Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?

Sarannah

Thinking it over: Even if vengeance isn't healthy now(which I doubt), I think ZOS should keep vengeance. As over time this mode may attract a new breed of PvPers to the game while allowing them to stay for that mode, and may allow more casual PvPers to jump into PvP as well. Growing this game's PvP population as a whole, though this may not happen instantly and may take a few months/years.

Maybe rename vengeance in the alliance menu to "Vengeance(Starter PvP)" and grey host to "Grey Host(Veteran PvP)". To make it clearer where new PvPers can go, and allowing players to use vengeance as a stepping stone into hardcore PvP(grey host) if they want to use it like that.

I think vengeance can't really have a steady/permanent playerbase until vengeance itself becomes a permanent campaign. Neither can vengeance attract new players/outside players if it is seen as only a test.

Xarc

Sarannah wrote: »

Thinking it over: Even if vengeance isn't healthy now(which I doubt), I think ZOS should keep vengeance.

vengeance is dead campaign

while greahost has medium pop, this is CYRODIIL concept that is outdated today

BardokRedSnow

aetherix8 wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

I respect you as a poster Xylena so allow me to reframe the discussion. Not long after Vengeance takes its final form, sweats and try-hards will begin to optimize with the tools available to them. They will spent countless hours determining skill synergies and sequencing, efficiencies, build advantages (to the extent possible) and will eventually separate themselves dramatically from the abilities of a new player. Vengeance will find its way to the same place as GH, albeit with a different rule set. This is not optional behavior; it is emergent behavior.

Any persistent PvP ruleset in ESO will inevitably develop a skill gap over time, regardless of its original design intent.
Vengeance will not be an exception. Time investment always converts into advantage.

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it. Given time, dedicated players will always optimize, and optimization always recreates hierarchy. Gray Host isn’t “broken.” It’s simply mature.

Vengeance, if it survives, will age the same way.

I hope for exactly such an outcome. When players optimize and adjust, the game becomes varied and interesting. But for that to actually happen, we need more perks and loadouts, more customization options.

Btw, what you say here is directly undermining the general mantra that Veng is a no-skill zergfest; but ofc there is the potential for skill expression and skill gap in this mode too.

EDIT Vengeance might be more successful in keeping the skill gap in check because of fewer options.

No live service game thrives off fewer options. ESOs mantra was play how you like. Vengeance is the antithesis of that.

Inb4 people complain about gh meta, rn vengeance meta is just one class, nightblade. Nostalgic actually.

BardokRedSnow

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

BardokRedSnow

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

Sarannah

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.

xylena

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

And if you don't play GH during the 4-6 hours of NA prime time? Dead empty ghost town 18-20 hours a day. Of course the tiny and still-shrinking self-selected population of GH is going to keep playing GH, but those players are not enough for an active functional Cyrodiil. Not even close.

I'll bet my account that all of GH could quit the game and not be missed, but they won't all quit, the majority of GH players would simply switch to Vengeance and keep doing what they do. You'd have a vocal minority screaming for their proc sets and ball groups back like the people who want those broken buggy messy incoherent unpopular 3-way BGs back.

BardokRedSnow

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

And if you don't play GH during the 4-6 hours of NA prime time? Dead empty ghost town 18-20 hours a day. Of course the tiny and still-shrinking self-selected population of GH is going to keep playing GH, but those players are not enough for an active functional Cyrodiil. Not even close.

I'll bet my account that all of GH could quit the game and not be missed, but they won't all quit, the majority of GH players would simply switch to Vengeance and keep doing what they do. You'd have a vocal minority screaming for their proc sets and ball groups back like the people who want those broken buggy messy incoherent unpopular 3-way BGs back.

Sorry that people have jobs but vengeance is even deader than GH in the day.

Also this didnt prove true during the first week, majority of us stopped playing, you were playing with pvers and a few gh goers sprinkled in.

Idk I can only humor so much cope, no amount of gaslighting will fool the statistics the devs will be reading.

BardokRedSnow

Sarannah wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.

Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...

You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.

Sarannah

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.

Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...

You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.

You do realize I have played WoW for many years, even maintained a high arena rating(2vs2) for multiple expansions. From BC to Pandaria.

We're talking about max level PvP though, and in WoW you can just jump in PvP at max level and be on a mostly similar level to other players. Min-maxing there does make a difference, but not so much that it offsets a playerskill difference, basically a 5-10% difference tops when min-maxing. Yes, WoW has more skills accessible at all times versus ESO's 5 skills + 1 ultimate. But that is just learning how each game functions. Having more skills available on an equal character does not mean the PvP is harder to learn/understand, once you know all the skills available you are good to go. Whereas in ESO after you reach maximum level you first need to gear up(collect gear), make/find a build(including gather skillpoints), and learn the build. In WoW you only learn the build. UI-wise and add-on-wise both games are very similar.

In WoW you can reach max level and go PvP in fair/equal battles right away, in ESO you can reach max level go PvP and will be one-shot over and over. WoW has more skills but a fair characterbuild system, ESO has less skills but an unfair characterbuild system.

Time to kill in vengeance is similar WoW's PvP, both are accessible right away. Just check some youtube PvP videos from WoW, and you can easily see this to be true. No one-shots anywhere, ever!

Just a rough but true estimate: In WoW your power is 90% base character(leveling/skills from leveling), 5% gear, and 5% playerskill. In ESO your power is 5% base character, 85% gear(build), 10% playerskill. As you can see with ESO, without the gear/build you are getting nowhere close to a similar level as the top PvPers. Even if those top PvPers aren't even good PvPers.

So yes: I can pick up WoW, level to max level, and am PvP ready right away(except for learning how to play the character).

reazea

Iriidius wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

But im claiming vengeance wont be populated if it becomes a option and this will make the most vengeance enthusiasts play GH.

This is wrong, most of the players in Vengeance are casuals. The pvp player base is very small in comparison. Today was proof you're wrong on this. Both GH and Vengeance were open and Vengeance still had plenty of zergs on all sides (PCNA). I don't know why people are obsessed with comparing bars when it's already been established that the max player count is way higher than GH.

And no the bonuses are not the only reason it's still popular currently. When a new player joins cyro and they first join GH (because that's the only one that ever has players normally) they will be stomped with zero chance of winning. But if they join Vengeance they'll actually be able to play the game and experience pvp and not die in two seconds to some max CP player running meta gear and skills or a ball group.

Yes a dead campaign = no new players. But that is because they're all the same campaigns. The only difference is one no cp campaign and one below level 50. But the below level 50 one is dead because there's not enough players to sustain it and people don't bother making new toons just to rejoin it unless it's to troll real new players.

With Vengeance at least it's a different way to play pvp that is easier for the casual or new player to play. Believe me when I say a casual looks at GH and wants to stay far away from it. It's just not good pvp for them because pve and pvp are vastly different.

Currently the only way as a new player to enjoy pvp is BG's because they at least have a below level 50 version that is populated some of the time.

So yeah keeping Vengeance is fine and not going to be a problem for GH, as you said most hardcore pvp players will stay in GH. It could sustain itself if the pvp community would stop being so toxic towards the idea, the unique part of Cyro is the siege and capturing stuff, not the pvp gameplay. And Vengeance allows a way bigger player cap due to the reduction of sets and problematic calculations. Which in turns allows for better attacking and defending moments.

Time will show who is right, im just saying 11 years people who began to play pvp started in GH and adapted instead of playing training wheel pvp.
I believe this will continue.

11 years people surely didn’t started to play PvP in GreyHost nor any other cp campaign because neither GreyHost nor cp existed 11 years ago.
If you mean they started in a campaign with builds instead of templates this is true but 11 years ago everyone was a new player and you could type lfg and play Pickupgroup against other PuGs consisting of new players so you didn’t had to be good.
Nowadays even having good build isn’t enaugh to have fun in GH/BR because PuGs are dead, soloplay is dead and premades will don’t invite you in group for beeing a zergling (even when you never play in group or attack outnumbered players) and unskilled and zerg you themself on sight as „revenge“.

