a few months and they will be extremely cheap. ALL it does is increase supply of said item. There is no barrier being put up that prevents others from getting the items, especially not a monetary one. That's absurd.

Now, if ZOS actually does want these items to be a factor in the endgame economy, they should definitely nerf hirelings. But this is purely an economic problem, it's not a power problem.

Thete

RNG is a feature in all RPGs, MMO or otherwise. Also, as with anything of this nature you get out what you put in. Why have two characters with hirelings when you can have eight? This also smoothes out the RNG as well.

Magischzwei

I got two Rosin from my bag Today, lv.1 Hireling. This should not be possible.

Suggestion: Quality of improvement items obtained is determined by level Hireling, legendary can only be obtained from max lv. Hireling.

Krym

bummingtheusanub18_ESO wrote: »

even if a yellow drop is less then 1%(by the way the drop rate for me has been between 2-5 %) it is still going to be dropping several times a week at least.

wat

that's not how a RNG works.

Shiva

Legendary drops should be limited by skill level in crafting and perhaps they are. After all, if you have lower than 10 in skill, how would you be able to tell your hireling what to look for? I think that the rarity needs to scale with skill and then it will be fine.

SexyVette07

My solution would be that at level 1 hireling, the highest quality item you can get is green. At level 2, blue. At level 3, purple and yellow. That would require a lot of dedication since rank 3 hireling doesnt unlock until lvl 32 or something like that.

Singular

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Jadeviper1974

Yea, that one glyph that my hireling brings me everyday, that I already have 5 of, is so game-breaking.

Sakiri

feartheswansb14_ESO wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

i agree with this. zos is going to find that people will have little to no reason to do there end game content if the best gear is from crafters.

best solution is that some mats HAVE to be found in raids/dungeons

Along with Recipes. Don't forget the recipes!

No thanks.

Dungeon/raid only recipies *** me off as a collector.

Not everyone wants to run dungeons and raids til our eyes bleed for recipes.

Daverios

Glad to see people finally understanding this. I have spoken directly with Zenimax management (I had to make some noise on another issue) and discussed this.... hopefully it should be changing but we will see.

Lets just say if it changes to one mail per hireling type per account you can blame me. Yes this still gives someone with 2 accounts a slight advantage. But slight not a massive fricking one.

P.s. yesterday alone I got 3 no joke 3 dreugh wax and 2 bs tempers from my 48 chests. That was in one day albeit a lucky one. Happy to post a SS later from home for non believers.

Daverios

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Actually it was no work what so ever and THAT is the issue.

Charwyn

Unholy-molly, stop asking to nerf all the cool things!

You greedy righterous whiners, what is wrong with you all?

Daverios

Charwyn wrote: »

Unholy-molly, stop asking to nerf all the cool things!

You greedy righterous whiners, what is wrong with you all?

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Or did you just not read the post before hitting reply in a knee jerk reaction?

Charwyn

Daverios wrote: »

Charwyn wrote: »

Unholy-molly, stop asking to nerf all the cool things!

You greedy righterous whiners, what is wrong with you all?

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Or did you just not read the post before hitting reply in a knee jerk reaction?

Because I couldn't care less about "oh wow the guy with 2 or more accounts would get more stuff it's not FAAAaaaaaAiir!!!!1".

The hirelings are fun to read, fun to get stuff from and also it is the only reasonable way to get legendary tempers. Otherwise you'd have to actually somehow get 10+ legendary items, deconstruct them and pray for the miracle.

Hirelings are a very nice investment and a very nice lottery.

Also suggesting that only one hireling would be active account-wide is a bad idea, because it limits the freedom of choice for any alts.

sociald100ub17_ESO

Charwyn wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Charwyn wrote: »

Unholy-molly, stop asking to nerf all the cool things!

You greedy righterous whiners, what is wrong with you all?

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Or did you just not read the post before hitting reply in a knee jerk reaction?

Because I couldn't care less about "oh wow the guy with 2 or more accounts would get more stuff it's not FAAAaaaaaAiir!!!!1".

The hirelings are fun to read, fun to get stuff from and also it is the only reasonable way to get legendary tempers. Otherwise you'd have to actually somehow get 10+ legendary items, deconstruct them and pray for the miracle.

