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Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?
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xR3ACTORx✭✭✭Steam is also the only platform that actually provides valid data about player numbers. And as long as Steam are the only one who are providing this numbers steam data is absolutely legit.
That's how things work.Edited by xR3ACTORx on December 10, 2025 9:38AM3 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
Not symptoms but the cause.
In the last year we've had subclassing* and 8v8 BGs forced onto the population. These choices were made in spite of significant resistance from the community and replaced the current modes. Players weren't given the option of keeping what they had before.
Vengeance feels like the same. Not one change or tweak for performance in regular Cyrodiil but 100% of all the effort into more Vengeance campaigns.
*I know you can technically ignore subclassing, but good luck with your pure class in PvP or endgame PvE after the 'balancing' nerfs!Edited by moderatelyfatman on December 10, 2025 9:47AM2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
The people you disagree with will not play the version of the game you agree with.
Think about what it is you're saying for a minute. The answer should be obvious to anyone reading even just what you have written down in this post alone.
Those people will not "flock" over anywhere. They will move on to another game.
Judging by current activity on Vengeance and Gray Host, the people who prefer Gray Host outnumber the ones who don't. And the ones who don't want Vengeance cannot be convinced otherwise. They will just leave. Whether you or ZOS wants that or not is not relevant in terms of whether that is true.
People want what they want because they are who they are and we can't change that.
I will let you draw your own conclusions based on the above whether a company that values it's ability to be profitable would want an outcome that involves an entire player base interacting with one feature to leave.
Is ZOS a company that values profitability? Would a company that values profitability dismiss an entire feature that a portion of the paying player base engages with?Edited by edward_frigidhands on December 10, 2025 1:21PM6 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
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SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »There's nothing changing or dynamic about vengeance, it can't build a base. What kept cyrodiil fresh prior was ironically what people complained about the most, the new sets and game changes introduced. As much as people whine and complain about needing to grind new gear or get ready for the new meta, that is the lifeblood of any mmo.
You can't strip that away and expect the pvp to thrive. If it were viable, ravenwatch or even the level 50 and below campaign for entry level pvpers wouldn't be ghost towns.
Even with the dwindling pop of players as a whole, greyhost stays full in primetime. That should be all the developers need to see.
If I were zos and employed there, I'd make vengeance a part of mym only alongside greyhost, as it needs the double ap incentive, or, make it its own event, and then just have greyhost. Players will still be able to familiarize themselves with cyrodiil during slower hours and as we've seen, any other campaign alongside greyhost will just be one faction zerging the entire map.
This is the part people don’t get, Vengeance to a PvPer removes any reason to play the rest of the game. I don’t enjoy grinding sets, but it’s a time sink that somewhere my brain has accepted and has some form of Stockholm syndrome towards. If I have no reason to do it, then what? I just pvp, but I don’t enjoy that kind of pvp cause it’s no longer uniquely ESO. I’d quit."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations4 -
Poss✭✭✭✭✭How come all my posts complaining about Vengeance and rigorously supporting the future of GH get deleted but people above who are literally trolling in their support of Vengeance have free reign?
All i said was PvP needs to be treated like a trifecta prog. You aren’t going to get Godslayer first run. You need to wear meta sets, practice your rotations and really try for it. People advocating for GH’s removable because they cant complete their Golden Pursuits or their Scout mission without dying to someone who has been playing for 11 years need to understand that their 180k parse means diddly squat in Cyrodiil6 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭That would suggest EU has a much bigger pvp population than NA does, interesting.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
xR3ACTORx✭✭✭How come all my posts complaining about Vengeance and rigorously supporting the future of GH get deleted but people above who are literally trolling in their support of Vengeance have free reign?
All i said was PvP needs to be treated like a trifecta prog. You aren’t going to get Godslayer first run. You need to wear meta sets, practice your rotations and really try for it. People advocating for GH’s removable because they cant complete their Golden Pursuits or their Scout mission without dying to someone who has been playing for 11 years need to understand that their 180k parse means diddly squat in Cyrodiil
Because those people flagged your comments.
I tested it myself. Those people comments were also removed.1 -
xR3ACTORx✭✭✭How come all my posts complaining about Vengeance and rigorously supporting the future of GH get deleted but people above who are literally trolling in their support of Vengeance have free reign?
All i said was PvP needs to be treated like a trifecta prog. You aren’t going to get Godslayer first run. You need to wear meta sets, practice your rotations and really try for it. People advocating for GH’s removable because they cant complete their Golden Pursuits or their Scout mission without dying to someone who has been playing for 11 years need to understand that their 180k parse means diddly squat in Cyrodiil
Because those Vengeance apologists flagged your comments.
I tested it myself. Those people comments were also removed.
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Ryori729✭✭✭I play on Xbox. I was off and on during the day. Most of the time, nothing was happening. Later I got on as AD which was holding the leaderboard and we took a couple of scrolls. I saw ONE person from another alliance. As I was getting off, a few EP came on. Later in the evening I was back on and repaired some walls, and only saw one person. Was just on (noon EST) and appeared to be a handful of people period based on the lack of activity.