Everyone has to learn the same things to be decent at PvP. Everyone starts from 0 and goes from there. The main complaint seems to be it's too hard. That complaint doesn't register for those who have put in the effort and made it work for them, and it shouldn't.

"There is no try, only do" - Yoda

reazea

Iriidius wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.


The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.

If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)

It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.

Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.

As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.

Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.

Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.

If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.

Im happy about all that.

And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.

Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.

Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.

Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.

And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.

If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?

Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.

Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.

Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.

Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.

But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.

Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.

I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.

Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.

I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.

Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.

Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.

The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.

Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms

To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.

And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?

I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.

Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.

Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.

Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.


The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.

If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)

It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.

Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.

As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.

Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.

Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.

If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.

Im happy about all that.

And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.

Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.

Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.

Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.

And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.

If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?

Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.

Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.

Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.

Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.

But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.

Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.

I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.

Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.

I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.

Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.

Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.

The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.

Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms

To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.

And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?

I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.

Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.

Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.

Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.

Sure, but I was never arguing against that. It seems like deflection to claim vengeance is the sole killer of Cyrodiil as if the state of the game hasn't been inherently bad on all fronts. For example, people are STILL to this day debating subclassing's effects on this game both good and bad, months after it has become a permanent thing where we can't reverse course and even more so after the devs statement over re-looking class dynamics. To claim such, you'd have to completely ignore all the other problems that exist in the game.

Again, like I said, before, it's a compounding problem; vengeance can only bad a bad situation even worse. It wouldn't really make a good game(which I doubt many people think the current state of the game is good, especially the pvp crowd), suddenly bad.

Sure, but if someone is ambiently frustrated with the state of the game and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good. Which I've seen happen countless times over the last 9 or whatever months that Vengeance-only testing has been a thing.

If players are too frustrated to have much fun and are only stuck in routine than Vengeance breaking that routine is doing them a favor.
So why do we blame Vengeance only for freeing them of that routine and not also the problems in GreyHost that frustrated them?
Is keeping players that lost fun playing stuck in routine a good thing?
Maybe it helps keep the player numbers up for a while but players should play for fun not for routine.
If breaking their routine for a week is enaugh to make them quit than holidays without PC or work overtime or broken wrist or any other routine break would have done the same.
Maybe ZOS should fix the things making GH players frustrated instead of stop Vengeance tests to keep them stuck in routine.

Vengeance isn't helping anyone in any way. If vengeance becomes mandated ESO PvP dies, and the rest of the game either dies or goes into a never changing maintenance mode. It'll be like Skyrim with other people running around doing the same things they've already done 1,000 times before.

reazea

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

It sure was. Now ZOS is refusing to even try to fix Grey Host, which was an original part of the game from the beginning.

So a few points here.

First, ZOS should fix the PvP they originally designed into the game. They can fix it. It might take some effort or investment they don't want to make, but it can be done. They've done it before. They can do it again. So ZOS stating they're not even going to try fixing their product going forward is a vendor saying they're selling a product they're not going to support. This is obviously a highly self destructive business and public relations decision.

Second, if ZOS can't make their premier PvP work smoothly and reliably as it is now, they're not going to be able to make some other new system work smoothly and reliably either.

And third, if the last three days are any indication, essentially nobody will play vengeance with or without an alternative. The last three nights prime time PC NA has been pop locked for Grey Host and vengeance hasn't even filled one bar of population. Almost nobody likes vengeance.

Any investments into vengeance should be ceased immediately to save resources so ZOS can invest in actually fixing their game as opposed to creating something totally different. I mean, what's happened to all those "THEY'RE WORKING ON IT!" explanations and commitments to the player base?

^ This. I'm flabbergasted that ZOS is now selling a product they've committed to not supporting. It's a mystifying business decision. I can't imagine it working, but judging by some of the posts on the topic, who knows.

reazea

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This isn't it's final form so it's hard to say. No new stuff is being added but they're going to be looking at its damage/healing balance.

If they can't fix Grey Host they can't develop a new system that will work properly either.