Hirelings are a very nice investment and a very nice lottery.

Also suggesting that only one hireling would be active account-wide is a bad idea, because it limits the freedom of choice for any alts.

I agree that it wouldn't be right to limit hirelings to account. I think the best way to deal with this would be to have ingredients have a level value and have some kind of limitations on what level of ingredients you can get from your hireling based on the level of your character.

Attorneyatlawl

sociald100ub17_ESO wrote: »

Charwyn wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Charwyn wrote: »

Unholy-molly, stop asking to nerf all the cool things!

You greedy righterous whiners, what is wrong with you all?

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Or did you just not read the post before hitting reply in a knee jerk reaction?

Because I couldn't care less about "oh wow the guy with 2 or more accounts would get more stuff it's not FAAAaaaaaAiir!!!!1".

The hirelings are fun to read, fun to get stuff from and also it is the only reasonable way to get legendary tempers. Otherwise you'd have to actually somehow get 10+ legendary items, deconstruct them and pray for the miracle.

Hirelings are a very nice investment and a very nice lottery.

Also suggesting that only one hireling would be active account-wide is a bad idea, because it limits the freedom of choice for any alts.

I agree that it wouldn't be right to limit hirelings to account. I think the best way to deal with this would be to have ingredients have a level value and have some kind of limitations on what level of ingredients you can get from your hireling based on the level of your character.

I agree, as well as crafting level of your character. The current system of rolling effortless alts for free extra bags is a poor design.

Rantog

The whole argument against allowing Hirelings to provide the materials to improve gear to the limit.. which .. I might add - according to my estimates (8 hirelings of each type for 9 days now) would require roughly 8 MONTHS to max out a single set of gear...
- This is assuming you don't use up any of the higher 3 tiers on ANY gear prior to your maximum level, which means you're giving up the entire purpose of crafting until that point.

So.. 8 MONTHS of logging in all 8 characters and skipping any improvements to gear beyond Blue, to improve a set of gear on a Single character..

And people think that is unacceptable why?
Because someone didn't RAID for it or similar?

Give me a break.

The concept of division between those who Raid/corporate game, and those who actually PLAY a game into separate categories with regard to what they can accomplish or what gear they can achieve - is a Failing concept.

It rewards players for treating the game like a Job. And aren't we all upset right now because a certain group of people are doing exactly that? Gold Sellers ring a bell?
The only difference is that Most raiders,etc don't spam the chat.

If your purpose in playing the game is to have gear that others can't, because you were willing to log in at the Same Time every 3 days or whatnot, and join 40 other people you barely know - if at all - to do the same dungeon Over, and over, and Over...
There are already games out there for you. We don't need another one.

Rantog

Daverios wrote: »

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

You don't think that if you pay Twice what someone else does, you should have Some kind of advantage?


But lets consider what you're asking for.

Currently, the mats come from two sources.
#1 - Hirelings, which reward a player for Playing the game, checking their game mail on time daily.. basically they're rewarded for showing up often. Particpating.
#2 - Disassembles, which reward a player for killing things, unfortunately - the more willing you are to stand in one place killing the Same thing repeatedly (bosses) the more likely you are to get this reward.

You are suggesting we Remove #1, and put all the favor into rewarding those who stand in one place all day.

What kind of players are doing that right now? You see them in just about every dungeon, parked at the boss, responding before the boss even appears - in perfect unison as a group..
Yep, BOTs.

And they are already abusing the very thing you want to have as the Only option for these mats.

Everyone sees the bots, but they mistakenly assume they are just looting gold and soul gems, because their bags limit them.

They don't think of the bots they Don't see - parked in town, and the ability to mail from Anywhere.

Bots in the dungeon - kill the boss, and loot Everything.
Bot at an NPC - receives junk and jewlery, sells it to fund continued use of the Mail.
Bots at each of the crafting stations - disassemble the other items for materials, including the Improvement materials.



So you want to remove a system that rewards players for coming into the game each day --- and Strengthen the system that rewards Bots and Farmers?

In the name of what? Elitism over someone who plays a more casual style than you think is Deserving of top quality gear?


IMO they should remove all improve mats over tier 2 from disassembly and make it Exclusive to hirelings.
It would keep the materials more rare, and make the ability to obtain them Uniform across all characters (characters, not players).