But for me here is the bad thing. Some of the problems are still there. I run an alt account on my old Xbox One. I don't expect it to have great performance. But I expect things to kinda work. Did run into another player and they stunned me. Took four tries to break free. I was going to die anyway but it would feel good that when I hit a button something happened so I at least feel like I tried.
I understand that Xbox One isn't the the current target but they still sell the product. In my view if they tested anything on Xbox One they would find all kinds of performance issues rather quickly. I am straying from the OP but it is common on the Xbox One and not too uncommon on the Xbox X that things (AoEs, Animations) are 1-5 seconds behind. In PvP that's an instant death in the normal campaigns. In Vengeance at least when it happens I have a chance to get away.
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fizzybeef✭✭✭✭✭I play on Xbox. I was off and on during the day. Most of the time, nothing was happening. Later I got on as AD which was holding the leaderboard and we took a couple of scrolls. I saw ONE person from another alliance. As I was getting off, a few EP came on. Later in the evening I was back on and repaired some walls, and only saw one person. Was just on (noon EST) and appeared to be a handful of people period based on the lack of activity.
But for me here is the bad thing. Some of the problems are still there. I run an alt account on my old Xbox One. I don't expect it to have great performance. But I expect things to kinda work. Did run into another player and they stunned me. Took four tries to break free. I was going to die anyway but it would feel good that when I hit a button something happened so I at least feel like I tried.
I understand that Xbox One isn't the the current target but they still sell the product. In my view if they tested anything on Xbox One they would find all kinds of performance issues rather quickly. I am straying from the OP but it is common on the Xbox One and not too uncommon on the Xbox X that things (AoEs, Animations) are 1-5 seconds behind. In PvP that's an instant death in the normal campaigns. In Vengeance at least when it happens I have a chance to get away.
PS EU is not better, there were like 10 people per alliance playing in vengeance.
Now after vengeance is off its nobody in vengeance and 1 bar dc , 1 bar ad and 0 bars ep.
Zos knows how to make the game even less populated.0 -
Lucasl402✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Given participation results thus far on PS (forgive my subjectivity here), it is a reasonable query.
The bottom line is super simple and obvious.
If ZOS can't balance and fix bugs in the normal Cyrodiil PvP they've been working on for over a decade they aren't going to be able to make vengeance work properly either.
It all comes back to ZOS should just fix the game they originally created. Vengeance is at best a bait and switch.
You win the internet for the day!
What makes anyone think ZOS can balance and maintain a version of vengeance if they can't do it with the system they've been working on for more than a decade?
Just making a few simple tweaks to Grey Host like limiting heal stacking would have been a lot easier than this vengeance debacle too.1 -
Lucasl402✭✭✭CatoUnchained wrote: »Vulsahdaal wrote: »Just a few minutes ago on PCNA someone from DC GH just came to Vengeance to beg players to come to GH because there was almost no one there. Never thought Id see that, but yeah it happened.
Not saying Vengeance was full, I only seen 30-35 max DC there, but the one looking for help claimed its more than GH?
On PCNA it seems most players from DC and AD have swapped back to Grey Host already. PC NA Grey Host is a solid blue map last couple days. EP maybe didn't get the memo Grey Host is back. But I know one of the main EP guilds on PC NA is still playing vengeance on purpose. It's kind of hard to tell what's going on exactly since to many variables at once here, but by in large it appears that people are going back to Grey Host as soon as they realize they can with very little exception.
Tuesday night prime time PC NA was pop locked all three factions for Grey Host. Less than one bar for all three factions of vengeance, even with double xp and 50 transmute crystals daily from vengeance.2 -
Lucasl402✭✭✭LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
You're not going to make any friends wishing for others to have things they like taken away from them. Why do you care if Grey Host remains anyway? Don't like Grey Host, don't play it. Just like those of us who hate vengeance aren't playing it. For vengeance, on the other hand, there is a lot of legitimate reasons to stop pushing that abomination. Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.2 -
Lucasl402✭✭✭LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Hello, just pointing out that you answered the OP’s question above in bold.
Yep so time to close the thread as it has just devolved into trolling.
So that's what you're doing in this thread? Trying to get it shut down?1 -
Lucasl402✭✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?0 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.2 -
xR3ACTORx✭✭✭I can confirm. On Xbox EU cyro population dropped already during the second vengeance "test". The Midyears Mayhem after this "test" was already much less populated than the MYM at the beginning of the year.
According to my friendlist some players moved on to other games during that test and never returned.
Speaking for myself as someone who enjoyes GH but dislikes Vengeance I admit that I am one of those.
Paying every month for ESO+ just to not be able to play my favorite game mode once a month for a week out of four weeks? No, thanks.