How is this self evident truth not obvious to everyone?

reazea

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

Everyone climbs a ladder one rung at a time. Climbing a short ladder takes the same effort as a tall ladder, it just takes longer to climb a taller ladder is all.

reazea

Poss wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

And yet Cyrodiil was hugely popular on release and Vengeance is dead. So what’s your point?

I saw more than one bar population on vengeance the first two days this time around. After that I haven't seen more than one bar on any faction at any time. Meanwhile GH is pop locked every day prime time and earlier on weekends, same as usual.

Even with the added rewards from vengeance most people still prefer GH.

BardokRedSnow

Sarannah wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.

Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...

You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.

You do realize I have played WoW for many years, even maintained a high arena rating(2vs2) for multiple expansions. From BC to Pandaria.

We're talking about max level PvP though, and in WoW you can just jump in PvP at max level and be on a mostly similar level to other players. Min-maxing there does make a difference, but not so much that it offsets a playerskill difference, basically a 5-10% difference tops when min-maxing. Yes, WoW has more skills accessible at all times versus ESO's 5 skills + 1 ultimate. But that is just learning how each game functions. Having more skills available on an equal character does not mean the PvP is harder to learn/understand, once you know all the skills available you are good to go. Whereas in ESO after you reach maximum level you first need to gear up(collect gear), make/find a build(including gather skillpoints), and learn the build. In WoW you only learn the build. UI-wise and add-on-wise both games are very similar.

In WoW you can reach max level and go PvP in fair/equal battles right away, in ESO you can reach max level go PvP and will be one-shot over and over. WoW has more skills but a fair characterbuild system, ESO has less skills but an unfair characterbuild system.

Time to kill in vengeance is similar WoW's PvP, both are accessible right away. Just check some youtube PvP videos from WoW, and you can easily see this to be true. No one-shots anywhere, ever!

Just a rough but true estimate: In WoW your power is 90% base character(leveling/skills from leveling), 5% gear, and 5% playerskill. In ESO your power is 5% base character, 85% gear(build), 10% playerskill. As you can see with ESO, without the gear/build you are getting nowhere close to a similar level as the top PvPers. Even if those top PvPers aren't even good PvPers.

So yes: I can pick up WoW, level to max level, and am PvP ready right away(except for learning how to play the character).

The same is true for eso, you can easily get someone leveled and geared for PvP without even a need for addons in a very short period of time, by someone that at least knows basics of building for general end game PvP. Much easier than wow. And that’s what Greyhost is, end game high end PvP. You basically just proved my point exactly with this statement.

You being a wow player for years doesn’t make you anymore right than Xylena who has been playing for years also, you are not a new player. You have the knowledge and know how to do this alone conceptually, a day one new wow player does not. It’s not a new concept you can find post after post of players complaining about it.

And lol the UI setup and addons is not similar at all biggest difference is most players there actually do use macros while eso it’s bannable specifically because wow has so much going on in comparison:
That people feel the need to use those to play the game well is another point. People complaining about eso PvP would be in hell trying to switch to WoW

I’m not talking about with additional help or had holding or a vet getting a new toon ready for PvP but a fresh newbie to both games, WoW is much more daunting than eso

BardokRedSnow

Unless any of yall here really wanna pretend a game that you have to learn to use macros for because you’re pressing so many hotkeys for so many different skills doesn’t have a bigger learning curve than eso with only six skills on each bar and now sometimes only ONE bar lol. What are we even talking about.

Learning curve is more than just having the levels and build and even that is not comparable. Eso does not compare to wow in that regard, not in the slightest. No macros needed, and addons are just nice to have not necessary to be competitive. You can play it with a friggin Xbox controller lol. Stop it.

Which I mean you technically can play wow on one too but there’s not a controller ui like with eso, it’s not designed for it like eso is. It’s far simpler.

BardokRedSnow

You can find an article or post for just about anything but if people are confused because they have never played wow, ones like these are very common, can look into it yourself. This expresses the point I’m making better:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/why-people-do-not-pvp-in-wow-a-comprehensive-post/2019938

Y’all got it good here while trying to strip a good thing away.