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Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?
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BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.
Simple question, if its so irrelevant, why blur anything out in the first place?
They likely blurred the y-axis on the performance numbers as they are commercially sensitive, and simply went a bit overboard.
As I said, the graph shows that the Venegance population is 2.67x higher than the Live population. So you can either believe the player cap on Live is 360, which is the ballpark that players have been estimating for years, or not - and if not then by all means tell me what you think the current Live cap is.
Sorry, I don't believe anyone that says don't believe your eyes.
If you're trying to be transparent and present information to the community to build trust, you don't give them something that is hiding information. If its "commercially sensitive" say so or do something other than say "trust us bro", when the trust is already gone and has been for years.Edited by BardokRedSnow on December 8, 2025 3:08PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vengeance is NOT viable without sufficient population to support it, and the past two events have shown that on Xbox NA, there isn't a sufficient population to support it. AD has had the largest presence in Vengeance this time around, and they have only had a single bar's worth of players. None of the other alliances, as far as I am aware, have even had that many.
Vengeance is supposed to be a stripped down version of Cyrodil, and the point of playing it is to give you massive battles. We got that back on the inaugural test, but the past few tests the population just hasn't been there. Either the novelty has worn off and people have decided that they don't like it, or the player population just isn't robust enough to support Vengeance, or both.
And Vengeance is only fun if you have the players there to support it. It doesn't, and likely won't without cross-play.
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Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.
If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.
Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.
You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.
You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm
Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.
/facepalm is right.
We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.
Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:
The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.
Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.
Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.
Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.
Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.
Simple question, if its so irrelevant, why blur anything out in the first place?
They likely blurred the y-axis on the performance numbers as they are commercially sensitive, and simply went a bit overboard.
As I said, the graph shows that the Venegance population is 2.67x higher than the Live population. So you can either believe the player cap on Live is 360, which is the ballpark that players have been estimating for years, or not - and if not then by all means tell me what you think the current Live cap is.
Sorry, I don't believe anyone that says don't believe your eyes.
If you're trying to be transparent and present information to the community to build trust, you don't give them something that is hiding information. If its "commercially sensitive" say so or do something other than say "trust us bro", when the trust is already gone and has been for years.
Way to dodge a simple question. Maybe take your own advice.
Edit: And nor for nothing but you are also denying what you see with your own eyes - being the stated player caps.Edited by Gabriel_H on December 8, 2025 3:13PMPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭People don't realize Vengeance is there in part to get new/casual players into PvP. It's a ramp to the other modes (although some people will most likely stay there). If Vengeance isn't viable, the other modes probably won't be viable either in the long run, because there is no new blood coming in.1
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BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭The point is nobody knows the population numbers truly @Gabriel_H because the chart hides the figures on the left. I’m not dodging your question, your question is simply besides the point. Which is you’re basing your argument off of something that none of us here can be clear on and can only assume and take the word of from Zos themselves.
My signature should adequately explain to you why for me that’s just not something I’m willing to do.
You want to take their statements on good faith, good for you but no one else here has to.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »People don't realize Vengeance is there in part to get new/casual players into PvP. It's a ramp to the other modes (although some people will most likely stay there). If Vengeance isn't viable, the other modes probably won't be viable either in the long run, because there is no new blood coming in.
I disagree, that’s like saying if you don’t like cheese pizza you won’t like supreme. Vengeance is a shallow experience that offers less than Greyhost, there’s less sense of mastery to a game like say, helldivers where you can quickly jump in and play as though you weren’t gone for months vs something you need to practice at and stay up to date on like this, which is why while I enjoy helldivers, I play eso PvP a lot more.
This will vary for some certainly but there’s a reason Greyhost has retained a sizeable population for so long compared to other campaigns.
We play an mmo to level up, get loot, unlock and level skills, to grow.
Where is the growth in vengeance? New players may gravitate to content that is accessible to them from their level, yes clearly, but eso needs a true endgame to retain them. If not for Greyhost and the equivalent past campaign names in its stead, IE proc max level locked faction PvP I would have quit this game ages ago.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »The point is nobody knows the population numbers truly @Gabriel_H because the chart hides the figures on the left. I’m not dodging your question, your question is simply besides the point. Which is you’re basing your argument off of something that none of us here can be clear on and can only assume and take the word of from Zos themselves.
Addons and players have been estimating the number for years, and that number is in the ballpark that ZOS stated. So again: What do you think the current Live player cap is?BardokRedSnow wrote: »My signature should adequately explain to you why for me that’s just not something I’m willing to do.
Tests give data, data informs decision, decisions alter outcomes. All your signature demonstrates is you don't understand that.BardokRedSnow wrote: »You want to take their statements on good faith, good for you but no one else here has to.
No, I want to have an objective discussion about things without the bad faith arguments, subjective feelings, and the dismissal off-hand of anything - despite some of those things being objective reality - that doesn't fit a pre-determined narrative.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Well the moderators are gonna clean up and say there’s too much back and forth in this thread so ima just leave it as an agree to disagree and move on.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0