Maintenance for the week of December 8:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 8
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 8
Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?
JohnRingo
✭✭✭
Given participation results thus far on PS (forgive my subjectivity here), it is a reasonable query.
1
-
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I do think it’s very viable. Not a full replacement to Grey Host though, but as an alternative campaign. I do also think it needs more refining and things added like the fire ballistas (counter siege outside oils is a pain). Veng is very newbie-friendly because it encourages skill and learning game mechanics. That, and sweats can’t use their cheese builds to obliterate someone trying to learn PVP."Buzz Lightyear toy isle shot" Stormcalling/Animal Companions/Assassination PVP build hater
Bring Back Pure Class Build Power13 -
JohnRingo✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »I do think it’s very viable. Not a full replacement to Grey Host though, but as an alternative campaign. I do also think it needs more refining and things added like the fire ballistas (counter siege outside oils is a pain). Veng is very newbie-friendly because it encourages skill and learning game mechanics. That, and sweats can’t use their cheese builds to obliterate someone trying to learn PVP.
That is quite well said. Nothing more from me.3 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For seasonal events, yes.
For regular PvP, no.
I hope ZOS don't kill off Grey Host or Blackreach.3 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭It will become clear when (and if) they keep only two campaigns. But guilds are unlikely to play Vengeance, meaning it won't be popular. One or two bars during prime time, my bet.0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭It will become clear when (and if) they keep only two campaigns. But guilds are unlikely to play Vengeance, meaning it won't be popular. One or two bars during prime time, my bet.
Two bars in primetime on Vengeance is more than pop lock on Live.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!3 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.2 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Given participation results thus far on PS (forgive my subjectivity here), it is a reasonable query.
The bottom line is super simple and obvious.
If ZOS can't balance and fix bugs in the normal Cyrodiil PvP they've been working on for over a decade they aren't going to be able to make vengeance work properly either.
It all comes back to ZOS should just fix the game they originally created. Vengeance is at best a bait and switch.1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalmPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!1 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.5 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That'll need to be something they address come the introduction of Vengeance if they want to boost its popularity. People want to play with/against other people, if the pop meter shows it as being "dead" compared to Grey Host, guess which campaign casuals may gravitate towards? The one with "more" people. (even if in the reality isn't the case, if it's perceived as such through the UI, that's where people will typically go).1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
I mean last night there were (if zone chat is to beleived, and the assumption of an addon being used to grab nearby ally numbers) 74 AD running scroll PCNA while at three bars (not poplock, but EP and DC were lower as it was later in the night), with battles at two other keeps, likely some solo PvE players, solos, and AFK'ers. So it wouldn't surprise me if those numbers were actually hit.2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Edited by Gabriel_H on December 7, 2025 6:20PMPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!4 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭One of the issues with Vengeance is if the enemy has 2 bars and you only 1, you're most likely screwed. You'll just get zerged down. So, it's not just about having 2 bars (or whatever) — everyone must have kinda equal amount of players.
Current Vengeance is all about zerg vs zerg and whoever has bigger zerg, wins. Nothing else matters.1 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.3 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭One of the issues with Vengeance is if the enemy has 2 bars and you only 1, you're most likely screwed. You'll just get zerged down. So, it's not just about having 2 bars (or whatever) — everyone must have kinda equal amount of players.
Current Vengeance is all about zerg vs zerg and whoever has bigger zerg, wins. Nothing else matters.
That's because vengeance is a no skill zerg fest. That's why the PvE'rs like it. If they manage to make vengeance competitive, which is the stated goal, it will equally inaccessible as Grey Host is for the PvE mains.2 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One of the issues with Vengeance is if the enemy has 2 bars and you only 1, you're most likely screwed. You'll just get zerged down. So, it's not just about having 2 bars (or whatever) — everyone must have kinda equal amount of players.
Current Vengeance is all about zerg vs zerg and whoever has bigger zerg, wins. Nothing else matters.
Right, unironically Grey Host might hold an advantage with its lower pop cap, in that the scales can't tip too far in one direction via playercount.
Crossplay (whenever that happens) may help with Vengeance if it helps it hit triple poplock during primetime hours. but if the pop balance is skewed during those times it'll harm retention.0 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
People have pointed it out to him many times.0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
People have pointed it out to him many times.
And? There's also a big label telling you the max number, meaning the increments are irrelevant.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.
Based on what I have seen so far on the forums and their official announcements, I believe they are gathering manipulated data that misrepresents player feedback in favor of a decision they have already made regarding pvp.
I am tempted to think this is a repeat of what they did with battlegrounds to try and turn their 4v4v4 into Marvel Rivals and call it "Elder Scrolls Champions" despite the fact that no one wanted to play what they wanted to provide.
They had to delete the old battleground system to fill the new one according to their own official statement.
What do you think is happening right now that is similar to that action?Edited by edward_frigidhands on December 7, 2025 8:40PM2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.
Based on what I have seen so far on the forums and their official announcements, I believe they are gathering manipulated data that misrepresents player feedback in favor of a decision they have already made regarding pvp.
I am tempted to think this is a repeat of what they did with battlegrounds to try and turn their 4v4v4 into Marvel Rivals and call it "Elder Scrolls Champions" despite the fact that no one wanted to play what they wanted to provide.
They had to delete the old battleground system to fill the new one according to their own official statement.
What do you think is happening right now that is similar to that action?
And you believe that manipulated data includes adding a "fake" cap number, and blurring the "real" numbers rather than simply putting fake numbers in place of the real ones?
Simple question: How many players do you think each alliance has on Live. I'd put it around 100 or so, which makes ZOS 360 stated cap correct, which makes the 900 Vengeance cap correct.
You can muddy the waters with all the tin-foil hats you want, but that doesn't alter basic mathematics.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!3 -
Dalinar4✭I could see it have a place as a sort of training campaign. The skill and knowledge floor for ESO PvP is quite high. Vengeance could act like a "here's what to look for in a build" kind-of thing. A stepping stone to what PvP can be if you will. However, Zos has burned most of my trust with their misdirection and obfuscation with this.0
-
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »One of the issues with Vengeance is if the enemy has 2 bars and you only 1, you're most likely screwed. You'll just get zerged down. So, it's not just about having 2 bars (or whatever) — everyone must have kinda equal amount of players.
Current Vengeance is all about zerg vs zerg and whoever has bigger zerg, wins. Nothing else matters.
Right, unironically Grey Host might hold an advantage with its lower pop cap, in that the scales can't tip too far in one direction via playercount.
Crossplay (whenever that happens) may help with Vengeance if it helps it hit triple poplock during primetime hours. but if the pop balance is skewed during those times it'll harm retention.
I dont think that's true for a console perspective. As someone who rarely played Gray host, low population numbers never prevented any of the side campaigns dying.
That's what killed both Ravenwatch and Blackreach. Gray host just has the luxury of never going below 9 bars, but if it did, population imbalance would hurt it bad
Population imbalance has always been a thing that severely hurts Cyrodiil. because who wants to play when a zerg of 60+ people run a map with only yourself as an opponent? No one, that's why the side campaigns dieSolo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I predict if Vengeance and Grey Host are both placed as an option at the same time then Ball groups will run GH and the Zerg will run V, splitting the populations into uneven alliance numbers. That situation always causes pvp to decline more as players in the least favorite faction dwindle away.0