Rantog

Daverios wrote: »

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Please explain to me, in detail - why you believe it is better to have Bots who farm the high end bosses 24/7 and mail the drops to an alt parked at a crafting station to disassemble for these mats.. (making them the primary source of them soon)
- Is a Better system than allowing everyone to Invest Skill Points to get them randomly (and rarely) from daily checking of the game mail?

That the characters stay level 3 is not a valid argument, since leveling up their specific craft skill + Leveling the character up for skill points = Greater chance at these mats by purchasing the higher tier hirelings.

Baseline + Effort = Greater Reward.
vs
Repetition = All.

ZRage

Rantog wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Please explain to me in detail (as I have done) why you believe lvl 3 alts which are never played and only logged on once per day effecting end game and the in game economy is a good thing. I am dieing to hear all about it.

Please explain to me, in detail - why you believe it is better to have Bots who farm the high end bosses 24/7 and mail the drops to an alt parked at a crafting station to disassemble for these mats.. (making them the primary source of them soon)
- Is a Better system than allowing everyone to Invest Skill Points to get them randomly (and rarely) from daily checking of the game mail?

That the characters stay level 3 is not a valid argument, since leveling up their specific craft skill + Leveling the character up for skill points = Greater chance at these mats by purchasing the higher tier hirelings.

Baseline + Effort = Greater Reward.
vs
Repetition = All.

None of those is good for economy.

period

Ithug

Wow if u really are willing to pay for to account and have enough time to loose to create 16 char with hireling in BS... go ahead.... I DO NOT CARE.

therain93

Consider 2 lines with a 1 degree difference in angle that should otherwise be parallel. That difference is insignificant, perhaps not even noticeable, across short distances. But the further you go, then the farther apart they get. When do we correct the angle?

The OP has made some very good points, both in regards to the technical outcomes (8x hirelings sending materials every 24 hours) as well as philosophical gameplay issues (how do 1-7x mules otherwise contribute to overall gameplay). The interesting thing is, every counter-argument appears to say "not a big deal", i.e. they acknowledge but don't want to change it.

The game is barely 3 weeks old and it hasn't even broken out of the atmosphere -- let's make the course correction now.

tauriel01

<Gasp!!!> Leave my hireling alone! He and his brother are very dedicated assistants. They have risked life and limb on numerous occasions to bring me a few rune stones each day. I'm not entirely sure why he roped his brother into this gig, but it is very convenient. For example, when my hireling nearly drowned in a lake while swimming in armor, his brother was able to drop the runes off in the mail. Besides, how would he feed his family if you deny him his job??!! He needs to make a living too, you know. You guys are heartless!

Malediktus

So with my 8 chars with 3 hirelings each I get 1 legendary temper in average per day. You need 77 for a full set with 100% upgrade chance I think. 7*7 for armor and 4*7 for weapons. If you want to use alternative armor parts and weapons its not even included.
So it will take 77 days for one set with 8 characters.
With 1 character it takes 616 days to get enough tempers. Considering the veteran level with raise every know and then I dont see 77 days for one set as broken.

Rantog

Malediktus wrote: »

So with my 8 chars with 3 hirelings each I get 1 legendary temper in average per day.

This is part of the problem, that is a Very Lucky outcome.
Most of us are pulling about One legendary every 3 days -- which comes out to roughly 8 MONTHS to get enough for a set.


As I have explained, the only ones who would actually benefit from changing hirelings - reducing their production of these mats - would be the BOTS who are already taking Full Advantage of the other methods.


Who suffers with Hirelings being able to rarely give us a material we can actually use?
No one... except the bots setting up to sell those mats in bulk.

Who suffers if Hirelings are nerfed, and the principle means of getting these mats is shifted to farming the same bosses repeatedly?
Everyone who Isn't a Bot.

So I have to wonder... why some people seem to think it is so important that it be changed to Support the Bots and Farmers over those who Play The Game as intended, and rely on a mix of daily login and constant harvesting/looting to provide the mats.

Ithug

@‌Malediktus
Man, i'll just buy those purple to yellow upgrade ...

Also, hirelings are not the only way to get these items....

LadyInTheWater

This is the most ridiculous complaint I've ever seen... even worse than the public AH threads that choke the forums.