I would really like to return some day to ESO if ZOS gets rid of these periodically returning Vengeance nonsense.
And of course as an DoT Arcanist pvp main I would really want ZOS to make changes to subclassing and make pure classes strong again.
Arcanist really took enough jabs in the past 2 years, but that's another topic.Edited by xR3ACTORx on December 10, 2025 8:33PM1 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.
Sure, but I was never arguing against that. It seems like deflection to claim vengeance is the sole killer of Cyrodiil as if the state of the game hasn't been inherently bad on all fronts. For example, people are STILL to this day debating subclassing's effects on this game both good and bad, months after it has become a permanent thing where we can't reverse course and even more so after the devs statement over re-looking class dynamics. To claim such, you'd have to completely ignore all the other problems that exist in the game.
Again, like I said, before, it's a compounding problem; vengeance can only bad a bad situation even worse. It wouldn't really make a good game(which I doubt many people think the current state of the game is good, especially the pvp crowd), suddenly bad.Edited by xDeusEJRx on December 10, 2025 8:38PMSolo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.
Sure, but I was never arguing against that. It seems like deflection to claim vengeance is the sole killer of Cyrodiil as if the state of the game hasn't been inherently bad on all fronts. For example, people are STILL to this day debating subclassing's effects on this game both good and bad, months after it has become a permanent thing where we can't reverse course and even more so after the devs statement over re-looking class dynamics. To claim such, you'd have to completely ignore all the other problems that exist in the game.
Again, like I said, before, it's a compounding problem; vengeance can only bad a bad situation even worse. It wouldn't really make a good game(which I doubt many people think the current state of the game is good, especially the pvp crowd), suddenly bad.
Sure, but if someone is ambiently frustrated with the state of the game and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good. Which I've seen happen countless times over the last 9 or whatever months that Vengeance-only testing has been a thing.1 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.
Sure, but I was never arguing against that. It seems like deflection to claim vengeance is the sole killer of Cyrodiil as if the state of the game hasn't been inherently bad on all fronts. For example, people are STILL to this day debating subclassing's effects on this game both good and bad, months after it has become a permanent thing where we can't reverse course and even more so after the devs statement over re-looking class dynamics. To claim such, you'd have to completely ignore all the other problems that exist in the game.
Again, like I said, before, it's a compounding problem; vengeance can only bad a bad situation even worse. It wouldn't really make a good game(which I doubt many people think the current state of the game is good, especially the pvp crowd), suddenly bad.
Sure, but if someone is ambiently frustrated with the state of the game and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good. Which I've seen happen countless times over the last 9 or whatever months that Vengeance-only testing has been a thing.
Of course, and I agree with that but like I said, if t was a good game in an ideal situation - these problems wouldn't exist.
However, we have this situation where all these problems do and when you add on another new set of problems and refuse to address the rest, it results in an exceedingly bad game.
That's why I don't think it's good to write off the rest of the problems of the game, that's quite literally how we got to this point in the game.
Hybridization was never finished over the 4 or so years and some classes suffered more than others because of that; similar situation happening with subclassing balance, unaddressed powercreep every patch that has bloated the game with so much power that it seems there is no clear direction, lack of communication and addressing those said problems for too long, and of course removing of people's options with things like no proc and vengeance, are all equally important problems that all contribute to low player counts.Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade2 -
Poss✭✭✭✭✭Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
4 -
ceruulean✭✭✭For the Vengeance to be viable, "unlimited test siege" has to go away so that distance and logistics mean something, and low population bonus needs to exist. Currently the game mode has no way to punish large groups for overstretching or coming unprepared, and there's no incentive to play an underdog faction. I also agree with reintroducing cheap fire ballistas for counter siege.Edited by ceruulean on December 11, 2025 1:47AM2
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Erickson9610✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For the Vengeance to be viable, "unlimited test siege" has to go away so that distance and logistics mean something, and low population bonus needs to exist. Currently the game mode has no way to punish large groups for overstretching or coming unprepared, and there's no incentive to play an underdog faction. I also agree with reintroducing cheap fire ballistas for counter siege.
Unlimited on-demand siege weaponry and tri-pots are a big reason why Vengeance feels convenient to play. Alliances who almost never use siege are given enough encouragement to actually use them, which is a great habit to bring with them into Gray Host.PC/NA — Lone Werewolf, the EP Templar Werewolf
Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak
Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color), Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For the Vengeance to be viable, "unlimited test siege" has to go away so that distance and logistics mean something, and low population bonus needs to exist. Currently the game mode has no way to punish large groups for overstretching or coming unprepared, and there's no incentive to play an underdog faction. I also agree with reintroducing cheap fire ballistas for counter siege.
The siege is cool and convenient, IMO.
But big agree that there needs to be game mechanics in place to combat larger numbers. Lifting the offensive AOE cap is a must and needs to have been done yesterday. And then some sort of like +stats or something per player delta for the underdog side(s) to help even the odds.1