The OP, in short, says you can farm upgrade tempers via hirelings, which is true.

He then goes on to say that a player with multiple accounts can farm a ridiculous amount of those upgrade tempers. Which is also true.

Where he lost me is the "gamebreaking" and "pay to win".

First off; It's not gamebreaking any more than raids are. What if PvP'ers said that they should get endgame raid gear via PvP, because it's not fair that only raiders should get that? Or what if crafters said it's not fair that only PvE'ers should get xp (and thus skill points) that they can put into crafting, when all they do is PvE?

There's a balance in the hireling system that the original poster neglected to point out. A balance which, possibly, undermines his argument.

For example, let's say I'm a crafter (let's say a blacksmith for the sake of this example), and I have absolutely ZERO interest in raiding or PvP (which, ironically, is true), and my whole interest is in blacksmithing (which is also true).

Like everyone else, I'd also like to outfit my character with nice gear. I'd like her to have really amazing armor and weapons, but I want it to be made solely by me. The balance that exists is that first I'll have to farm the mats to make a sword. (for this example, we'll say a sword and shield... which happens to be true). Easy enough, right? Then, I craft one with the trait I want (assuming I have the gem for it, which I most likely have). Then, I burn 5 tempers to make it green... then 5 more to make it blue... another 5 for it to be purple... and then 5 more for legendary.

I also wear heavy armor. That's 7 pieces of heavy gear to craft as well. Between the armor and the sword, that's 40 green tempers, 40 blue, 40 purple, and 40 legendary. (I'm not even counting the shield)

Now, in your example, you're running 16 hirelings around the clock, and maybe pulling in 1 legendary temper every other day? It'd take you 80 days to pull in enough tempers just to upgrade all your items from epic to legendary. 80. That's nearly 3 months.

As for me, I'm running one character with hirelings, on one account (because I'm not an alt-stacking powergamer). That's 3 years and 6 months, based on YOUR average, before I gathered enough legendary tempers to upgrade all my gear to legendary.

And you want to NERF this....?

And second:
You call it "pay to win". What exactly are you "winning"? Because, even though it'd take me nearly 4 years to upgrade all my stuff with only hirelings (based on YOUR average), I sure as heck don't feel like I'm "losing".

DewiMorgan

Seems to me that competitive MMO grinders who are worried that other competitive MMO-grinders might do the same exploitative things that they themselves are doing, are scared by this, because oh noes people might catch on and catch up with them!

People who're single-play players are rightfully annoyed by this attitude, because demanding a nerfing of what is about the most cool and fun thing in crafting makes those exploitative whiny nerf-demanding MMO-min-max grinders seem like they are raining on everyone's parade.

Which they are.

Here's the thing. Zenimax will nerf it, if enough people exploit it. They will be tracking the sources and sinks of all items and seeing if their levels are in line with their plans. So if the gold farmers start farming this stuff, then it'll get nerfed, like they did with provisioning (it became too large a source of gold, because gold farmers were exploiting it, and so it got nerfed).

If hirelings don't show up as a similar spike in the stats, then it's genuinely no big deal: spending 25 points per character really *should* get you a sizeable advantage in some fashion, and that's what this gets you... so long as you dutifully log into every single character at least once a day. Which is exactly what they want you do to, to keep you playing, so that works out perfect for everyone involved.

Enjoy your exploit, until the gold farmers get it nerfed for you. Asking for it to be nerfed won't make it happen, even if you talk to the high muck-a-mucks: it has to actually spike the stats.

Laharl_Overlord

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Now, in your example, you're running 16 hirelings around the clock, and maybe pulling in 1 legendary temper every other day? It'd take you 80 days to pull in enough tempers just to upgrade all your items from epic to legendary. 80. That's nearly 3 months.

As for me, I'm running one character with hirelings, on one account (because I'm not an alt-stacking powergamer). That's 3 years and 6 months, based on YOUR average, before I gathered enough legendary tempers to upgrade all my gear to legendary.

And you want to NERF this....?

The proposed nerfs wouldn't nerf you, they would nerf only the people running hirelings on alts they don't level. It only makes sense for the devs to base the hireling loot on either points in hireling or character level (probably points in hireling). This only affects your scenario while you're low level, but crushes the hireling on 7 level 3 alts.